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Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.08 22:07:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Lyn Farel on 08/08/2011 22:07:43
Redirected from this discussion.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Quote:
What makes you think we do not work from within?

Oh, I'm sure you do. I just don't think it compares well to the vast majority of what your pilots do otherwise.


Please excuse me if this is not obvious, but what do they do ?

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Neither you nor me will change our minds, as we are both loyal to our nations. So I guess we can skip it?


Actually, even if my rank might say otherwise, as I said several times before, I do not serve petty factionalism and nationalism. If I could, I would be at the same time on a lot of other fronts either.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Quote:
Please know that even if we are a minority on the Council to think so, not everyone currently condone these operations



This is exactly what confuses me about your (personal) actions. You, personally, do not wish for the enslavement of my people. You, personally, do wish for a peaceful end of this war, a situation in which both of our nations can coexist peacefully. This is good, and I applaud this desire (which I share, even though I consider it an unlikely outcome at this point). A number of people around you - a majority, even? - your corpmates, are actively working against this goal. Still you defend them, you stick to them.

Why?


They do not work against this goal. Your logic is problematic. They only choose other ways of doing so, in favor of pragmatism. Their end goal is the same eventually.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Quote:
I think you are dreaming. You sometimes sound like someone, otherwise reasonable either, that is absolutely looking for a casus belli, no matter its coherence.


I do not need a case for war. We already are at war. Thousands of people die in this war, every day. People are enslaved and liberated. The war is already upon us - there is no need for a case.


The Republic, and the TLF are at war. Electus Matari is not.

Mizhara Del'thul
Minmatar
Lutinari Syndicate
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.08.08 23:06:00 - [2]
 

Originally by: Lyn Farel
The Republic, and the TLF are at war. Electus Matari is not.


The entire Matari people have been at war for centuries, since the initial act of mindless and vile aggression by the Empire. The Militias are hardly the only ones engaged in a daily war against the continued and baseless aggression, and the war will not cease while it's kept up by the Empire. There's only one end to this war, and that is the freedom of the Matari. Once that is achieved, and Empire forces cease to attack Tribe space and people... then there can be a peace.

Arnulf Ogunkoya
Minmatar
The Causality
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.08.08 23:12:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Lyn Farel
Edited by: Lyn Farel on 08/08/2011 22:07:43
The Republic, and the TLF are at war. Electus Matari is not.


Our charter reads as follows:
Quote:
We, the members of Electus Matari, have chosen to join an alliance of independent corporations loyal to the Minmatar Republic.

We seek to strengthen and develop the Republic, in order to support her people, her government, and her military forces.

We will defend her citizens, her assets, and her territory against all enemies and usurpers, foreign and domestic.

We advocate the right of all Minmatar to live in freedom and according to the customs of their clan and tribe, including those currently in foreign captivity.

We aim to be professional and efficient in what we do. We educate our members in the ways of the capsuleer, and provide a place for experienced pilots to use their expertise for the Republic on their own volition.

Out of respect to those who have served under Amarrian rule, no Amarrian is allowed in a position of authority over any of us without that member's express permission.


I think this makes it quite clear why we consider you to be enemies. Certainly while you are on active crusade service.

Mitara Newelle
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.09 01:19:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Mizhara Del'thul
There's only one end to this war, and that is the freedom of the Matari. Once that is achieved, and Empire forces cease to attack Tribe space and people... then there can be a peace.


No, the end of the war will come when you and the rest of your terrorist friends are in shackles, and the unfortunate souls living under Shakor's tyranny are brought under Imperial protection. Then the true healing can begin, as they take their first steps towards enlightenment.

Mizhara Del'thul
Minmatar
Lutinari Syndicate
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.08.09 01:30:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Mitara Newelle
Originally by: Mizhara Del'thul
There's only one end to this war, and that is the freedom of the Matari. Once that is achieved, and Empire forces cease to attack Tribe space and people... then there can be a peace.


No, the end of the war will come when you and the rest of your terrorist friends are in shackles, and the unfortunate souls living under Shakor's tyranny are brought under Imperial protection. Then the true healing can begin, as they take their first steps towards enlightenment.


Well, thank you for proving the point.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.09 02:02:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Raze Valadeus on 09/08/2011 02:03:23
Originally by: Mizhara Del'thul
Originally by: Lyn Farel
The Republic, and the TLF are at war. Electus Matari is not.


The entire Matari people have been at war for centuries, since the initial act of mindless and vile aggression by the Empire. The Militias are hardly the only ones engaged in a daily war against the continued and baseless aggression, and the war will not cease while it's kept up by the Empire. There's only one end to this war, and that is the freedom of the Matari. Once that is achieved, and Empire forces cease to attack Tribe space and people... then there can be a peace.


Miss Del'thul,

Honestly, please check your facts before you spout nonsense. The current war was started by the Elder Invasion and the Matari uprising, not the Empire. I do not deny that generational slavery pushed the Matari people toward rebellion, but to claim that the war was started by "mindless and vile aggression" on the part of the Empire is farcical. The Matari struck against the Empire and the Empire responded.

Also, you will notice that the stated purpose and agenda of most Matari corporations and pilots isn't just the freedom of the Matari but the absolute and complete destruction of the Empire. You may also notice that the Matari have been every bit the aggressors as you claim the Empire has been.

You continually point all blame at the Empire for this war when both sides are at fault for its continuation. The cessation of hostilities from both sides is necessary to achieve peace, not just one side.

Mitara Newelle
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.09 02:09:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Mizhara Del'thul
Originally by: Mitara Newelle
Originally by: Mizhara Del'thul
There's only one end to this war, and that is the freedom of the Matari. Once that is achieved, and Empire forces cease to attack Tribe space and people... then there can be a peace.


No, the end of the war will come when you and the rest of your terrorist friends are in shackles, and the unfortunate souls living under Shakor's tyranny are brought under Imperial protection. Then the true healing can begin, as they take their first steps towards enlightenment.


Well, thank you for proving the point.


I'm not proving a point, I'm correcting you. You're welcome.

Mizhara Del'thul
Minmatar
Lutinari Syndicate
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.08.09 02:18:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Raze Valadeus
Edited by: Raze Valadeus on 09/08/2011 02:03:23
Originally by: Mizhara Del'thul
Originally by: Lyn Farel
The Republic, and the TLF are at war. Electus Matari is not.


The entire Matari people have been at war for centuries, since the initial act of mindless and vile aggression by the Empire. The Militias are hardly the only ones engaged in a daily war against the continued and baseless aggression, and the war will not cease while it's kept up by the Empire. There's only one end to this war, and that is the freedom of the Matari. Once that is achieved, and Empire forces cease to attack Tribe space and people... then there can be a peace.


Miss Del'thul,

Honestly, please check your facts before you spout nonsense. The current war was started by the Elder Invasion and the Matari uprising, not the Empire. I do not deny that generational slavery pushed the Matari people toward rebellion, but to claim that the war was started by "mindless and vile aggression" on the part of the Empire is farcical. The Matari struck against the Empire and the Empire responded.


The Matari struck at an Empire that continued the aggression and enslavement in Republic space, and kept a sizable chunk of Matari people enslaved. This is a continuation of the war that's been raging for centuries since the baseless and vile attack during the Day of Darkness, not an initial strike. It was a move to save a tribe from extinction. A tribe almost made extinct by the Amarrian aggression.

The Matari has struck, yes... and every strike has been aimed at the liberation of the people you hold enslaved through means of aggression so vile and inhuman that it sickens me. There's no point in denying it. I am certain I can provide footage and proof of Empire aggression from long before the Elder Fleet freed an almost extinct tribe, and that's not even mentioning the hundreds of years of aggression before that.

Quote:

Also, you will notice that the stated purpose and agenda of most Matari corporations and pilots isn't just the freedom of the Matari but the absolute and complete destruction of the Empire. You may also notice that the Matari have been every bit the aggressors as you claim the Empire has been.

You continually point all blame at the Empire for this war when both sides are at fault for its continuation. The cessation of hostilities from both sides is necessary to achieve peace, not just one side.


A few corporations and pilots will be beyond reason, yes. Take your own PIE as an example. Should I consider them reason enough to advocate the destruction of your entire people and Empire? I could, and it would be within reason. The fact remains. You hold our people in bondage. This alone is an act of unforgivable aggression, and the war will never cease while this holds true. Peace can only come after this atrocity is made right.

Myxx
Atropos Group
Posted - 2011.08.09 02:29:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Myxx on 09/08/2011 02:32:17
I used to be of the mind that the republic and empire could co-exist if the Empire were to cease aggression and release all of the matari they hold enslaved.

Now I'm just sort of the mind that the Empire just needs to cease to exist altogether. Its kind of mind baffling how some can still think they'll ever totally break the republic.

The Caldari and Gallente problem could still be resolved. The Matari and Empire problem though... seems inflexible at this point.

Aldrith Shutaq
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.09 03:08:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Aldrith Shutaq on 09/08/2011 03:58:11
Dear Minmatar Republic,

Rest assured we have received your multiple letters/rocks/autocannon shells of complaint, and are currently working towards meeting your requests. Your people will be returned to you in two to three business centuries. We apologize for any inconvenience this delay may cause.

In the meantime, we would like to thank you for your patience as we sort out our nation, which must go through a complete overhaul, including, but not limited to: religious reformation, social re-stratification, institutional examination, political realignment, economic reform, cultural reform, philosophical revolution, sexual revolution, aristocratic ethical re-education and abolition. Unfortunately, we have only just begun work on these projects.

Please do not burn down our houses.

Thank you,

Aldrith Shutaq
Something-Master of a Knighthood of Some Stuff

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.08.09 05:19:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Arkady Sadik on 09/08/2011 05:34:41
A fancy discussion to wake up to. And now I have my own IGS thread with my name on the title. Flattering.

Originally by: Lyn Farel
Please excuse me if this is not obvious, but what do they do ?


This was part of the discussion regarding KotMC's activities; my claim was that, while they might be also working for a change from within, the vast majority of their actions are fighting a war for the Empire.

KotMC are among the top corporations (3-4) of the Amarr Militia regarding kills of your enemies. You are currently the top corporation regarding "victory points" in the last week. I have seen your pilots deep within Metropolis, shooting peaceful industrialists and miners, fighting anti-pirates, and even the occasional militia pilot. Additionally, KotMC is among the leading corporations publically advocating cooperation between the Amarr and the Caldari, supporting the Caldari in their war against the Federation.

Congratulations to all of this. It's not easy to be one of the best. At the same time, I see two or three pilots among your ranks arguing on IGS or The Summit for change, sporadically. I am sure there is a lot of work happening that no one sees, but I have serious trouble believing that it compares at all to what else you do.

The fact of the matter is that the KotMC is currently among the greatest threats to the safety and well-being of the Minmatar people. At the same time, you seem able to convince all sorts of people that you are somehow "not that bad" when it comes to Amarrians. Again, a very impressive act of propaganda - as your CEO says, I am not going to go so far as to say we also fight them by undermining their capsuleer through social interaction, but our practices in this regard are not without reason.

Originally by: Myxx
I used to be of the mind that the republic and empire could co-exist if the Empire were to cease aggression and release all of the matari they hold enslaved.


At this point, this would more or less break the Republic. We do not have the resources to nurture all of our people. Releasing the most indoctrinated ones already was a masterful strike and put quite some strain on us.

I really do not know what they could do these days to bring lasting peace. I guess a dedicated plan for the slow release of our people (starting with the most recently ones enslaved, not the other way around) might work to some extent, but I do not see that happen. Especially as we are still fighting daily with slave raiders from the Empire, some of which bear the colors of the Imperial Navy, despite this supposedly being illegal. Centuries of oppression and a hundred years of peace with no results have made a lot of my people not believe in peace anymore.

So while I applaud the desire of some progressivists, including those few within the KotMC, as mentioned in the other thread I'm afraid that the fruits of that labor will be brought in only when it is too late for either of our nations.

We're both simply working on making sure it is not our nation that it is too late for.

Originally by: Aldrith Shutaq
Please do not burn down our houses.


Please have your empress contact the Republic government for the terms of your unconditional surrender.

Myxx
Atropos Group
Posted - 2011.08.09 05:43:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Arkady Sadik


So while I applaud the desire of some progressivists, including those few within the KotMC, as mentioned in the other thread I'm afraid that the fruits of that labor will be brought in only when it is too late for either of our nations.

We're both simply working on making sure it is not our nation that it is to late for.

Please have your empress contact the Republic government for the terms of your unconditional surrender.


I should make it clear that I am certainly not an anti-war, progressive type. At least, not in relation to the Empire or Republic. I see a problem that is larger. I see war as a problem that hinders scientific progress that would benefit humanity as a whole.

I say this as someone who is a resident proper of no single nation and an employee loyal to no singular faction. I gave that up a long time ago.

The only thing that prevents all out war, as has been demonstrated in the past, is CONCORD. That, however, is only a stopgap put in place ages ago in hopes that the sides involved could work things out peacefully.

Though, it seems to have failed with the state of decline between the Republic and Empire. CONCORD's final failure will come when the Caldari and Gallente can no longer seem to ever come to a peaceful resolution. They're not there, yet. I only hope they can resolve that because if they cannot, it spells certain disaster for the Republic.

I've said it before and ill say it again, The Republic and Empire should just get it overwith and kill each other without restrictions. It is based upon thus that I would have to side with the Republic in that the Empire may just need to cease to exist fully.

Aldrith Shutaq
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.09 07:05:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
I have seen your pilots deep within Metropolis, shooting peaceful industrialists and miners, fighting anti-pirates, and even the occasional militia pilot.


Alright, now this is something I really must inquire about. If this is true, please send the Knighthood leadership a message with the names of the victims, names of the offenders, and documented proof of any wrongdoing committed. We take allegations of piracy and immoral conduct seriously and strive to correct ourselves whenever an infraction of our RoE is made.

Of course, if the peaceful industrialists, miners, and anti-pirates you reference are really supporters or members of the TLF, Republic paramilitary organizations, or have otherwise attacked Imperial forces without provocation, that would change things I believe. Going over our kill records for the past few weeks, this seems to be the case. That was one unfortunate Vigilant, by the way. Still though, please send in any formal complaints you have.

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
Please have your empress contact the Republic government for the terms of your unconditional surrender.


Now that wasn't nearly as funny as my request.

Mirabi Tiane
Posted - 2011.08.09 07:06:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Mitara Newelle
No, the end of the war will come when you and the rest of your terrorist friends are in shackles, and the unfortunate souls living under Shakor's tyranny are brought under Imperial protection. Then the true healing can begin, as they take their first steps towards enlightenment.

Correct me if I am wrong, but isn't this woman Aldrith Shutaq's wife?

Aldrith Shutaq
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.09 07:08:00 - [15]
 

Yes she is! She is a bit hard on the edges, but really the most lovely woman once you get to know her.

Rodj Blake
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.09 07:25:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Aldrith Shutaq

In the meantime, we would like to thank you for your patience as we sort out our nation, which must go through a complete overhaul, including, but not limited to: religious reformation, social re-stratification, institutional examination, political realignment, economic reform, cultural reform, philosophical revolution, sexual revolution, aristocratic ethical re-education and abolition. Unfortunately, we have only just begun work on these projects.



Religious reformation?

Social re-stratification?

Institutional examination?

Political realignment?

Economic reform?

Cultural reform?

Philosophical revolution?

Sexual revolution?

Aristocratic abolition?

I suggest you contact me with an explanation. Otherwise it might lead to the conclusion that you've crossed a line.


Aldrith Shutaq
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.09 07:27:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Aldrith Shutaq on 09/08/2011 09:26:47
It is called satire, Admiral. You seem to forget I was once a poet. Honestly, learn how to smile.

I mean, you really think I'd suggest a sexual revolution in the Empire? That would just lead to all sorts of sticky messes. Literally. Nobody wants that, now do they?

Edit: Actually, I take that back. It would just be really, really awkward.

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.08.09 09:33:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Aldrith Shutaq
Originally by: Arkady Sadik
I have seen your pilots deep within Metropolis, shooting peaceful industrialists and miners, fighting anti-pirates, and even the occasional militia pilot.


Alright, now this is something I really must inquire about.


I did not accuse your pilots of piracy for a reason - apologies if you felt that was implied.

The purpose of that quote was to point out that your pilots do quite a lot of things that go far beyond "only defending the empire". Again, they do well in that - this is war - but it means that all these comments on how you just want peace that are regularly implied on on IGS and The Summit are a bit misleading.

Regarding the respective allegiations:

I have seen your pilots engage non-capsuleer mining operations in Metropolis. I am sure there are all sorts of explanations of why these miners are totally worthy of being shot at (and this being a war, I would likely agree with those explanations).

I have seen your pilots flashy with sentries on their kill mails fighting local anti-pirates (e.g. in Orfrold on 113.08.03, likely engaging reds of yours, mind - this is not an accusation of piracy).

So, again, not an accusation of your pilots breaking your own RoE, just an example of your pilots going a great deal beyond simply "defending the Empire".


Out of curiosity, what do you see as the possible replacement for your aristocracy if you seek to abolish it?

Mirabi Tiane
Posted - 2011.08.09 10:23:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Aldrith Shutaq
Yes she is! She is a bit hard on the edges, but really the most lovely woman once you get to know her.

The most lovely woman once you're in the Empire's shackles or her own special shackles, I suppose.

Codo Yagari
Yulai Guard 1st Fleet
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2011.08.09 11:05:00 - [20]
 

May the people of New Eden one day unite in mutual respect, wisdom and compassion.

(sorry for the spam :D)

Tigerfish Torpedo
Underworld Protection Agency
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.08.09 12:00:00 - [21]
 

I wish I had a million ISK for every time I've read a thread relating to the poor treatment of Matari slaves at the hands of the Amarrian people. I'd be rich by now! Well, I am rich, but you get the general idea...

To my mind, the pilots within the KotMC are some of the nicest people in New Eden, and if I didnít already have my own organisation within the Deklein Coalition, would consider KotMC the only place Iíd ever consider joining. That said, I owe a lot to these fine men and women, and despite any pathetic issues you may have with their actions in space differing to their social standards and ideals, they are worth far more than a bunch of jumped up would-be slaves.

Personally, I donít believe they owe you any explanation for their actions. Instead of concentrating on a corporation that you will undoubtedly be unable to change, why donít you try dealing with a society that still publicly embraces slavery etc, such as the Sani Sabik.

Failing that, you could always try starting a trend within your Ďkindí, and stand out from your peers by stating that no amount of freedom fighting on your part will ever change the way the Empire works. Would it not be equally fun to spend your time more productively in the pursuit of wealth or seeing the overwhelming population of dangerous asteroids culled from the low sec systems under Amarrian control?

Donít mistake me for someone that supports the Empire. Lord knows I have nothing but disdain for the CVA pilots allied to my friends in the Knighthood. I just tire of the pathetic ramblings of former slaves.

Tigerfish.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.09 12:26:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Raze Valadeus on 09/08/2011 12:39:33
Miss Del'thul,

An adequate point, if you wish to carry the start of the war back that far then I certainly will not argue that you are in the wrong. Except to remind you of the cease-fire and truce that was issued after the Day of Darkness, the cessation of aggression from the Empire until the attack by the Elder Invasion and the point that slavery is currently limited to a form of social reformation on certain criminals and prisoners of war guilty of war crimes.

Otherwise, I believe we've discussed before how progress is being made and there are many of us still fighting for it. The least you and yours can do is recognize attempts that are made instead of lashing out at every one of us simply because we haven't reached the point you demand as quickly as you're demanding it.

I'm not going to try and paint the Republic black and point fingers and claim we're all equally guilty of atrocities, we all know that already. What I am going to do is re-emphasize the fact that change takes time. I know that isn't what you want to hear, but he truth seldom is.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.09 12:26:00 - [23]
 

This was to be expected, I guess. It was probably unevitable to see the real matter of the topic being extended to the same generalities and overheard nonsense of Amarr vs Minmatar.

Originally by: Arnulf Ogunkoya
Originally by: Lyn Farel
Edited by: Lyn Farel on 08/08/2011 22:07:43
The Republic, and the TLF are at war. Electus Matari is not.


Our charter reads as follows:
Quote:
We, the members of Electus Matari, have chosen to join an alliance of independent corporations loyal to the Minmatar Republic.

We seek to strengthen and develop the Republic, in order to support her people, her government, and her military forces.

We will defend her citizens, her assets, and her territory against all enemies and usurpers, foreign and domestic.

We advocate the right of all Minmatar to live in freedom and according to the customs of their clan and tribe, including those currently in foreign captivity.

We aim to be professional and efficient in what we do. We educate our members in the ways of the capsuleer, and provide a place for experienced pilots to use their expertise for the Republic on their own volition.

Out of respect to those who have served under Amarrian rule, no Amarrian is allowed in a position of authority over any of us without that member's express permission.


I think this makes it quite clear why we consider you to be enemies. Certainly while you are on active crusade service.


There is a gap between considering someone 'enemy' and being 'at war' with him or her.

Originally by: Myxx
Edited by: Myxx on 09/08/2011 02:32:17
I used to be of the mind that the republic and empire could co-exist if the Empire were to cease aggression and release all of the matari they hold enslaved.



I think you are mistaken. Since the truce after the Day of Darkness, no aggression was done on the Empire's behalf. It is even illegal to enslave people outside of the Amarr Empire space. These are facts.

Opinions will differ about it, much like extremists like Del'Thul saying again and again the same things, or some PIE Inc fanatics, but the facts remain. The aggression has changed of direction for centuries now.

Azelor Delaria
Caldari
We Are So Troubled Everyone Runs Screaming
Posted - 2011.08.09 12:32:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Aldrith Shutaq
Edited by: Aldrith Shutaq on 09/08/2011 03:58:11
Dear Minmatar Republic,

Rest assured we have received your multiple letters/rocks/autocannon shells of complaint, and are currently working towards meeting your requests. Your people will be returned to you in two to three business centuries. We apologize for any inconvenience this delay may cause.

In the meantime, we would like to thank you for your patience as we sort out our nation, which must go through a complete overhaul, including, but not limited to: religious reformation, social re-stratification, institutional examination, political realignment, economic reform, cultural reform, philosophical revolution, sexual revolution, aristocratic ethical re-education and abolition. Unfortunately, we have only just begun work on these projects.

Please do not burn down our houses.

Thank you,

Aldrith Shutaq
Something-Master of a Knighthood of Some Stuff


I always liked you. Now I love you. In a purely platonic way, mind you.

You get a free pony.

Julianus Soter
Gallente
Moira.
Posted - 2011.08.09 12:40:00 - [25]
 

Copied from evemails to expedite resolution of situation:

Diplomatic standings
From: Julianus Soter
Sent: 2011.08.09 04:17
To: Aldrith Shutaq, Shalee Lianne,

Dear Grandmaster Shutaq,

This is a notification that KOTMC has been set -5.0 regarding corporate standings between our two entities. This is in reference to a sustained targeting attempt by KOTMC pilots against Moira within the Arnher system, on the Evati stargate.

Additionally, their ships attempted to drive my Rupture off of the stargate. I initiated communications to relay that our force did not wish to engage theirs, and that their activity was determined to be approaching hostile levels.

I'm sorry to say that this incident has damaged our relationship with your corporation, which in the past has been a positive one.

If you wish to discuss this matter in the future, I'd be happy to do so.

Sincerely,

Soter

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.09 12:41:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Lyn Farel on 09/08/2011 12:55:22
Originally by: Arkady Sadik

Originally by: Lyn Farel
Please excuse me if this is not obvious, but what do they do ?


This was part of the discussion regarding KotMC's activities; my claim was that, while they might be also working for a change from within, the vast majority of their actions are fighting a war for the Empire.

KotMC are among the top corporations (3-4) of the Amarr Militia regarding kills of your enemies. You are currently the top corporation regarding "victory points" in the last week. I have seen your pilots deep within Metropolis, shooting peaceful industrialists and miners, fighting anti-pirates, and even the occasional militia pilot. Additionally, KotMC is among the leading corporations publically advocating cooperation between the Amarr and the Caldari, supporting the Caldari in their war against the Federation.

Congratulations to all of this. It's not easy to be one of the best. At the same time, I see two or three pilots among your ranks arguing on IGS or The Summit for change, sporadically. I am sure there is a lot of work happening that no one sees, but I have serious trouble believing that it compares at all to what else you do.

The fact of the matter is that the KotMC is currently among the greatest threats to the safety and well-being of the Minmatar people. At the same time, you seem able to convince all sorts of people that you are somehow "not that bad" when it comes to Amarrians. Again, a very impressive act of propaganda - as your CEO says, I am not going to go so far as to say we also fight them by undermining their capsuleer through social interaction, but our practices in this regard are not without reason.


As said Mr Shutaq, your claims about piracy will need an inquiry, and it could help a lot if you had actually proofs of this to put in the light of evidence.

Then, shooting at war targets capsuleers is legitimate, and kills of our capsuleers enemies are the best way to weaken their war effort, with no territorial contestation impact nor civilian casualties, except their crews, which is unfortunate, but they picked their sides, unlike the people living in the contested areas.

Maybe you do not see the work that is happening, but it is yet quite obvious. There is a whole new amarrian mindset emerging, starting in the capsuleer community, and this is already an achievement. Someday, if I get free of my Holder duties, might I come to the Republic and do the exact same work. Please keep in mind that this useless war is working maybe for political reasons related to the governements, but before anything, because capsuleers actually agree to take part in it. The Knighthood is one of them, the difference being that we are aware of that fact.

Then, us trying to convince people that we are 'not that bad' (thus, being 'bad' nevertheless) is only a biased opinion of yours, which holds no factual impact nor sense in the current discussion.


EDIT : I would like to add something that I find important for a better mutual understanding : as I said I can't refute all your accusations, especially concerning some of our actions that you quoted above (Caldari-Gallente war, etc), and even if I disagree with them, I am still part of a Council where I am a minority. My question is : if you were in such a position in Electus Matari someday with a few disagreements here and there, would you immediatly quit and give up, or would you continue to strive for what you believe in ?

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.09 12:48:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Lyn Farel on 09/08/2011 12:48:30
Originally by: Myxx
Originally by: Arkady Sadik


So while I applaud the desire of some progressivists, including those few within the KotMC, as mentioned in the other thread I'm afraid that the fruits of that labor will be brought in only when it is too late for either of our nations.

We're both simply working on making sure it is not our nation that it is to late for.

Please have your empress contact the Republic government for the terms of your unconditional surrender.


I should make it clear that I am certainly not an anti-war, progressive type. At least, not in relation to the Empire or Republic. I see a problem that is larger. I see war as a problem that hinders scientific progress that would benefit humanity as a whole.

I say this as someone who is a resident proper of no single nation and an employee loyal to no singular faction. I gave that up a long time ago.

The only thing that prevents all out war, as has been demonstrated in the past, is CONCORD. That, however, is only a stopgap put in place ages ago in hopes that the sides involved could work things out peacefully.

Though, it seems to have failed with the state of decline between the Republic and Empire. CONCORD's final failure will come when the Caldari and Gallente can no longer seem to ever come to a peaceful resolution. They're not there, yet. I only hope they can resolve that because if they cannot, it spells certain disaster for the Republic.

I've said it before and ill say it again, The Republic and Empire should just get it overwith and kill each other without restrictions. It is based upon thus that I would have to side with the Republic in that the Empire may just need to cease to exist fully.


Then you share my beliefs, and yet you would like to actually burn to ashes half of New Eden to solve the matter. Your argument is totally unlogical and full of inconsistencies that a scientist should be ashamed of.

If you really look for stability, strive for it, instead of aspiring for a full scale war. And I can assure you that a full scale war between the two entities would also destroy in the mean time the Gallente Federation and the Caldari State.

Arkady Sadik
Minmatar
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.08.09 13:05:00 - [28]
 

You started it.
No you.
No you!
NO YOU!
YOU!

...

What an exciting discussion.

- The Amarr invaded the Minmatar
- The Minmatar rebelled against the Amarr
- The Amarr kept some (quite a few) Minmatar as slaves
- There was an official cessation of hostilities
- While publically adhering to that, neither side actually followed that agreement. The Empire continued to raid for slaves in the Republic, the Republic kept freeing slaves from the Empire, and in the end, the Republic escalated the existing conflict.

(If you'd like to go for "no the Empire did not, the Empire kept to the truce, those were rogue elements", I have to inform you that the Elder Fleet did not have the support of the Republic; they were rogue elements. But does it matter?)

Out of mutual stubbornness, both of our nations have over the last centuries maneuvered themselves into a situation where neither side can back off. The Amarr can not afford to lose the slaves upon which they built their Empire, and the Minmatar can not back down because that would simply lead back into slavery.

So here we are. At war. A war I never wanted, but we rarely get what we want.

Deal with it.

Originally by: Lyn Farel
Someday, if I get free of my Holder duties


You keep slaves?

Ryven Krennel
Caldari
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.09 13:17:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Julianus Soter
Copied from evemails to expedite resolution of situation:

Diplomatic standings
From: Julianus Soter
Sent: 2011.08.09 04:17
To: Aldrith Shutaq, Shalee Lianne,

Dear Grandmaster Shutaq,

This is a notification that KOTMC has been set -5.0 regarding corporate standings between our two entities. This is in reference to a sustained targeting attempt by KOTMC pilots against Moira within the Arnher system, on the Evati stargate.

Additionally, their ships attempted to drive my Rupture off of the stargate. I initiated communications to relay that our force did not wish to engage theirs, and that their activity was determined to be approaching hostile levels.

I'm sorry to say that this incident has damaged our relationship with your corporation, which in the past has been a positive one.

If you wish to discuss this matter in the future, I'd be happy to do so.

Sincerely,

Soter


Mr. Soter,
As one of the people targetting you, allow me to deflate your "poor pitiful me" bubble. If we had intended on aggressing you, you would have left the system in a pod. However, it is perfectly reasonable to target a neutral on a gate inside hostile territory especially when a large gang of pirates was nearby, and they had recently engaged in hostile actions. Of course, we recognized your name after a few minutes, but, by then you had gotten just a little too whiny in your communication. I mean, if I had a fit every time anyone targetted me, I'd never get anything done. Last I checked, your corporation is neutral, and I have to wonder just what you were doing in that area?

Now, if you wish to continue to delude this summit into believing you were some sort of victim, well, that's just nonsense. You did get bumped. It was not a very successful bump, if I recall. However, this bump did not take place until after you had started threatening us with -10 standings over the minor targetting issue.

So, some basic questions: Did anyone fire anything at you? Were you warp-scrambled? Were you able to get away?

Allow me to answer for you: No one shot at you. You weren't scrambled. You warped off. I fail to see what you're complaining about.


So, I suggest these actions: 1) Take yourself a good deal less seriously. 2) Repeat step 1 until you can avoid this kind of ludicrousness in the future.

As a final note: I do not speak for the Knighthood as a whole, only for myself, but, felt I should respond to this because I take issue with this sort of self-important drivel.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.08.09 13:38:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Arkady Sadik
You started it.
No you.
No you!
NO YOU!
YOU!

...

What an exciting discussion.

- The Amarr invaded the Minmatar
- The Minmatar rebelled against the Amarr
- The Amarr kept some (quite a few) Minmatar as slaves
- There was an official cessation of hostilities
- While publically adhering to that, neither side actually followed that agreement. The Empire continued to raid for slaves in the Republic, the Republic kept freeing slaves from the Empire, and in the end, the Republic escalated the existing conflict.

(If you'd like to go for "no the Empire did not, the Empire kept to the truce, those were rogue elements", I have to inform you that the Elder Fleet did not have the support of the Republic; they were rogue elements. But does it matter?)

Out of mutual stubbornness, both of our nations have over the last centuries maneuvered themselves into a situation where neither side can back off. The Amarr can not afford to lose the slaves upon which they built their Empire, and the Minmatar can not back down because that would simply lead back into slavery.

So here we are. At war. A war I never wanted, but we rarely get what we want.

Deal with it.

Originally by: Lyn Farel
Someday, if I get free of my Holder duties


You keep slaves?



Mister Sadik,

You have echoed my thoughts nearly precisely with this post. I think most of us don't want this war and we truly are trying to bring about some sort of resolution, but you are right in that neither government can or will stand down, at least not yet.

If I didn't honestly believe that there is hope for a resolution that would be beneficial to both peoples and bring about a better future for the cluster as a whole, I wouldn't be fighting where I am fighting right now. I am sure the same could be said of you, could it not?

I do believe that one day we will be able to sit across a table from one another, enjoying a game of chess over tea while Matari and Amarr children play together in the recreational center next door. Not because one people is subject to another, but because both people can coexist in freedom.

I would, however, like to clarify that being a Holder does not immediately mean you keep slaves. "Holder" is a title of status in the Empire, like minor nobility.


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