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Tai Meijer
Caldari
Malkutha
Posted - 2011.08.10 02:18:00 - [151]
 

Originally by: Kijo Rikki
Edited by: Kijo Rikki on 10/08/2011 02:11:38
Quote:

lol, And?



Just pointing out that gun ownership makes it easier for the bad guys to get guns and simultaneously points out a fallacy that guns somehow prevent crime...nothing like having your own gun stolen from you to point that out.


They prevent repeat offenders, that's a fact btw. In any case our murder rate is not so high because of the skill of our surgeons, Gun ownership also makes it easier to defend your home, see the case of tony martin. So, i'll ask you again, how do you explain the UK criminals having guns, if they can't steal from private homes to get them?

Kijo Rikki
Caldari
Point of No Return
Waterboard
Posted - 2011.08.10 02:20:00 - [152]
 

Originally by: Tai Meijer
Originally by: Kijo Rikki
Edited by: Kijo Rikki on 10/08/2011 02:11:38
Quote:

lol, And?



Just pointing out that gun ownership makes it easier for the bad guys to get guns and simultaneously points out a fallacy that guns somehow prevent crime...nothing like having your own gun stolen from you to point that out.


They prevent repeat offenders, that's a fact btw. In any case our murder rate is not so high because of the skill of our surgeons, Gun ownership also makes it easier to defend your home, see the case of tony martin. So, i'll ask you again, how do you explain the UK criminals having guns, if they can't steal from private homes to get them?


A. Not if you miss.

B. I suppose I'll answer your question with two questions: How many UK criminals do you suppose have guns, and how many do you think American criminals have? I'm willing to bet we have you beat.

Tai Meijer
Caldari
Malkutha
Posted - 2011.08.10 02:24:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: Kijo Rikki
Originally by: Tai Meijer
Originally by: Kijo Rikki
Edited by: Kijo Rikki on 10/08/2011 02:11:38
Quote:

lol, And?



Just pointing out that gun ownership makes it easier for the bad guys to get guns and simultaneously points out a fallacy that guns somehow prevent crime...nothing like having your own gun stolen from you to point that out.


They prevent repeat offenders, that's a fact btw. In any case our murder rate is not so high because of the skill of our surgeons, Gun ownership also makes it easier to defend your home, see the case of tony martin. So, i'll ask you again, how do you explain the UK criminals having guns, if they can't steal from private homes to get them?


A. Not if you miss.

B. I suppose I'll answer your question with two questions: How many UK criminals do you suppose have guns, and how many do you think American criminals have? I'm willing to bet we have you beat.


A. Now you are trying to muddy the water, don't try to pull a fox news on me, dead criminal will never offend again. Fact.

B. Population of the UK = roughly 65mil. Population of the states = 300mil. whoda thunk it.

Popa Cyno
Posted - 2011.08.10 02:26:00 - [154]
 

Originally by: Blacksquirrel

It's a riot people not a revolt or even a revolution. No one cried Armageddon when the entire middle east was up in arms/ (part of it still is) starting last January.


Former-President Mubarak would beg to differ.
Gaddafi might still be in denial, a very heavily armed denial.

Really, if taken in a vacuum, this is not much more worse than the LA riots of the 1990's

But recall that Europe is failing under debt, ditto with the US.
3 nations in the middle east have already gone into open revolt under similar circumstances.
China and India have been growing steadily and don't show any signs of stopping because of this nonsense.

So yeah, brush up on your Mandarin and Hindi, though English will probably work for the next few decades.
Cause western civilization is going down the crapper, and you know what, I'm fine with that. The new civilizations already took quite alot from western culture, the transition won't be that jarring.

Kijo Rikki
Caldari
Point of No Return
Waterboard
Posted - 2011.08.10 02:29:00 - [155]
 

Edited by: Kijo Rikki on 10/08/2011 02:36:06
Edited by: Kijo Rikki on 10/08/2011 02:29:16
Quote:

Tai Meijer



He aint dead if you miss. Fact. Razz PS, willing to bet your average frightened homeonwer in the middle of an invasion at night will do just that.

Also, go ahead and use percentages of the population, then. We will still smoke you, guns are just too easy to acquire here. You have to smuggle yours into the country, so...I'll go do the research, but I already know the answer.

EDIT: I despise using wiki for info, and its ten year old data, but oh well.

Quote:

Firearm homicide rate
per 100,000 pop.

US 2.97
UK/Whales 0.12

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gun_crime#Homicides_by_country
http://www.unodc.org/pdf/crime/seventh_survey/7sc.pdf

Tai Meijer
Caldari
Malkutha
Posted - 2011.08.10 02:34:00 - [156]
 

Edited by: Tai Meijer on 10/08/2011 02:45:03



Originally by: Kijo Rikki

He aint dead if you miss. Fact. Razz PS, willing to bet your average frightened homeonwer in the middle of an invasion at night will do just that.


Tony martin didn't miss. Fact.

Originally by: Kijo Rikki
Also, go ahead and use percentages of the population, then. We will still smoke you, guns are just too easy to acquire here. You have to smuggle yours into the country, so...I'll go do the research, but I already know the answer.



So what if guns are easy to obtain? They will be even easier for the criminals because they don't have to jump through hoops like we in the UK have to.

The fact is you can't come up with a defence, a police force is largely redundant in the UK, and the US even, because the areas are so vast that you have to police, they can't be expected to be everywhere at the same time, all the time, having gun ownership and the license to defend your property evens the odds a little until they get there. The criminals will already have weapons, and what you propose is more state control, search for weapons etc, search the criminals by all means, they will still get them. Dead criminals commit no crimes, it used to be that an englishmans home is his castle, not so any more, mainly because the filth, and the crims, HATE anyone else having guns.

Also, explain switzerland who let their citizens have guns.

Kijo Rikki
Caldari
Point of No Return
Waterboard
Posted - 2011.08.10 02:44:00 - [157]
 

Originally by: Tai Meijer
Edited by: Tai Meijer on 10/08/2011 02:39:59


Originally by: Kijo Rikki

He aint dead if you miss. Fact. Razz PS, willing to bet your average frightened homeonwer in the middle of an invasion at night will do just that.


Tony martin didn't miss. Fact.

Originally by: Kijo Rikki
Also, go ahead and use percentages of the population, then. We will still smoke you, guns are just too easy to acquire here. You have to smuggle yours into the country, so...I'll go do the research, but I already know the answer.



So what if guns are easy to obtain? They will be even easier for the criminals because they don't have to jump through hoops like we in the UK have to.

The fact is you can't come up with a defence, a police force is largely redundant in the UK, and the US even, because the areas are so vast that you have to police, they can't be expected to be everywhere at the same time, all the time, having gun ownership and the license to defend your property evens the odds a little until they get there. The criminals will already have weapons, and what you propose is more state control, search for weapons etc, search the criminals by all means, they will still get them. Dead criminals commit no crimes, it used to be that an englishmans home is his castle, not so any more, mainly because the filth, and the crims, HATE anyone else having guns.

and so what if guns are easy to obtain? They will be even easier for the criminals because they don't have to jump through hoops like we in the UK have to.

Also, explain switzerland who let their citizens have guns.


Yes, having to have them smuggled into the country is a bigger hoop than smashing your window and taking it from your house. Doesn't Switzerland represent the epitome of neutrality?

Tai Meijer
Caldari
Malkutha
Posted - 2011.08.10 02:49:00 - [158]
 

Originally by: Kijo Rikki


Yes, having to have them smuggled into the country is a bigger hoop than smashing your window and taking it from your house.


You are missing the point. Criminals will get guns no matter what. The law only effects the law abiding. What you propose is more state control, more state control that will hinder the law abiding, and help the criminals defeat the law abiding.

Originally by: Kijo Rikki
Doesn't Switzerland represent the epitome of neutrality?


They have lower gun crime then the states, per 100,000 according to your wiki leak, therefore the problem isn't the guns is it?

Kijo Rikki
Caldari
Point of No Return
Waterboard
Posted - 2011.08.10 02:55:00 - [159]
 

They have lower crime, period. If you note the column just to the left, which is % of homicides with firearms, you'll notice they are at 37% compared to the states 46%.

BTW I'm not proposing anything, just pointing out the UK as it currently stands is in much better shape than the States. I'm sure guns don't kill people, its the people. But you just might have to sit down and consider the fact that a gun is a powerful tool that makes carrying out a murder extremely easy and can in fact, encourage many people to do something they would otherwise not consider.

Tai Meijer
Caldari
Malkutha
Posted - 2011.08.10 03:01:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Kijo Rikki
They have lower crime, period. If you note the column just to the left, which is % of homicides with firearms, you'll notice they are at 37% compared to the states 46%.

BTW I'm not proposing anything, just pointing out the UK as it currently stands is in much better shape than the States. I'm sure guns don't kill people, its the people. But you just might have to sit down and consider the fact that a gun is a powerful tool that makes carrying out a murder extremely easy and can in fact, encourage many people to do something they would otherwise not consider.


Of course they have lower crime, the problem is not the weapons but the people. Gun makes it easier to kill, but it also makes it alot easier to defend. If the problem is with the people, why try to ban the weapon? Country that want the citizens disarmed are ripe for total control.

Lithalnas
Amarr
Privateers
Privateer Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.10 03:02:00 - [161]
 

So how is London this morning? How much of the city is affected by this silliness?

This thread going in the direction of gun control is really depressing because the antigun people will never have their mind changed, and as for the pro gun people, imagine someone is telling you that you cannot have in possession something you already own and you feel that the object is what empowers you to have your human rights, that is how they feel.

Kijo Rikki
Caldari
Point of No Return
Waterboard
Posted - 2011.08.10 03:07:00 - [162]
 

Edited by: Kijo Rikki on 10/08/2011 03:16:17
Edited by: Kijo Rikki on 10/08/2011 03:07:20
Quote:

Of course they have lower crime, the problem is not the weapons but the people. Gun makes it easier to kill, but it also makes it alot easier to defend. If the problem is with the people, why try to ban the weapon? Country that want the citizens disarmed are ripe for total control.



I generally would agree with that sentiment, but I've had two thoughts in my head about that.

A) The U.S. is probably due for a revolution of some form, but the very thought of its citizens rising up and forming militia's to combat today's government/military is laughable in my mind. 1984 has literally happened already, and most people don't even know it (I wonder how many people even know what I'm talking about?) The amount of surveillance, intelligence/counterintelligence and the power of our military and the weapons available to it makes an outright revolt impossible, in my opinion.

B) Witnessing the protests in the middle east, most countries that conjure up images of oppressive regimes in my mind, are falling like dominoes to massive protests without its citizens using weapons.

EDIT: To answer your question of if its the people , why ban the weapon? Same reason we don't let certain countries have nukes. I am of the opinion that people here in the states who own guns are more likely to kill their spouse or themselves than to shoot a criminal. I certainly read enough about domestic homicide to believe it. I personally will never own a gun because I believe I will kill someone I love in anger or even myself if I did.

I have thoroughly enjoyed our debate tonight, Tai Meijer. o7

Tai Meijer
Caldari
Malkutha
Posted - 2011.08.10 03:09:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: Lithalnas
So how is London this morning? How much of the city is affected by this silliness?



Alot, from reading police blogs the higher ups are 'holding back' giving orders to stand by, this is pure blackmail and an attempt to extort the goverment. The police higher ups are annoyed that they will be getting sacked because they are not needed (and should never have been needed) ACPO is too political, and needed to be culled, so this is them 'fighting back'. Giveing the mob the ability to run rampant. they could squash this is seconds if they wanted too. It's blackmail, and many of the public are buying it, and that's a shame.

Nimrod Nemesis
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2011.08.10 03:12:00 - [164]
 

I have to fly into Gatwick next week.

heh ugh

Kraven Stark
Caldari
Atavism Industries
Posted - 2011.08.10 03:20:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: Bart Starr
Last, its pretty clear to me that Obama's rhetoric is designed to encourage riots like the ones we are watching in London. Those rioters are not attacking the government. They are attacking small business owners. Every speech he makes references 'corporate jet owners' and 'millionaires' and 'billionaires', and encouraging anger towards them for supposedly 'not paying their fair share'. Obama's endless drumbeat of rhetoric is the kind that leads straight to class warfare and violence. He needs to be replaced in 2012 - if not sooner.


Wow, still hanging on to this eh? The way you are summarizing Obama's words, it is painfully obvious that you have not actually listened to what he has said and are instead listening to 3rd party sources that are little more that BS spigots.


Bart Starr
Posted - 2011.08.10 03:22:00 - [166]
 

Edited by: Bart Starr on 10/08/2011 03:27:30
Originally by: Kijo Rikki

B) Witnessing the protests in the middle east, most countries that conjure up images of oppressive regimes in my mind, are falling like dominoes to massive protests without its citizens using weapons.



Hmmm... Nope, no weapons here.

None here either.

Countries where the population is disarmed are far easier for tyrannical governments to slaughter.

Not sure if these count as weapons. Inventive though. Rolling Eyes

Kijo Rikki
Caldari
Point of No Return
Waterboard
Posted - 2011.08.10 03:27:00 - [167]
 

Way to ignore Egypt and Tunisia

Bart Starr
Posted - 2011.08.10 03:36:00 - [168]
 

Originally by: Kijo Rikki
Way to ignore Egypt and Tunisia


Unimportant. Your statement was clearly false. Sorry.

It WILL be interesting to see what ends up happening in Syria.

Blacksquirrel
Posted - 2011.08.10 03:38:00 - [169]
 

Originally by: Kijo Rikki
Way to ignore Egypt and Tunisia


Popular uprisings had the military backing them, and the populations of both are well educated. In part due to mandatory draft (In Egypt) Their officers were also quite liberal, and well educated.

However im rather sure the Syrians were wishing they had more access to firearms.

Kijo Rikki
Caldari
Point of No Return
Waterboard
Posted - 2011.08.10 03:41:00 - [170]
 

Edited by: Kijo Rikki on 10/08/2011 03:49:38
Edited by: Kijo Rikki on 10/08/2011 03:43:20
Quote:

Witnessing the protests in the middle east, most countries that conjure up images of oppressive regimes in my mind, are falling like dominoes to massive protests without its citizens using weapons.



My exact words. Read them carefully.

Just FYI, Libya is a civil war, not a protest.

Quote:

It WILL be interesting to see what ends up happening in Syria.



That will be the true test, as its a relatively peaceful protest versus a defiant and oppressive government. I am interested to see if the people's will stays intact long enough for the government to crack.

Quote:

However im rather sure the Syrians were wishing they had more access to firearms.



I'm sure they might but I'm not so sure that would work in their favor. Having armed civilians would work in the governments defense of moving down entire crowds, in my opinion.

Lithalnas
Amarr
Privateers
Privateer Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.10 03:46:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: Bart Starr
Not sure if these count as weapons. Inventive though. Rolling Eyes


Kind of looks like borderlands, million bazillian guns!

Vogue
Short Bus Pole Dancers
Posted - 2011.08.10 03:51:00 - [172]
 

Edited by: Vogue on 10/08/2011 03:53:19
British people can be very resilient. And to many outsiders it can be so much so that we appear as arrogant. We muddle through a lot of stuff and endure with a sometimes masochistic melancholy and an irreverent wit. The riots are bad but I think they will pass and life will go on with the flaws the country has. But though there are social ills in Britain like any other country we do have a sense of moderation that keeps us plodding on. And also a sense of moderation that is outraged by abuse of power. So while we have a clunky approach to things we can be starkly honest about some other things. And maybe from this is the reason the police are not coming down on the rioters with hammers and tongs is that we share a degree of failure about the situation.

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

The yanks are best at success. And us British are best at muddling through the murky middle.

Jag Hiroshii
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.10 05:45:00 - [173]
 

Originally by: jason hill
the kids rioting in the streets have got nothing to do with the rodney king incident .in the uk the police mostly police with consent please do not compare london with LA

the kids for some reason seem to think that they are disenfranchiced (spelling its late) with the rest of society which is simply not true .for christ sakes i personally know plumbers roofers and chippies crying out for young kids so that they can train then up ...but the current mentality of the kids today leaves them ..bemused

and we wonder here in the uk why we are falling behind ?
i wonder ..is it the benefits system and the total lack of a stable familiy ?

enquiring mind would like to ask



That.

Personally, I think there is an underclass that are too lazy to compete with everyone else in society for jobs and status (and respect) so they invent their own way. One where the nature of the activity excludes the majority of the potential competition on a moral basis. In this reduced community, they can 'be someone' much quicker.

Naturally, this clashes with the real world from time to time.



Myfanwy Heimdal
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.10 08:27:00 - [174]
 

Off topic > Nice picture, Vogue.

baltec1
Posted - 2011.08.10 08:41:00 - [175]
 

There has been two shootings in the whole of the riots, one of them was the police shooting a gangster. More people were killed by a car ramming into them last night so it looks to me like guns are not as simple to get get as some here would think.

I was going to take a trip to manchester to visit a few museums but I dont think I want my car getting turned into a roman candleugh

Barakkus
Posted - 2011.08.10 11:33:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: Kijo Rikki
Edited by: Kijo Rikki on 10/08/2011 02:11:38
Quote:

lol, And?



Just pointing out that gun ownership makes it easier for the bad guys to get guns and simultaneously points out a fallacy that guns somehow prevent crime...nothing like having your own gun stolen from you to point that out.


It doesn't actually, look at Canada and their gun laws and the amount of weaponry getting into the wrong hands.

The only problem with US gun laws is the fact that gun shows are very unregulated. If those loopholes were closed you'd see less guns reaching those who shouldn't have one.

Kijo Rikki
Caldari
Point of No Return
Waterboard
Posted - 2011.08.10 12:51:00 - [177]
 

Morning, Barakkus,

I was about to rebut on the link I posted, where 600k were stolen from households and only 70k were reported missing or stolen from reputable dealers. Then I realized that was 70k on roughly 10% audited.

In any case, on that same link I wound up on 'Trace the Guns', an interactive map that shows a states gun laws, the amount of crime guns imported and exported through that state and the time to crime stats. Rather interesting, though I wouldn't know entirely what to make of it.


Wendat Huron
Stellar Solutions
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:31:00 - [178]
 

Interesting how CNN makes no mention of the 3 dead in the riots so far, is it wild guessing it's because they're asian and most likely muslim?

Bane Necran
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.10 15:03:00 - [179]
 

Originally by: baltec1
IPCC is not part of the police.


But where will they be getting their information? From the deceased via seance, or the police?

Blacksquirrel
Posted - 2011.08.10 15:16:00 - [180]
 

Having watched a bit of footage, and looked at pics from the riots.... Is it some kind of law in the UK that everyone own a black or grey hoodie?

Forget the color of the people thats the one thing I noticed everyone and their uncle is wearing a hoodie.


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