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Lord Wickham
Posted - 2011.08.07 10:21:00 - [1]
 

Hi all I've seen several discussions about tengus in C3s but what about a proteus? Can I run sites with it?

Also on different note if I'm running sites in a c3 from my c2 static do I fit a salvager on or do I go back for my salvage ship

Mr Kidd
Posted - 2011.08.07 23:29:00 - [2]
 

The proteus' usefulness ends with C2's. There are two issues, DPS & range. I already tried a proteus in C3's solo before the sleeper neut buff. It was an utter failure because blasters have no range and rails have no DPS. The webbing is so bad as to make it impossible to get into range. I can't imagine how much more ineffective it would be with the sleeper neut buff.

Do yourself a favor. Train a Tengu. It's the only T3, without logistics, that will take you to a C5. You can project the same DPS at 1000m as you can 90,000m.

After hitting my head against a wall repeatedly wanting to make Gallente work, it just doesn't. For PVE it's sub-par. Tengu is the king of PVE. You're just doing yourself a disservice not training it for such.

Akuma Tsukai
Amarr
Posted - 2011.08.08 03:27:00 - [3]
 

while the previous author values tengu too much, i still confirm his general opinion.
The only viable proteus fit for C3 is drone config with nos, which is subpar to ishtar and tengu.
Gun configs on prot are generally bad, thx to hybrids. Do the end logic yourself.
Or may be still stack with your T2? ISK increase is minor/none if you gonna solo, due to introduction of some ewar.
P.S.Bring a dedicated salvager, easier that way.

Wormhole Club
Posted - 2011.08.08 06:06:00 - [4]
 

Gila.

Tengu, sadly, is not being too overvalued, as T2 RR fits can sit in a nice blob and do the logi **** fest in high class WHs.

xenodia
Gallente
DYNAMIC INTERVENTION
ORPHANS OF EVE
Posted - 2011.08.08 15:04:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Lord Wickham
Hi all I've seen several discussions about tengus in C3s but what about a proteus? Can I run sites with it?

Also on different note if I'm running sites in a c3 from my c2 static do I fit a salvager on or do I go back for my salvage ship


Proteus is generally a bad idea for PVE in a wormhole (PVP can be another story if you have a cloaky alt/friend to give you a warp in ). Heres why:

Proteus has only 3 real options for DPS... blasters, rails, and drones.

Blasters - no range... you will spend so much time MWDing from target to target that it will take you twice as long to do the site as a tengu would.

Rails - DPS is sucktastic. Nuff said.

Drones - Sleepers love to eat drones for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Relying on drones for DPS is a good way to spend a lot of time sitting in a POS refilling an empty drone bay, that or you spend so much time recalling and relaunching drones youmight as well have just used a tengu.

Starn Holdren
Posted - 2011.08.08 18:17:00 - [6]
 

Proteus in a class 3 is like those cartoons of a big guy holding his hand on a little guys forehead while the poor little guy flails about.

If that's your thing go for it.

Sleeper web + proteus = sad wh'er

Kalin Trose
Posted - 2011.08.09 00:09:00 - [7]
 

Your all utterly wrong.

Proteus are fine in C3s my main uses 1 and blasts through all the sites with ease, solo.

Frigs will web you but Void ammo breaks them into small bits with ease. Using drones with good skills makes mince out of them.

The people who bad mouth a Proteus are either :

Crap at flying them

Cant fly them

End of.

Tre'bor Adnama
Posted - 2011.08.09 04:12:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Tre''bor Adnama on 09/08/2011 04:12:30
LoL such overestimates of c3s strengths. Expectations for a c3 - You will be neuted by cruisers, you will be neuted by a battleship or two at a time (three in one radar/magno) each ship neuting you is equivilent to being hit by one player neut from that size ship. Webs are ~50%, you can still move with a mwd no prob. ~400dps passive shield tank will get you through most anoms and most the sites. I like using a sleipner its a big enough buffer tank and massive dps to just **** its way through sites. Any ship with a solid buffer can do a c3. Also, each sites worth between 30m-60mil. Yay! Also spam that dscan or ill get you!

edit; use a separate salvager.

Akuma Tsukai
Amarr
Posted - 2011.08.09 04:20:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Tre'bor Adnama
Edited by: Tre''bor Adnama on 09/08/2011 04:12:30
LoL such overestimates of c3s strengths. Expectations for a c3 - You will be neuted by cruisers, you will be neuted by a battleship or two at a time (three in one radar/magno) each ship neuting you is equivilent to being hit by one player neut from that size ship. Webs are ~50%, you can still move with a mwd no prob. ~400dps passive shield tank will get you through most anoms and most the sites. I like using a sleipner its a big enough buffer tank and massive dps to just **** its way through sites. Any ship with a solid buffer can do a c3. Also, each sites worth between 30m-60mil. Yay! Also spam that dscan or ill get you!

edit; use a separate salvager.


blablabla
l2r issue. OP asked about proteus in case u missed. Oh, wait, you did.

Skinae
Hello Kitty Hug Patrol
Posted - 2011.08.09 14:06:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: xenodia

Proteus is generally a bad idea for PVE


Fixd that for ya, free of charges.

TheMahdi
Posted - 2011.08.09 20:53:00 - [11]
 

Proteus is fine for C3s, it has more tank then the Legion and Loki and busts out better DPS at close range. The only issue is that it's range is very limited, so you can't start shooting immediately and it's hard to stay aligned and pew pew.

But tbh, I normally would go up close to BS anyway with Legion to blast them with MF ammo. It was considerably faster than Scorch and Scorch burns out too quickly. So the travel time was never an issue considering how much quicker they died and they never really that far away and when you got close they are webbed anyway.

I know somebody that uses a Proteus and runs most anoms equal to if not faster than my Legion. Some the Legion will do better (like the one with Preserver that hangs out at range and all the webbing frigs, making it hard to kill them without killing the Preserver first) and others the blaster Proteus will do quicker (like the one with the turrets where everything pretty much spawns close by and it has the most BS of any C3 anom, meaning more EHP to chew through).

You need a web but so does a good Legion fit. Enjoy one of the coolest looking ships in one of the coolest looking places in EVE!

Fish Hunter
Posted - 2011.08.10 16:41:00 - [12]
 

I used to run c3 sites solo with a proteus alot worked well, but of course every other t3 does it better, haven't tried it since the neut change though, doesn't take much to neut a cruiser after all.

Songbird
Gallente
T.I.E. Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.11 12:40:00 - [13]
 

proteus is a brick, it is the worst of the t3s. it's got a range for the guns of 4km and a speed of 900. I've never before seen such a bad combination ever. The only way it can be useful is if you combine it with a loki and have it web the targets so you can reach em. But even then 2 lokis would do a better job.
OTOH you have the tengu - it tanks easier(shield tank is pve tank) it has 120 km range with the high damage missiles. it is fast and agile.

both loki and tengu shoot without cap , if you're neuted you can depend on your buffer, while you finish off the neuting ship.

When all is said and done proteus is not worth taking out of the hangar on most days.

Xyfu
Minmatar
Love From Above
Posted - 2011.08.27 19:48:00 - [14]
 

I run C3s with a pimpfit Sleip, and my buddy turns up in his less pimp fit proteus.

They're easy as all hell. He burns into the battleships and cruisers, at 1.8 k/s, and before the frigates notice he's there, I've burned into them at 1.2k/s, and shredded them with 425s.

If you're ever worried, go on sisi. -_o_-

Dorian Wylde
Posted - 2011.08.28 16:52:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: xenodia


Drones - Sleepers love to eat drones for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Relying on drones for DPS is a good way to spend a lot of time sitting in a POS refilling an empty drone bay, that or you spend so much time recalling and relaunching drones youmight as well have just used a tengu.


Drones work fine in wormholes if you aren't a complete fool. I've been flying a domi in c3's for years, and have lost all of half a dozen drones to sleepers.

Substantia Nigra
Posted - 2011.08.28 22:12:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Dorian Wylde
Drones work fine in wormholes if you aren't a complete fool.

I don't know about the 'complete fool' bit, but drones are very useful in w-space ... providing you are careful with them (which most hisec mission runners are not). Sleepers do target drones, so you always need to be watchful for drone damage and be ready to withdraw and redeploy when a new spawn occurs and takes a shining to 'em ... which can be a bit of a pain if you've got heavies killing BSs a long way aways.

Mr Kidd
Posted - 2011.08.29 02:01:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Dorian Wylde
Originally by: xenodia


Drones - Sleepers love to eat drones for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Relying on drones for DPS is a good way to spend a lot of time sitting in a POS refilling an empty drone bay, that or you spend so much time recalling and relaunching drones youmight as well have just used a tengu.


Drones work fine in wormholes if you aren't a complete fool. I've been flying a domi in c3's for years, and have lost all of half a dozen drones to sleepers.


Something tells me you're lying out your a**. Seriously, solo, drones are good for 2 things. 1) As a temporary 100% resist since you can leave them out while the sleepers focus fire on them. 2) Wasting your time as you recall/launch them constantly effectively minimizing any DPS you get out of them. Remember, if they're not shooting your target, they're not applying DPS.

In fleet, sure, use them. But solo, don't tell me you've been using them for years in w-space and only lost half a dozen. You're just full of sh**.

Xyfu
Minmatar
Love From Above
Posted - 2011.08.29 03:30:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Mr Kidd
Originally by: Dorian Wylde
Originally by: xenodia


Drones - Sleepers love to eat drones for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Relying on drones for DPS is a good way to spend a lot of time sitting in a POS refilling an empty drone bay, that or you spend so much time recalling and relaunching drones youmight as well have just used a tengu.


Drones work fine in wormholes if you aren't a complete fool. I've been flying a domi in c3's for years, and have lost all of half a dozen drones to sleepers.


Something tells me you're lying out your a**. Seriously, solo, drones are good for 2 things. 1) As a temporary 100% resist since you can leave them out while the sleepers focus fire on them. 2) Wasting your time as you recall/launch them constantly effectively minimizing any DPS you get out of them. Remember, if they're not shooting your target, they're not applying DPS.

In fleet, sure, use them. But solo, don't tell me you've been using them for years in w-space and only lost half a dozen. You're just full of sh**.
I've spent less time in wormholes than he claims to have, but I have to say I've lost one of my 8 warrior Is, and I've been in my current hole, actively, for about 2 weeks. 4 if you count sisi as additional time, (but obviously not been that active there.)

Mr Kidd
Posted - 2011.08.29 19:28:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Xyfu
Originally by: Mr Kidd
Originally by: Dorian Wylde
Originally by: xenodia


Drones - Sleepers love to eat drones for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Relying on drones for DPS is a good way to spend a lot of time sitting in a POS refilling an empty drone bay, that or you spend so much time recalling and relaunching drones youmight as well have just used a tengu.


Drones work fine in wormholes if you aren't a complete fool. I've been flying a domi in c3's for years, and have lost all of half a dozen drones to sleepers.


Something tells me you're lying out your a**. Seriously, solo, drones are good for 2 things. 1) As a temporary 100% resist since you can leave them out while the sleepers focus fire on them. 2) Wasting your time as you recall/launch them constantly effectively minimizing any DPS you get out of them. Remember, if they're not shooting your target, they're not applying DPS.

In fleet, sure, use them. But solo, don't tell me you've been using them for years in w-space and only lost half a dozen. You're just full of sh**.
I've spent less time in wormholes than he claims to have, but I have to say I've lost one of my 8 warrior Is, and I've been in my current hole, actively, for about 2 weeks. 4 if you count sisi as additional time, (but obviously not been that active there.)


That's fascinating. I mean, even when I can forecast the impending aggro switch to drones recalling them before they take the first shot, I usually lose one on the call back 50% of the time from sleeper alpha dps on that drone. You can't even randomly callback drones to reset aggro switching because if you avoided one switch the sleepers will just aggro sometime shortly after you've relaunched them. So if we're talking using drones solo yeah, I think you're all full of sh**.

Derath Ellecon
Posted - 2011.08.29 20:00:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Mr Kidd
That's fascinating. I mean, even when I can forecast the impending aggro switch to drones recalling them before they take the first shot, I usually lose one on the call back 50% of the time from sleeper alpha dps on that drone. You can't even randomly callback drones to reset aggro switching because if you avoided one switch the sleepers will just aggro sometime shortly after you've relaunched them. So if we're talking using drones solo yeah, I think you're all full of sh**.


What kinda drones are you using?

I haven't yet lost a drone, although my WH time is limited compared to many so far. And yes I have used them solo. That being said I never send any drones beyond 10-15km and don't use heavies. Anything beyond 15km Sentries work well. And if you lose a sentry you have to be basically asleep. They are pretty sturdy and recall/re-deploy almost instantly.

I will say running even with one other person knocks drone aggro WAY down.

And my WH experience is limited to C1-C2. So at most I have every gone against is one sleeper BS at a time.

Tauranon
Gallente
Weeesearch
Posted - 2011.08.30 00:14:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Derath Ellecon
Originally by: Mr Kidd
That's fascinating. I mean, even when I can forecast the impending aggro switch to drones recalling them before they take the first shot, I usually lose one on the call back 50% of the time from sleeper alpha dps on that drone. You can't even randomly callback drones to reset aggro switching because if you avoided one switch the sleepers will just aggro sometime shortly after you've relaunched them. So if we're talking using drones solo yeah, I think you're all full of sh**.


What kinda drones are you using?

I haven't yet lost a drone, although my WH time is limited compared to many so far. And yes I have used them solo. That being said I never send any drones beyond 10-15km and don't use heavies. Anything beyond 15km Sentries work well. And if you lose a sentry you have to be basically asleep. They are pretty sturdy and recall/re-deploy almost instantly.

I will say running even with one other person knocks drone aggro WAY down.

And my WH experience is limited to C1-C2. So at most I have every gone against is one sleeper BS at a time.


In a C4 - the post you are quoting is what happens. Occasionally its necessary to kill frigates first, so can't rely on sentries for everything. They do switch after a certain amount of time, but as the guy you are quoting says, they'll turn on the drones pretty quick after they've relaunched, if you time putting them away. I found I made more progress against RR and tanks generally if I let the drones take one hit whilst putting them away, so I could have them out uninterrupted after the aggro switch for as long as possible.



Dorian Wylde
Posted - 2011.08.30 13:47:00 - [22]
 

Edited by: Dorian Wylde on 30/08/2011 13:54:43
Originally by: Mr Kidd
Originally by: Dorian Wylde
Originally by: xenodia


Drones - Sleepers love to eat drones for breakfast, lunch, and dinner. Relying on drones for DPS is a good way to spend a lot of time sitting in a POS refilling an empty drone bay, that or you spend so much time recalling and relaunching drones youmight as well have just used a tengu.


Drones work fine in wormholes if you aren't a complete fool. I've been flying a domi in c3's for years, and have lost all of half a dozen drones to sleepers.


Something tells me you're lying out your a**. Seriously, solo, drones are good for 2 things. 1) As a temporary 100% resist since you can leave them out while the sleepers focus fire on them. 2) Wasting your time as you recall/launch them constantly effectively minimizing any DPS you get out of them. Remember, if they're not shooting your target, they're not applying DPS.

In fleet, sure, use them. But solo, don't tell me you've been using them for years in w-space and only lost half a dozen. You're just full of sh**.


You're welcome to try and prove me wrong.

Originally by: Mr Kidd


That's fascinating. I mean, even when I can forecast the impending aggro switch to drones recalling them before they take the first shot, I usually lose one on the call back 50% of the time from sleeper alpha dps on that drone. You can't even randomly callback drones to reset aggro switching because if you avoided one switch the sleepers will just aggro sometime shortly after you've relaunched them. So if we're talking using drones solo yeah, I think you're all full of sh**.


1. If you're soloing, you recall the second any enemy in your overview starts blinking yellow. This indicates that they still have you targeted, but are shooting something else. If using sentries, they are in your drone bay instantly.

1a. If in a fleet, sleepers rarely target drones at all. We run C3's with mostly domi's, and they target the ships, not the drones.

2. If you're not using sentries, you're using lights to kill frigates. If so, you launch them when the frigates get within 15km. You use warrior IIs, and have drone nav to level 4. Light drones are so small and fast that even if something does start shooting them, they'll make it back to you easily. Possibly with hull damage, but that is easily fixed.

3. The only potential X factor are close orbiting cruisers. They are too close for sentries, and too big for lights. At this point, if you have room, you can deploy heavies, and kill them very quickly, or use mediums. In either case, you have a propulsion mod fitted, burn towards each target before deploying, and stay close enough to recall quickly.

Call me whatever you want, the fact remains that I use drones in wormholes all the time and have zero issues. I understand the sites and the spawns, I know which drones to use for each situation, and I pay attention to what I'm doing. Wormhole sites are not missions where you can launch your sentries then go watch a movie. People who lose drones in wormholes lose them because they are coming from missions.

Is it the fastest way to run sites? No. But it works, doesn't cost ammo, and is a good start for people who don't have better weapon skills, or better ships. A passive shield domi with sentries will handle quite a bit until you can afford a T3 or whatever you prefer.

Tabernack en Chasteaux
Posted - 2011.08.30 14:44:00 - [23]
 

Can we agree that the Proteus kind of sucks as a drone boat? With only 75 bandwidth you're going to be struggling to put out more DPS than a T1 cruiser. I haven't crunched the numbers, but I'm guessing even with a lolrail fit you'll probably do more damage.

The Proteus excels as a heavy tackle/bait ship. You CAN use it in PVE, but the other T3s are just better for the job.

Mr Kidd
Posted - 2011.08.30 15:37:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Dorian Wylde

1. If you're soloing, you recall the second any enemy in your overview starts blinking yellow. This indicates that they still have you targeted, but are shooting something else. If using sentries, they are in your drone bay instantly.


The BS is piling up fast. Anyone with a clue knows the red/yellow indicators always work all the time. Rolling Eyes It's a clear indication that you are indeed full of sh**.


Quote:

1a. If in a fleet, sleepers rarely target drones at all. We run C3's with mostly domi's, and they target the ships, not the drones.


I've already qualified this.

Quote:

2. If you're not using sentries, you're using lights to kill frigates. If so, you launch them when the frigates get within 15km. You use warrior IIs, and have drone nav to level 4. Light drones are so small and fast that even if something does start shooting them, they'll make it back to you easily. Possibly with hull damage, but that is easily fixed.


Oh yeah, repairing drones in the thick of it while you're neuted works wonders I'm sure. If you're repairing them on the fly, again, your DPS is reduced because, that drone(s) aren't on target. And what are you giving up doing it? Are you just repping armor? If so, I'm assuming you're in a RR domi fleet. So do you stop repping your mate to rep the drone? Or are you giving up a gun slot for an extra repper? Are you repping hull as well? What kind of cap are you sacrificing?

Quote:

Call me whatever you want, the fact remains that I use drones in wormholes all the time and have zero issues. I understand the sites and the spawns, I know which drones to use for each situation, and I pay attention to what I'm doing. Wormhole sites are not missions where you can launch your sentries then go watch a movie. People who lose drones in wormholes lose them because they are coming from missions.


And in the end, when soloing, you're drone DPS is less than half. I really don't care if you want to pursue this claim that you rarely lose drones. Anyone that's been in w-space knows that it doesn't matter what you do. You're going to lose drones and lose them regularly.

Sure, in fleet, drones work ok. But then this thread wasn't about fleet. It was about solo.

Quote:

Is it the fastest way to run sites? No. But it works, doesn't cost ammo, and is a good start for people who don't have better weapon skills, or better ships. A passive shield domi with sentries will handle quite a bit until you can afford a T3 or whatever you prefer.


And therein lies a fundamental issue with drones in w-space. T1 drones are cheap. It doesn't really matter if you lose them. Unfortunately, they lack a lot of DPS of T2's. T2's, solo, are a complete waste since sleepers will focus on them, quickly and often. They can be expensive to replace and you will replace them almost as often as you would ammo making them low dps insanely expensive rounds of ammunition.

There are just so many better options, even low skill equivalents. From experience here is comparison of Gallente to Caldari in a C2: Myrm 45 min per site, Drake 30 min, Proteus 15 min, Tengu 10 min. I don't have a direct comparison of Gallente and Caldari in a C3 since I quit using Gallente when I moved up to higher level holes when it became obvious that no matter how much I wanted Gallente to work, it just didn't beyond C2's. There's really only one ship that will take you from a C1 to a C5 and that is the Tengu.

Sure, with logistics you can take other races to higher level holes and people do. But, WTF are you wasting 2 pilots in no DPS ships? That's +1000 dps you could be applying to sleepers.


 

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