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Diesel47
Posted - 2011.08.08 12:06:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Wilhelm Riley
Originally by: Diesel47



Sure we do.

simple:

Situation: Human wants land.

Problem: Bear lives in forest.

Solution: Human bulldozes forest.



By your logic I can bulldoze your house and claim it as my own. Granted, animals can't buy houses or take out mortgages but if bulldozing is all it takes then I'm going to be claiming a looot of land.


No you are wrong.

The only things you cannot claim are other people's land... because they already own it.. And protected natural areas.

And the only reason they are protected is because some human said they were.

Humans own teh earth, get over it.

Wilhelm Riley
Posted - 2011.08.08 14:33:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Diesel47

No you are wrong.

The only things you cannot claim are other people's land... because they already own it.. And protected natural areas.

And the only reason they are protected is because some human said they were.

Humans own teh earth, get over it.


Dinosaurs owned the Earth once. You should go ask one about it.. oh wait.. they're extinct.

We live on the Earth and we make pieces of paper with words on, that doesn't mean we own it.

Diesel47
Posted - 2011.08.08 21:28:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Wilhelm Riley
Originally by: Diesel47

No you are wrong.

The only things you cannot claim are other people's land... because they already own it.. And protected natural areas.

And the only reason they are protected is because some human said they were.

Humans own teh earth, get over it.


Dinosaurs owned the Earth once. You should go ask one about it.. oh wait.. they're extinct.

We live on the Earth and we make pieces of paper with words on, that doesn't mean we own it.


According to your silly argument, because living things end up dying.. that means they don't get to own things.

So why don't I just come over to your house and take whatever I want... You don't own it... because you aren't immortal.

Wilhelm Riley
Posted - 2011.08.08 21:34:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Diesel47


According to your silly argument, because living things end up dying.. that means they don't get to own things.

So why don't I just come over to your house and take whatever I want... You don't own it... because you aren't immortal.


My point was that "owning" the Earth gets us nothing in the end, we're better off leaving it as is. That way people will still be able to live on the Earth.

But go ahead and feel free to cut down forests and dry up lakes, see how much fun it is living in a desolate wasteland.

Ultim8Evil
Ministry Of Eternal Disorder
Posted - 2011.08.08 22:00:00 - [35]
 

Bear comes to town and start fuxx0ring things up, shoot it. Fair play.

Idiots go to Bear-land and get fuXX0red up, unlucky. Shouldn't have been there.

TL;DR = Stay away from Bear-land.

Diesel47
Posted - 2011.08.08 22:04:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Wilhelm Riley
Originally by: Diesel47


According to your silly argument, because living things end up dying.. that means they don't get to own things.

So why don't I just come over to your house and take whatever I want... You don't own it... because you aren't immortal.


My point was that "owning" the Earth gets us nothing in the end, we're better off leaving it as is. That way people will still be able to live on the Earth.

But go ahead and feel free to cut down forests and dry up lakes, see how much fun it is living in a desolate wasteland.


I never said cutting down forests and treating the earth like crap is a good thing.

You can own something without destroying it. Sadly this isn't the case with us. But this world is still ours in the fact that we can do whatever we want on it. Good or bad.

Wilhelm Riley
Posted - 2011.08.08 22:13:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Wilhelm Riley on 08/08/2011 22:15:44
Originally by: Ultim8Evil
Bear comes to town and start fuxx0ring things up, shoot it. Fair play.

Idiots go to Bear-land and get fuXX0red up, unlucky. Shouldn't have been there.

TL;DR = Stay away from Bear-land.


Pretty much.

Originally by: Diesel47
You can own something without destroying it. Sadly this isn't the case with us. But this world is still ours in the fact that we can do whatever we want on it. Good or bad.


Stewardship! That's the word I've been thinking of, or trying to think of.

We don't own the Earth, we're merely in control of it for the time we're here. The current living human population inhabits the Earth now but soon enough we'll all be dead and then it's the kids turn to play on this rock.

There was a woman who "claimed" the sun. Does she own the sun? Do we all have to pay her for using it now?



Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2011.08.08 22:13:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Taedrin on 08/08/2011 22:15:41
Mother nature is a cruel mistress, and all before her are equal - be they man or be they beast. The fact of the matter is that in the animal kingdom, there are no rules, and there is no right or wrong. You can disagree with me all you like, but the fact remains that humans are nothing more than animals themselves. Every living thing simply does whatever it wants, with out a care to any other living thing in existence (except for a few exceptions).

All of our governments, freedoms, societal rules, justice systems and etc... exist simply because we choose to abide by them. There is nothing stopping us from not abiding by them except for our own choice.

Mother nature cares not if an animal lives or dies. She cares not if humanity thrives or perishes. In fact, she couldn't care less if all of life on Earth is wiped from the face of the planet. All life on the planet is, after all, insignificant in the grand scheme of things.

Diesel47
Posted - 2011.08.08 22:17:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Diesel47 on 08/08/2011 22:18:46
Originally by: Wilhelm Riley
Originally by: Ultim8Evil
Bear comes to town and start fuxx0ring things up, shoot it. Fair play.

Idiots go to Bear-land and get fuXX0red up, unlucky. Shouldn't have been there.

TL;DR = Stay away from Bear-land.


Pretty much.

Originally by: Diesel47
You can own something without destroying it. Sadly this isn't the case with us. But this world is still ours in the fact that we can do whatever we want on it. Good or bad.


Stewardship! That's the word I've been thinking of, or trying to think of.

We don't own the Earth, we're merely in control of it for the time we're here. The current living human population inhabits the Earth now but soon enough we'll all be dead and then it's the kids turn to play on this rock.




Isn't being in control of something... owning it?



edit: If that spanish woman can somehow control the sun.. Then hell she owns the ****er! But I doubt she has any control over it. Very Happy

Tattva Paalaka
Appono Astos
Posted - 2011.08.08 22:17:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Taedrin
the fact remains that humans are nothing more than animals themselves


Yes, but animals don't kill out of hate, or revenge. Just necessity.

Bart Starr
Posted - 2011.08.08 22:22:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Wendat Huron
Maneaters of all species are typically tracked down and killed, they've got a taste for us and found out how easy we're to kill, that cannot stand.


This.
Don't agree with this guy on much, but bears are too smart to let live after they've had a human meal. They return again and again to known sources of food.

Pepper spray? Don't believe it. I was given a canister of that when I worked for the Alaska DOT. (They were trying to discourage us from carrying firearms to cut down on potential liability).

I certainly wouldn't entrust my life to pepper spray. We used it on porcupines instead. Laughing Worked pretty well on them, I must say.

First instruction on the bear spray canister: DO NOT APPLY THIS DIRECTLY TO YOUR SKIN. (I guess they were afraid that people would think it worked like 'bug repellent'.

Further instruction:
Wait until the bear is 10-15 FEET away, and then spray it directly in the eyes. Ten to fifteen feet??? Rolling EyesAnyone who has seen a bear run, they cover that distance in LESS than a second. Either you deter the bear (if it really wasn't all that interested) or you mace it, get it mad, and does enough damage to kill you 5 times over.

Only solution for a problem bear? 12 Ga shotgun with SLUGS. (NOT birdshot or buckshot, a sandblasted bear is a VERY angry bear.)

Wilhelm Riley
Posted - 2011.08.08 22:29:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Wilhelm Riley on 08/08/2011 22:29:04
Originally by: Diesel47

Isn't being in control of something... owning it?

edit: If that spanish woman can somehow control the sun.. Then hell she owns the ****er! But I doubt she has any control over it. Very Happy



She can say she owns it but I'd sooner shoot myself in the foot than pay her a penny to sit in the sun.

And no, controlling isn't owning. You don't see Admirals taking their multi billion dollar aircraft carriers on vacations with just their families do you.

LordOfDespair
Posted - 2011.08.08 22:29:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Bart Starr
Originally by: Wendat Huron
Maneaters of all species are typically tracked down and killed, they've got a taste for us and found out how easy we're to kill, that cannot stand.


This.
Don't agree with this guy on much, but bears are too smart to let live after they've had a human meal. They return again and again to known sources of food.

Pepper spray? Don't believe it. I was given a canister of that when I worked for the Alaska DOT. (They were trying to discourage us from carrying firearms to cut down on potential liability).

I certainly wouldn't entrust my life to pepper spray. We used it on porcupines instead. Laughing Worked pretty well on them, I must say.

First instruction on the bear spray canister: DO NOT APPLY THIS DIRECTLY TO YOUR SKIN. (I guess they were afraid that people would think it worked like 'bug repellent'.

Further instruction:
Wait until the bear is 10-15 FEET away, and then spray it directly in the eyes. Ten to fifteen feet??? Rolling EyesAnyone who has seen a bear run, they cover that distance in LESS than a second. Either you deter the bear (if it really wasn't all that interested) or you mace it, get it mad, and does enough damage to kill you 5 times over.

Only solution for a problem bear? 12 Ga shotgun with SLUGS. (NOT birdshot or buckshot, a sandblasted bear is a VERY angry bear.)



Interesting. How would a handgun fair against a bear? .45 1911 specifically?

Diesel47
Posted - 2011.08.08 22:36:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Diesel47 on 08/08/2011 22:40:06
Originally by: Wilhelm Riley
Edited by: Wilhelm Riley on 08/08/2011 22:29:04
Originally by: Diesel47

Isn't being in control of something... owning it?

edit: If that spanish woman can somehow control the sun.. Then hell she owns the ****er! But I doubt she has any control over it. Very Happy



She can say she owns it but I'd sooner shoot myself in the foot than pay her a penny to sit in the sun.

And no, controlling isn't owning. You don't see Admirals taking their multi billion dollar aircraft carriers on vacations with just their families do you.


Why not shoot her instead?

I'd say the admiral isn't fully in control of the aircraft carrier.

That is property of the United States.
Which is owned by the US citizens.
Who gave Obama rights to rule.
So Obama "owns" and controls the carrier, and gives permission to the admirals to use in the way he sees fit.


I think if obama wanted to waste more tax payer dollars he could rent out a carrier and go cruising on it.

Ultim8Evil
Ministry Of Eternal Disorder
Posted - 2011.08.08 22:40:00 - [45]
 

Is there some sort of competition to get Obama mentioned in as many threads as possible?

If there is, I didn't get this memo.

Wilhelm Riley
Posted - 2011.08.08 22:41:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Wilhelm Riley on 08/08/2011 22:41:29
Originally by: Diesel47


I think if obama wanted to waste more tax payer dollars he could rent out a carrier and go cruising on it.


Ahh yes, but that would be renting it from the Navy, implying he was neither in control nor a steward. And if he rented it, it would be with taxpayer money and in the end wouldn't it be the taxpayers aircraft carrier?

...something is wrong, I feel like we've gone off topic. What was this thread about? A dog.. pumpkin.. a boar?

Diesel47
Posted - 2011.08.08 22:44:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Wilhelm Riley
Edited by: Wilhelm Riley on 08/08/2011 22:41:29
Originally by: Diesel47


I think if obama wanted to waste more tax payer dollars he could rent out a carrier and go cruising on it.


Ahh yes, but that would be renting it from the Navy, implying he was neither in control nor a steward. And if he rented it, it would be with taxpayer money and in the end wouldn't it be the taxpayers aircraft carrier?

...something is wrong, I feel like we've gone off topic. What was this thread about? A dog.. pumpkin.. a boar?


I dunno, think OP was whining about his mum getting shot Laughing

and srry for the ninja edits, I did em before seeing this post :)

Ophelia Payne
Posted - 2011.08.08 22:47:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Tattva Paalaka
Originally by: Taedrin
the fact remains that humans are nothing more than animals themselves


Yes, but animals don't kill out of hate, or revenge. Just necessity.


Chimpanzees, mongoose, Orca (not the indy capital-light), dolphins, cats, dogs, crows, polar bears (Ha!)... all been observed killing things for fun

Ultim8Evil
Ministry Of Eternal Disorder
Posted - 2011.08.08 22:50:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Ophelia Payne
Originally by: Tattva Paalaka
Originally by: Taedrin
the fact remains that humans are nothing more than animals themselves


Yes, but animals don't kill out of hate, or revenge. Just necessity.


Chimpanzees, mongoose, Orca (not the indy capital-light), dolphins, cats, dogs, crows, polar bears (Ha!)... all been observed killing things for fun


My cats pretty much do nothing else but eat, sleep, **** and kill stuff for lulz.

Diesel47
Posted - 2011.08.08 22:52:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Ophelia Payne
Originally by: Tattva Paalaka
Originally by: Taedrin
the fact remains that humans are nothing more than animals themselves


Yes, but animals don't kill out of hate, or revenge. Just necessity.


Chimpanzees, mongoose, Orca (not the indy capital-light), dolphins, cats, dogs, crows, polar bears (Ha!)... all been observed killing things for fun


Was gunna say the Orca isn't the best PVP ship.. Crow used to be the best interceptor though.


Kidding aside... I know Crows and Dolphins are extremely smart.

Crows can use tools, and even lie. How? Crows hide excess food, other crows see crows hiding food and then go eat it themselves. So some crows pretend to hide food to throw other crows off.. Amazing isn't it?

Dolphins play games with seaweed, or something like that.

Wilhelm Riley
Posted - 2011.08.08 22:53:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Diesel47

I dunno, think OP was whining about his mum getting shot Laughing

and srry for the ninja edits, I did em before seeing this post :)


I don't think the topic matters anyway, the first sentence of the first post is a logical paradox.

Diesel47
Posted - 2011.08.08 22:56:00 - [52]
 

Edited by: Diesel47 on 08/08/2011 22:56:20
Originally by: Wilhelm Riley
Originally by: Diesel47

I dunno, think OP was whining about his mum getting shot Laughing

and srry for the ninja edits, I did em before seeing this post :)


I don't think the topic matters anyway, the first sentence of the first post is a logical paradox.

"THIS IS WRONG!!!1"


Lmao, nice one. Laughing

Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2011.08.08 23:07:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Tattva Paalaka
Originally by: Taedrin
the fact remains that humans are nothing more than animals themselves


Yes, but animals don't kill out of hate, or revenge. Just necessity.


Unfortuantely, that is not the case. There are plenty of examples where animals kill out of revenge, fun, or hate.

In India, some children tormented a wolf cub in a wolf's den when the mother was away. A few days later, the mother wolf stole a baby out of one of the shacks in the village.

A recent news story on the BBC showed the results of a study which showed that birds which are abused by their parents also abuse their own chicks. None of these birds abuse their chicks out of necessity.

Various primates will form "gangs" and commit acts of violence against rival "gangs" - even if both "gangs" are part of the same community/family.

For many animals, the mere presence of another entity around them triggers a violent reaction - regardless of whether that animal is in it's own "territory" or not.

Dolphins use their echolocation ability as a sorts of ultrasound to locate where an unborn dolphin is in a pregnant dolphin and attack that location in order to kill the dolphin. Dolphins will also kill their own young for pointless reasons

Male lions will frequently kill cubs which were not fathered by that particular male.

Animals are just as capable of committing the same crimes and cruelties that humans are.


Bart Starr
Posted - 2011.08.08 23:23:00 - [54]
 

Edited by: Bart Starr on 08/08/2011 23:24:38
Originally by: LordOfDespair


Interesting. How would a handgun fair against a bear? .45 1911 specifically?


Here was an incident we had involving a brown bear and a .45 1911. I was actually working on the Park road out in Denali when this happened.

Bear attacks two backpackers, man draws .45 1911, fires a full clip, saves the woman from a potential mauling.

If you read a few comments about the incident on firearm-literate websites, you'll see it is NOT recommended to rely on a 1911 - he was probably quite lucky.

Interestingly, firearms were prohibited in National Parks until 2010. The federal Park workers and Rangers were furious when our reps/Senators in Congress changed that law. NPS workers would much prefer to continue to risk the life of backpackers, than have an occasional aggressive bear shot in self-defense. But most NPS workers are drafted out of people of the lol 'green' persuasion, so there you are. Rolling Eyes

EDIT: Several of the stories don't go into detail about the firearm, only saying '.45', but it WAS a 1911 involved in the incident.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
Posted - 2011.08.09 00:13:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Bart Starr
Edited by: Bart Starr on 08/08/2011 23:24:38
Originally by: LordOfDespair


Interesting. How would a handgun fair against a bear? .45 1911 specifically?


Here was an incident we had involving a brown bear and a .45 1911. I was actually working on the Park road out in Denali when this happened.

Bear attacks two backpackers, man draws .45 1911, fires a full clip, saves the woman from a potential mauling.

If you read a few comments about the incident on firearm-literate websites, you'll see it is NOT recommended to rely on a 1911 - he was probably quite lucky.

Interestingly, firearms were prohibited in National Parks until 2010. The federal Park workers and Rangers were furious when our reps/Senators in Congress changed that law. NPS workers would much prefer to continue to risk the life of backpackers, than have an occasional aggressive bear shot in self-defense. But most NPS workers are drafted out of people of the lol 'green' persuasion, so there you are. Rolling Eyes

EDIT: Several of the stories don't go into detail about the firearm, only saying '.45', but it WAS a 1911 involved in the incident.



It's not really the 1911 model that is unreliable. It's the .45 ACP that is not recommended for dangerous animals. Sure it's a 200+ gr round but has a speed under 1000 FPS and penetration is not going to be good.

There are 1911 framed guns using some heinous cartridges. An example of that is the .460 Rowland that has a 1600 FPS velocity on a 200+ gr round. That's mean stuff and will even penetrate most body armor.

And prior to 2010, people were still carrying in the NPS, it was just a Shoot-shovel-shutup thing.


Bart Starr
Posted - 2011.08.09 00:56:00 - [56]
 

True, none of the stories I read said anything about the ammunition used. I suppose I just have this tendency to assume ACP.

Interestingly, the NPS's response to the law change was to take the 'sour grapes' stance.

"OK, fine, firearms are legal in the Park, but discharging them is still illegal (even in cases of self-defense), and prosecutable."

Personally, I think NPS will simply downplay any obviously justifiable bear killing. They are waiting for the poor sucker who uses a firearm in a less clear-cut self-defense situation. They will probably charge the poor sucker with a felony and try to make an example of him, "SEE, this is why we didn't want guns in Denali."

So, you kill a bear in self defense, you still 'broke the law' and you are at the mercy of an NPS investigation, and you are simply hoping they choose not to prosecute. Had they prosecuted the fellow in 2010 (and, deep down, they probably wanted to), they would have ended up with a ****storm from average Alaskans/state reps.

Ophelia Payne
Posted - 2011.08.09 02:38:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Bart Starr
Edited by: Bart Starr on 08/08/2011 23:24:38
Originally by: LordOfDespair


Interesting. How would a handgun fair against a bear? .45 1911 specifically?


Here was an incident we had involving a brown bear and a .45 1911. I was actually working on the Park road out in Denali when this happened.

Bear attacks two backpackers, man draws .45 1911, fires a full clip, saves the woman from a potential mauling.

If you read a few comments about the incident on firearm-literate websites, you'll see it is NOT recommended to rely on a 1911 - he was probably quite lucky.

Interestingly, firearms were prohibited in National Parks until 2010. The federal Park workers and Rangers were furious when our reps/Senators in Congress changed that law. NPS workers would much prefer to continue to risk the life of backpackers, than have an occasional aggressive bear shot in self-defense. But most NPS workers are drafted out of people of the lol 'green' persuasion, so there you are. Rolling Eyes

EDIT: Several of the stories don't go into detail about the firearm, only saying '.45', but it WAS a 1911 involved in the incident.


Also depends on the size of a bear, a North American black bear will get it's ass kicked by a .45 ACP. A polar bear on the other hand will take said .45 from you and shove it up your...

Anyway, long story short is a S&W 500 Shocked

Lindsay Logan
Posted - 2011.08.09 19:44:00 - [58]
 

It is just a bear. It attacked humans, and could have done so again.

I, for one, value human life over that of an animal.

Kijo Rikki
Caldari
Point of No Return
Waterboard
Posted - 2011.08.09 20:09:00 - [59]
 

I wonder if by the same logic, if some idiot walks out onto the tarmac of an airport and gets sucked into the jet turbine of a 747 and gets maimed, should we shoot down the airliner before it has a chance to do it again?

Also....manbearpig


Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2011.08.09 20:27:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Kijo Rikki
I wonder if by the same logic, if some idiot walks out onto the tarmac of an airport and gets sucked into the jet turbine of a 747 and gets maimed, should we shoot down the airliner before it has a chance to do it again?

Also....manbearpig




An airplane is incapable of seeking out more humans to suck up into the jet turbine. A more appropriate analogy would be:
"I wonder if by the same logic, if some idiot walks out onto the tarmac of an airport, and the pilot intentionally turns on the engines so the idiot gets sucked into the jet turbine of a 747 and gets maimed (killed - you don't survive these encounters), should we shoot the pilot before he has a chance to do it again?"

The reason why animals are killed after these events is because they are not fearful of humans and will not keep their distance from human habitat. Yeah, it's not fair to animals, since we take virtually all of the land on the planet for ourselves, but as I said - nature is a cruel mistress. Any one of these animals would do the same to us if they had such an advantage over us.


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