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Ethan Lang
Posted - 2011.08.05 16:18:00 - [1]
 

Am I the only one who's finding battleships not all that impressive and/or useful? Their damage, although high on paper, is very much mitigated by speed and signature radius. Their tank also seems high on paper, but their large size and slow speed mean they take almost full damage (before resistances) from everything.
I've been playing around with them for a few weeks and honestly, I'm struggling to find a situation where I'd rather have a BS over my HAC. Not to mention a T3 Cruiser.

Please correct my noob thinking on this.

mxzf
Minmatar
Shovel Bros
Posted - 2011.08.05 16:24:00 - [2]
 

I think it might get a bit better with proper (read maxed) support skills, but I'm running into about the same thing. I like being able to move from one spot to another quicker than a snail could, thank you very much, lol. For now I'm planning on mostly sticking with my smaller ships, the only thing I'm thinking about training for large ships for are capitals with jump drives and Black Ops, both of which simply aren't replicated in cruiser size ships.

FT Diomedes
Gallente
Factio Paucorum
Posted - 2011.08.05 16:44:00 - [3]
 

What are you using it for? Most ship classes in Eve have a fairly specific set of tasks they do well. The battleships excel at killing other battleships and BCs. They do require a lot more SP to really be effective, so low skilled pilots may find them underwhelming. There is a ton of difference between a BS with named mods, BS IV, moderate drone skills and moderate cap skills and a T2 fit BS V, high support skilled ship.

Mini T
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.08.05 16:53:00 - [4]
 

Um, yea, you're doing it wrong.

Daminma
Posted - 2011.08.05 17:12:00 - [5]
 

All ships are tools with a specific purpose.

So you either:
A - Don't have the skill to make it perform it's purpose

or

B - You are using the wrong ship for your purpose.

Either way the problem is with you.

Kilrayn
Posted - 2011.08.05 17:14:00 - [6]
 

For solo pve, like lvl 4 missions, if you've got the hac skills and can at least move your ship around decently, I see no reason for bs over a hac unless you want to suddenly be lazy and afk mission again. Once I got in my Ishtar, Domi's been a dust-collector since.

That said, solo pve is a small part of eve. The domi makes a great ship for newbie miners in null-sec. Comparable yield to a retriever with a MUCH better tank, and drones for defense or utility. Can't do that in a hac.

Major Galdari
Invicta.
Posted - 2011.08.05 17:21:00 - [7]
 

Nobody uses battleships nowadays!

Mini T
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.08.05 17:24:00 - [8]
 

Quote:
Nobody uses battleships nowadays!


BwaHAHAHAHAHA!

Dude, what game are you playing?

Kilrayn
Posted - 2011.08.05 17:29:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Mini T
Quote:
Nobody uses battleships nowadays!


BwaHAHAHAHAHA!

Dude, what game are you playing?


One where he can post troll comments on forums?

Mini T
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.08.05 17:30:00 - [10]
 

Quote:
One where he can post troll comments on forums?


Good point.

Aeril Malkyre
Minmatar
Sebiestor Tribe
Posted - 2011.08.05 17:43:00 - [11]
 

I love my Maelstrom.
Sure she's slow and she has a big ass, but she has guns for days.
I don't have to blow near the ammo load to get the job done that I would with some skinny cruiser.
When she speaks, things get wrecked.
Plus, I love the sound of her bada-boom.

Napalm Addiction
Posted - 2011.08.05 18:06:00 - [12]
 


Originally by: Kilrayn
For solo pve, like lvl 4 missions, if you've got the hac skills and can at least move your ship around decently, I see no reason for bs over a hac unless you want to suddenly be lazy and afk mission again. Once I got in my Ishtar, Domi's been a dust-collector since.

That said, solo pve is a small part of eve. The domi makes a great ship for newbie miners in null-sec. Comparable yield to a retriever with a MUCH better tank, and drones for defense or utility. Can't do that in a hac.



I disagree. Not only ishtar requires (a lot) more sp than the domi, but is less efficient for L4s. (you can't fit lot of guns firepower on the ishtar, only like 3 medium ions, or useless rails).

On the domi you can fit 5 350' or 5 ions blasters. A "mission gank" mwd/blaster domi can be surprisingly efficient. On the other hand, the ishtar can use tractors/salvagers better, and true, aligning in a dominix can be... annoyingly boring.

Yet, a well fitted domi will grind L4s quite faster than any ishtar and make more isk/hour, for less sp and isk investment. If you go navy/faction, the domi advantage widens. (as well, the mach makes more isk/h than any T3, at least in hisec).

Of course, for solo pvp or exploration the ishtar is light years better, and the "bait" domi has few equivalent for the role and the price.

I have seen lot's of stuff for (hisec) L4s, but at least there BS hulls are kings.

as said, for each task, it's tool.

rusty532
Posted - 2011.08.05 18:36:00 - [13]
 

As stated before it's a lack of skill that shines a light on bs weaknesses. When used with t2 guns and good supports they become a whole new beast. Abbadon's take armor gangs to a whole 'nother level and easily rip through enemy ships. Gallente don't offer much in the way of pvp but mega's are solid ships despite the critics and banzai hyperions can be effective with good logi. Caldari are kind of gimped so the most common bs seen is an armor Scorp throwing out jams. Minmatar have the best lineup of bs imo. The maelstrom can tank a gang and destroy them with crystals+blue pill. The typhoon is a great support ship that can be configured numerous ways from max gank to neuty-torp boat. The 'pest can blend into nano gangs easily with bc speed/agility and pump bs dps with dual heavy neuts. They do still have their uses.

Jak Silverheart
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.05 18:46:00 - [14]
 

Actually I was never impressed with BS's, in fact I still can't fly them. So I trained up command ships (pre T3 ship introduction) and never looked back. So instead of flying a Raven varient ship for missions which is what I probably would be doing if I went the BS path, I am flying a Nighthawk with pretty much max skills concerning it. Works out quite nicely, because for every kind of BS I somewhat like I can find a Sub BS version of it that will get the job done, and be faster/agile so I don't have to slowboat it anywhere.

Kilrayn
Posted - 2011.08.05 19:24:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Kilrayn on 05/08/2011 19:26:05
Originally by: Napalm Addiction

Originally by: Kilrayn
For solo pve, like lvl 4 missions, if you've got the hac skills and can at least move your ship around decently, I see no reason for bs over a hac unless you want to suddenly be lazy and afk mission again. Once I got in my Ishtar, Domi's been a dust-collector since.

That said, solo pve is a small part of eve. The domi makes a great ship for newbie miners in null-sec. Comparable yield to a retriever with a MUCH better tank, and drones for defense or utility. Can't do that in a hac.



I disagree. Not only ishtar requires (a lot) more sp than the domi, but is less efficient for L4s. (you can't fit lot of guns firepower on the ishtar, only like 3 medium ions, or useless rails).

On the domi you can fit 5 350' or 5 ions blasters. A "mission gank" mwd/blaster domi can be surprisingly efficient. On the other hand, the ishtar can use tractors/salvagers better, and true, aligning in a dominix can be... annoyingly boring.

Yet, a well fitted domi will grind L4s quite faster than any ishtar and make more isk/hour, for less sp and isk investment. If you go navy/faction, the domi advantage widens. (as well, the mach makes more isk/h than any T3, at least in hisec).

Of course, for solo pvp or exploration the ishtar is light years better, and the "bait" domi has few equivalent for the role and the price.

I have seen lot's of stuff for (hisec) L4s, but at least there BS hulls are kings.

as said, for each task, it's tool.



This makes sence. I never bothered putting many guns on my domi as my gunnary was terrible when I was flying it, barely training some skills now.

Edit: Also yeah, I hated warping in the Domi Sad

Zyress
Posted - 2011.08.05 20:32:00 - [16]
 

My corp recently got decc'd so I was choosing a pvp ship to move to the station we are operating out of and I asked my ceo if I should bring my Scorpion, he didn't want it, takes too long to lock and doesn't jam any better than a recon or a AE Frig.

Orlacc
Posted - 2011.08.05 21:12:00 - [17]
 

At the end of the day, it's the pilot not the ship.

baltec1
Posted - 2011.08.05 21:46:00 - [18]
 

I love my nano blaster BS.


Helena Vexar
Posted - 2011.08.06 14:05:00 - [19]
 

Edited by: Helena Vexar on 06/08/2011 14:25:42
I love all these asshats on here trying to claim it's the pilot with the problem. I will take on any one of your battleships any day of the week in a T1 cruiser and **** your face. BS suck in this game, I dont care how many skills you have. They won't hit the broadside of a barn if the target is smaller than another BS and happens to get in under 5000 meters. I don't care if you have tackle and tracking enhancers, you will still have trouble hitting BC at close range, let alone cruisers. Any smart pvp pilot up against a BS will know to get in under his guns, and after he does, it is all over for the BS. End of story. BS are a joke.

Yes, I have heard the fleet argument time and time again. BS are intended for fleets. Well if a ship needs to rely on a fleet, it doesn't speak well for its effectivness. My plated prophecy sucks ass in pvp. Put it in a logi fleet and it's a beast. Does that mean the prophecy is a good pvp ship? NO. The same thing can be said about the Maller, or the Ferox. Both are awful ships in pvp, put them in a logi fleet and they suddenly don't suck anymore. In fact, what ship doesn't shine in a fleet? Does that make them good ships? No, it makes them mediocre ships leaning on a fleet to make them halfway decent.

The fact is, a BS is great on paper, but the OP is right. The tracking on large guns is so bad at close ranges and even sometimes medium ranges when targetting smaller ships that they are not worth the amount of isk you pour into building and fitting them. BCs, cruisers and HACs can do the exact same job 100 times better, with 100 percent more mobility. All that on paper firepower is wasted because 75 percent of it never hits a target smaller than itself. And lets be honest, what good is a BS killer, if the enemy BS can't hit anything worth a damn other than other BS? Other than station bashing, which capital dreads are better suited for, BS have no real purpose. Unless a BS can somehow keep its target at 30 or 40km and remain static while firing off its guns, it will never be able to make use of its firepower and be worth a damn. This is why nobody flies them anymore.

Nomad Vherokic
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.06 14:27:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Nomad Vherokic on 06/08/2011 14:29:56
Originally by: Helena Vexar
I love all these asshats on here trying to claim it's the pilot with the problem. I will take on any one of your battleships any day of the week in a T1 cruiser and **** your face. BS suck in this game, I dont care how many skills you have. They won't hit the broadside of a barn if the target is smaller than another BS and happens to get in under 5000 meters. I don't care if you have tackle and tracking enhancers, you will still have trouble hitting BC at close range, let alone cruisers. Any smart pvp pilot up against a BS will know to get in under his guns, and after he does, it is all over for the BS. End of story. BS are a joke


Not really. A well fit Domi or Armageddon (for example) will Neut and web you whilst it's drones go 'nom nom nom' thank you very much... You can apply exactly the same argument between frigs<->cruisers and so on... There is also this thing called Target Painters, combine those with a web and scram and your lovely little frig or cruiser is doomed! Doomed! DOOOOOOMMMMEDDDDDDD I SAY!!!!!!!!!!!!

EDIT: and this is from someone who almost exclusively flies cruiser sized hulls these days...

Nor Tzestu
Amarr
Boxwater Intelligence
Posted - 2011.08.06 14:50:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Helena Vexar
Edited by: Helena Vexar on 06/08/2011 14:25:42
I love all these asshats on here trying to claim it's the pilot with the problem. I will take on any one of your battleships any day of the week in a T1 cruiser and **** your face. BS suck in this game, I dont care how many skills you have. They won't hit the broadside of a barn if the target is smaller than another BS and happens to get in under 5000 meters. I don't care if you have tackle and tracking enhancers, you will still have trouble hitting BC at close range, let alone cruisers. Any smart pvp pilot up against a BS will know to get in under his guns, and after he does, it is all over for the BS. End of story. BS are a joke.

Yes, I have heard the fleet argument time and time again. BS are intended for fleets. Well if a ship needs to rely on a fleet, it doesn't speak well for its effectivness. My plated prophecy sucks ass in pvp. Put it in a logi fleet and it's a beast. Does that mean the prophecy is a good pvp ship? NO. The same thing can be said about the Maller, or the Ferox. Both are awful ships in pvp, put them in a logi fleet and they suddenly don't suck anymore. In fact, what ship doesn't shine in a fleet? Does that make them good ships? No, it makes them mediocre ships leaning on a fleet to make them halfway decent.

The fact is, a BS is great on paper, but the OP is right. The tracking on large guns is so bad at close ranges and even sometimes medium ranges when targetting smaller ships that they are not worth the amount of isk you pour into building and fitting them. BCs, cruisers and HACs can do the exact same job 100 times better, with 100 percent more mobility. All that on paper firepower is wasted because 75 percent of it never hits a target smaller than itself. And lets be honest, what good is a BS killer, if the enemy BS can't hit anything worth a damn other than other BS? Other than station bashing, which capital dreads are better suited for, BS have no real purpose. Unless a BS can somehow keep its target at 30 or 40km and remain static while firing off its guns, it will never be able to make use of its firepower and be worth a damn. This is why nobody flies them anymore.


Trolololol. Spoken like someone who is clearly doing it wrong. You come within 5000m of even a basic fit "crap" BS like a Hyperion, you won't live to see the third volley. I could go on all day about the various BS builds for PVP that can own large numbers of BC's and HAC's in a group. I won't as it's pretty obvious your more or less clueless.

I have a whopping 3.5 mil SP. I can probably fail pilot a BS in a couple weeks. So lets settle it then. Me in a tier 1 BS, you in whatever HAC/BC/T1 cruiser you want to see go up in flames as you get "under" my guns. No talk, no crap. I'll flip a can and you can come get it and we'll put this to rest.

baltec1
Posted - 2011.08.06 14:50:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Helena Vexar
rabble.


I dont have any isssue hitting BC and cruisers burn up without much fuss too. You either have poor skills or don't fly BS.

TheMahdi
Posted - 2011.08.06 15:08:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Helena Vexar
trololol


You have no idea what you are talking about, the only guns that have trouble hitting cruisers is long range variants or lasers to some extent. But even then a web and a scram will let an MPL BS melt most cruisers. A Pest with autos for examples won't even need the web.

TheHenni
Posted - 2011.08.06 18:12:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Helena Vexar
rant

Judging by your kb stats you do seem to fall into the "it's the player not the ship" category, sorry.

Skarned
Inroads
Posted - 2011.08.06 18:19:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Daminma
All ships are tools with a specific purpose.

So you either:
A - Don't have the skill to make it perform it's purpose

or

B - You are using the wrong ship for your purpose.

Either way the problem is with you.


^ This. Battleships are fine for their purpose. Even the blaster bs are fine for their (very limited) purpose.

Alexa Akiga
Posted - 2011.08.06 18:52:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Alexa Akiga on 31/08/2011 01:58:54
Whatever

Helena Vexar
Posted - 2011.08.06 19:03:00 - [27]
 

I cant tell you how many hurricanes have owned my gedddon one on one while having them webbed and scrammed with a pretty good fit. You just cant hit anything worth a damn close range. And no it does not apply with cruisers and bcs. I can hit frigs easy with cruisers and bcs, bs guns are just really bad for amarr at least. I dont fly other races ships. But you are welcome to check my profile and skills if u think my skills are bad, because they are not.

NightmareX
Nomads
Nulli Secunda
Posted - 2011.08.06 20:12:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Helena Vexar
I love all these asshats on here trying to claim it's the pilot with the problem. I will take on any one of your battleships any day of the week in a T1 cruiser and **** your face. BS suck in this game, I dont care how many skills you have. They won't hit the broadside of a barn if the target is smaller than another BS and happens to get in under 5000 meters. I don't care if you have tackle and tracking enhancers, you will still have trouble hitting BC at close range, let alone cruisers. Any smart pvp pilot up against a BS will know to get in under his guns, and after he does, it is all over for the BS. End of story. BS are a joke.

LOL Laughing.

I'm pretty sure you wont even be able to scratch my armor tanked battleship down to 95% shield before you die a horribly death and pretty much instant death to my 1.6k DPS, 235k EHP and 90% web battleship in any T1 cruisers.

I can even do the same in a Tempest.

Jdestars
Stars Research systems Incorporation
Posted - 2011.08.06 20:36:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Jdestars on 06/08/2011 20:38:38
Originally by: Ethan Lang
Their damage, although high on paper

Paper calculation dont give you the real kind of engage Fight ..
Malus turret /missile on Lower Class vessel for exemple
Quote:
is very much mitigated by speed and signature radius.


Nerf for speed and other adjust :Finished time of nanospeed battleship over 1K m/s ( see CCP Devblog about this point)
Quote:
Their tank also seems high on paper, but their large size and slow speed mean they take almost full damage (before resistances) from everything.

Paper calculation miss some point , active tank base on Capacitor without passif resist are a paper tank when capacitor are out ( Neutra )
for exemple a caldari ship without passive EM Resist pilots with full compensation => EM resist fall down and ship have a big failure on this shield .. so you can divide the buff shield by 2

So if you read Description of Ship and use vessel in their dedicaced Role

Eve Ship are look like of check Piece ( A pawn in certain conditions can put echec and matt king )

TheKalila
Posted - 2011.08.06 20:54:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Helena Vexar
I cant tell you how many hurricanes have owned my gedddon one on one while having them webbed and scrammed with a pretty good fit. You just cant hit anything worth a damn close range. And no it does not apply with cruisers and bcs. I can hit frigs easy with cruisers and bcs, bs guns are just really bad for amarr at least. I dont fly other races ships. But you are welcome to check my profile and skills if u think my skills are bad, because they are not.


I think I see your problem: http://eve-kill.net/?a=kill_detail&kll_id=9938101


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