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blankseplocked How to build a bomb ... why extra materials are subject to moar waste
 
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Lutz Major
Posted - 2011.08.05 09:03:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Lutz Major on 11/08/2011 09:59:14
There are two types of materials, when you want to build something: raw materials and extra materials. Where the raw materials are subject to material and skill waste, it is common knowledge that extra materials aren't.
That's not true: extra materials are affected by a lower Production Efficiency skill and new: by production waste link.

tl;dr: If you have Production Efficiency V, don't read further.


The above statement holds true for only a handful of items in the manufacturing industry. Which ones, I theorize at the end.
But let's start with one example: The Shrapnel Bomb.

Bombs use raw materials and extra materials. The data dump has these numbers (without waste):

NAME | RAW MATERIALS | EXTRA MATERIALS |
---------------------------------------------
Isogen | 10.00 | 11,385.00 |
Megacyte | 10.00 | 349.00 |
Mexallon | 10.00 | 59,933.00 |
Nocxium | 10.00 | 2,268.00 |
Pyerite | 100.00 | 625,207.00 |
Tritanium | 10,000.00 | 1,370,340.00 |
Zydrine | 10.00 | 1,535.00 |
Table 1

I've a copy with ME 1050 and my character has Production Efficiency 0. With ME 1050 the material waste is one additional unit of Tritanium, the skill waste is 125%. Applying the skill waste to the raw materials (ROUND(amount * 1.25)) I get this quote:

NAME | RAW MATERIALS | EXTRA MATERIALS | SUM |
------------------------------------------------------------
Isogen | 13.00 | 11,385.00 | 11,398.00 |
Megacyte | 13.00 | 349.00 | 362.00 |
Mexallon | 13.00 | 59,933.00 | 59,946.00 |
Nocxium | 13.00 | 2,268.00 | 2,281.00 |
Pyerite | 125.00 | 625,207.00 | 625,332.00 |
Tritanium | 12,501.00 | 1,370,340.00 | 1,382,841.00 |
Zydrine | 13.00 | 1,535.00 | 1,548.00 |
Table 2: 'normal' bill of materials. Which is also the show info information.


But the actual build quote window (and this is the correct amount used up - I tested it, buy inefficiently building stuff Sad) says I need the following units:

NAME | RAW MATERIALS | EXTRA MATERIALS | SUM |
------------------------------------------------------------
Isogen | 2,859.00 | 11,385.00 | 14,244.00 |
Megacyte | 100.00 | 349.00 | 449.00 |
Mexallon | 14,996.00 | 59,933.00 | 74,929.00 |
Nocxium | 580.00 | 2,268.00 | 2,848.00 |
Pyerite | 156,427.00 | 625,207.00 | 781,634.00 |
Tritanium | 355,086.00 | 1,370,340.00 | 1,725,426.00 |
Zydrine | 396.00 | 1,535.00 | 1,931.00 |
Table 3: the build quote for ME 1050, Prod.Eff. 0

That's a near 25% increase of materials from quote in table 2!?!? Shocked


I tested it again with PE1 and came to the conclusion, that the extra materials must be subject to waste ... and indeed they are:

NAME | RAW MATERIALS | EXTRA MATERIALS | ROUND(SUM) |
------------------------------------------------------------
Isogen | 12.50 | 14,231.25 | 14,244.00 |
Megacyte | 12.50 | 436.25 | 449.00 |
Mexallon | 12.50 | 74,916.25 | 74,929.00 |
Nocxium | 12.50 | 2,835.00 | 2,848.00 |
Pyerite | 125.01 | 781,508.75 | 781,634.00 |
Tritanium | 12,500.95 | 1,712,925.00 | 1,725,426.00 |
Zydrine | 12.50 | 1,918.75 | 1,931.00 |
skill and ME waste applied to raw materials (* 1.25, no rounding), skill waste applied to extra materials (* 1.25, no rounding)

Lutz Major
Posted - 2011.08.05 09:04:00 - [2]
 

The quote window does not show a change in the extra materials (!), but transfers the skill waste to the raw materials:

NAME | ROUND(SUM) | EXTRA MATERIALS | RAW MATERIALS |
------------------------------------------------------------
Isogen | 14,244.00 | 11,385.00 | 2,859.00 |
Megacyte | 449.00 | 349.00 | 100.00 |
Mexallon | 74,929.00 | 59,933.00 | 14,996.00 |
Nocxium | 2,848.00 | 2,268.00 | 580.00 |
Pyerite | 781,634.00 | 625,207.00 | 156,427.00 |
Tritanium | 1,725,426.00 | 1,370,340.00 | 355,086.00 |
Zydrine | 1,931.00 | 1,535.00 | 396.00 |
Table 5: raw materials = round(sum) - extra materials



Another example is the Gas Cloud Harvester I:

NAME | RAW MATERIALS | EXTRA MATERIALS |
---------------------------------------------
Megacyte | 217.00 | 0.00 |
Mexallon | 3029.00 | 3,000.00 |
Nocxium | 1356.00 | 0.00 |
Pyerite | 6800.00 | 7,000.00 |
Tritanium | 11,062.00 | 10,000.00 |
Table 6: raw database numbers


I bought some ME 52 copies and had already trained my character to Production Efficiency I. Applying also the skill waste to the extra materials, I should get this quote from the in-game client:

NAME | RAW MATERIALS | EXTRA MATERIALS | ROUND(SUM) |
------------------------------------------------------------
Megacyte | 260.81 | 0.00 | 261.00 |
Mexallon | 3,640.52 | 3,600.00 | 7,241.00 |
Nocxium | 1,629.76 | 0.00 | 1,630.00 |
Pyerite | 8,172.83 | 8,400.00 | 16,573.00 |
Tritanium | 13,295.27 | 12,000.00 | 25,295.00 |
Table 7: skill (PE 1) and ME 52 waste applied to raw materials, only skill waste applied to extra materials (* 1.2) - and the actual building quote.



Oddly other extra materials like from Heavy Missile Launcher IIs or Control Towers are not subject to skill waste Sad. I checked the database for references in any way and came up with this one:

Theorem: Only materials, which are both in the raw materials (invTypeMaterials table) and the extra materials (ramTypeRequirements table) are subject to skill waste!

SELECT * FROM invTypes WHERE typeID IN (
SELECT bp.blueprintTypeID
FROM invBlueprintTypes bp, invTypeMaterials mat, ramTypeRequirements ram
WHERE bp.productTypeID = mat.typeID AND bp.blueprintTypeID = ram.typeID
AND mat.materialTypeID = ram.requiredTypeID AND ram.recycle = 0 AND ram.activityID = 1
) AND published = 1

Up came 100 blueprints, some from pirate factions (which I'm not even sure they are available). Filtering them out, leaves the list of blueprints in the next post, which are to test.

A very common item is also affected: the Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
The common material component in the raw (80) and extra materials (4) is the Rocket Fuel. Normally on a ME -4, the waste is 1.7 for skills and ME (1.2 from the PE1 skill, +50% from the negative ME). So ROUND(80 * 1.7) + 4 = 136 + 4 = 140, but actually it's 141: ROUND(80 * 1.7 + 4 * 1.2) = ROUND(136 + 4.8) = ROUND(140.8) = 141

Lutz Major
Posted - 2011.08.05 09:07:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Lutz Major on 05/08/2011 09:48:04
Blueprints to check:


Bane Javelin Torpedo Blueprint: Rocket Fuel
Bane Rage Torpedo Blueprint: Rocket Fuel
Cataclysm Fury Cruise Missile Blueprint: Rocket Fuel
Cataclysm Precision Cruise Missile Blueprint: Rocket Fuel
Concussion Bomb Blueprint: Isogen, Megacyte, Mexallon, Nocxium, Pyerite, Tritanium, Zydrine
Depleted Uranium XL Blueprint: Pyerite, Tritanium
Devastator Fury Cruise Missile Blueprint: Rocket Fuel
Devastator Precision Cruise Missile Blueprint: Rocket Fuel
Discovery Survey Probe I Blueprint: Mexallon, Pyerite, Tritanium
ECCM Projector II Blueprint: Morphite
Electron Bomb Blueprint: Isogen, Megacyte, Mexallon, Nocxium, Pyerite, Tritanium, Zydrine
Gas Cloud Harvester I Blueprint: Mexallon, Pyerite, Tritanium
Gaze Survey Probe I Blueprint: Isogen, Mexallon, Pyerite, Tritanium
Gremlin Rage Rocket Blueprint: Rocket Fuel
Gyrostabilizer II Blueprint: Morphite
Havoc Fury Heavy Missile Blueprint: Rocket Fuel
Havoc Precision Heavy Missile Blueprint: Rocket Fuel
Heat Sink II Blueprint: Morphite
Inferno Javelin Torpedo Blueprint: Rocket Fuel
Inferno Rage Torpedo Blueprint: Rocket Fuel
Juggernaut Javelin Torpedo Blueprint: Rocket Fuel
Juggernaut Rage Torpedo Blueprint: Rocket Fuel
Lockbreaker Bomb Blueprint: Isogen, Megacyte, Mexallon, Nocxium, Pyerite, Tritanium, Zydrine
Mercoxit Mining Crystal II Blueprint: Nocxium
Mjolnir Javelin Torpedo Blueprint: Rocket Fuel
Mjolnir Rage Torpedo Blueprint: Rocket Fuel
Paradise Fury Cruise Missile Blueprint: Rocket Fuel
Paradise Precision Cruise Missile Blueprint: Rocket Fuel
Scorch Bomb Blueprint: Isogen, Megacyte, Mexallon, Nocxium, Pyerite, Tritanium, Zydrine
Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Blueprint: Rocket Fuel
Scourge Precision Heavy Missile Blueprint: Rocket Fuel
Shrapnel Bomb Blueprint: Isogen, Megacyte, Mexallon, Nocxium, Pyerite, Tritanium, Zydrine
Thunderbolt Fury Heavy Missile Blueprint: Rocket Fuel
Thunderbolt Precision Heavy Missile Blueprint: Rocket Fuel
Tracking Computer II Blueprint: Morphite
Tracking Link I Blueprint: Isogen, Mexallon, Pyerite, Tritanium
Void Bomb Blueprint: Isogen, Megacyte, Mexallon, Nocxium, Pyerite, Tritanium, Zydrine
Warp Core Stabilizer II Blueprint: Morphite
Widowmaker Fury Heavy Missile Blueprint: Rocket Fuel
Widowmaker Precision Heavy Missile Blueprint: Rocket Fuel
Wrath Fury Cruise Missile Blueprint: Rocket Fuel
Wrath Precision Cruise Missile Blueprint: Rocket Fuel


If you have a character with no or low Production Efficiency skill level, it would be nice, if you could help me and check the blueprints above and post the screenshots.

It is important, that you use the actual quote window and not the show info (which still shows the wrong numbers).

I'll update the list (and try to get the common materials in - done)

Dasola
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.05 10:44:00 - [4]
 

Well controll towers only has extra materials. It was CCP´s emergency fix when they introduced PI and forgot to remove npc sale orders co people bought tons of pos structures from npc orders, recycled them and got P4 materials out of them. And ccp has not fixed that emergency fix since...

Lutz Major
Posted - 2011.08.05 12:01:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Dasola
Well controll towers only has extra materials. It was CCP´s emergency fix when they introduced PI and forgot to remove npc sale orders co people bought tons of pos structures from npc orders, recycled them and got P4 materials out of them. And ccp has not fixed that emergency fix since...
Yes. I was on the search for determining, when to apply skill waste to extra materials and when not. As towers have only extras, I was of course checking them out first hand. But they left me disappointed Sad

Skippermonkey
Tactical Knightmare
Posted - 2011.08.05 13:48:00 - [6]
 

while im sure this is all very informative, how many serious producers do not have Production Efficiency 5?

Abdiel Kavash
Caldari
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2011.08.05 15:23:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Skippermonkey
while im sure this is all very informative, how many serious producers do not have Production Efficiency 5?


If extra materials weren't affected by PE, and you only intended to build items which only have extra materials (e.g. POSes), it would mean you don't need to train PE at all.

Lutz Major
Posted - 2011.08.05 19:49:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Abdiel Kavash
Originally by: Skippermonkey
while im sure this is all very informative, how many serious producers do not have Production Efficiency 5?


If extra materials weren't affected by PE, and you only intended to build items which only have extra materials (e.g. POSes), it would mean you don't need to train PE at all.
It's not only that.

The most building programs if found online, show false values because nobody applies skill waste. Heck, even my own program was wrong ... luckily I've PE 5 Smile

Lutz Major
Posted - 2011.08.08 19:51:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Lutz Major on 08/08/2011 20:24:25
Edited by: Lutz Major on 08/08/2011 19:54:00
After another 90M of buying wired BPCs ugh, these are the final BPCs to check:

Discovery Survey Probe I Blueprint: Mexallon, Pyerite, Tritanium
Gaze Survey Probe I Blueprint: Isogen, Mexallon, Pyerite, Tritanium
Gyrostabilizer II Blueprint: Morphite
Heat Sink II Blueprint: Morphite
Mercoxit Mining Crystal II Blueprint: Nocxium**
Warp Core Stabilizer II Blueprint: Morphite

All others have proofen my theory:

Extra materials are subject to skill waste*



*)edit: If both components are in the raw and extra material section!

**) edit2: The Mercoxit has no applied waste, because the waste of the Noxcium used in both tables is removed due to the recycled Mercoxit Mining Crystal I.

Loraine Gess2
Posted - 2011.08.08 23:34:00 - [10]
 

Moon survey probes are only available via NPC stocks. No BPOs exist afaik (and no BPCs - unless they're some sort of COSMOS reward which I've never heard of).

Lutz Major
Posted - 2011.08.11 09:47:00 - [11]
 

Okay ... so I stumbled over the question, which waste could also affect the extra materials. We have:

  • material waste, influenced by the Material Efficiency Level of the blueprint: check - there is none

  • skill waste, based upon the builders Production Efficiency skill level: check - proven above

  • production waste, based on which assembly line the item is being build (e.g. station or rapid assembly array): to test


Production waste is the waste applied by the assembly line in which the job is executed. Assembly lines with a baseMaterialMultiplier > 1 are only available at:

* Advanced Large Ship Assembly Array
* Advanced Medium Ship Assembly Array
* Advanced Small Ship Assembly Array
* Rapid Equipment Assembly Array

The Ship Assembly Arrays have all a baseMaterialMultiplier of 1.1; the Rapid Equipment Array has an multiplier of 1.2
Other lines have a baseMaterialMultiplier of 1 and won't affect the materials needed.

We already know, that extra materials create only skill waste when the same materials are available in the raw materials, so a SQL query narrows the search for possibly items (which have common materials in the invTypeMaterials and rawTypeRequirements table as well can be produced by the above assemblies) down to:

* ECCM Projector II
* Gas Cloud Harvester I (ME 52: standard - rapid)
* Gyrostabilizer II (ME -4: standard - rapid)
* Heat Sink II
* Tracking Computer II (ME -4: standard - rapid)
* Tracking Link I (ME 0: standard - rapid)
* Warp Core Stabilizer II

To make a long story short: yes, extra materials are also subject to production waste. To remove a bit of math, I tested this time with a character, who has Production Efficiency V. I linked the actual game quotes in the list above and will give the example for the Gas Cloud Harvester I:
|=============================================|
| NAME | RAW MATERIALS | EXTRA MATERIALS |
|=============================================|
| Megacyte | 217.00 | |
| Mexallon | 3,029.00 | 3,000.00 |
| Nocxium | 1,356.00 | |
| Pyerite | 6,800.00 | 7,000.00 |
| Tritanium | 11,062.00 | 10,000.00 |
|---------------------------------------------|
Raw and extra materials from the database


Lutz Major
Posted - 2011.08.11 09:48:00 - [12]
 

This is the actual quote from the game:
|============================================================|
| NAME | REQUIRED | MISSING | DMG/JOB | WASTE |
|============================================================|
| Raw Material (5x) | | | | |
|------------------------------------------------------------|
| Megacyte | 217 | 217 | 100.00% | |
| Mexallon | 3,035 | 6,035 | 100.00% | 0.1% |
| Nocxium | 1,359 | 1,359 | 100.00% | 0.2% |
| Pyerite | 6,813 | 13,813 | 100.00% | 0.1% |
| Tritanium | 11,083 | 21,083 | 100.00% | 0.1% |
|------------------------------------------------------------|
| Extra Material (3x) | | | | |
|------------------------------------------------------------|
| Mexallon | 3,000 | 6,035 | 100.00% | |
| Pyerite | 7,000 | 13,813 | 100.00% | |
| Tritanium | 10,000 | 21,083 | 100.00% | |
|------------------------------------------------------------|
| Skill (1x) | | | | |
|------------------------------------------------------------|
| Industry | 1 | 1 | | |
|------------------------------------------------------------|
Quote for: Gas Cloud Harvester I, Material Efficiency Level: 52
Production Efficiency Skill: V, Production Slot Modifier: 1.0


As example: Pyerite 6,800 * (1.0 + (baseWaste / (1 + ME))) = 6,800 * (1.0 + 0.1 / (1 + 52)) = ROUND(6812.83) = 6813; there is no skill waste because I've PE V!

Now for the Rapid Equipment Assembly Array, which has an material modifier of 120%. It is common 'knowledge' that only raw materials are affected by the baseMaterialMultiplier. So my Pyerite quantity should be 6,800 * (1.2 + (baseWaste / (1 + ME))) = 6,800 * (1.2 + 0.1 / (1 + 52)) = ROUND(8172.83) = 8,173

Here is the (text) quote from the game:
|============================================================|
| NAME | REQUIRED | MISSING | DMG/JOB | WASTE |
|============================================================|
| Raw Material (5x) | | | | |
|------------------------------------------------------------|
| Megacyte | 261 | 261 | 100.00% | 16.8% |
| Mexallon | 4,241 | 7,241 | 100.00% | 28.5% |
| Nocxium | 1,630 | 1,630 | 100.00% | 16.8% |
| Pyerite | 9,573 | 16,573 | 100.00% | 28.9% |
| Tritanium | 15,295 | 25,295 | 100.00% | 27.6% |
|------------------------------------------------------------|
| Extra Material (3x) | | | | |
|------------------------------------------------------------|
| Mexallon | 3,000 | 7,241 | 100.00% | |
| Pyerite | 7,000 | 16,573 | 100.00% | |
| Tritanium | 10,000 | 25,295 | 100.00% | |
|------------------------------------------------------------|
| Skill (1x) | | | | |
|------------------------------------------------------------|
| Industry | 1 | 1 | | |
|------------------------------------------------------------|
Quote for: Gas Cloud Harvester I, Material Efficiency Level: 52
Production Efficiency Skill: V, Production Slot Modifier: 1.2

The Pyerite requirement is 9,573 instead of the pre-calculated 8,173. The missing 1,400 units come from the production waste of the extra material Pyerite: 7,000 * 0.2 = 1,400

Lutz Major
Posted - 2011.08.11 09:49:00 - [13]
 

In math terms (and this should only be an example!!!!) building Gas Cloud Harvesters Is in a station (1.0/1.0) nets 167M per week, on an Equipment Assembly Array (0.75/1.0) 223M, on a Rapid Equipment Array (0.65/1.2) without production waste -344M and with production waste -416M ! (I said it's only an example Wink)


Conclusio: Although this is (again) only a border situation, it shows that extra materials are indeed affected by production and skill waste. It also shows how assembly arrays with material modifiers really work. Those seven items, where the extra materials are affected by production waste, might not be the Crème de la Crème, but what if CCP introduces new items or new assembly lines? Until now, I haven't found a production builder online or Excel sheet, which calculates the correct values. Sure - PE V is mandatory for any serious producer, but even people with lower Production Efficiency level should have a right to get correct quotes.

Linda Shadowborn
Gallente
Dark Steel Industries
Posted - 2011.08.11 17:10:00 - [14]
 

nice work :) and as you said if using some arrays it is important to know. and knowing is..


 

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