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Damar Rocarion
Posted - 2011.08.11 04:23:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Damar Rocarion on 11/08/2011 04:25:22
Originally by: Paul J Keating
But consider that the Protectorate has captured planets and refers to these homes as 'resources' to be denied to the enemy. It is quite hard for those who desire peace to sound convincing to Federation at large.


I believe Seriphyn once referred certain captured systems as "buffer zone" (that is, until I bothered to re-take them) so go figure. I repeat my own stance in the matter; I dont care what people call occupied systems or what state does with them. I simply take part in capturing them to rub it into certain peoples faces who swore that only place protectorate would ever occupy would be lavatories of Enaluri V station.

Does not even matter if we lose the systems now: We were proven right, they were proven wrong and in the end it's the only thing which counts.

Damar Rocarion
Brigadier General

Altarr Orkot
Caldari
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
Posted - 2011.08.11 07:05:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Desiderya

Two different things here. There was a pretty muched forced ceasefire agreement after the liberation of Caldari Prime. The war that is going on under the CONCORD militia act was not forced upon the federation by the State. It was a mutual agreement since both parties did not desire peace.
And, I might add, do not desire peace to this very day. Only accusing State forces of prolonging this war is highly biased.


Well when the FDU have a thread hooting about how great their invasion is I'll tell them off too. But this is about the righteousness of the State invading others.

Vikarion
Caldari
State Trade Consortium
Posted - 2011.08.11 07:10:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Altarr Orkot
Originally by: Desiderya

Two different things here. There was a pretty muched forced ceasefire agreement after the liberation of Caldari Prime. The war that is going on under the CONCORD militia act was not forced upon the federation by the State. It was a mutual agreement since both parties did not desire peace.
And, I might add, do not desire peace to this very day. Only accusing State forces of prolonging this war is highly biased.


Well when the FDU have a thread hooting about how great their invasion is I'll tell them off too. But this is about the righteousness of the State invading others.


The difference, of course, is that you aid the FDU and shoot at State forces. Actions speak far louder than promised possible rebukes. Your actions show you to be a threat to every living Caldari.

Altarr Orkot
Caldari
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
Posted - 2011.08.11 07:49:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Vikarion

The difference, of course, is that you aid the FDU and shoot at State forces. Actions speak far louder than promised possible rebukes. Your actions show you to be a threat to every living Caldari.


Sounds like the kind of overreaction one might expect from a fascist.

Paul J Keating
Gallente
The Light on the Hill
Posted - 2011.08.11 08:29:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Damar Rocarion

Does not even matter if we lose the systems now: We were proven right, they were proven wrong and in the end it's the only thing which counts.

Damar Rocarion
Brigadier General



Would you support a peaceful handover of captured systems and a wider peace effort General Rocarion?

Damar Rocarion
Posted - 2011.08.11 08:31:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Altarr Orkot
Well when the FDU have a thread hooting about how great their invasion is I'll tell them off too.


Done.

Desiderya
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Posted - 2011.08.11 12:14:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Altarr Orkot

Well when the FDU have a thread hooting about how great their invasion is I'll tell them off too. But this is about the righteousness of the State invading others.


The side winning territories in a mutually declared war is hardly 'invading' in the classical sense.
Also please be a bit more thoughtful about using the word 'fascist' since you seem to be a bit lost about the meaning of this term.

Diana Kim
Caldari
Wolfsbrigade
Posted - 2011.08.14 09:44:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Altarr Orkot

We already have Caldari Prime, is that what you're fighting for? Because it's been under the control of the State for years now. If you want to protect it perhaps you should be standing a post in orbit, not building an empire light years away. As is the war is seeing millions of Caldari die in a war that you seem happy to prolong until the day State has no 'human resources' left, and for what? To satiate the egos of fascists like you and Heth?

We are fighting for our 'human resources', not against them, like you people in I-RED do, by accusing State loyalists of piracy they never committed.
And do you know the meaning of the word 'fascist'?

Altarr Orkot
Caldari
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
Posted - 2011.08.14 12:50:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Altarr Orkot on 14/08/2011 13:00:46
Originally by: Diana Kim
And do you know the meaning of the word 'fascist'?


Yes. My apologies to you Ms. Kim, as a dedicated servant of the Empress and the 24th Imperial Crusade I'm sure you no longer subscribe to Heth's fascism. It was incorrect of me to refer to you as a fascist, my mistake. Also to Vikarion, apologies, as you also similarly not support Heth's regime.

Vikarion
Caldari
State Trade Consortium
Posted - 2011.08.14 17:18:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Altarr Orkot
Edited by: Altarr Orkot on 14/08/2011 13:00:46
Originally by: Diana Kim
And do you know the meaning of the word 'fascist'?


Yes. My apologies to you Ms. Kim, as a dedicated servant of the Empress and the 24th Imperial Crusade I'm sure you no longer subscribe to Heth's fascism. It was incorrect of me to refer to you as a fascist, my mistake. Also to Vikarion, apologies, as you also similarly not support Heth's regime.


Heth doesn't have a "regime", you ignorant lemming. When conducting your propaganda campaigns, you might consider not simply cutting and pasting from the FDU/Elutherian Guard/Jaques Roden playbook. But then, they are your lords and masters, so...

Nonetheless, I am loyal to the State. Now, and always. You, on the other hand, along with your whole organization, seek its destruction.

Altarr Orkot
Caldari
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
Posted - 2011.08.14 23:28:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Vikarion
Heth doesn't have a "regime", you ignorant lemming. When conducting your propaganda campaigns, you might consider not simply cutting and pasting from the FDU/Elutherian Guard/Jaques Roden playbook. But then, they are your lords and masters, so...

Nonetheless, I am loyal to the State. Now, and always. You, on the other hand, along with your whole organization, seek its destruction.



Which State would that be? The Caldari State under the corporations with the guidance of the CEP? Or the State of a fascist dictator who seeks absolute power for himself?

Desiderya
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Posted - 2011.08.15 00:28:00 - [42]
 

There's a huge difference between seeking something and actually having it.

Dex Nederland
Caldari
Lai Dai Infinity Systems
Posted - 2011.08.15 02:29:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Altarr Orkot
Originally by: Vikarion
Heth doesn't have a "regime", you ignorant lemming. When conducting your propaganda campaigns, you might consider not simply cutting and pasting from the FDU/Elutherian Guard/Jaques Roden playbook. But then, they are your lords and masters, so...

Nonetheless, I am loyal to the State. Now, and always. You, on the other hand, along with your whole organization, seek its destruction.



Which State would that be? The Caldari State under the corporations with the guidance of the CEP? Or the State of a fascist dictator who seeks absolute power for himself?

The Federation refers to the State and its corporations as fascist regardless of the whether the CEP is managing the foreign relations of the corporations or whether the corporations are doing so independently.

The CEP agreed to the CONCORD Milita War and Ishukone has been playing both sides from the start. How about you fall in line with the CEP's foreign policy?

You, Ishukone, care for nothing more than your bottom line, and do not care who you have to sell out to do it, Caldari or otherwise. The Gallente taught you well.

KK's CEO is popular with the average employee of multiple megacorporations and many of his ideas find resonance with them, he was one of them not long ago. He managed to bring attention and reform to a slew of issues, which many of the State's detractors had been harping on for decades. Then a popular individual is made CEO of a large corporation and enacts many called for reforms, but now we are even more fascist.

Why did the corporations outside of the KK-bloc go along with these reforms? Because a nobody (Tibus Heth) within the KK-bloc managed to start a popular rebellion (something the Federation attempted multiple times in the past with little success) and find financial backers to put him at the controls of one of the largest corporations in the cluster. The other State corporations, including Ishukone, would prefer not to see it repeated in their own holdings.

As for your assertion that Tibus Heth is a fascist dictator of the State, if true the dictator is doing a horrible job controlling his state.

And before your pet Federal advocate comes in and calls me a liar, I will go ahead and point to a previous instance of him doing so and save him and I the trouble.

Paul J Keating
Gallente
The Light on the Hill
Posted - 2011.08.16 01:58:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Paul J Keating on 16/08/2011 02:02:36
Edited by: Paul J Keating on 16/08/2011 02:01:00
Originally by: Dex Nederland
The Federation refers to the State and its corporations as fascist regardless of the whether the CEP is managing the foreign relations of the corporations or whether the corporations are doing so independently.

The CEP agreed to the CONCORD Milita War and Ishukone has been playing both sides from the start. How about you fall in line with the CEP's foreign policy?

You, Ishukone, care for nothing more than your bottom line, and do not care who you have to sell out to do it, Caldari or otherwise. The Gallente taught you well.

KK's CEO is popular with the average employee of multiple megacorporations and many of his ideas find resonance with them, he was one of them not long ago. He managed to bring attention and reform to a slew of issues, which many of the State's detractors had been harping on for decades. Then a popular individual is made CEO of a large corporation and enacts many called for reforms, but now we are even more fascist.

Why did the corporations outside of the KK-bloc go along with these reforms? Because a nobody (Tibus Heth) within the KK-bloc managed to start a popular rebellion (something the Federation attempted multiple times in the past with little success) and find financial backers to put him at the controls of one of the largest corporations in the cluster. The other State corporations, including Ishukone, would prefer not to see it repeated in their own holdings.

As for your assertion that Tibus Heth is a fascist dictator of the State, if true the dictator is doing a horrible job controlling his state.

And before your pet Federal advocate comes in and calls me a liar, I will go ahead and point to a previous instance of him doing so and save him and I the trouble.


I can assure you that not everyone in the Federation thinks the corporations are fascist, but Tibus Heth and his government probably is.

And from what I can see the people of the State still can't vote for their leader or government representatives, nor can they exercise some of the basic human liberties such as free speech without getting a visit from Provists or their corporate police at night. Quite sad really.


Simca Develon
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
Posted - 2011.08.16 02:14:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Paul J Keating


And from what I can see the people of the State still can't vote for their leader or government representatives, nor can they exercise some of the basic human liberties such as free speech without getting a visit from Provists or their corporate police at night. Quite sad really.




That is a gross overstatement, but by all means keep up the propaganda it is rather amusing.

Paul J Keating
Gallente
The Light on the Hill
Posted - 2011.08.16 02:29:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Simca Develon
That is a gross overstatement, but by all means keep up the propaganda it is rather amusing.


My dear, saying it isn't so doesn't make it any easier for those who have suffered at their hands. Though it is even sadder that some in the Federation seem to want to copy this repressive model.

Valdezi
Amarr
Intaki Security and Intelligence
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
Posted - 2011.08.16 02:39:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Vikarion
Heth doesn't have a "regime", you ignorant lemming. When conducting your propaganda campaigns, you might consider not simply cutting and pasting from the FDU/Elutherian Guard/Jaques Roden playbook. But then, they are your lords and masters, so...

Nonetheless, I am loyal to the State. Now, and always. You, on the other hand, along with your whole organization, seek its destruction.



Vikarion, I think you might find that in politics, a regime is the form of government: the set of rules, cultural or social norms, etc. that regulate the operation of government and its interactions with society.

Heth's control of the CPD would certainly fall under that understanding.

And here's the rub. I say that you, Vikarion, are an enemy of the state by your support of a regime that undermines the collective conditions on which it was formed.

The poison you consistently spit at I-RED, the underhanded sordid backroom manouvering that you undertake in order to destroy us is all symptomatic of this fact, you villainous worm.

Alain Octirant
Gallente
Federal Nationalist Party
Posted - 2011.08.16 02:41:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Simca Develon
Originally by: Paul J Keating


And from what I can see the people of the State still can't vote for their leader or government representatives, nor can they exercise some of the basic human liberties such as free speech without getting a visit from Provists or their corporate police at night. Quite sad really.




That is a gross overstatement, but by all means keep up the propaganda it is rather amusing.


I guess the turning of the coat is complete. How does that blueshirt fit you now, Madame?

Here I was bullying Vermanek, but it's sad when they go the other way.


Simca Develon
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
Posted - 2011.08.16 03:46:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Alain Octirant
Originally by: Simca Develon
Originally by: Paul J Keating


And from what I can see the people of the State still can't vote for their leader or government representatives, nor can they exercise some of the basic human liberties such as free speech without getting a visit from Provists or their corporate police at night. Quite sad really.




That is a gross overstatement, but by all means keep up the propaganda it is rather amusing.


I guess the turning of the coat is complete. How does that blueshirt fit you now, Madame?

Here I was bullying Vermanek, but it's sad when they go the other way.




The blue shirt fits just fine. It always has. Now the green one I had to wear when serving in the FDU was comfortable, but just never felt right.

I'm not going the other way. I'm going back to where I was.

Alain Octirant
Gallente
Federal Nationalist Party
Posted - 2011.08.16 05:00:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Simca Develon

The blue shirt fits just fine. It always has. Now the green one I had to wear when serving in the FDU was comfortable, but just never felt right.

I'm not going the other way. I'm going back to where I was.


Then perhaps, my dear lady, you will come to understand in the fullness of time, that there is a vast difference between those who wear a blue shirt, and blueshirts.

Altarr Orkot
Caldari
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
Posted - 2011.08.16 10:41:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Dex Nederland
The Federation refers to the State and its corporations as fascist regardless of the whether the CEP is managing the foreign relations of the corporations or whether the corporations are doing so independently.

The CEP agreed to the CONCORD Milita War and Ishukone has been playing both sides from the start. How about you fall in line with the CEP's foreign policy?

You, Ishukone, care for nothing more than your bottom line, and do not care who you have to sell out to do it, Caldari or otherwise. The Gallente taught you well.

KK's CEO is popular with the average employee of multiple megacorporations and many of his ideas find resonance with them, he was one of them not long ago. He managed to bring attention and reform to a slew of issues, which many of the State's detractors had been harping on for decades. Then a popular individual is made CEO of a large corporation and enacts many called for reforms, but now we are even more fascist.

Why did the corporations outside of the KK-bloc go along with these reforms? Because a nobody (Tibus Heth) within the KK-bloc managed to start a popular rebellion (something the Federation attempted multiple times in the past with little success) and find financial backers to put him at the controls of one of the largest corporations in the cluster. The other State corporations, including Ishukone, would prefer not to see it repeated in their own holdings.

As for your assertion that Tibus Heth is a fascist dictator of the State, if true the dictator is doing a horrible job controlling his state.

And before your pet Federal advocate comes in and calls me a liar, I will go ahead and point to a previous instance of him doing so and save him and I the trouble.


Right, so dictating policies, directing the industrial output of the Big 8 through the CPD, taking the Caldari State to war and having his own paramilitary forces independent of the Home Guard make him 'just' the CEO of KK.

The simple existence of the CEP, along with corporate disagreements, don't really mean anything. Look at the Empress Jamyl I, she has her Privy Council, her Chancellor and her bureaucracy, but I'm sure you would agree she can exercise dictatorial power. Yet factions and Houses within the Empire still disagree, bicker and sometimes fight amongst themselves.

Fortunately Heth doesn't have total control yet, since he apparently hasn't found a good way to accuse the other CEOs of being 'un-Caldari' and replacing them with his cronies.

And the Caldari megacorps have arguably not been anywhere near fascist since the first War, but Heth is, and he is a danger to the long term wellbeing of the Caldari people.

Hamish Grayson
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
Posted - 2011.08.16 13:20:00 - [52]
 

Pilot Altarr Orkot,

You have a very...interesting and unique interpretation of current events within the Caldari State, the State's political organization, the Caldari people's culture and Ishukone's political objectives and corporate climate. I would like to invite you to the FTL channel Heiian College as I feel that this would be a more appropriate venue to discuss this topic.

Words spoken here have consequences in space my friend. At the college you are less likely draw the ire of pilots with more wealth, influence and military prowess than yourself.

Respectfully,
Hamish Grayson

Simca Develon
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
Posted - 2011.08.16 18:13:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Simca Develon on 16/08/2011 18:13:58
Originally by: Alain Octirant

Then perhaps, my dear lady, you will come to understand in the fullness of time, that there is a vast difference between those who wear a blue shirt, and blueshirts.


I understand the difference, and knew what you were trying to say. Forgive me for having a little bit of fun with it. I guess some people have a hard time with sarcasm.

Alain Octirant
Gallente
Federal Nationalist Party
Posted - 2011.08.16 20:17:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Simca Develon
Edited by: Simca Develon on 16/08/2011 18:13:58
Originally by: Alain Octirant

Then perhaps, my dear lady, you will come to understand in the fullness of time, that there is a vast difference between those who wear a blue shirt, and blueshirts.


I understand the difference, and knew what you were trying to say. Forgive me for having a little bit of fun with it. I guess some people have a hard time with sarcasm.


Madame, you grieve me. Surely there's no humour in Heth's state? It is no surprise then, the friction between Ishukone-Raata and the blueshirts.

Comedians and Fascists never did get on.

Simca Develon
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
Posted - 2011.08.16 20:32:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Alain Octirant

Madame, you grieve me. Surely there's no humour in Heth's state? It is no surprise then, the friction between Ishukone-Raata and the blueshirts.

Comedians and Fascists never did get on.


Now you sound like Altarr. You throwing around the word fascist I can understand at least.

Katrina Oniseki
Caldari
Revenent Defence Corperation
Ishuk-Raata Enforcement Directive
Posted - 2011.08.18 07:45:00 - [56]
 

It's sad that a simple congratulatory message from one ally to another has turned into another argument full of insulting and snide remarks.


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