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Leah Pendragon
Posted - 2011.08.05 15:05:00 - [451]
 

Originally by: Viceroy
Stuff


Don't allow JF's to Cyno into low sec. That would be interesting. Won't happen but would certainly be interesting.

filingo rapongo
Vivicide
ROMANIAN-LEGION
Posted - 2011.08.05 15:06:00 - [452]
 

so when are sov 4 miniskirts and mens jackets coming out? i presume there are specific clothing lines planned for 0.0

Abrazzar
Posted - 2011.08.05 15:13:00 - [453]
 

Originally by: DaiZom B
I see. But still: A big force can this way hit any number of systems and can only be countered by an equal or bigger force. So entity A may steal your stuff each and every day and you can not do anything about it since your force just isn't big enough. IMHO it is not about giving a small force an opportunity to steal something but to encourage to use a small gang and not a big blob. This is the key issue. If you manage that all doors are open.

If you cannot counter the larger force, you are screwed as an alliance in 0.0 anyway.

A single big blob coming in, will then encounter another big blob at the next gate down the pipe. At worst it'd be a normal blob vs blob lag fest.

Also, the sites are too small to justify a big blob; if 12 ships can finish off a site, 120 more on that site will just sit there and be a giant waste of time. It'd be more efficient to split the blob into smaller gangs and raid several systems simultaneously.

Also, while you are off with all your pilots to raid some alliance, all your own sites at home are vulnerable to a third party.

Biggest difficulty will be balancing the benefits of those sites to motivate people in actually building them compared to the risk and effort to maintain and defend them.

Psihius
Caldari
Anarchist Dawn
U N K N O W N
Posted - 2011.08.05 15:14:00 - [454]
 

Edited by: Psihius on 05/08/2011 15:22:35
Edited by: Psihius on 05/08/2011 15:19:24
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Edited by: CCP Greyscale on 05/08/2011 11:10:25
Originally by: Teirna
re: scaling PVE encounters

>> No, no, no!
>> Please not. This is a horrible, ugly idea. Completely artificial and immersion breaking.

>Can you explain your reasoning here further? This isn't a reaction I was expecting.

It smacks of a WOW style solution. One of the great things about games like EQ for pvp minded players was that some content required power. Some goals should only be achievable by those with the power to achieve them (numbers and gear wise).

If implemented badly this would allow an 'all content for all!' type deal which would break the feel of the game. 20 high sp characters in t3 ships should be able to achieve more than 10 low sp characters in t1 battleships, both in PVP and PVE.

There should be plenty for the smaller group to do, but it should be bridge content to the 'better' stuff.

OFC, a potential compromise is that the 'good' stuff is in nullsec requiring sov. This by definition requires a capable force to control the region to start with (which may be where you are heading anyway).




Would you be more comfortable if we had low-difficulty/reward content (anoms etc) scaling up to mid-difficulty/reward, but we kept the high-difficulty/reward stuff as it is now where there's a minimum threshold?


Sorry to high-jack the discussion, but I want to add to this my own opinion/suggestion.

I always dreamed of PvE that is not static in numbers, but is changing on the go. Something that reacts on player actions, like if a high SP player warps in in high-damage ships, some pirates just burn their engines away and warp off in fear (a reason to use MWD and warp distruptor/warp scrambler in PvE?), or they escalate in numbers to shred the player to peaces and it becomes a group PvE content.
And of course it should not be just increase in numbers focusing the tank - the AI should be changes to allow NPC's to focus multiple players, change targets and so on.
The margin for change should be really wide - from 50-60% warping off (if they have the time - player should be able to identify the running away's to kill them first) to escalating the power 10-20x (tops) to become the group content witch just can't be done by "master octopus". It should escalate in quality more than in numbers - the params should vary. One day you get a 10x escalation in numbers of dumb battleships, the other day your friend gets blown up by a sudden arrival of a 5-6 high-grade ships that just shred him to peaces because he didn't react at the threat or didn't call friends to deal with them.
Escalation should be dynamic, you should never know if it will be at warp in or then you are half done. Warping in with friends? Well, the chance for the escalation should be higher, but there should be group PvE content added to be available from the start.

Essentially it should look more close to PvP.

Just imagine - a character is running an anomaly with his friend. There is no escalation (or some). Then come some PvP enemies and they warp in for an easy kill. KBOOM. Escalation spawn - PvP'ers panic, trying to warp out, many die. Probably runners die too or they are lucky and get away.

Huh, my imagination just made a cyno jump, I should stop before I warp out of the system grid :)

Oh, and a good one! The NPC's that have cloaks. Sudden declock of a few bombers can make things very spicy :)


This way there can be content that provides even greater rewards, but adding real danger for the player to be destroyed. And using an alt or two is not a guarantee that player will survive, and he is forced to split the ISK between two accounts. Warping in with alts on a low-medium end content should scare away NPC's rather than escalate.

P.S. I live in WH. Sleepers are nasty guys, but teamwork makes then quite tasty and it gets boring after few months, because you know the triggers, spawns..

Leah Pendragon
Posted - 2011.08.05 15:34:00 - [455]
 

Edited by: Leah Pendragon on 05/08/2011 15:40:31
Originally by: Abrazzar
Originally by: DaiZom B
I see. But still: A big force can this way hit any number of systems and can only be countered by an equal or bigger force. So entity A may steal your stuff each and every day and you can not do anything about it since your force just isn't big enough. IMHO it is not about giving a small force an opportunity to steal something but to encourage to use a small gang and not a big blob. This is the key issue. If you manage that all doors are open.

Also, while you are off with all your pilots to raid some alliance, all your own sites at home are vulnerable to a third party


This. If it was raiding between two blocs then the defending bloc would have the advantage because they can summon all their pilots while the raiding force would have to split their forces so when they came home everything hadn't been set on fire.

It would mainly benefit smaller corps/alliances who could raid sov space from NPC null or low sec while aspiring to grow to the level of the people they're raiding.

Further more it would generate pvp, be a fantastic entry level for pilots wanting to pew in null but who dont want the lag/CTA's.

Finally networking - whether obtaining intel on whose space is empty or inviting smaller corps/alliances to raid your enemies while they're hitting you sov will create more player interaction.

BtodaC
24th Imperial Crusade
Posted - 2011.08.05 15:39:00 - [456]
 

Originally by: Leah Pendragon

Hi-sec players SHOULD be financially disadvantaged from Null players. Null is end game, its far higher risk thus the rewards should match this.


I never said they shouldn't be disadvantaged, I did say they should not be at a massive financial disadvantage, otherwise you will only make it harder for people to get to null sec which you claim is 'the end game,' which is an opinion that I do not share (nor do the devs, going by some of their posts).
You (and a number of other posters) seem to think that anomalies are the only way to earn isk in null, never mind the belt rats with their officer/faction spawns, the high end asteroids, the high end planets and of course the moon mining. I would still like to see an economic analysis of the profitability rather than going on anecdotes.

As for not having your shiney ships turned into a KM I would suggest scouts and a small pos where you can hide if any unfriendlies come into the system to play. A bit of organisation can mitigate the risks presented by null. You can earn a lot of money out of null sec but you still have to be willing to do the grind. I cant help but feel the 'insufficient reward for the risk argument' is a disingenuous way of saying 'I want more isk for less grind' No one likes doing the grind but for me, without the grind PVP in eve loses its unique flavour (tear flavour, yum).

Lo Res
Southern Cross Incorporated
Flying Dangerous
Posted - 2011.08.05 15:59:00 - [457]
 

"In other words, you can either make your money by killing the rats in your space, or by having high standings with the faction those rats belong to so that if you pvp in that space, you gain money from them.
Admittedly though, that's not very well thought out yet."

This caught my eye.

What if I'm in a PVP centric alliance and I don't want my noobs more interested in making isk than making stuff blow up?
Allow an alliance to take sov and Not Rat. Make these rats beneficial to the alliance in other ways. Make them smarter, tougher. Give the alliance the option of delayed Local. I want my NPC rats to snitch on isk farming bots and give me intel. Let them tell me there's a ratting carrier in a particular system, etc.

This idea needs fleshing out.

gfldex
Posted - 2011.08.05 16:03:00 - [458]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Leah Pendragon

I liked how the noctis was introduced creating a rush to Outer ring. If the things that CCP seeds on the market such as BPO's, advanced skill books and some decent profit trade goods were found only in specific low/NPC null stations could that not help stimulate a mini trade hub? If only for people buying stuffs to seed in empire.




This is an interesting idea.


You mean, like, I don't know. Maybe Megacyte that can only be obtained in 0.0 belts.

It's so funny to see how EVE seemingly can only be saved by going back the times where EVE still was EVE. The mighty Gankagaddon roaming the skies, haunting the choke points and pipes that pilots had to use because a stargate was still a stargate and not a nuisance. Fleet battles that just happend on a dayly basis without CTAs and 2 weeks of planning because if you could not break the camp in HED, them corpies of yours could not join the fun. Scounting and spying that meant something because fleets couldn't come out of nowhere (situational awareness used to be a vital _player_skill_).

Ohh, the old times! Ohh, the good times!

Selnix
Gallente
North Eastern Swat
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.08.05 16:06:00 - [459]
 

Originally by: gfldex
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Leah Pendragon

I liked how the noctis was introduced creating a rush to Outer ring. If the things that CCP seeds on the market such as BPO's, advanced skill books and some decent profit trade goods were found only in specific low/NPC null stations could that not help stimulate a mini trade hub? If only for people buying stuffs to seed in empire.




This is an interesting idea.


You mean, like, I don't know. Maybe Megacyte that can only be obtained in 0.0 belts.

It's so funny to see how EVE seemingly can only be saved by going back the times where EVE still was EVE. The mighty Gankagaddon roaming the skies, haunting the choke points and pipes that pilots had to use because a stargate was still a stargate and not a nuisance. Fleet battles that just happend on a dayly basis without CTAs and 2 weeks of planning because if you could not break the camp in HED, them corpies of yours could not join the fun. Scounting and spying that meant something because fleets couldn't come out of nowhere (situational awareness used to be a vital _player_skill_).

Ohh, the old times! Ohh, the good times!


... back in the days before warp to zero when all fleets used gates and fleet mobility before the advent of titan and jump bridges meant that small gangs could outmaneuver large ones. I miss my polyraven.

Leah Pendragon
Posted - 2011.08.05 16:07:00 - [460]
 

Edited by: Leah Pendragon on 05/08/2011 16:23:24
Edited by: Leah Pendragon on 05/08/2011 16:21:11
Originally by: BtodaC
Originally by: Leah Pendragon

Hi-sec players SHOULD be financially disadvantaged from Null players. Null is end game, its far higher risk thus the rewards should match this.


I never said they shouldn't be disadvantaged, I did say they should not be at a massive financial disadvantage, which you claim is 'the end game,' which is an opinion that I do not share (nor do the devs, going by some of their posts).


Not true. New players do not go into Sov Null sec as one person. They either join an existing null corp, go as a corperation generally joining an alliance/renter alliance, go as an alliance and join a bloc or take sov after making the transition from NPC null.

This means that they will have a protective umbrella of existing null based corps/alliances to help them make the transition.

Also I didn't include the word Massive. But massive is unquantified and subjective. I just meant that Null income should be higher than Empire.

Originally by: BtodaC
You (and a number of other posters) seem to think that anomalies are the only way to earn isk in null, never mind the belt rats with their officer/faction spawns, the high end asteroids, the high end planets and of course the moon mining. I would still like to see an economic analysis of the profitability rather than going on anecdotes.


I tested ratting for myself to establish profitability (and seen as I'm lazy the fastest way to make isk so I didn't have to spend too much time shooting red crosses) and anoms smash belt ratting apart. Especially due to the chance of escalations. As for the moon mining generally the top end moons are corp/alliance assets not personal ones.

Also doing a wide range of methods to generate isk is SP demanding or requires alts. My main is pvp focused so bugger mining.

Originally by: BtodaC
As for not having your shiney ships turned into a KM I would suggest scouts and a small pos where you can hide if any unfriendlies come into the system to play.


I do not have a faction fitted Tengu. The point I was making is that even though you can mitigate the dangers there IS risk involved which is simply not there in Empire. Also pos require fuel lowering your profits.

Originally by: BtodaC
I cant help but feel the 'insufficient reward for the risk argument' is a disingenuous way of saying 'I want more isk for less grind' No one likes doing the grind but for me, without the grind PVP in eve loses its unique flavour (tear flavour, yum).


This made me chuckle because it has an element of truth to it.

However I do think that the rewards for Null should be greater than empire for 2 reasons 1) Risk/Reward and 2) To incite people into Null in the first place. As currently a lot of Empire dwellers tremble at the very thought of going lower than a 0.5 system though they might very well prefere the game content once they've adjusted.

Abrazzar
Posted - 2011.08.05 16:26:00 - [461]
 

Oohoho...

Jump Bridge Bandwidth: Can only manage 20,000,000 kg* worth of ship per second. Get in line and hope your buddies don't pop as quickly as they show up. Laughing


*Skills, sub-systems, anchored cyno gens, bridge countermeasures or being a POS jump bridge can modify this value.

Isabella Thresher
Fat Kitty Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.05 16:34:00 - [462]
 

Edited by: Isabella Thresher on 05/08/2011 16:34:49
one more thing to add, very personal point of view.

my ideal nullsec would be an area, where small/medsize corps go to, fight for *one* system, claim it, hold it, defend it until the very end. make a personalized mark on the big sov map.

multiple small/med corps with each of them claiming *one* system = alliance

there should be no such thing as "we control three full regions and you can rent a single system for 4 billions a month". that's boring as hell for the majority of players and not just a few of my mates left eve for this very reason.



Originally by: Leah Pendragon
Originally by: Viceroy
Stuff


Don't allow JF's to Cyno into low sec. That would be interesting. Won't happen but would certainly be interesting.

agree!

Bevil Smyth
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.05 17:38:00 - [463]
 

I have one that I hope no one has suggested Smile

address the inherant disadvantage of having a character name beggining with A and to a lesser extent Z.

Number of large fleet fights with survivors mostly in the middle of the alphabet was just silly, one poor guy whos name started with A didnt survive a single battle through one campaign. Where as my main who starts with "M" surived through every battle.

gfldex
Posted - 2011.08.05 17:43:00 - [464]
 

Originally by: Viceroy

For economies to develop in 0.0, the travel time to empire has to be measured literally in DAYS rather than minutes and loopholes like jump drive logistics and portals have to be plugged. But DAYS? That's insane. People would die of boredom.

Not necessarily; people would travel less if travel times were much slower than they do right now.


Players would be willing to travel for 1h. We used to be willing to travel for 1h in the good ol' days. But nowadays you end up at the other end of the map where we used to end up 4 regions away. Most of the time we didn't even need to do that, because enemies where next door. That doesn't work anymore. If you look how the blue blocks are structured, you can tell how far a jump drive will reach. If you neighbour can hot drop you any second, you better make sure they don't want to.

The map was scaled down by reducing travel speed by a factor between 5 and 10. How about scaling it up again? Heck, space should not be so uniform anyway. Why are there no 0.0 regions that you can't reach with jump drives, how matter how hard you try? You want a carrier over here buddy? You better bring a BPC then. You want to take your SC back into the safety of lowsec while you go on a 2 week business trip? Nope, can't do that. Why don't you give it to a corpie while you are on the road?

What about WH? Them Sanshas can use them now. Would they not settle somewhere else, far far away from them mean CONCORD *beep*ers? Regions that you can't reach by any other means then non static (maybe small) WH are pretty much doomed to have local markets, don't they? You could feel like living far of the road again. Make those regions smaller but have many with a NPC region in between. Small region for small corps?

Scale the bloody map up, tyvm.

Gabriel Karade
Gallente
Noir.
Noir. Mercenary Group
Posted - 2011.08.05 17:43:00 - [465]
 

Seen as this is all fairly still ‘high level ‘stuff... If you really want to “sort out” 0.0 you need to build from the ground up.

Forget about sovereignty mechanics



Bin the stupid immersion breaking mechanics (timers/invulnerable structures/magic fuel savings) . All ‘sovereignty’ means is your peers recognise you have more people on the ground and the means/arms to defend that ground (Might makes Right).

You need to get away from the idea of timers/invulnerable structures and focus on getting the tools in place to allow an industrial base to be developed from the ground up. Gucci structures such as Cyno Jammers/Jump bridges shouldn’t be deployable or not deployable based on what the top left of the screen says – it should simply be based on having built up the appropriate local industrial base (planets/starbases/mining/construction e.t.c) to support it.

Then, absolutely everything should be destroyable or equally, capturable. If a defender cuts and runs the attacker should be able to take all the spoils and set up shop. Or, if they are just feeling like malicious bastards, burn it all to the ground. If ‘sovereignty’ is just a word and ‘industrial base’ is the real meat and potatoes, it’s not inconceivable two small entities could build up in the same system/constellation, choosing to co-exist, trade e.t.c... until one backstabs the other probably – hey it’s Eve afterall.

I don’t suppose this will be read, but in my humble opinion every attempt you [CCP] have made at formalising ‘sovereignty’ since the ‘Exodus’ expansion has been ill thought out and poorly executed. For sure there are other issues at play here – namely the ‘shrinkage’ of space, but you guys really need to start from a fresh perspective, because so far it’s just been a cycle of: “Oops...That didn’t work! Oops...That didn’t work! Oops...”

If you really must have flags on the map you could do a ‘Concord representative’ (a.k.a. one of you) doing a once-a-month sweep around 0.0 to see who is doing what and stick an appropriate flag on the map.

Woodiex3
Posted - 2011.08.05 17:50:00 - [466]
 

Seeing that Grayscale is taking part in this thread.
i reactivated "only 5 free days :P"

my thoughts.

- active and in-active mining. (in-active as it is now)
mini game mining, some sort of PI thing per riod
result giving 200% output only if its not macroable
also rare nuggets now and again and if its fun.

- station looting / moon mining looting
(only player stations)
around 20pl 10mins shooting some cargo shield
on a station, then a can pops out
(non-destrcutable/until empty, take out only)
these cans have players loot from ammo to even
a ship(unfitted). a 6-12 hour repeat timer.
mail notification if your items were stolen :P
"amount of items would need to be minimal"
same principle for moon arrays.

- Sov.
sov upgrades should be from 1 system to the
constellation were 1 system can only upgrade to lvl 7
2 systems to lvl 5 rest to lvl 3.
bonuses to include tanking. damage etc also npc stuff
"could you buff certain mods to turn pve ship into a
pvp ship"

- Sov warfare.
sov can only be taken by an alliance who has sov.
an alliance has to tag the desired system tcu say
then deploy "new sbu's" in every surrounding system.
(new sbu) - random points in the system say 3 per
system takes 12-24hours to online (random)
once online they generate a 250k bubble
the hostiles have to have a % of ppl in the bubble
for a a certain period of time to turn it to red
and keep red, if friendlies a smaller % get near
the sbu it switches back to blue. hostiles need all
bubbles red before the assault on the target system.

also once the hostile alliance sbu's are onlined
all there assets become vulnerable no renforce chit.

if you dont own sov and want to take it they you
first have to take an npc station and own/defend
it first. (low sec say)
(you carnt close the doors on a NPC station either.)

- supercap/titan.
log off time should be set at least an hour.
i got tired of the "im going to tell my mummy" - log
off button.

- cloaking.
get rid of the perfect cloak. or some tool to counter it.

i am/was a grunt in 0.0
you need every system populated as possible having flown 45 jump roam not seeing as much a shuttle to shoot empty 0.0 is BORING.
the other problem is a pve ship is almost pointless against a pvp ship.
also grunts need isk for new ships no isk no grunt.
kill mails are king - include pod implants, selfdistructs

also i love the idea of jump bridges at gates.
most random fights take place at gates or a station.

i hope this thread isnt just bluff.

darth mine
Posted - 2011.08.05 18:04:00 - [467]
 

Originally by: Woodiex3

- cloaking.
get rid of the perfect cloak. or some tool to counter it.



FULL ACK.
Especially cause CCP is saying "nobody may feel save in 0.0 space". Make is go offline after some minues and give it a cooldown, allowing an other ship to scan and warp to it. Reset the counter on every gate usage (which has not been used the last 15 minutes; otherwise they would "spam" the same gate again and again), allowing players to travel cloaked.

Greetings

mkint
Posted - 2011.08.05 18:07:00 - [468]
 

Edited by: mkint on 05/08/2011 18:15:59
Originally by: Isabella Thresher

Originally by: Leah Pendragon
Originally by: Viceroy
Stuff


Don't allow JF's to Cyno into low sec. That would be interesting. Won't happen but would certainly be interesting.

agree!

What if there was a balance to this? What if there were "jump hazards" in 0.0? Jumping already draws a straight line on the 3D starmap, what if when that line passed through a jump hazard, there was a check to compare the "jump resiliency" of the ship with the jump hazard's "difficulty." Dreads would be made more useful by having a high jump resiliency and be able to pass through any jump hazards, making them the quick responders. Supers would have very low resiliency forcing them to have to take longer jump routes. The high difficulty hazards found between empire/null might limit jump freighters from jumping straight from one to the other without using gates. Maybe add a strength of cyno, so that to move a super across a high difficulty hazard, would require using a regular carrier as a cyno.

The highest difficulty hazards (dreads and high strength cynos only) would be found between empire/null, with some hazard gaps for more capital choke points. Moderate hazards would be found in fairly large pockets between regions (most travel will require high strength cynos to punch through), and lower difficulty hazards (requiring a fairly strong cyno to get a super through) would be found in most inter-region space and dispersed in pockets through NPC null. Ships with low resiliency would need to navigate through the breaks in the hazards, making risk free force projection difficult if not impossible.

To implement it, it will be important to improve the capital navigation tools in-game. A cyno pilot as well as the capital pilot, should be able to see which destination systems are in range of the caps, and the hazard difficulty. It should be displayed on the starmap with range overlays, hazard overlays, and improved ways of communicating desired information. (The starmap's simple brighter/darker system is just awful, as is the hover-over. In fact, a major update to the starmap would probably do a lot to help people, especially rookies, feel more connection to the game, knowing where they fit in with the literal big picture.)

Forlorn Wongraven
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2011.08.05 19:03:00 - [469]
 

Edited by: Forlorn Wongraven on 05/08/2011 19:05:59
Edited by: Forlorn Wongraven on 05/08/2011 19:05:36
Originally by: darth mine
Originally by: Woodiex3

- cloaking.
get rid of the perfect cloak. or some tool to counter it.



FULL ACK.
Especially cause CCP is saying "nobody may feel save in 0.0 space". Make is go offline after some minues and give it a cooldown, allowing an other ship to scan and warp to it.


Scouts need to have a cloak, that allows a long time cloak - make bookmarks, scout POS and defenses, watch system activity for a longer time and so on. If it deactivates every few minutes you kill a very important niche.

If annoyed with afk cloakers there are easy and fast ways to handle such situations.


Nova Fox
Gallente
Novafox Shipyards
Posted - 2011.08.05 19:47:00 - [470]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale


Originally by: Nova Fox
Breakable Automation

Marginally cheap (as far as allainces are concenred) to encourage deployment under the defacto 'just because' instead of
'Should I deploy one if the enemy is going to blow it up?'
Makes life that much easier (but should never net in 'free money/resources')
Easily disabled and Easily destroyed with a bit more effort
Lootable by Raiders if destroyed.


This sort of thing is something we're actively looking at, with the modification that it's less about "blow it up" and more about "steal the expensive fuel".



I highly agree all these automons should be raidable when disabled if applicable espeicaly the Resource related 'automons'. This would highly encourage small commerce raiding especially if you make it something easily bashable in a hit in run from a squadron.

Security/Infrastructure related automons items could be raidable as well with thier ammo stores or even stealable but I would like to see hacking play a bigger role in disabiling/stealing the security automons for harassment and maybe in the time of a real war manage to turn the security against the owners.

I do want to err caution when deciding what things to automate though, IE having an automon that automatically mines minerals would be a game breaker verses an automon that refines on spot and transports to a linked pos or outpost wont be as much of a game breaker because it still requires a player to make it work just its lesser work than previously.

Bottom Line,
Improve Quality of Life, decrease the quantity of headaces.

TurAmarth ElRandir
Minmatar
Hiigaran Bounty Hunters Inc.
DemSal Unlimited
Posted - 2011.08.05 20:13:00 - [471]
 

-Shooting at stationary structures is boring.
My comment is based on my experience in wormholes... not Null Sec in Kspace, but still 0.0 space.

NOTE: I hope this reply will not be deemed off topic due to wormhole basis, I still feel my ideas have merit in Null Sec at least as far a POSes are concerned.

My answer is... Simply make POSes more interesting to shoot.

1-In the case of POS'es, instead of actually firing on the Control Tower itself, make the forcefield a "real" thing. Have it 'react' to the incoming assault *[visually far more interesting and more 'realistic', IE Shield is SHIELD and Control Tower has Armor & Structure];

2-Instead of allowing the POS guns/mods to fire 'through' the forcefield/station, limit only those arrays that have a clear field of fire be capable of firing on/webbing/scrammin etc. an attacker; *[visually far more interesting and more 'realistic' + making POS defense layout more important, and thereby more interesting than just anchoring defenses anywhere "'cause it don't matter, 'cause they can hit from anywhere"];

3-Have the POS guns/mods AI work at least as well as Sleeper AI's so if you try a POS bash on an unoccupied POS, it will not be so easy-but-boring (IE time consuming w/ little need to think) but a more worthy PvE fight. *[effectively more interesting, better PvE fight's];

Just one man's opinion...


Balcor Mirage
Posted - 2011.08.05 20:36:00 - [472]
 

Visions of Outlaw Space

We arrived in the unknown regions referred to as outlaw space. Rumors of Alliances developing some solar systems to produce vast riches have intrigued us, so we’ve come to explore first hand (no way to pull up data on 0.0 systems remotely).
Our combat pilots are eager to test their strength against the pirate factions found out here. Stories are told about how they tend to bring in more forces… forces more heavily armed and armored with each attack against them (escalating military difficulty index culminating in massive PVE capital fleet battles as an open ended & challenging content for any alliance). But first, our combat pilots will have to run combat space patrol in support of our new base of operations (points provided to an alliance to spend in system defense upgrades based on successful PvP activity).

My Industry directors have informed me of their plans to proceed with system scans so their miners, planetary & moon harvesting contingents can get right to work on building and expanding our resources, stations and bunkers (escalating alliance industry index providing more abundant/richer raw materials with alliance development points to spend for POS-like structures, outposts and defense facilities & upgrades). They say they will have to continually scan for new resources as they become available (raw material depletes & renews in systems over time & through use but is constantly available based on a quality index achieved through activity).

We’ve scouted some systems which appear to have been abandoned by prior alliances. The outposts are all offline & the defensive bunkers are deserted (sovereignty, military & industry indexes decay over time through non-use which takes structures offline in unused systems… eventually dropping sovereignty in unused systems).

I’ve heard of cloaked spies who set up camp in a solar system for the sole purpose of disrupting activities. My intelligence director has assured me that the deep space sensor arrays we can put online will eventually root out any cloaked ship (military index points spent on sensor arrays that can scan a system grid by grid to detect cloaked ships over time. Grid searches can be prioritized by the operator, but takes special skills to operate). My director also informs me that any sensor activity by a cloaked ship will make it easier to detect.

Here we are. We’ve compiled our sensor data, scouted for enemies and have made a choice to colonize in outlaw space. It’s up to us to build a team willing to put in the effort to make this work… fleet, warp to outgate.

Harener
Posted - 2011.08.05 21:09:00 - [473]
 

Edited by: Harener on 05/08/2011 21:32:29
So I went to eve-search to read only the CCP posts, and there's 38 CCP posts in just this thread. Good job CCP.

About anomalies, why not make them require probes to scan down? Right now it is too easy to kill people in them:

1) simply jump into system a warp there in 10 secs, which is faster than BS and carriers can warp out in (they can't be aligned all the time because of range issues)

2) simply log out in a sanctum, then log back in 15-30 mins and instantly tackle someone who thought no hostile was in system

3) afk cloaking hotdroppers- you might say "bait them", but then how are we supposed to rat if we're baiting them 23.5/7? and we can't bait them 23.5/7 anyway, and even if are they baited, bombers are extremely hard to catch. make it so that they have to actually probe the sanctum and put work into it. Effectively, all really low truesec systems are shut-out because of them. How is it fair people can do so much damage just by being afk 99% of the time?

Why are missions infinitely safer, and provide more isk (taking into account the risks)?

CCP Greyscale

Posted - 2011.08.05 21:28:00 - [474]
 

Originally by: Destination SkillQueue

I think the worry is that scaling encounters done wrong is one of the major banes of many recent games and often a tool of a lazy developer who doesn't want to balance the content properly. If done poorly it can ruin an otherwise good game on it's own. To do it properly will require a lot of work and you can't just half ass the system and think you've improved the gameplay experience for all. In all likelyhood you've done the exact opposite.

I think you have the right general idea how to use it though. It can work just fine, but only at a limited range. The specific difficulty/reward range isn't important. What is important is that the variation is limited, so the encounter can provide exceptional challenges or be breezed through effortlessly depending on the fleet doing the site. Keep in mind, that not everyone wants the exact same thing from your encounters or does them in the most efficient manner, but you can only scale it according to one way of doing things.

The above dosen't alter the fact, that you'll have to decide what will trigger the scaling and what kind of scaling you think will work the best. Are you for example scaling things by numbers, some kind of "gear score" or fleet composition? The point being that a small group of frigate buddies, a few HACs and a dedicated logi pilot or a marauder with a salvaging buddy aren't looking to do the site in a same way and an overly simple scaling system can fudge up the site for some.

It is also worth considering what kind of reinforcements are we talking about. A new wave of more of the same would be the least disruptive, but also the most boring option. It would just make the site more long and repetative, but not really more challenging. Special random waves with incursion type AI and roles would be more interesting(I'm thinking cohesive NPC groups like a logistic group, bomber wing, interceptor wing, ect.), but possibly devastating if the scaling is triggered without the players actually having more combat capability on the field.

I don't want to go deep into the pros and cons of difficulty scaling until you get some details done on the system you intend to use. The things I wanted to convey at this stage is that scaling needs to be done with a lot of thought or not done at all and that the wider range of scaling you use the more problems your system will cause. Also don't forget that the players can always choose another site, if the challenge isn't to their fleets liking. A good alternative to wide scaling is giving people access to multiple sites of varying difficulty/reward levels and let them choose for themselves.


This is reasonable.


CCP Greyscale

Posted - 2011.08.05 21:30:00 - [475]
 

Originally by: Viceroy
Travel times are too short and travel (especially logistics) is too safe and convenient for a meaningful economy to develop in 0.0 space. This was always the case, but it became worse over time first with instajump bookmarks, then with warp-to-zero and obviously with the current ridiculous jump-drive mechanics. Every one of these changes made EVE smaller and safer and thus less meaningful, mostly to satisfy ADHD-ridden carebears (see: short-termism) who wanted to get everywhere and do everything before they went to bed.

This has made it impossible to develop a meaningful economy in 0.0. It really isn't an issue of rare resources being available in 0.0 only, or how those resources are distributed, or who has access to them, when all of those resources are 30 minutes away from being exported to Jita with a good set of cyno alts and Titans and/or JFs. If you seed BPOs or skill books in 0.0, some dude in a JF is going to seed the entire empire market in under 15 minutes of work. It also doesn't matter if you give 0.0 producers advantages or access to better resources or other incentives when everything can be bought from a much safer, much more efficient and much more competitive market that is again, at most 30 minutes away. On top of that, you can buy hundreds of thousands of m3's of stuff in a single short trip thanks to freighters. Jita will remain the supermarket of EVE as long as travel is so conveniently safe and fast.

For economies to develop in 0.0, the travel time to empire has to be measured literally in DAYS rather than minutes and loopholes like jump drive logistics and portals have to be plugged. But DAYS? That's insane. People would die of boredom.

Not necessarily; people would travel less if travel times were much slower than they do right now. WHAT? Well, right now it's more convenient to invest another 15-30 minutes of travel to get to Jita than it is to produce locally or give an incentive to someone to produce locally or any other complex solution that would involve local economy. Screw it and tell your alliance JF dude to ship it in. If the travel times were much slower, you'd likely be making the trip from empire to 0.0 once, and would carefully plan your logistics accordingly, knowing that it's probably a one way trip. After that, the time you would normally invest in going to empire to pick stuff up would be distributed among more engaging activities, such as, you know, BUILDING A LOCAL MARKET (either through buying stuff or actually producing stuff knowing that you won't be out-competed by a JF alt).


I'm not convinced of this. I'm not expecting to get anything Jita-scaled any time soon, but non-Jita hubs of varying sizes already exist all over empire, despite being minutes or hours rather than days away. Travel time is a factor, sure, but I don't think we need multi-day travel to get small hubs popping up.

CCP Greyscale

Posted - 2011.08.05 21:34:00 - [476]
 

Originally by: gfldex
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
Originally by: Leah Pendragon

I liked how the noctis was introduced creating a rush to Outer ring. If the things that CCP seeds on the market such as BPO's, advanced skill books and some decent profit trade goods were found only in specific low/NPC null stations could that not help stimulate a mini trade hub? If only for people buying stuffs to seed in empire.




This is an interesting idea.


You mean, like, I don't know. Maybe Megacyte that can only be obtained in 0.0 belts.


No, not exactly like that - mining does require stuff to be hauled, but it's usually I think being hauled by miners. The interesting thing about putting trade items - particularly medium-volume ones - exclusively in (NPC) nullsec is that it gets traders finding ways to move high-volume shipments back and forth. And if you're already swallowing the cost of getting a hauler to Fountain to pick up cargo, anything you can do to monetize the empty out-bound run (such as seeding markets, even at marginal profits) is suddenly worth your time.
Originally by: Gabriel Karade
Seen as this is all fairly still ‘high level ‘stuff... If you really want to “sort out” 0.0 you need to build from the ground up.

Forget about sovereignty mechanics



Bin the stupid immersion breaking mechanics (timers/invulnerable structures/magic fuel savings) . All ‘sovereignty’ means is your peers recognise you have more people on the ground and the means/arms to defend that ground (Might makes Right).

You need to get away from the idea of timers/invulnerable structures and focus on getting the tools in place to allow an industrial base to be developed from the ground up. Gucci structures such as Cyno Jammers/Jump bridges shouldn’t be deployable or not deployable based on what the top left of the screen says – it should simply be based on having built up the appropriate local industrial base (planets/starbases/mining/construction e.t.c) to support it.

Then, absolutely everything should be destroyable or equally, capturable. If a defender cuts and runs the attacker should be able to take all the spoils and set up shop. Or, if they are just feeling like malicious bastards, burn it all to the ground. If ‘sovereignty’ is just a word and ‘industrial base’ is the real meat and potatoes, it’s not inconceivable two small entities could build up in the same system/constellation, choosing to co-exist, trade e.t.c... until one backstabs the other probably – hey it’s Eve afterall.


This is more-or-less the direction we're trying to move in Smile

Originally by: Forlorn Wongraven
Edited by: Forlorn Wongraven on 05/08/2011 19:05:59
Edited by: Forlorn Wongraven on 05/08/2011 19:05:36
Originally by: darth mine
Originally by: Woodiex3

- cloaking.
get rid of the perfect cloak. or some tool to counter it.



FULL ACK.
Especially cause CCP is saying "nobody may feel save in 0.0 space". Make is go offline after some minues and give it a cooldown, allowing an other ship to scan and warp to it.


Scouts need to have a cloak, that allows a long time cloak - make bookmarks, scout POS and defenses, watch system activity for a longer time and so on. If it deactivates every few minutes you kill a very important niche.

If annoyed with afk cloakers there are easy and fast ways to handle such situations.




Yeah, this is one of the bits that make good solutions less obvious. Came up with something today that might actually do the trick, but I'm still thinking about it.

Viceroy
Posted - 2011.08.05 23:05:00 - [477]
 

Edited by: Viceroy on 05/08/2011 23:09:41
Quote:
I'm not convinced of this. I'm not expecting to get anything Jita-scaled any time soon, but non-Jita hubs of varying sizes already exist all over empire, despite being minutes or hours rather than days away. Travel time is a factor, sure, but I don't think we need multi-day travel to get small hubs popping up.


It doesn't have to be multi-day, you just have to realize how ridiculously easy and fast travel is right now, and how that screws up any prospect of localized economies, especially in 0.0. It's funny, but I think the main reason there are even any miserable mini-hubs in empire is because you can't bridge around freighters in high-sec, which in itself shows how jump/portal mechanics (or the lack of them) impact logistics and influence local economies.

One of the reasons your Titans and Motherships suck is also because of superfast travel times. Who needs a mobile station or a mobile base when you can attack someone in their home region and be back home before bedtime? If it took a long time to travel between regions, campaigns would have to be planned and there would be a legitimate strategic use for supercapitals and titans. Right now they're just the next step up in DPS and mobility on the ship ladder.

Seriously, it's the oldest rule in the MMO development book that the size of your ***** is directly correlated with the size of your virtual world (after travel times). You know what you have to do.

gfldex
Posted - 2011.08.05 23:21:00 - [478]
 

Edited by: gfldex on 06/08/2011 00:01:50
Edited by: gfldex on 05/08/2011 23:50:33
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
No, not exactly like that - mining does require stuff to be hauled, but it's usually I think being hauled by miners. The interesting thing about putting trade items - particularly medium-volume ones - exclusively in (NPC) nullsec is that it gets traders finding ways to move high-volume shipments back and forth. And if you're already swallowing the cost of getting a hauler to Fountain to pick up cargo, anything you can do to monetize the empty out-bound run (such as seeding markets, even at marginal profits) is suddenly worth your time.


Ohh, you mean trade goods. Like Vitoc and uranium that RKK was slinging around with a titan bridge until somebody spotted their freighters and petitioned it. That was nerfed real quick. I would even go so far to say that was the fastest nerf ever done.

Jump Drives, the root of all evil.

When distance for haulers became pretty much irrelephant (there are no elephants in eve) trade routes went wrong (hi Entity!). Be careful what you wish for.

I still believe that there should be exclusives in 0.0. The only thing I can think of right now are x-type and officer mods. The first hauler I ever moved back from stain was packed with meta4 tachs, beams and pulse. Boy, that was some good ISK. Tachs used to sell for 100M a pop in Amarr. Good ol' times! Nowadays that stuff goes right into the refinery. There is overproduction in 0.0 but it wont get anybody to move that stuff because the prices in Jita will be worse. Simply because you can get pretty much anything in Empire _as_a_sideproduct_for_standing_grind_. I do not agree with Digi and Viceroy that lvl4s in highsec are ebil and need removing. But the reward should not be the same then in 0.0, so they don't devalueade the riches in 0.0 so you are _forced_ to make systems upgrade able and add lolsanctums into each and every system.

I never liked by-products in EVE much. Look at heavy water. It's hardly worth hauling anymore. Adding by-products to hauling stuff from empire will most likely have undesired side-effects.

BeanBagKing
Terra Incognita
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.08.05 23:56:00 - [479]
 

Quote:
See: everything involving starbases.


^ I liked that part and feel like quoting for truth.

Kieron VonDeux
Posted - 2011.08.06 00:10:00 - [480]
 

Originally by: CCP Greyscale

I'm not convinced of this. I'm not expecting to get anything Jita-scaled any time soon, but non-Jita hubs of varying sizes already exist all over empire, despite being minutes or hours rather than days away. Travel time is a factor, sure, but I don't think we need multi-day travel to get small hubs popping up.


It goes back to a saying that time is money. Why have local hubs when you can get what you want at a more centralized location in a reasonable period of time.

If it takes 10-30 seconds to cross the universe, you will have a single hub.
If it takes 10-30 minutes to cross the universe, you will have a single hub.
If it takes 1-3 hrs to cross the universe, you will have several regional hubs. (as we do now)
If it takes 10-30 hrs to cross the universe, you will have significant hubs poping up everywhere.
If it takes 2-5 days to cross the universe, you will have significant hubs and significat local production.
If it takes 1-3 weeks to cross the universe, you will have almost exclusively local production.

You like to say you have a "universe" here but taking in account how fast travel can be with jumpdrives all you really have is a large "city" that can easily be crossed in a single night. You have many corner stores and a few local supermarkets, because it takes about that much time and inconvience to get nearly anywhere.

People are willing to go all the way to Jita to get a good deal becase it is worth the time to do it. Increase the amount of time it takes to get to Jita and you will have far more local markets poping up with middlemen hauling to those locations for a slight raise in cost.

There will be no "silk road" of Eve as long as you can get all the way to Jita in a single night. Make it take a week and the "silk road" will appear. Players will get around any other mechanic, since it is worth the time and effort to do so.



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