open All Channels
seplocked Science and Industry
blankseplocked Yet another Negative ME question
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Author Topic

Shayla Sh'inlux
Eve Space Exploration Guild
Posted - 2011.08.02 17:40:00 - [1]
 

Hey all,

I have spent the last couple of days making my own Excel sheet for tech II production from invented BPCs. I am aware of the distinction between required components and extra components, but after completing all the formulas (that I was convinced were correct) I tried a compared a few ingame BPCs with my formulas results.

Almost all of them were spot-on until I ran into a particularly annoying anomaly: a ME -4 Scourge Fury BPC.

According to the database, a Scourge Fury Heavy Missile requires (among other stuff) 84 Rocket Fuel to build. This component is not an extra component and is thus affected by waste. Since the ME is -4, the waste is 50% and therefore the BPC should require 84*1,5=126 Rocket Fuel to build. However, the ingame BPC says it is actually only 124 Rocket Fuel.

Can someone shed a light on this?


Lutz Major
Posted - 2011.08.02 18:56:00 - [2]
 

Base number for Rocket Fuel is 80.

You apply 50% more waste: 120

You further have to apply 5% of 80 for your Production Efficiency IV skill :(


80 * 1.5 + 80 * 0.05 = 120 + 4 = 124

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.08.02 19:31:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 02/08/2011 20:04:58

base_waste = waste on M.E. 0 BPO

base_material = ROUND(material amount shown on M.E. 0 BPO / (1 + base_waste))

IF M.E. >= 0
total_material = ROUND(base_material * (1.25 + base_waste / (M.E. level + 1) - Production Efficiency skill * 5%))
ELSE
total_material = ROUND(base_material * (1.25 - base_waste * (M.E. level - 1) - Production Efficiency skill * 5%))

total_material = 80 * (1.25 - 10% * (-4 - 1) - 4 * 5%) = 124

Shayla Sh'inlux
Eve Space Exploration Guild
Posted - 2011.08.02 19:37:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Shayla Sh''inlux on 02/08/2011 19:38:01
Ah thanks. That's a more useful answer :)

Shayla Sh'inlux
Eve Space Exploration Guild
Posted - 2011.08.02 20:10:00 - [5]
 

Actually, while it's no doubt true, it actually confused me more.

See, the same Blueprint requires, according to the DB, 10112 tritanium to build. Multiplying that number by 1.5 gives the 15168 units required that are printed on the blueprint. The exact same is true for the Graviton Pulse Generator (9*1,5=13,5 which rounds to 14 as the BPC says).

The question, I guess, is how do I get to 124 from the base 84?

Jdestars
Stars Research systems Incorporation
Posted - 2011.08.02 20:35:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Jdestars on 02/08/2011 20:45:34
Edited by: Jdestars on 02/08/2011 20:45:08
You can show the base material requirement in Export database provide by CCP


http://www.eveonline.com/community/toolkit.asp

other parameters you can see the Base Wast factor , for munition its not the same
Quote:

typename Scourge Heavy Missile Blueprint
baseprice 750000,00
marketgroupid 317,00
productTypeID 209
productionTime 120
techLevel 1
researchProductivityTime 12000
researchMaterialTime 12000
researchCopyTime 12000
researchTechTime 120000
productivityModifier 24
materialModifier 5
wasteFactor 10
chanceOfReverseEngineering 0
maxProductionLimit 750



T2 Product
Quote:

typename Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Blueprint
baseprice 10000000,00
marketgroupid
productTypeID 2629
productionTime 100000
techLevel 2
researchProductivityTime 1200000
researchMaterialTime 800000
researchCopyTime 12000000
researchTechTime 1200000
productivityModifier 400
materialModifier 5
wasteFactor 10
chanceOfReverseEngineering 0
maxProductionLimit 100




Waste indicated on Blueprint
BaseWaste=IF(ME>-1; (Modulator/(1+ME));((ABS(ME)+1)/10))

Modulator are not same for drone/munition or Ship (eg 0.1 for Ship )

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.08.02 21:43:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Tau Cabalander on 04/08/2011 14:18:09
Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
Actually, while it's no doubt true, it actually confused me more.

See, the same Blueprint requires, according to the DB, 10112 tritanium to build. Multiplying that number by 1.5 gives the 15168 units required that are printed on the blueprint. The exact same is true for the Graviton Pulse Generator (9*1,5=13,5 which rounds to 14 as the BPC says).

The question, I guess, is how do I get to 124 from the base 84?

Amounts in the database are base amounts. Amounts in-game on BPO include waste, hence I specified a M.E. 0 BPO as reference. Amounts in game also include waste for lack of skill; the perfect amount with level 5 skill is shown in brackets [] (for time there are "You" fields).

Database (base): Scourge Fury Heavy Missile
EVElopedia (M.E. 0): Scourge Fury Heavy Missile

Tritanium
Base Tritanium = 10112
base Waste = 10%

With Production Efficiency skill at level 5:
Tritanium on M.E. 0 = ROUND(10112 * (1.25 + 10% / (0 + 1) - 5 * 5%)) = 11123 (same as EVElopedia)
Tritanium on M.E. -1 = ROUND(10112 * (1.25 - 10% * (-1 - 1) - 5 * 5%)) = 12134
Tritanium on M.E. -2 = ROUND(10112 * (1.25 - 10% * (-2 - 1) - 5 * 5%)) = 13146
Tritanium on M.E. -3 = ROUND(10112 * (1.25 - 10% * (-3 - 1) - 5 * 5%)) = 14157
Tritanium on M.E. -4 = ROUND(10112 * (1.25 - 10% * (-4 - 1) - 5 * 5%)) = 15168

Rocket Fuel
Note that for this blueprint 80 Rocket fuel is required (has waste) plus 4 extra rocket fuel (no waste).

Base Rocket Fuel = 80
Extra Rocket Fuel = 4
base Waste = 10%

I'm uncertain whether Production Efficiency applies to extra materials, as I've had it trained to 5 since I started doing industry and hence never needed to check. I'll have to check Rocket Fuel when I get home. Chruker's indicates it does apply (M.E. waste of course does not).

EVElopedia may be wrong, as it seems to have both portions of Rocket Fuel without waste.

With Production Efficiency skill at level 5:
Rocket Fuel on M.E. 0 = ROUND(4 + 80 * (1.25 + 10% / (0 + 1) - 5 * 5%)) = 92
Rocket Fuel on M.E. -1 = ROUND(4 + 80 * (1.25 - 10% * (-1 - 1) - 5 * 5%)) = 100
Rocket Fuel on M.E. -2 = ROUND(4 + 80 * (1.25 - 10% * (-2 - 1) - 5 * 5%)) = 108
Rocket Fuel on M.E. -3 = ROUND(4 + 80 * (1.25 - 10% * (-3 - 1) - 5 * 5%)) = 116
Rocket Fuel on M.E. -4 = ROUND(4 + 80 * (1.25 - 10% * (-4 - 1) - 5 * 5%)) = 124

Graviton Pulse Generator
base Graviton Pulse Generator = 9
base Waste = 10%

With Production Efficiency skill at level 5:
Graviton Pulse Generator on M.E. 0 = ROUND(9 * (1.25 + 10% / (0 + 1) - 5 * 5%)) = 10 (same as EVElopedia)
Graviton Pulse Generator on M.E. -1 = ROUND(9 * (1.25 - 10% * (-1 - 1) - 5 * 5%)) = 11
Graviton Pulse Generator on M.E. -2 = ROUND(9 * (1.25 - 10% * (-2 - 1) - 5 * 5%)) = 12
Graviton Pulse Generator on M.E. -3 = ROUND(9 * (1.25 - 10% * (-3 - 1) - 5 * 5%)) = 13
Graviton Pulse Generator on M.E. -4 = ROUND(9 * (1.25 - 10% * (-4 - 1) - 5 * 5%)) = 14


Shayla Sh'inlux
Eve Space Exploration Guild
Posted - 2011.08.03 00:05:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Shayla Sh''inlux on 03/08/2011 00:07:43
I have had PE trained to 5 since somewhere back in 2005, so don't worry about that. The confusing part for me was that I had managed to create tables and formulas in Excel that were spot-on for everything until I ran into this particular BPC. I had not realized it was possible to have part of a building material classified as extra. I assumed a given component was either extra or it was not.

This does awefully complicate things to the point where I guess I'll just settle with some insignificant errors on some prints.

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.08.03 00:12:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Shayla Sh'inlux
I have had PE trained to 5 since somewhere back in 2005, so don't worry about that. The confusing part for me was that I had managed to create tables and formulas in Excel that were spot-on for everything until I ran into this particular BPC. I had not realized it was possible to have part of a building material classified as extra. I assumed a given component was either extra or it was not.

This does awefully complicate things to the point where I guess I'll just settle with some insignificant errors on some prints.

I think the error can be pretty big. Look at bombs for example, as they have most of their material as extra.

Note: I put the math in above for Rocket Fuel.


Lutz Major
Posted - 2011.08.03 09:50:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Lutz Major on 04/08/2011 11:30:46
Edited by: Lutz Major on 03/08/2011 09:54:46
Edited by: Lutz Major on 03/08/2011 09:52:59
I'd like to apologize. I didn't check the whole material bill in the datase dump:

Scourge Fury Missiles have a base component of 80 Rocket Fuels AND 4 units as extra material!

Therfor your bill of materials says: 124 (80 * 1.5 + 4 units extra) Sad

edit: ahh ... Tau already said that :-)
edit2:
Originally by: Tau
I'm uncertain whether Production Efficiency applies to extra materials ...
As far as I know extra materials are not subject to any waste (ME or skill wise).


edit3: Okay short update: I checked out the extra materials with PE 0, PE 1. The quote does not change, but the raw materials change. So extra materials ARE subject to skill waste! I'll post shortly my findings.

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.08.04 14:26:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Tau Cabalander
I'm uncertain whether Production Efficiency applies to extra materials ...

Looking at a BPO with a no-skill alt:
* Control tower BPO (all extra materials) -> there is no additional waste on extra materials.
* Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Blueprint (linked in chat) shows [You: 112 - Perfect: 92] for M.E. 0 -> there is no additional waste on extra materials.

Lutz Major
Posted - 2011.08.04 15:23:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Lutz Major on 04/08/2011 15:24:03
Originally by: Tau Cabalander
Originally by: Tau Cabalander
I'm uncertain whether Production Efficiency applies to extra materials ...

Looking at a BPO with a no-skill alt:
* Control tower BPO (all extra materials) -> there is no additional waste on extra materials.
* Scourge Fury Heavy Missile Blueprint (linked in chat) shows [You: 112 - Perfect: 92] for M.E. 0 -> there is no additional waste on extra materials.

I tested it with a Shrapnel Bomb, ME:1050, Production Efficiency 0 (see quote). The extra materials are those from the database, but the skill waste applied to the raw materials!

This is the output from the dump. The first half is the from the ramTypeRequirements (the extra) and the second half is the data from the invTypeMaterials, already with ME and skills applied:
NAME      | QUANTITY     | PRICE        | TOTAL            | 
------------------------------------------------------------
Tritanium | 1,370,340.00 | ISK 3.44 | ISK 4,713,969.60 |
Pyerite | 625,207.00 | ISK 4.27 | ISK 2,669,633.89 |
Mexallon | 59,933.00 | ISK 27.33 | ISK 1,637,968.89 |
Isogen | 11,385.00 | ISK 62.31 | ISK 709,399.35 |
Nocxium | 2,268.00 | ISK 388.86 | ISK 881,934.48 |
Zydrine | 1,535.00 | ISK 752.55 | ISK 1,155,164.25 |
Megacyte | 349.00 | ISK 2,664.94 | ISK 930,064.06 |
-------------------------------------------------------------
Tritanium | 12,501.00 | ISK 3.44 | ISK 43,003.44 |
Pyerite | 125.00 | ISK 4.27 | ISK 533.75 |
Mexallon | 13.00 | ISK 27.33 | ISK 355.29 |
Isogen | 13.00 | ISK 62.31 | ISK 810.03 |
Nocxium | 13.00 | ISK 388.86 | ISK 5,055.18 |
Zydrine | 13.00 | ISK 752.55 | ISK 9,783.15 |
Megacyte | 13.00 | ISK 2,664.94 | ISK 34,644.22 |
If we add up the Isogen for example: 11,385 + 13 = 11,398.
But the quote says (and I confirmed buy building it): 11,385 + 2859 (!) = 14,244.

I don't want to say to much, before I totally confirmed everything with ingame quotes, but ROUND(11,385 * 1.25 + 13) = 14,244 Very Happy
(and currently this holds for PE 0 and PE 1 - which I tested with the bomb bpc).

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.08.04 16:34:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Lutz Major
I tested it with a Shrapnel Bomb, ME:1050, Production Efficiency 0 (see quote). The extra materials are those from the database, but the skill waste applied to the raw materials!

I thought Shrapnel Bombs had:

* 10000 Tritanium + 1370340 extra
* 100 Pyerite + 625207 extra
* 10 Mexallon + 59933 extra
* 10 Isogen + 11385 extra
* 10 Nocxium + 2268 extra
* 10 Zydrine + 1535 extra
* 10 Megacyte + 349 extra

I've been building using those amounts, and have always had the right amount of materials.

I'll have to check this one out too when I get home.


Lutz Major
Posted - 2011.08.04 17:02:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Tau Cabalander
Originally by: Lutz Major
I tested it with a Shrapnel Bomb, ME:1050, Production Efficiency 0 (see quote). The extra materials are those from the database, but the skill waste applied to the raw materials!

I thought Shrapnel Bombs had:

* 10000 Tritanium + 1370340 extra
* 100 Pyerite + 625207 extra
* 10 Mexallon + 59933 extra
* 10 Isogen + 11385 extra
* 10 Nocxium + 2268 extra
* 10 Zydrine + 1535 extra
* 10 Megacyte + 349 extra

I've been building using those amounts, and have always had the right amount of materials.

I'll have to check this one out too when I get home.


With PE 5 and a (near) perfect BP yes. But it looks like PE affects extra materials too.

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.08.04 17:54:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Lutz Major
With PE 5 and a (near) perfect BP yes. But it looks like PE affects extra materials too.

... but the 2 BPO I checked disagree with that conclusion.

Lutz Major
Posted - 2011.08.04 18:34:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Lutz Major on 04/08/2011 19:09:25
Edited by: Lutz Major on 04/08/2011 18:35:39
Originally by: Tau Cabalander
Originally by: Lutz Major
With PE 5 and a (near) perfect BP yes. But it looks like PE affects extra materials too.

... but the 2 BPO I checked disagree with that conclusion.

Granted, but this quote is with Prod. Eff. 1 and it works out ugh

I'll check some ships and other things and train PE to 3

Any ideas which BPs to check for that theory?Found some ... very interesting, indeed Shocked

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.08.05 01:47:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Tau Cabalander
I thought Shrapnel Bombs had:

* 10000 Tritanium + 1370340 extra
* 100 Pyerite + 625207 extra
* 10 Mexallon + 59933 extra
* 10 Isogen + 11385 extra
* 10 Nocxium + 2268 extra
* 10 Zydrine + 1535 extra
* 10 Megacyte + 349 extra

With PE 0 skill, in-game I show at M.E. 0:

* 1383840 Tritanium
* 625342 Pyerite
* 59947 Mexallon
* 11399 Isogen
* 2282 Nocxium
* 1549 Zydrine
* 363 Megacyte

1383840 - 1370340 = 13500 = ROUND(10000 * (1.25 + 10% / (0 + 1) - 0 * 0.05))
625342 - 625207 = 135 = ROUND(100 * (1.25 + 10% / (0 + 1) - 0 * 0.05))
59947 - 59933 = 14 = ROUND(10 * (1.25 + 10% / (0 + 1) - 0 * 0.05))
11399 - 11385 = 14 = ROUND(10 * (1.25 + 10% / (0 + 1) - 0 * 0.05))
2282 - 2268 = 14 = ROUND(10 * (1.25 + 10% / (0 + 1) - 0 * 0.05))
1549 - 1535 = 14 = ROUND(10 * (1.25 + 10% / (0 + 1) - 0 * 0.05))
363 - 349 = 14 = ROUND(10 * (1.25 + 10% / (0 + 1) - 0 * 0.05))

So once again I claim PE skill does not apply to extra, and I think your database numbers are wrong (13).

Lutz Major
Posted - 2011.08.05 09:29:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Tau Cabalander
Originally by: Tau Cabalander
I thought Shrapnel Bombs had:

* 10000 Tritanium + 1370340 extra
* 100 Pyerite + 625207 extra
* 10 Mexallon + 59933 extra
* 10 Isogen + 11385 extra
* 10 Nocxium + 2268 extra
* 10 Zydrine + 1535 extra
* 10 Megacyte + 349 extra

With PE 0 skill, in-game I show at M.E. 0:

* 1383840 Tritanium
* 625342 Pyerite
* 59947 Mexallon
* 11399 Isogen
* 2282 Nocxium
* 1549 Zydrine
* 363 Megacyte

1383840 - 1370340 = 13500 = ROUND(10000 * (1.25 + 10% / (0 + 1) - 0 * 0.05))
625342 - 625207 = 135 = ROUND(100 * (1.25 + 10% / (0 + 1) - 0 * 0.05))
59947 - 59933 = 14 = ROUND(10 * (1.25 + 10% / (0 + 1) - 0 * 0.05))
11399 - 11385 = 14 = ROUND(10 * (1.25 + 10% / (0 + 1) - 0 * 0.05))
2282 - 2268 = 14 = ROUND(10 * (1.25 + 10% / (0 + 1) - 0 * 0.05))
1549 - 1535 = 14 = ROUND(10 * (1.25 + 10% / (0 + 1) - 0 * 0.05))
363 - 349 = 14 = ROUND(10 * (1.25 + 10% / (0 + 1) - 0 * 0.05))

So once again I claim PE skill does not apply to extra, and I think your database numbers are wrong (13).

You used a show info. Try it with an actual manufacturing quote!
I made a new thread here, let's discuss there and not further derail this one Very Happy


 

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only