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Myxx
Atropos Group
Posted - 2011.07.30 22:50:00 - [1]
 

Since I assume the A'j mailing list is going to get swamped with my formal announcement of it, I've decided I'll let people just discuss it here instead, so as to not bother people who read the mailing list for informative reasons be swamped even further than they are.

Quote:
Project Macaper's Eye (Overview Document)
From: Myxx
To: Arek'jaalan, Hilen Tukoss, Vanneth
It is time that I formally introduce this effort into public light. Many already know of it as the research into sleeper tech inside the Aurora Ominae superweapon.

I had at first intended to take my time and wait for two blueprint copies to surface and make their way to me because firstly, I don't feel its an inititive that needs to be taken in a rushed manner and secondly, I didn't feel as if there was a need to ask for donations of BPOS or functioning weapons. I did not initially accept any donations because it hadn't been worked out if any of it would ever be returned to their initial owners.

To that end, regardless of my desire to take things slowly, two BPOs have been aquired by the aquisitions team. Thanks must be given to them, and specifically Pilot Antiquarian.

One blueprint original will be making its way to Dr. Tukoss within the next few days under secure and anonymous transportation. Transportation is being provided by a third party unrelated to any political or military faction in new eden. They have specific, and intracate knowledge of transporting goods worth multipile billions of isk each day.

The second will be taken to a remote destination for three or so weeks, give or take five days to be looked over and improved for efficency in manufacturing processes.

Afterwards, the second will be used in the manufacturing process to create a functioning Aurora Ominae superweapon.

The Aurora Ominae will then be delivered, again anonymously and securely to Dr. Tukoss for analysis alongside the blueprint regarding sleeper technology, its functions inside the weapon and other application possibilities.


As I mentioned to Dr. Tukoss privately regarding this proposal,

My initial thoughts are that it would be nice to know the origin of the technology that is reverse engineered. That is, what aspects of its design come from the sleepers? On a technical and technological level it would be very interesting, I think at least, to know how sleeper tech that pre-dates the wormholes by a good many years made its way into a rather common weapon of mass destruction.


--

Yuni put the reason I'm building one more elegantly than I would,

Quote:
Pilot. The item in question can only be utilised when fitted to a vessel that cannot be piloted within high security space.

Considering the fact that pilot Tukoss is based within Matari High security space, your fears that such a weapon will be used are utterly unfounded.

Secondly, blueprints do not allow physical examination of a device. Physical examination of a functional device will in general produce a much wider set of results, as parts of the device can be purposefully offlined or even removed to allow for theoretical study to become practical examination.

Without practical application of scientific theory, the theory will remain just that.

This project is valid in our eyes, and may be of use to the Arek'Jaalan project as a whole, as it is reportedly the first instance of reverse engineering of Sleeper technologies by any of the 4 empires. and may therefore reveal more detail concerning the technologies in question.


Tykari
Gallente
Effective Deconstruction Initiative
Neon Equinox
Posted - 2011.07.30 23:20:00 - [2]
 

I would like to point out though that while yes, under normal circumstances a doomsday device can only be fitted on ships that aren't tolerated in high security space one should consider that doesn't exclude the possibility of it being installed into something else. It would be difficult but not impossible. But on the whole I do agree that it could be worth investigating how the Sleeper technology is implemented.

Gosakumori Noh
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2011.07.30 23:59:00 - [3]
 

Any risk in such a project seems quite minimal in comparison to potential gain. It is not as if these weapons are not already in circulation.

Why, just the other week, I was floating next to a titan wondering why it hadn't launched my little logistics vessel to some far and distant star along with the rest of the fleet. Boy, didn't I feel small sitting there all by myself next to that beast. Actually, I believe there was one other n00b in the whale's eye with me. As it turns out, we had taken the order "do not bump the titan under any circumstances or else" a bit too much to heart. And then today, I could not for the life of me figure out why the jump bridge, which I was most assuredly bumping, would not light up. Yes, yes, for jump gates, click here; for jump portals, click somewhere else. Too much clicking! Who the hell designed these ship interfaces!?

What were we talking about? Right, super weapons!

If Tookie wants to fondle a giant phallus, what's the big deal? Can't a certain sovereign just ask her nefarious lover to let him play with hers?

Myyona
Minmatar
Ataraxia Pharmacies
Posted - 2011.07.31 11:47:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Myyona on 31/07/2011 11:48:52
With capital fleets laying waste to CONCORD HQ, a single Abaddon sporting a weapon capable of devastating an entire fleet, Sansha super capitals appearing all over high sec space and abduct people in the thousands and still continue to challenge capsulers for supremacy of high sec space to this day, I am not going to sit here to discuss what is and what is not "possible".

My major concern, and the one most pressing for answers, is the from this communique which was the first on this particular research topic:
Originally by: The Antiquarian
Greetings,

On behalf of the Arek'Jaalan Acquisition Division, we wanted to ask the community whether any munificent individuals have two spare Aurora Ominae Doomsday Weapon BPC lying around the hangers, collecting ages of dust.

The 2 x BPCs will be used by a prominent member of our community officially sanctioned by our Dr. Hilen Tukoss himself, for a project that would potentially yield much value.

We humbly ask you for the help. Please contact us if you are interested.

Kind regards,
Arek'Jaalan Acquisition Division

The Aurora Ominae is the finest/worst example on how Sleeper technology can be used for massive destruction, and why the good doctor would have a particular interest in promoting this side of the technology is worrisome. Especially as no preliminary analysis, theories or tests have been conducted, or even considered.

Simply put; is the final aim of this project a step of progress for all mankind or is it total annihilation?

With groups like Equilibrium of Mankind hiding in the shadows there is a need to be aware. Dr. Tukoss choice and interpretation of the name of the project itself should also raise a warning light.

I know the doctor is busy with other matters these days and I will let him speak for himself. But, if things goes for the worst I would rather spend my efforts adding to the State Nationalists bounty pot than participating in the development of weapons with even greater destructive potential.

Revan Neferis
Amarr
Propaganda Due
Posted - 2011.07.31 13:21:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Gosakumori Noh
What were we talking about? Right, super weapons!

If Tookie wants to fondle a giant phallus, what's the big deal? Can't a certain sovereign just ask her nefarious lover to let him play with hers?


Absolutely. Either that or our own, I know that a certain Captain would love a reason to move them from Delve.
Anyways... People make a big deal of such simple things.

Revan Neferis
Thrice-Illustrious Sovereign
Sani Sabik



Myxx
Atropos Group
Posted - 2011.07.31 13:42:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Myxx on 31/07/2011 13:42:47
A great many people intend to try to stop my project, they accuse me and the good doctor of any number of things all on a baseless fear.

They don't understand what it is that I am constructing. They act as if it is some sort of... threat to Empire space. They think that because it is a superweapon, that it is automatically to be used for destruction.

Well, for my end of it, I intend to follow through with my schedule outlined above for the intended purpose of education and scientific knowledge. If Dr. Tukoss wants to reject delivery and decide to cater to fearmongerers, that is on him. I sincerely hope he does not. I think that it would be a tragedy to cater to people who would start baseless rumors to stifle the progress of scientific knowledge.

For the fearmongerers, for my end of it there is practically nothing that can be done to make me stop in my tracks and I refuse to give in to you.

Darveses
Fantastulousification Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.31 13:45:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Myxx

For the fearmongerers, for my end of it there is practically nothing that can be done to make me stop in my tracks and I refuse to give in to you.


Reassurance right there.

Odelya d'Hanguest
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES
Posted - 2011.07.31 14:29:00 - [8]
 

What a brilliant scientific community you are. Now we see unauthorised construction attempts of weapons of mass destruction and a quarrel about proceedings, purpose and security concerns even within the clique. I can only restate what I have laid out elsewhere. Nihil contrariatur actui virtutis nisi peccatum. Sed bellum contrariatur paci. Arek’jaalan is a criminal body and citizens of the Empire and the Kingdom should oppose it with all possible means. Anarchy and tyranny concealed by newspeak of science and progress will not be tolerated.

Therefore, I ask all men loyal to religion and state to prepare to end the doings of the Tukoss clique.

Let security and order be restored!

In the name of the Lord.

Commodore Odelya d'Hanguest
Snow Orchid in the Sacred Flower Garden

Myxx
Atropos Group
Posted - 2011.07.31 14:51:00 - [9]
 

More baseless fearmongering, I see...

Verone
Gallente
Veto Corp
Posted - 2011.07.31 15:04:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Myxx
More baseless fearmongering, I see...


Fits nicely inline with your baseless claims, baseless theories, and lack of clear facts, many of which you have completely wrong, as has been pointed out repeatedly by people involved with the project.


Gosakumori Noh
Amarr
Viziam
Posted - 2011.07.31 19:07:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Myyona
Simply put; is the final aim of this project a step of progress for all mankind or is it total annihilation?


The phoenix rises from her ashes. I applaud Myxx for thinking outside the box, and look forward to the spread of radiant wings.

That said, for me the most significant feature of a titan is not its weapon, but the capacity to ejaculate fleets. If we adjusted the sensor cluster on such a ship to lock its jump portal onto the signature of the EVE Gate (as if it were a cynosural field) we could project research craft to the very foot of Heaven's Door.


Myxx
Atropos Group
Posted - 2011.08.01 01:37:00 - [12]
 

For anyone still concerned, the Ethics Committee currently stands at my side. If a ruling by that much of a diverse body doesn't calm your fears, I'm not sure what will.

Anneka Tong
B. S. Radioactive Sheep Farm
Posted - 2011.08.01 05:17:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Myxx
For anyone still concerned, the Ethics Committee currently stands at my side. If a ruling by that much of a diverse body doesn't calm your fears, I'm not sure what will.


I sent a message to the Arek'jaalan mailing list outlining some concerns:

Quote:
Project Macaper's Eye - criticism
From: Anneka Tong
To: Arek'jaalan
The proposal is vague and undefined, and there are several concerns about the validity of any results, the safety of conducting experiments, and the process by which this proposal was approved.

A better proposal would have been formatted along the lines of:

Introduction: Publicly available knowledge about practical application of Sleeper technologies is limited. The Project seeks to improve this situation through careful examination of a known item that incorporates Sleeper technology. The item concerned is a Federation Navy designed superweapon, routinely fitted to Titan class vessels.

Research Aims for this Project are:
1. To investigate the extent to which Sleeper technologies have practical applications to New Eden's society.
2. To increase the publically available knowledge of Sleeper technology.

Literature Review: An overview of the relevant publications relating to Sleeper technologies (probably rather slim)

Methodology: A description of what is going to be done, and why.

Data Assessment: A description of how the results will be analysed.

Timeframe: An overview of various project milestones

Budget: What resources (Materials and personnel) would be necessary.


That is how research proposals are normally submitted. Why has this not been done? This is a concern, as the process of project approval by Hilen Tukoss has to be above board, for political reasons. There are already rumours that the Republic is uneasy, and that the Khanid Kingdom are poking around. Having vaguely defined "research" is an invitation for a bunch of Valklears or Kamieras to suddenly arrive and tear down the entire Arek'Jaalan project.

Other concerns would be the validity of results. Dissecting the device and the blueprint would reveal the mechanisms it employs, but how is it that the Sleeper technologies will be recognisable, compared to the other Federation Navy proprietary technologies employed in the device? I.e. A computer hardware module on the device, is that a native Federation design, or a Sleeper derived one? Can you point at any particular piece and say "This is not a thing that has been developed in New Eden" ?

The safety of the project is also a concern. The device is a large-scale antimatter projector, and as such, should be handled with a degree of care aboard the Eram station where Dr. Tukoss is located. A failure of the device under testing would pose a significant risk to the station. What procedures and protocols are in place to mitigate this? What Risk Assessments have been conducted? There would be further political objections from the station owners and the Republic. These need to be addressed.

So, there are several concerns about the nature of the project, and these have to be addressed.



Are you saying those concerns are Not going to be addressed by you?

Myxx
Atropos Group
Posted - 2011.08.01 13:07:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Myxx on 01/08/2011 13:10:41
so your question is why haven't I written up a lengthy document detailing every single aspect of it?

Initially, I was pretty content with taking it quite a bit slower. And then in asking for assistance in finding BPCs, my request became public. Everyone seems to have gotten very loud over it. This created problems for me while I was actually discussing exact proposals with Hilen in something of a less formal manner, more or less consisting of bouncing thoughts off of him before I did write anything up.

and then, two blueprint originals were more or less shoved into my hands. That made the above document quite more or less a requirement in my mind, for the sake of being open in what, exactly was going to happen.

In short, ive been rushed by the actions of others via people being loud and various threats of violence against me/my project. It was actually in the process of happening until my insistence of taking things slowly was ignored.

And between this, the rogue drones division and some other unrelated things, I've now been swamped with more stuff than I can do at once. A lot of people don't see it, theres only so much I can do at once alone. This is why I had to make requests to Antiquarian regarding BPCs. A lot of times I must delegate work out.

But yes, its on the way.

Anneka Tong
B. S. Radioactive Sheep Farm
Posted - 2011.08.01 17:49:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Myxx

so your question is why haven't I written up a lengthy document detailing every single aspect of it?



No.

The Questions are:

1. Was the political danger of such a vague project considered? It is the sort of thing that several persons may be interested in. Consider, the Serpentis agents that have been wandering around. The Serpentis have a Solteur-class Titan, which I do not know the details of, but the Serpentis or their Angel allies may be able to fit an Aurora Ominae to the Solteur and make it work. They may attempt to obtain the device, and thus proper procedures have to be in place. A rush job endangers everyone and everything.

2. What is the method of study, and how confident is anyone of being able to positively identify anything that is Sleeper-derived? The device is designed by the Federation Navy, and they may have used some Sleeper derived technologies in this Second variant of the Aurora, but the blueprint has been designed to use the standard mix of minerals and components that all New-Eden built ships do. E.g. A magnetic field generator, can you tell if it is designed according to University of Caille theories, or from other sources? I have doubts about that, when the devices are all locally constructed.
In addition, the Second Variant Aurora Ominae is relatively new, appearing half a year after the Seyllin incident. The Original variant appeared long after the sleeper artifacts were discovered in Ani constellation - the Nefantar operated a research facility for decades there.

And has the possibility been considered that it is all a Bluff by the Federation Navy, in a propaganda war with their enemies? By claiming to use sleeper-derived reverse engineered technologies, it means less scrutiny is placed on research facilities that are known not to process Sleeper relics. Media manipulation is one of the Federations greatest strengths. When there are two facilities, one doing research into plasma reactors, one looking at Sleeper relics, if you announce a new device uses sleeper technologies, then that facility is scrutinised more, whereas the plasma reactor one is not scrutinised as much.

3. What risk assessments have been carried out to ensure the safety of the device, the research team, and the station the experiment is on during experimentation ? Potential threats would include terrorism, sabotage, experimental malfunction, and several others.

Myxx
Atropos Group
Posted - 2011.08.01 18:19:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Anneka Tong
Originally by: Myxx

so your question is why haven't I written up a lengthy document detailing every single aspect of it?



No.

The Questions are:

1. Was the political danger of such a vague project considered? It is the sort of thing that several persons may be interested in. Consider, the Serpentis agents that have been wandering around. The Serpentis have a Solteur-class Titan, which I do not know the details of, but the Serpentis or their Angel allies may be able to fit an Aurora Ominae to the Solteur and make it work. They may attempt to obtain the device, and thus proper procedures have to be in place. A rush job endangers everyone and everything.

3. What risk assessments have been carried out to ensure the safety of the device, the research team, and the station the experiment is on during experimentation ? Potential threats would include terrorism, sabotage, experimental malfunction, and several others.


Some of these questions are bordering on asking about methods I'm prepared to introduce to ensure the project's safety. What I can say is that I have some of the very finest of minds in New Eden at my disposal. Each and every threat posed to the project is being taken as if it will happen, no matter the likelyhood of it ever coming to pass. The device, the station its being built in, the transports for the minerals and blueprints all have armed escorts and guards that are trained for such situations and have the needed experience to be successful should they be required. I wish I could explain more, but because of the very nature of it, I can't. I hope thats enough for you.

Quote:
2. What is the method of study, and how confident is anyone of being able to positively identify anything that is Sleeper-derived? The device is designed by the Federation Navy, and they may have used some Sleeper derived technologies in this Second variant of the Aurora, but the blueprint has been designed to use the standard mix of minerals and components that all New-Eden built ships do. E.g. A magnetic field generator, can you tell if it is designed according to University of Caille theories, or from other sources? I have doubts about that, when the devices are all locally constructed.
In addition, the Second Variant Aurora Ominae is relatively new, appearing half a year after the Seyllin incident. The Original variant appeared long after the sleeper artifacts were discovered in Ani constellation - the Nefantar operated a research facility for decades there.

And has the possibility been considered that it is all a Bluff by the Federation Navy, in a propaganda war with their enemies? By claiming to use sleeper-derived reverse engineered technologies, it means less scrutiny is placed on research facilities that are known not to process Sleeper relics. Media manipulation is one of the Federations greatest strengths. When there are two facilities, one doing research into plasma reactors, one looking at Sleeper relics, if you announce a new device uses sleeper technologies, then that facility is scrutinised more, whereas the plasma reactor one is not scrutinised as much.


To the first part, I'm very confident of the people studying it to be able to identify anything sleeper derived. Thats mostly the purpose of it - to look at what technology inside it is from them, and what other applications they have along with where they come from in origin. Be it Ani or Anoikis proper, or elsewhere.

Again, I have some of the top minds in New Eden involved, they're extremely capable people. I've considered that its possible its all a bluff, having worked for the Federation itself in the past. If that's the case, I'm confident we can figure it out as many of my employees also come from Federation backgrounds.

Lucius Vindictus
Amarr
East Khanid Trading
Khanid Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.08.01 18:24:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Lucius Vindictus on 01/08/2011 18:25:23
Anneka Tong, though I remain skeptical I am somewhat relieved to finally see a pragmatic and analytical counterweight to some of the louder voices involved in the Arek'jaalan project. It makes me start to see that the loudest voices aren't the only ones, and thus not necessarily representative of the whole project.


 

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