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blankseplocked T1 BC are OP AND T1 Cruisers are Garbage
 
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Amelia Arde
Posted - 2011.07.31 15:53:00 - [31]
 

The very first thing you should look at is the name "Battlecruiser".

Battlecruisers are MEANT to kill cruisers. It's what they're there for. It's why they use meduin sized weapon systems (so they can better hit cruisers). If they weren't better there would be a massive balance problem.

It's exactly the same deal with frigates and destroyers. Destroyers are there to kill frigates. Although, that said there are balancing issues with destroyers so some are pretty pants. But a thrasher should be able to kill any T1 frig because that's what it's MEANT to do.

However, destroyers are decimated by cruisers, as they should be. Mainly because they have a higher signature radius then frigates so will take much more damage from medium sized weapons. A competent trio of frigs should be able to take down a t1 cruiser, but a trio of dessies should be destroyed. It's the same with battlecruisers and battleships. Battleships will wail of BCs like there's no tomorrow and absolutely annihilate them. Cruisers should last longer because they can mitigate damage much better.

Also, to answer the OP - Hurricane's are not OP. Any decent arbitrator pilot should have any easy time against one. Remember, EVE is just a big game of Rock, paper, scissors.

Ultim8Evil
Ministry Of Eternal Disorder
Posted - 2011.07.31 15:54:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Reldor Silverheart
One word:
Stabber


Another word:

Arbitrator

Hiroshima Jita
Posted - 2011.07.31 16:20:00 - [33]
 

The Stabber does something that BC cant do yes. It goes 3 klicks with 2 Nanos. At that speed it hauls such a pidly ammount of DPS and poor tank on a cruiser sized signature that it compares poorly with frigates that go the same speed.

I will admit that it isn't overshadowed by a BC.

The bait Maller is overshadowed by a Hurricane/Myrmidon/Prophecy/Harbinger/Brutix(?) fit with 2 1600mm plates. And because there are other ways to fit those BC they aren't immediately obvious as bait. Also a buffer fit drake does the job just about as well while carrying solid DPS into the battle.

The ewar cruisers other than the blackbird can be replaced by a Drake using its midslots to fit ewar. The Drake will outtank them in shield or armor and will provide solid DPS compared to what they can do.

Cost should not be the only determining factor in a ship's performance. If it was then a Hyperion would obsolete a Taranis. In reality a Hyperion will beat a Taranis in combat. But there are numerous situations in which one would be much more useful than the other. The Taranis still has value despite the existance of the Hyperion.

T1 Battlecruisers were not designed to carry a different role than T1 cruisers they were designed to be the same but better.

And the cost is not significantly different. A T1 BC fit with T2 mods and T1 rigs costs 60-70 mil and insures for about 20 mil. A T1 Cruiser fit with T2 mods and T1 rigs costs about 35 mil and insures for about 5 mil. The difference in cost is so minor that no serious pvp orginization even considers it when selecting ships.

'Good' ships right now that get used in serious fleets
Small Size
T2 Frigates, Faction Frigates, Dictors
Medium Size
T3 Cruisers, T2 Cruisers, Faction Cruisers, BC
Large Size
T1 BS, Machariels

T2 and faction BS are considered too expensive to see regular use.
T1 Cruisers and T1 Frigates are considred to crap to see regular use.

The irony though, is that a pilot can bring one of the few good T1 frigates, like the Rifter and be considered useful tackle. If they tried to bring a Rupture they would invoke the scorn of their buddies.

I don't care if you're noobie groups are happy smashing T1 cruisers against things to see what happens. I dont care if the faction warfare crap blob is comprised of random **** with T1 cruisers mixed in. I don't care if the renter fleet is full of garbgage ships like T1 cruisers.

Even the pvp impaired horrible blob coalition sov holders know to stick their members in drakes if nothing else. Generally they demand much more. AB HACS, Alpha BS, Hellcats. The lowsec pirates that know whats up are going to be rolling BS and BC.

WHEN A PILOT LOOKS FOR A CHEAP PVP BOAT TO PEWPEW IN T1 CRUISERS SHOULD BE A SOLID OPTION. BC SHOULD PROVIDE SOMETHING DIFFERENT THAT ISN'T ALWAYS BETTER.

As it is now the only reason to pull out T1 cruisers is to laugh at the people who die to them and get timid risk averse people to underestimate you and fight.

If BC simply got nerfed people still probably wouldn't fly T1 cruisers. They'd still have problems and be garbage. BC need to be nerfed/changed and T1 crusiers need to be buffed to at least be the level of the tier 3 varients. The teir system is bull**** at this time.


Nin Kimrov
Minmatar
Kenzi Arms and Munitions
Posted - 2011.07.31 16:39:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Amelia Arde
The very first thing you should look at is the name "Battlecruiser".

Battlecruisers are MEANT to kill cruisers. It's what they're there for. It's why they use meduin sized weapon systems (so they can better hit cruisers). If they weren't better there would be a massive balance problem.

It's exactly the same deal with frigates and destroyers. Destroyers are there to kill frigates. Although, that said there are balancing issues with destroyers so some are pretty pants. But a thrasher should be able to kill any T1 frig because that's what it's MEANT to do.

However, destroyers are decimated by cruisers, as they should be. Mainly because they have a higher signature radius then frigates so will take much more damage from medium sized weapons. A competent trio of frigs should be able to take down a t1 cruiser, but a trio of dessies should be destroyed. It's the same with battlecruisers and battleships. Battleships will wail of BCs like there's no tomorrow and absolutely annihilate them. Cruisers should last longer because they can mitigate damage much better.

Also, to answer the OP - Hurricane's are not OP. Any decent arbitrator pilot should have any easy time against one. Remember, EVE is just a big game of Rock, paper, scissors.


In reality, battlecruiser in a navy perspective is a cruiser with battleship weapons.

Hiroshima Jita
Posted - 2011.07.31 16:45:00 - [35]
 

How does a competent Hurricane pilot lose to a competent Arbitrator pilot?

If the Cane is shield-nano-disruptor and the Arbitrator is armor all the cane has to do is kill the Arbitrator's drones. Then he can kite the Arbitrator as long as he wants and the Arbitrator will die slowly. Yeah the Arbitrator can jump out or dock in time probably. Thats not winning.

If the Cane is shield-nano-scram and the Arbitrator is armor then the Arbitrator will need nos not to cap out to those two medium neuts and die horribly. And if the Arbitrator is fitting nos hes going to die if a dramiel gets on him and he cant neut it off.

If the Cane is shield-nano-disruptor and the Arbitrator is shield-nano sure it will catch the Cane. It will need nos not to get neuted out, and then it will probably die anyway because it doesn't have enough mids to fit a usable shield tank and tracking disrupt the Cane.

If the Cane is shield-nano-scram OR armor and the Arbitrator is armor-NOS-AB then yes it has a chance of beating that cane. Just a chance. You know what that arbitrator can't do? Survive a frigate getting on it. Survive jumping into a gatecamp. Anything that depends on movement. Do anything about a warp disruptor Cane. That Arbitrator had better hope the Cane doesn't explode its drones while its piddly DPS goes to work. The Arbitrator better hope that the Cane doesn't just slowboat back to the gate.

Now lets assume you're talking about a fleet fight. The question isn't will an Arbitrator be useful against hurricanes. The question is will an Arbitrator bring much to the table as another ship. How about instead of an Arbitrator you bring an Armor tanked Cane with 2 TD or 3 if you don't feel the need for a point. You'll have more HP, roughly the same speed, be providing more DPS for your side and be less of an obvious easy primary.

Or how about a Drake with AML and a 1600mm plate. If you really want to carry TDs into battle a Drake can do 5 for you. Would you like to theorycraft what would happen if an Arbitrator got in a 1V1 with that kind of Drake? My theory is that the TDs would all be useless and the Drake would blow up the Arbitrator's drones with ease. Then the drake would slowly eat the Arbitrator.

Precisionist
Posted - 2011.07.31 16:57:00 - [36]
 

This shouldnt be a problem you should be askin why are t2 cruisers crappier than tier 2 battlecruisers.

1600 RT
Posted - 2011.07.31 20:55:00 - [37]
 

give to BCs a negative bonus like destroyers

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2011.07.31 22:10:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 31/07/2011 22:14:17
Originally by: Reldor Silverheart
One word:
Stabber


The Stabber is trash, even compared to other T1 cruisers.

Quote:
it costs 6 to 8 times more than any t1 cruiser ... for those isk , you bet it should surpass the cruisers


Ever heard of insurance? Rolling Eyes

Quote:
So you're saying a ship type that is designed to be better than a cruiser is better than a cruiser?


Yes, because every ship size is designed to be better than the one before it, that's why nobody flies frigates in this game.

Quote:
Battlecruisers are supposed to be better than cruisers in all aspects except mobility / sig radius .


And here lies the problem - cruiser mobility is way too close to BC mobility. This needs to change.

Quote:
Cruisers are very viable. Cruisers are designed to have good firepower but still have the ability to engage frigates. The Minmatar (speed) and Gallente (drones) are very good at this.


Battlecruisers do this as well, but better. Do you ever PVP?

Quote:
However battlecruisers are easily defeated once a frigate gets a web on them


... Yeah, please do try wandering into web/neut range of my hurricane. See where that gets you Very Happy

Quote:
When you want to hunt frigates you can use a cruiser.


You have utterly failed to explain why cruisers are better at hunting frigates. (Hint: they aren't.)

Quote:
Battlecruisers are MEANT to kill cruisers. It's what they're there for. It's why they use meduin sized weapon systems (so they can better hit cruisers). If they weren't better there would be a massive balance problem.


Battlecruisers killing cruisers is fine, but it's also not the issue here. The issue is that battlecruisers take basically every role cruisers have, besides stuff like the Blackbird, and still manage to be very affordable.


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