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blankseplocked China is going to laugh at us if we don't fix the national debt.
 
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Ayieka
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.29 17:06:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Ayieka on 29/07/2011 17:06:32
link
so this is like, the worst political commercial ive ever seen.
the title says its banned, but im pretty sure i just saw it yesterday in a youtube video ad.

edit: it might help if i linked the video

Cruzin LikeABaws
Posted - 2011.07.29 17:41:00 - [2]
 

So according to this video, US failed because they gave up their capitalistic principles and followed a more socialistic approach, yet their dept and therefore they themselves are owned by the next superpower who is, according to the images at the end of the video, an old fashioned communist China. Yeah that makes sense.

ChaeDoc II
Gallente
Sigillum Militum Xpisti
Important Internet Spaceship League
Posted - 2011.07.29 17:46:00 - [3]
 

Not just China

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.29 17:56:00 - [4]
 

China owns around 8% of the US national debt. US citizens own the majority of the US debt.

link to pretty graph

Nimrod Nemesis
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2011.07.29 18:20:00 - [5]
 

Go go tea-party, ****block this debt bill so we can herald in the second coming of our lord!

Kalle Demos
Amarr
Helix Protocol
Posted - 2011.07.29 19:29:00 - [6]
 

Good!

About time a balanced country is in power

Nimrod Nemesis
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2011.07.29 20:33:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Kalle Demos
Good!

About time a balanced country is in power


Breaking news: The queen of england claims credit for the resurgent criminal tea party attacks on the legislature!

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

When asked for comment, she replied simply: "Why so serious?"

More at 11.

Bodrul
Caldari
Caldari Provisions
Posted - 2011.07.29 20:38:00 - [8]
 

No Empire lasts forever :P



Estephania
Independent Political Analysts
Posted - 2011.07.29 21:36:00 - [9]
 

The debt should not be increased, even if the price for that is default. It is better to default now on 14 trillion than 2 years later on 30 trillion. What the administration is trying to do is a giant worldwide Ponzi scheme. Without actually balancing the budget it will all explode sooner or later.

Ayieka
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.29 21:40:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Estephania
The debt should not be increased, even if the price for that is default. It is better to default now on 14 trillion than 2 years later on 30 trillion. What the administration is trying to do is a giant worldwide Ponzi scheme. Without actually balancing the budget it will all explode sooner or later.


do you fully understand the consequences of the US defaulting?

James Syagrius
Gallente
Advent Ltd.
Posted - 2011.07.29 22:01:00 - [11]
 

Intresting thread.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.29 22:19:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Estephania
The debt should not be increased, even if the price for that is default. It is better to default now on 14 trillion than 2 years later on 30 trillion. What the administration is trying to do is a giant worldwide Ponzi scheme. Without actually balancing the budget it will all explode sooner or later.


Spoken like a naive youngster. This isn't a Hollywood movie where the hero pulls out a super spectacularly dramatic solution from his arse in the final minutes before doomsday and causes the bad guy's lair/death-ray/evil-army to spontaneously explode thus saving the day and letting everyone live happily ever after.


Cutting everything in the federal budget by 30-40% at once would be horrendous. It's too much of a shock to the system. It would most likely crash the economy with all those federal employees suddenly becoming jobless, plus any businesses that rely on government projects or grants would suddenly have to cut back which would create more unemployment and further crash the economy.

Remember the Automotive bailout and how Ford said that if GM/Chrysler failed, it would cause their suppliers to fail which would then cripple Ford? Same idea, but bigger and would affect all sectors of the economy.

The economy can't absorb that much change in such a short time without crashing and taking most of us with it.


Plus, defaulting will raise interest rates. Part of the problem the US economy is having is that businesses are having trouble getting credit since banks have been stuck with toxic assess from the financial scandal/meltdown and are reluctant to lend. Hiking interest rates is just going to make getting credit difficult and more expensive for businesses. Then as the economy gets worse, there's less Federal income, which makes the budget shortfall even bigger.


A better plan is to raise the debt ceiling now to pay for the stuff Congress has already bought for this fiscal year. We hound Congress to create and stick to a budget plan that gets us out of debt steadily over time.

Time, discipline, and having a plan are the means to reducing the deficit and balancing the budget. The last thing anyone needs is a solution full of Drama.


Estephania
Independent Political Analysts
Posted - 2011.07.29 22:39:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux
Originally by: Estephania
The debt should not be increased, even if the price for that is default. It is better to default now on 14 trillion than 2 years later on 30 trillion. What the administration is trying to do is a giant worldwide Ponzi scheme. Without actually balancing the budget it will all explode sooner or later.


Spoken like a naive youngster. This isn't a Hollywood movie where the hero pulls out a super spectacularly dramatic solution from his arse in the final minutes before doomsday and causes the bad guy's lair/death-ray/evil-army to spontaneously explode thus saving the day and letting everyone live happily ever after.


Cutting everything in the federal budget by 30-40% at once would be horrendous. It's too much of a shock to the system. It would most likely crash the economy with all those federal employees suddenly becoming jobless, plus any businesses that rely on government projects or grants would suddenly have to cut back which would create more unemployment and further crash the economy.

Remember the Automotive bailout and how Ford said that if GM/Chrysler failed, it would cause their suppliers to fail which would then cripple Ford? Same idea, but bigger and would affect all sectors of the economy.

The economy can't absorb that much change in such a short time without crashing and taking most of us with it.


Plus, defaulting will raise interest rates. Part of the problem the US economy is having is that businesses are having trouble getting credit since banks have been stuck with toxic assess from the financial scandal/meltdown and are reluctant to lend. Hiking interest rates is just going to make getting credit difficult and more expensive for businesses. Then as the economy gets worse, there's less Federal income, which makes the budget shortfall even bigger.


A better plan is to raise the debt ceiling now to pay for the stuff Congress has already bought for this fiscal year. We hound Congress to create and stick to a budget plan that gets us out of debt steadily over time.

Time, discipline, and having a plan are the means to reducing the deficit and balancing the budget. The last thing anyone needs is a solution full of Drama.




I don't see any chance of the current debt being paid in a lifetime of anyone living at this moment. And tbh, I don't see anything that will even bring it down. The economy had cornered itself and so far no one presented a solution for the problem. Yes, I know that defaulting is a terrible option and the credit rating reduction is pretty much guaranteed in any case, but you can't increase that debt forever, and the bigger it grows the louder will be the explosion. If that blows in a couple of years and the US is keeping to borrow money at the same rate, it will end in a total collapse of the world economy.

Ademaro Imre
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.29 22:43:00 - [14]
 

Edited by: Ademaro Imre on 29/07/2011 22:51:18

The United States will not default under any scenario of the budget and debt ceiling talks, whether or not any legislation is passed. Anyone suggesting otherwise, is lying, or a dupe of politicians trying to scare people. There are over 200,000,000,000 in tax revenues collected each month. I am an eye witness to this, as I am filling out monthly 941 forms to submit all the social security, medicare, and federal withholding taxes of my employees right now. Interest payments on the current debt is about 30 bil, and the rest of the revenue can easily take care of social security, medicare and military/homeland security requirements, and then some. The only way the US will default, under any scenario, is if the President and the treasury dept. deliberately choose NOT to make interest payments.

The United States, will be downgraded though (just like most of Europe already has or will soon be) not because of a potential missed interest payment, but because of the balance sheets and the laws requiring entitlement payments in the face of 100 trillion in future outstanding liabilities under current law. Since the budgets and the deficit are not under any control, the US will be downgraded without a balanced budget amendment, eventually. In 2006, there was a 200 bil annual deficit, then when the congress changed hands, that deficit went to 550 billion, and Hope and Change launched the annual deficit to 1.3-1.5 trillion every year. That will be the reason for a well deserved downgrade.

Bane Necran
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.29 23:54:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Estephania
I don't see any chance of the current debt being paid in a lifetime of anyone living at this moment. And tbh, I don't see anything that will even bring it down. The economy had cornered itself and so far no one presented a solution for the problem. Yes, I know that defaulting is a terrible option and the credit rating reduction is pretty much guaranteed in any case, but you can't increase that debt forever, and the bigger it grows the louder will be the explosion. If that blows in a couple of years and the US is keeping to borrow money at the same rate, it will end in a total collapse of the world economy.


There clearly is no intention of ever paying it off. But it's not the federal reserve people should be pointing their fingers at, it's the military industrial complex. Eisenhower warned against exactly what is going on now. He saw, for the first time, massive amounts of tax dollars going into military and defence related corporations, knew they were becoming so powerful and money hungry that it threatened to overwhelm the US, and he was right. When the tax dollars weren't enough anymore, they began to run up a tab. All this debt people are talking about sure as hell didn't go towards anything to make life better for taxpaying citizens, it went towards wars, and military development. What's worse is your average US citizen is so brainwashed now they pretty much insist all money go towards war, and tax dollars being spent on taxpayers themselves is evil socialism.

The entire thing is a mess, and cannot go on forever. When it does collapse, all these corporations who've sucked the US dry will just relocate, and leave the US citizens holding the bag. A corporations only true allegiance is to itself.

Caleidascope
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.07.30 01:12:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Ademaro Imre
Edited by: Ademaro Imre on 29/07/2011 22:51:18

The United States will not default under any scenario of the budget and debt ceiling talks, whether or not any legislation is passed. Anyone suggesting otherwise, is lying, or a dupe of politicians trying to scare people. There are over 200,000,000,000 in tax revenues collected each month. I am an eye witness to this, as I am filling out monthly 941 forms to submit all the social security, medicare, and federal withholding taxes of my employees right now. Interest payments on the current debt is about 30 bil, and the rest of the revenue can easily take care of social security, medicare and military/homeland security requirements, and then some. The only way the US will default, under any scenario, is if the President and the treasury dept. deliberately choose NOT to make interest payments.

The United States, will be downgraded though (just like most of Europe already has or will soon be) not because of a potential missed interest payment, but because of the balance sheets and the laws requiring entitlement payments in the face of 100 trillion in future outstanding liabilities under current law. Since the budgets and the deficit are not under any control, the US will be downgraded without a balanced budget amendment, eventually. In 2006, there was a 200 bil annual deficit, then when the congress changed hands, that deficit went to 550 billion, and Hope and Change launched the annual deficit to 1.3-1.5 trillion every year. That will be the reason for a well deserved downgrade.

I support this post.

We don't need more debt. We already have plenty.


Selinate
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.30 01:24:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Caleidascope
Originally by: Ademaro Imre
Edited by: Ademaro Imre on 29/07/2011 22:51:18

The United States will not default under any scenario of the budget and debt ceiling talks, whether or not any legislation is passed. Anyone suggesting otherwise, is lying, or a dupe of politicians trying to scare people. There are over 200,000,000,000 in tax revenues collected each month. I am an eye witness to this, as I am filling out monthly 941 forms to submit all the social security, medicare, and federal withholding taxes of my employees right now. Interest payments on the current debt is about 30 bil, and the rest of the revenue can easily take care of social security, medicare and military/homeland security requirements, and then some. The only way the US will default, under any scenario, is if the President and the treasury dept. deliberately choose NOT to make interest payments.

The United States, will be downgraded though (just like most of Europe already has or will soon be) not because of a potential missed interest payment, but because of the balance sheets and the laws requiring entitlement payments in the face of 100 trillion in future outstanding liabilities under current law. Since the budgets and the deficit are not under any control, the US will be downgraded without a balanced budget amendment, eventually. In 2006, there was a 200 bil annual deficit, then when the congress changed hands, that deficit went to 550 billion, and Hope and Change launched the annual deficit to 1.3-1.5 trillion every year. That will be the reason for a well deserved downgrade.

I support this post.

We don't need more debt. We already have plenty.




Forgive me if I take economic experts' opinions on the possibility of a default over someone on an MMO forum....

Caleidascope
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.07.30 01:39:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Selinate
Originally by: Caleidascope
Originally by: Ademaro Imre
Edited by: Ademaro Imre on 29/07/2011 22:51:18

The United States will not default under any scenario of the budget and debt ceiling talks, whether or not any legislation is passed. Anyone suggesting otherwise, is lying, or a dupe of politicians trying to scare people. There are over 200,000,000,000 in tax revenues collected each month. I am an eye witness to this, as I am filling out monthly 941 forms to submit all the social security, medicare, and federal withholding taxes of my employees right now. Interest payments on the current debt is about 30 bil, and the rest of the revenue can easily take care of social security, medicare and military/homeland security requirements, and then some. The only way the US will default, under any scenario, is if the President and the treasury dept. deliberately choose NOT to make interest payments.

The United States, will be downgraded though (just like most of Europe already has or will soon be) not because of a potential missed interest payment, but because of the balance sheets and the laws requiring entitlement payments in the face of 100 trillion in future outstanding liabilities under current law. Since the budgets and the deficit are not under any control, the US will be downgraded without a balanced budget amendment, eventually. In 2006, there was a 200 bil annual deficit, then when the congress changed hands, that deficit went to 550 billion, and Hope and Change launched the annual deficit to 1.3-1.5 trillion every year. That will be the reason for a well deserved downgrade.

I support this post.

We don't need more debt. We already have plenty.




Forgive me if I take economic experts' opinions on the possibility of a default over someone on an MMO forum....

The same economic experts that did not see credit crisis in Greece? Ireland? Portugal? Italy? Those experts? Please do, their advice is great. You should make a bundle.



Out of curiosity. Does anyone know what was US credit rating before World War One? Before World War Two?

Selinate
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.30 01:42:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Caleidascope

The same economic experts that did not see credit crisis in Greece? Ireland? Portugal? Italy? Those experts? Please do, their advice is great. You should make a bundle.



Out of curiosity. Does anyone know what was US credit rating before World War One? Before World War Two?


Your sarcasm can only be matched by your probable ignorance on any issue that has to do with economics, like 99% of people who like to yell about it on the internet.

Caleidascope
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.07.30 01:50:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Selinate
Originally by: Caleidascope

The same economic experts that did not see credit crisis in Greece? Ireland? Portugal? Italy? Those experts? Please do, their advice is great. You should make a bundle.



Out of curiosity. Does anyone know what was US credit rating before World War One? Before World War Two?


Your sarcasm can only be matched by your probable ignorance on any issue that has to do with economics, like 99% of people who like to yell about it on the internet.

Does not change the fact that Greece bonds are rated junk now. Irish bonds are also rated junk. I have not looked at Portuguese or Spanish bonds lately, hopefully they are not rated junk.

US going from triple A to double A rating does not worry me. However, if we get further into debt, we just might end up being rated junk like the rest of the simpletons. I would like to avoid the fate of simpletons.

Culmen
Caldari
Culmenation
Posted - 2011.07.30 01:57:00 - [21]
 

I actually watched this commercial on TV in Baltimore.
It made broadcast.

I'd say it's rather optimistic, because it clearly shows that within 20 years China will have it's own Glenn Beck and might be on it's way down.

It demonstrates a nearly willful ignorance.
China spent on a stimulus package at roughly the same time the US did.
China specifically restarted it socialized health care initiative.
The key difference being China actually got stuff done, rather than filibusterering.

Nimrod Nemesis
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2011.07.30 02:05:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: stoicfaux

Spoken like a naive youngster. This isn't a Hollywood movie where the hero pulls out a super spectacularly dramatic solution from his arse in the final minutes before doomsday and causes the bad guy's lair/death-ray/evil-army to spontaneously explode thus saving the day and letting everyone live happily ever after.


Cutting everything in the federal budget by 30-40% at once would be horrendous. It's too much of a shock to the system. It would most likely crash the economy with all those federal employees suddenly becoming jobless, plus any businesses that rely on government projects or grants would suddenly have to cut back which would create more unemployment and further crash the economy.

Remember the Automotive bailout and how Ford said that if GM/Chrysler failed, it would cause their suppliers to fail which would then cripple Ford? Same idea, but bigger and would affect all sectors of the economy.

The economy can't absorb that much change in such a short time without crashing and taking most of us with it.


Plus, defaulting will raise interest rates. Part of the problem the US economy is having is that businesses are having trouble getting credit since banks have been stuck with toxic assess from the financial scandal/meltdown and are reluctant to lend. Hiking interest rates is just going to make getting credit difficult and more expensive for businesses. Then as the economy gets worse, there's less Federal income, which makes the budget shortfall even bigger.


A better plan is to raise the debt ceiling now to pay for the stuff Congress has already bought for this fiscal year. We hound Congress to create and stick to a budget plan that gets us out of debt steadily over time.

Time, discipline, and having a plan are the means to reducing the deficit and balancing the budget. The last thing anyone needs is a solution full of Drama.




Good post.

Ayieka
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.30 02:05:00 - [23]
 

i just don't like how it shows china as some kind of evil force that we have to keep from taking power. cause apparently if america stops being no. 1, the world will just explode.

Selinate
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.30 03:16:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Ayieka
i just don't like how it shows china as some kind of evil force that we have to keep from taking power. cause apparently if america stops being no. 1, the world will just explode.


I'm separating the Chinese government from the Chinese people while saying this, just as a disclaimer...

I have problems with a country who supports regimes like that of North Korea, Iran, and even the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. I am not interested in the least in having a government like that being number 1. Their government is incredibly selfish and self serving (much more so than the U.S. government no matter how any Europeans in this thread want to spin it), and I would much rather have the U.S., who at least tries to do some good for others, in that position.

Nimrod Nemesis
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2011.07.30 03:27:00 - [25]
 

Edited by: Nimrod Nemesis on 30/07/2011 03:29:24
The Chinese government isn't playing politics with any worse characters than we did in the cold-war era and i'm saying this as someone who's been in US foreign policy for quite a while. I do recognize they're decades behind the US and EU in a lot of respects (human rights, to name one), but my view is these things change with time. China will soften up, or it will simply smother it's own potential in the same way the former Soviet Union choked Russian advances in the 20th century. Either way, the rest of the world won't have to worry about new malevolent overlords.

和平

Selinate
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.30 03:34:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Nimrod Nemesis
Edited by: Nimrod Nemesis on 30/07/2011 03:29:24
The Chinese government isn't playing politics with any worse characters than we did in the cold-war era and i'm saying this as someone who's been in US foreign policy for quite a while. I do recognize they're decades behind the US and EU in a lot of respects (human rights, to name one), but my view is these things change with time. China will soften up, or it will simply smother it's own potential in the same way the former Soviet Union choked Russian advances in the 20th century. Either way, the rest of the world won't have to worry about new malevolent overlords.

和平


I don't think its wise to assume that a country with a fundamentally different political system will follow the same path in "softening up", or especially do it in a similar time frame.

Nimrod Nemesis
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2011.07.30 03:46:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Nimrod Nemesis on 30/07/2011 03:47:37
Originally by: Selinate
I don't think its wise to assume that a country with a fundamentally different political system will follow the same path in "softening up", or especially do it in a similar time frame.


As I said, if they don't soften their stance on many of these issues their economic and political growth are doomed and they'll swiftly become another flop in Chinese history (ever wonder why they call themselves "Han"? Their social and political history is a wonderful subject for study.) atop the already dog-tired list of autocratic regimes the mainland has suffered over the centuries. You can't run a first-world country in tandem with an authoritarian state for very long without going flat broke or killing off your primary resource: educated members of society.

Selinate
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.30 03:59:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Nimrod Nemesis
Edited by: Nimrod Nemesis on 30/07/2011 03:47:37
Originally by: Selinate
I don't think its wise to assume that a country with a fundamentally different political system will follow the same path in "softening up", or especially do it in a similar time frame.


As I said, if they don't soften their stance on many of these issues their economic and political growth are doomed and they'll swiftly become another flop in Chinese history (ever wonder why they call themselves "Han"? Their social and political history is a wonderful subject for study.) atop the already dog-tired list of autocratic regimes the mainland has suffered over the centuries. You can't run a first-world country in tandem with an authoritarian state for very long without going flat broke or killing off your primary resource: educated members of society.


And if they don't soften their stance, as you have said, they will "swiftly become another flop". But how long before that happens?

How long would they have enough power with which to continue supporting such regimes and foreign policies of bullying and possibly even taking over their neighbors? They seem to certainly have a thing for claiming certain countries and territories are rightfully theirs to acquire and take over permanently even amid protest from the people in those countries or around those territories. I'm not saying that the U.S. has *NEVER* done this, but it certainly has been a long long time since we have, and we certainly don't make a habit out of it.

No, I'd rather the U.S. stay on top until they "flop" if they do head down that path.

Jada Maroo
Posted - 2011.07.30 04:22:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Jada Maroo on 30/07/2011 04:37:49
Originally by: stoicfaux

Spoken like a naive youngster. This isn't a Hollywood movie where the hero pulls out a super spectacularly dramatic solution from his arse in the final minutes before doomsday and causes the bad guy's lair/death-ray/evil-army to spontaneously explode thus saving the day and letting everyone live happily ever after.



And yet, that's exactly what you expect will happen 10-20 years from now when the problem is exponentially worse. If you believe that back-loaded cuts are ever going to happen, you're just as naive about the leftists as Ronald Reagan was when he agreed to a dollar in tax increases for every 3 dollars in cuts. And, of course, the Democrats never passed the cuts.

The only solace I get in this debate is that the people who are against massive soclialistic bureacracies will, in the end, be the victors. Whether we cut now and take our medicine or whether we allow big government parasites in both parties to crater our nation in debt, the end result will be necessarily smaller government because we simply can't afford anything else. The only question is whether we end up like Greece, Argentina, or Zimbabwe. Although if we're lucky we manage to elect the next Ronald Reagan, one who won't make deals with Democrats, and we end up with a true conservative revolution as was seen in Peurto Rico.

Personally, I'm not a fan of putting off the inevitable when it only grows worse with time. The United States has more than enough monthly income to service our debts, send out SS checks, pay the military, a some vital services. I'm perfectly fine letting the closet Marxist in chief sweat it out for a while until he accepts fiscal sanity.

Jada Maroo
Posted - 2011.07.30 04:34:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Jada Maroo on 30/07/2011 04:42:56
Originally by: Ademaro Imre
That will be the reason for a well deserved downgrade.


Good post, and I agree with it all. But I just want to emphasize your last line.

We deserve it. Not only do we deserve a downgrade, the sooner it happens, the better. Yes it's going to hurt our economy and interest rates will go up, but it will also make borrowing by the government that much more complicated.

With any luck it will only need to happen once before we see Congress forced to adopt something like the Rand Paul / Connie Mack real spending reduction bill. It's the only plan that freezes government spending levels and begins to actually reduce them instead of reducing the growth in spending like the phoney Boehner/Ried cuts do. And in 8 years, the budget is balanced. I'm not sure they've released the text of the bill yet, but so long as debt increases are small and force the president to go through the hassle of fighting for every dollar he wants to spend, it would be a good thing overall.


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