open All Channels
seplocked Assembly Hall
blankseplocked [Proposal] - a rebalancing of T1 Cruisers and Battlecruisers.
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 [2]

Author Topic

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2011.07.31 18:33:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 31/07/2011 18:38:32
Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 31/07/2011 18:33:51
Quote:
Maybe we should get our ships back too when we die, and NO PODDING IN LOW-SEC. All you are doing is saying we should water down this game so an aspect that you frequent will go better for you this will not benefit the game as a whole just what you do


I want more variety in the game, rather than an entire size class being relegated to newbie trash for no good reason.

You want the one with the biggest shiniest thing to win all the time. Sounds much more like the WoW player attitude to me Very Happy
But hey, it seems you've either not read or not understood the OP because you've made no points at all to refute or counter a single thing I've said. All you do is rage and spew insults, no coherent argument whatsoever.

Edit: that last quote is a prime example actually. Worthless strawman arguments not based on any evidence or fact.

Decaped
Posted - 2011.07.31 18:45:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Decaped on 31/07/2011 18:51:29
Edited by: Decaped on 31/07/2011 18:45:53
Edited by: Decaped on 31/07/2011 18:45:01
The ideal end result:
- Cruisers are lighter, faster, and more economically viable compared to battlecruisers and also have a greater number of viable classes.
- Battlecruisers are slightly toned down but maintain their role as anti-cruiser, and generally higher DPS/tank platforms for gangs where speed is less of an issue.

Thoughts?


are basically your points

1st: There are t2/navy/t3/etc.. cruisers that serve this purpose.
2nd: would change the mechanics of many aspects of the game to serve this little niche you are crying about

= fail sorry -1


edit:: Look at the big picture ex Think of how badass a Drake Speed tank would be!!! thats right it would be too badass

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2011.07.31 18:55:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 31/07/2011 18:57:00
Quote:
1st: There are t2/navy/t3/etc.. cruisers that serve this purpose.


And would continue to do it, better than the T1s. Your point?

Quote:
2nd: would change the mechanics of many aspects of the game to serve this little niche you are crying about


Umm, no, it really wouldn't. It would make cruisers a viable alternative while refining the BCs niché down a bit from "all-purpose pwnmobile".

Having a large number of ships in-game that have no real purpose is not good design. Simple as. Why is a greater number of viable choices a bad thing?
The rocket buff a while ago made several previously broken ships workable, thus adding more choice. Same principle here.

There are no core mechanics changes in this proposal, just buffing a number of broken ships and more clearly defining cruiser role.

Decaped
Posted - 2011.07.31 18:57:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Decaped on 31/07/2011 19:01:07
Edited by: Decaped on 31/07/2011 18:59:52
Originally by: Decaped


Look at the big picture ex Think of how badass a Drake Speed tank would be!!! thats right it would be too badass


Think about this for just a min before you reply. I would be able to dps fit my drake to solo lvl 4's. That is not a correct game mechanic

as for your t1 comment. Well thats the benefit of flying ships better then t1's. I assume you are a poor pirate and are looking to exploit because your op makes no sense when you really think about it

Large Collidable Object
morons.
Posted - 2011.07.31 19:09:00 - [35]
 

The main problem lies within T1 cruisers and BCs filling the same role, but for a marginal price difference and a few days of training, BCs are practically better at everything.

My proposal would be to give BCs a fitting bonus on BS class weapons (not just an increase in grid and CPU, 'cause that would be abused), so they can fit the small tier BS turrets which don't get used by BS anyway.

Get rid of some highslots, so the overall dps would stay the same.

Effects: They would still be a highly mobile, decently tanked DPS platform for low cost compared to a BS (reminder: solely losing the rigs on a BS costs more than the entire BC loss), but cruisers could get under their guns thanks to BS class weapons crappy tracking & sigresolution.

That way, both had their niche.

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2011.07.31 19:15:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 31/07/2011 19:22:03
Quote:
Look at the big picture ex Think of how badass a Drake Speed tank would be!!! thats right it would be too badass


Please point out where exactly I suggested enabling Drakes to speed tank? Because if I did that was one hell of a typo.

Quote:
I assume you are a poor pirate and are looking to exploit because your op makes no sense when you really think about it


Oh look, more strawman arguments.

Originally by: Large Collidable Object
Interesting ideas


I had the idea a while ago of putting a tracking penalty on BCs. Similar effect overall.

Decaped
Posted - 2011.07.31 19:20:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Large Collidable Object
The main problem lies within T1 cruisers and BCs filling the same role, but for a marginal price difference and a few days of training, BCs are practically better at everything.

My proposal would be to give BCs a fitting bonus on BS class weapons (not just an increase in grid and CPU, 'cause that would be abused), so they can fit the small tier BS turrets which don't get used by BS anyway.

Get rid of some highslots, so the overall dps would stay the same.

Effects: They would still be a highly mobile, decently tanked DPS platform for low cost compared to a BS (reminder: solely losing the rigs on a BS costs more than the entire BC loss), but cruisers could get under their guns thanks to BS class weapons crappy tracking & sigresolution.

That way, both had their niche.



This makes sense

Decaped
Posted - 2011.07.31 19:27:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 31/07/2011 19:22:03
Quote:
Look at the big picture ex Think of how badass a Drake Speed tank would be!!! thats right it would be too badass


Please point out where exactly I suggested enabling Drakes to speed tank? Because if I did that was one hell of a typo.

Quote:
I assume you are a poor pirate and are looking to exploit because your op makes no sense when you really think about it


Oh look, more strawman arguments.

Originally by: Large Collidable Object
Interesting ideas


I had the idea a while ago of putting a tracking penalty on BCs. Similar effect overall.


so all i see you doing here is twisting around what people are saying for your benefit. gg forum troll gg

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2011.07.31 19:33:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 31/07/2011 19:22:03
Quote:
Look at the big picture ex Think of how badass a Drake Speed tank would be!!! thats right it would be too badass


Please point out where exactly I suggested enabling Drakes to speed tank? Because if I did that was one hell of a typo.

Decaped
Posted - 2011.07.31 19:36:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 31/07/2011 19:22:03
Quote:
Look at the big picture ex Think of how badass a Drake Speed tank would be!!! thats right it would be too badass


Please point out where exactly I suggested enabling Drakes to speed tank? Because if I did that was one hell of a typo.


prestidigitation

Reaver Glitterstim
Legio Geminatus
Posted - 2011.08.01 05:19:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Originally by: Reaver Glitterstim
More Stabber stuff


That fit you suggested needs AWU V, and a 2% grid implant, and still has half the EHP and DPS of another cruiser, also it costs significantly more than a T2 frigate, which would outperform it in every way. Sorry but you're making a really terrible case for this ship. All the fits I have are mediocre at best and the ones you're suggesting are just a mess. Stabber needs a buff.


Actually it only needs AWU 3. And that's just one potential fit. You don't really have to fit an afterburner AND a MWD, I only put them both on to demonstrate that it has enough powergrid for that despite the weapons. Also, it most certainly would not cost more than a tech 2 frigate. In fact that very fit I had on costs less than 20 mil. Most of the money goes to the armor rigs because armor rigs are freaking expensive, and it wouldn't be much different on a frigate using armor rigs.

Here's a fit I would use:
Highs:
Dual 180mm AC x4
Assault Launcher x2
Mids:
Y-T8 MWD or Y-S8 AB
Warp Scrambler
Webifier
Lows:
Tracking Enhancer
Nanofiber Hull
Damage Control or Gyrostabilizer
Rigs:
Shield EM x2
Shield Thermal

This setup costs about 2-5 mil over the hull depending on module meta level/tech 2 and leaves me with 301 powergrid remaining with the MWD, 401 with the AB. It still has almost as much Eff. HP (remember this isn't a tank fit, it's a nano fit) so it's still tougher than a destroyer despite being just as fast and shooting just as hard, and having little difficulty hitting frigates, even ones that aren't webbed. It also makes a pretty decent tackler. If it could warp at 6 AU/s, I'd seriously consider taking it along on frigate roams.

But lastly I say to you stop knocking the stabber. No matter how many charts and statistics you manage to pull off EFT, it won't change the fact that I've kicked people's ass in a stabber. They don't need a buff. And if all cruisers get their needed buff, stabbers WILL need a nerf.

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2011.08.01 11:00:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 01/08/2011 15:07:14
Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 01/08/2011 11:05:57
Quote:
Actually it only needs AWU 3


No, it's 5. I EFT'd it and checked. Then again that's with a tech 2 fit, drop it to metas and your stats are even more terrible.

Quote:
Also, it most certainly would not cost more than a tech 2 frigate.


Yeah, it does. Hull + rigs on their own cost more than the t2 frig. (Unless you're talking something like a Wolf)

Quote:
and it wouldn't be much different on a frigate using armor rigs.


Yep it is, but how many do that anyway? None of my AFs have armour rigs and all of them would utterly melt that Stabber.

Quote:
Here's a fit I would use:


Awful. Even with full t2 the DPS is fail for a cruiser, and with 9k EHP even my frigates would thrash it.

Quote:
remember this isn't a tank fit, it's a nano fit


You seem to fail to understand two basic things about nanoships.
1. Their speed is to stay out of scram range.
2. All of them carry some form of buffer, because having EHP as low as that is nothing short of suicidal. Any cruiser and some of the frigates I have would have it as drifting wreckage in seconds.

Quote:
But lastly I say to you stop knocking the stabber. No matter how many charts and statistics you manage to pull off EFT...


Nope, because it really is trash. There's only so much you can say "oh but it works better in practice" when the cold hard evidence in front of me says you're outgunned by basically everything.

Quote:
it won't change the fact that I've kicked people's ass in a stabber.


By all means link the killmails. I take it you have an alt? Because the only kills I see for your character are people who got absolutely blobbed and going by your losses you don't even fly the Stabber on that character.

Edit: in fact, going by your losses, you don't appear to understand how to PVP fit anything. Warp stabbed Drakes and Rifters? Zero tank torp Ravens? Shield rigged armour Scorpions?
I could go on, but... actually I think I will: Brutixes with missing guns, armour and shield tanked Merlins, shield punishers with empty low slots, have you ever flown a ship that wasn't failfitted?

Reaver Glitterstim
Legio Geminatus
Posted - 2011.08.01 17:35:00 - [43]
 

Edited by: Reaver Glitterstim on 01/08/2011 17:51:19
Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington
Quote:
Actually it only needs AWU 3


No, it's 5. I EFT'd it and checked. Then again that's with a tech 2 fit, drop it to metas and your stats are even more terrible.


P.S. make sure you read the last thing I wrote, you always seem to miss that bit.

Well who do you think flies a stabber anyway? Of course I'd be better off with all tech 2 stuff on a tech 2 ship. My whole point was that a stabber is actually good for a newbie who doesn't have the skills to fit a lot of tech 2 stuff. I personally can't fit tech 2 weapons yet but I can fly tech 2 frigates. However, I don't much like the idea of wasting 30-40 million isk on a failfit frigate so I'm not jumping into pvp with something I have no experience with. Therefore in pvp fleets I fly tech 1 ships mostly, like stabbers.

Also, you're the one who started this argument. I simply threw it out there that while most cruisers are terrible, stabbers aren't, and you decided to take it upon yourself to try and prove me wrong. I've heard people say they can make a thorax kick ass, which boggles my mind since it runs out of powergrid when you put tech 1 neutron blasters on it. The same is absolutely not true of the stabber, it has about the same powergrid as a thorax with its expected weapons taking MUCH less. And its faster than a thorax. And it fits 6 weapons, not 5. And its only slightly weaker but has a much smaller sig radius. Given all that, and that several players find a way to kick ass with a thorax, how can you knock a stabber? You don't have to agree that it's something you would fly, I just want you to acknowledge that someone else maybe likes it a lot.

And finally the stabber can fit top end tech 2 weapons without AWU, if you don't put on a MWD and AB together. What part of that do you not get?

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2011.08.01 18:23:00 - [44]
 

Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 01/08/2011 18:39:51
Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 01/08/2011 18:27:23
Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 01/08/2011 18:25:15
Quote:
Well who do you think flies a stabber anyway?


People who somehow missed the memo about the Rupture being a vastly superior ship.

Quote:
My whole point was that a stabber is actually good for a newbie who doesn't have the skills to fit a lot of tech 2 stuff.


And terrible for everyone who can fly a cruiser that's actually good. Line the thing up vs any sensibly fit cruiser, and you see which is the odd one out. This is why it'd need a buff along with the other gimpy ones.

Quote:
I simply threw it out there that while most cruisers are terrible, stabbers aren't


^ See above point.

Quote:
I've heard people say they can make a thorax kick ass, which boggles my mind since it runs out of powergrid when you put tech 1 neutron blasters on it.


While the power grid on the Thorax is a bit tighter than it should be, you're doing something badly wrong if you can't get a tank and medium blasters on it.
(As a hint: you can actually do it without needing AWU at all)

Quote:
The same is absolutely not true of the stabber, it has about the same powergrid as a thorax with its expected weapons taking MUCH less.


So what? You can put 425mm auto IIs on a Stabber and it still gets outgunned by basically everything. The fact you can fit the guns is irrelevant as the ship makes terrible use of them.

Quote:
And its faster than a thorax. And it fits 6 weapons, not 5.


And yet the Thorax outdamages you twice over. As would the Rupture, for that matter. Seriously, do you actually know what sort of capabilities other cruisers have, and how far above the Stabber they are?
I'll even give you a few example statlines:
Thorax: up to 600 DPS, 25k EHP
Shield Rupture: 450 DPS, 19.5k EHP
Armour Rupture: 429 DPS, 30.6k EHP
Standard nano-stabber: 215 DPS, 17.6k EHP.

I could continue, but are you starting to notice the trend?
Stabber is the fastest but what're you going to do with that besides suicide tackle?

Oh and another thing - you do realise you can't fit 6 cruiser weapons and a tank if the guns are 425mms?

Quote:
I just want you to acknowledge that someone else maybe likes it a lot.


Sure, plenty of people like the Stabber. It's up to them if they want to be easy kills. I on the other hand want a greater variety of ships that are actually worth using.

Quote:

And finally the stabber can fit top end tech 2 weapons without AWU, if you don't put on a MWD and AB together. What part of that do you not get?


I refer you to my earlier point on how this does not make it a remotely good ship, let alone an overpowered one.

As part of my "buff the underdogs" section, the Stabber should really get an extra low. To compensate for cruisers being faster across the board, the speed bonus is replaced with falloff. There, instant mini-Vagabond.
Somewhat back on topic, is the problem that the Hurricane obsoletes both the minnie combat cruisers.

Oh and I'd still like to see some evidence you've "kicked ass" in a Stabber.

I also have to ask - why are you bringing the Thorax or the Stabber into a debate, when you clearly don't know anything about the capabilities of either ship?

Reaver Glitterstim
Legio Geminatus
Posted - 2011.08.01 22:48:00 - [45]
 

Good heavens you seem to have nothing better to do than talk without listening. Every time I come back you have loads of banter about stuff that I can't even keep up with. Yet a mere glance at any of it and I see you just keep on missing what I'm saying.

Plus, I'm offended by what you said about my kills. I don't have much pvp experience yet, but I don't failfit. Rather, every fit you mentioned had a specific purpose and most times that purpose wasn't standard pvp. Yes all my kills are in blobs. If you check my SP allocation you'll see that my pvp-effective skills are so minimal that I can't really do much against most pilots. Sure I can kick newbs and carebears asses, but that doesn't help me against 3-year nullsec pilots.

The warp-stabbed drake was an escape fit to get my drake out of some space we lost. I was new to nullsec and the alliance I was in then was ****. I got lucky and almost made it out, but I think I was being tracked several systems before I got hit. Obviously warp stabs or no would not have made a difference with that many folks gunning me down.

Warp stabbed rifters I use to get through nullsec on my own. It's nice when I can't fly a covert ops. I can now but I only got one a few days ago. Rifter-shuttles have gotten me through nullsec gatecamps more often than they failed, and they're cheap as hell.

The torp raven was obviously a suicide gank ship, I'm surprised even you couldn't see that. It didn't work because CONCORD jammed me, which I find odd because I've looked at several suicide gank videos and never seen anyone get jammed by CONCORD. But that's beside the point.

The scorpion's got armor plates because it has jammers. It has shield rigs because we use shield logi. It's a fleet fit. I lemminged, that's why I lost it. My bad.

The brutix was obviously a ratting fit. Just because the market is out of guns doesn't mean I can't take it out and kill stuff with it. I lost it because I got shotgunned by 9 people in a system with a lot more belts, so they got lucky. I also was fairly new and had never heard of the shotgun tactic. But that's irrelevant. What's relevant is that it was a ratting fit and furthermore that it was working. Thus, not a fail fit.

I don't think I have ever flown a merlin that was both shield tanked and armor tanked. I challenge you to find that on my killboard. But I can save you some time--I checked; it's not there.

I'm sure I've flown failfit ships, especially back when I was new. But you instead like to pick out non-combat fits I lost, or the scorpion which was fleet fit (approximately) and most certainly not a fail fit. It is clear to me that you're butthurt I won't give in on the original point I disagreed with you on: that stabbers don't suck. It was your idea to make this whole thing on it. Why can't you just accept that either you wrre wrong once or maybe people have a difference of opinion? You're being a baby about it. Yes I'm being a baby about it too. And I admit I make plenty of mistakes. One of my downfalls is that I get ****ed off when people get all ****y about little things and try to take it out on other things when they can't get their way.

So maybe you should give up on this crusade and stop making yourself look ******ed. Maybe you are succeeding in revealing to everyone that I'm no shining hero myself. Wonderful, I never said I was, and I don't even like to be that. But I never decided to pick you apart until you did it to me first.

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2011.08.01 23:52:00 - [46]
 

Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 01/08/2011 23:53:32
Quote:
I don't have much pvp experience yet,

You claimed to have "kicked ass". I ran a little check to find evidence of this - I found none.

Quote:
If you check my SP allocation you'll see that my pvp-effective skills are so minimal that I can't really do much against most pilots.

I never would've started on your kill record if you hadn't claimed to have experience with the ship you argued for. Not only that, but you tried to bring ships into the discussion that you clearly didn't know anything about. That's simple ignorance, which is perfectly reasonable, but if you don't know what you're talking about don't bring it into a debate. You will get called out on it.

By the way, please re-read the first sentence of that paragraph a few times. ^

Quote:
Assorted warp stab fits

The warp stabs were nowhere near the only thing wrong with the Drakes. The Rifters less so.

Quote:
Scorpion

Why even have an armour battleship if you run shield logi fleets? Also CDFE aren't what you use for logistics synergy.

Quote:
Brutix

Lack of a gun was also not near the only thing wrong with that. I could go into more detail on all the messups, but that'd make a long post even bigger.

Quote:
Merlin

Actually, my bad on that. Salvage rigs have the same icon as trimarks, and I didn't mouseover them.
Still wierd as hell all over for PVP though, I assume a hurried retrofit, and the fact remains those rigs are actively detrimental to ship performance.

Quote:
Raven

Of course CONCORD jam. You won't have seen it on successful suicide gank videos because the target is dead when they finally do so.

Quote:
I won't give in on the original point I disagreed with you on: that stabbers don't suck.

I have presented ample evidence that they do in fact suck. Please re-read and address it, I can provide more if necessary. You've actually provided no evidence on your side beyond "it can fit 425mm guns" and "some people like it" (oh and "it's good for newbies that don't have something better"). If you have any points beyond this, please do re-state them.

What I'd most like to see you try and refute is this little comparison:
Thorax: up to 600 DPS, 25k EHP
Shield Rupture: 450 DPS, 19.5k EHP
Armour Rupture: 429 DPS, 30.6k EHP
Standard nano-stabber: 215 DPS, 17.6k EHP.

If I'm wrong, show me it. I've provided evidence (which has gone completely ignored) - where's yours?

Quote:
when people get all ****y about little things and try to take it out on other things when they can't get their way.

I'll repeat, because this is important: if you enter a debate, and claim to have knowledge you actually don't - expect to be called out on it. If you hadn't said this:
Quote:
it won't change the fact that I've kicked people's ass in a stabber.

... I never would have had to contradict you on it. You also brought up the Thorax when you didn't even know how to fit it, or even the basics of what makes a ship good/bad.

Reaver Glitterstim
Legio Geminatus
Posted - 2011.08.02 00:16:00 - [47]
 

1. duels that don't involve ship destruction don't go on killboards.
2. armor plates add HP
3. stabbers are smaller and faster than ruptures and thoraxes. I don't see you comparing stabber dps to thrashers or coercers.
4. I'm done here. Don't even bother posting an ignorant retort because I'm not coming back.

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2011.08.02 01:09:00 - [48]
 

Good, because your responses contributed nothing except underlining how utterly clueless you are. Have fun losing more lolfits!

Shame on me for allowing the topic to get derailed so badly though. May need to repost this.

Cyn0 A17
Posted - 2011.08.02 02:23:00 - [49]
 

Something I noticed BC slaughter cruisers (Dessies probly should do the same to frigs but dont for some reason), but bc get murdered in a slug fight with a bs, and a bs cant track a cruiser (arbi td bonus pwns btw).

I say the cane and drake may need a slight nerf but t1 cruisers are in need of a buff. Also why fly a t1 cruiser when you can fly a t2 cruiser these days cost is not much of an issue.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.02 15:12:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Duchess Starbuckington


... Did you even read any of the OP?
The whole purpose of the mobility buffs and nerfs is to split the two ship sizes by speed, making the Battlecruisers as slow as their size should be and the cruisers considerably more agile, and much better fitting in a gang that requires it.


A HOLE that is perfectly filled today with battlecruisers.
Can you actually think of a hole (a role in a fleet which isn't filled with ANY ship today?) Because if you can't, then your OP basically boils down to "I want to see more T1 cruisers in fleets because they are pretty"

Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.08.02 17:33:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Can you actually think of a hole (a role in a fleet which isn't filled with ANY ship today?)


The thing is that you refuse to understand small but important points:

Who needs domis or ravens in large fleets?
What alliance/fc calls hyperions instead of pest/maels/abbadons
Who is dumb enough to fly other thing at cruiser size than ruppy?

Yes you can use tons or nice words and beautiful phrases to tell everyone and his cat that a T1 frig is useful in fleets...are they used in? -noes !!

And so on, the balance is not easy but to start you must admit this important little thing you refuse to: every thing that isn't a nyx, aeon, thany, (insert name amarr carrier), Heavy interdictors (not all), some logistics, some reccons, pirate frigs, canes and drakes, you stay docked or you're just advised to pick something else. (lol arty mega/abby)

Balance means more diversity and what diversity do you see? -would be nice if you'd show some because I don't. I've got tired of getting spanked with my brutix/myrmidon, just trained for the cane and since then I'm having fun, true fact.

Why? because those work fine for the role someone can/want/expect from them, everything else is trash for clueless/noobs until you open your eyes, try by yourself and see the huge difference between those ships and all the rest you can see in the market.
If there are 100 ships in the game then 20 are just enough since every thing else than those 20 is less efficient, difficult to fit properly, very hard skilling for less efficiency and being more fragile, nobody wants them in their fleets they're noobs choice or hangar queens.
You can buy them, hit stuff and kill stuff but that's all, what example do you need to understand that has simple has it is: not used in current game pvp mechanics = useless, waste of pixels coding resources whatsoever

So, you're ok to let them be just like they are?
-seriously, I'm starting to think we don't play the same game or if you ever un dock (with no disrespect)
Try to offer solutions instead of utopia's?

E man Industries
Posted - 2011.08.02 18:03:00 - [52]
 

I disagree they need changing.

T1 ships have it where it counts...Cost

I can fly expendable t1 cruisers all day and lose them and not worry. Also new players can use them and be really effective. The reason they are nto flown more is because most players with the skill points to fly t2 can afford to fly t2 ships.

In a fight I can fly a 150mil Hac, or a 100mill BC, or a 20mill t1.
If I can afford to lose a50mil I will fly the mroe expensive ship. It does nto mean that the t1 is not an astounding bargin for what it does...mearly that i can afford to through isk away. I still fly t1 in gangs where we expect to lose or are attempting to harass another fleet by denieng good kills.

You want to beet a fleet of expensive t3 ships...get a bunch of t1 cruisers and kill em. even if you kill one and you all die....you still win.

T1 cruiserss are also great for suppport and quick refits. I die and need to reship fast I buy an t1 cruiser and get back into the fight fast. If i die again who cares.

Also some t1's hit amazingly hard. take the e-war cruisers. For 20mil sik I can take millsions of isk worth of ships out of a given fight. I can jam them, disrupt them or boost my own fleets damage.

T1 ships are great!

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2011.08.02 18:06:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 02/08/2011 18:08:08
Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 02/08/2011 18:07:51
Quote:
Also why fly a t1 cruiser when you can fly a t2 cruiser these days cost is not much of an issue.


Significant skill gap, very large cost gap, and actually worse in a lot of situations than a battlecruiser is. Chosing between HAC and Battlecruiser is actually a very good model for how the system should be - both are good in different circumstances.

By the way, several people seem to be under the mistaken impression that the whole aim of this proposal is to crowbar cruisers into existing fleet compositions - it's not. It's meant to be a buff to cruiser sized gangs and to make BC vs Cruiser something that actually has to be weighed up, rather than "lol BC every time."

Quote:
I can fly expendable t1 cruisers all day and lose them and not worry. Also new players can use them and be really effective. The reason they are nto flown more is because most players with the skill points to fly t2 can afford to fly t2 ships.


... Which is exactly the problem. Did you read the OP at all? Cruisers being relegated to newbie trash is not a good situation and certainly not good design.

Quote:
T1 ships are great!


Oh hi, I'm a battlecruiser, I do everything your ****ty little non-Blackbird cruiser does and better, for similar price.
BTW if you're paying 100mil for your BCs, you're doing something hilariously wrong.

E man Industries
Posted - 2011.08.02 18:13:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Swynet
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Can you actually think of a hole (a role in a fleet which isn't filled with ANY ship today?)


The thing is that you refuse to understand small but important points:

Who needs domis or ravens in large fleets?
What alliance/fc calls hyperions instead of pest/maels/abbadons
Who is dumb enough to fly other thing at cruiser size than ruppy?

Yes you can use tons or nice words and beautiful phrases to tell everyone and his cat that a T1 frig is useful in fleets...are they used in? -noes !!

And so on, the balance is not easy but to start you must admit this important little thing you refuse to: every thing that isn't a nyx, aeon, thany, (insert name amarr carrier), Heavy interdictors (not all), some logistics, some reccons, pirate frigs, canes and drakes, you stay docked or you're just advised to pick something else. (lol arty mega/abby)

Balance means more diversity and what diversity do you see? -would be nice if you'd show some because I don't. I've got tired of getting spanked with my brutix/myrmidon, just trained for the cane and since then I'm having fun, true fact.

Why? because those work fine for the role someone can/want/expect from them, everything else is trash for clueless/noobs until you open your eyes, try by yourself and see the huge difference between those ships and all the rest you can see in the market.
If there are 100 ships in the game then 20 are just enough since every thing else than those 20 is less efficient, difficult to fit properly, very hard skilling for less efficiency and being more fragile, nobody wants them in their fleets they're noobs choice or hangar queens.
You can buy them, hit stuff and kill stuff but that's all, what example do you need to understand that has simple has it is: not used in current game pvp mechanics = useless, waste of pixels coding resources whatsoever

So, you're ok to let them be just like they are?
-seriously, I'm starting to think we don't play the same game or if you ever un dock (with no disrespect)
Try to offer solutions instead of utopia's?


No large fleet call for t1 cruisers..
The reason is not because t1 cruisers suck. It is because per pilot they do less than other ships types. 30hac’s vs 30cruisers the hac’s win(assuming no e-war and similar ship fittings)
Fleet types are ment to win fights so you bring your best ship that you can afford. Most players that can fly T2 can afford t2.
SO cruisers are not seen as a main fleet ship.

That said T1 cruisers are great and fill a very important role in EvE…they are cheap. Dirt cheap, most corps provide free cruisers. If I can’t afford t2..I can fly t1. Say I have been grinding sov warfare for a week and have not isked up. A fleet call goes out and I can’t afford a brand new zealot…but I could fly say an arbitrator and still help out.

T1 can also be used in isk wars. If a gang is piloting expensive ships and we go fight them with T1’s…we may lose more ships or even the fight but if we kill even one we win the isk war.

T1 ships are also readily available most station. So if I get blowed up, I grab a T1 cruiser and get back into the fight, if a die again I can afford it but I still help out.

Also t1 ships damage per isk spent is amazing, as are the effects caused by e-war cruisers.
T1 cruisers are cheap…that is there purpose.

E man Industries
Posted - 2011.08.02 18:26:00 - [55]
 

Quote:
Significant skill gap, very large cost gap, and actually worse in a lot of situations than a battlecruiser is. Chosing between HAC and Battlecruiser is actually a very good model for how the system should be - both are good in different circumstances.

By the way, several people seem to be under the mistaken impression that the whole aim of this proposal is to crowbar cruisers into existing fleet compositions - it's not. It's meant to be a buff to cruiser sized gangs and to make BC vs Cruiser something that actually has to be weighed up, rather than "lol BC every time."


Skill gap goes away over time, most 0.0 pilots can fly both. there is an equal choice between cruisers and battle cruisers. If I want a cheap gang I fly t1's.

For example an allaince is harasing use with hac or t3 gangs. We know they are looking for good fights and epic kills. SO we fly t1 ships and kill them. We kill a few and they kill more but we still win on the isk war. Do you think they will hang around and keep getting losses? yay we win..all thanks to the t1 cruisers.

Would I use them to contest sov or in a fight we really need to win? no...that is not there job..that fight is worth investing isk in. Diffrent ships diffrent roles.


Quote:
... Which is exactly the problem. Did you read the OP at all? Cruisers being relegated to newbie trash is not a good situation and certainly not good design.

They are NOT newbie trash. Cheap is a good thing. This has ntohign to do with skill points. A fully skilled player can still fly a t1 cruiser and a t1 cruiser can still be the best tool for that job. Why is the T1 cruiser the best tool? because it's cheap yet crazy effective at that cost. How many crusers to take on a hac? 1.5-3? at most..and i can field almost 10 of them for the same cost...?
Or in a fleet fight they kill 5 t1 cruisers for every hac we kill...who wins...


Quote:
Oh hi, I'm a battlecruiser, I do everything your ****ty little non-Blackbird cruiser does and better, for similar price.
BTW if you're paying 100mil for your BCs, you're doing something hilariously wrong
.

Sorry your right, 70mil for an unfitted tier 3 battle cruiser. How silly of me...that makes all the diffrence...

No..wait I can still field multiple t1's for that price.


T1 are not "newbie trash" they are very good ships and dominate on a value basis. the cost compared to what you get with them is astounding.

Aragnaw
Posted - 2011.08.02 23:37:00 - [56]
 

i agree that t1 cruisers need a buff but some still perform the role they were meant for i have flown mallers which have played bait for ppl to get ganked by in more expensive ships coz i have a stupid tank i have sat 60-100k off a gate in a caracal during a camp my blackbird fit has jammed things down almost as well as a falcon some are broken some are not

i also agree if u only get a 10k differance in ehp between a caracal and drake ur doing something wrong

t1 cruiser if fit for a role will do that role and thats it now i would like to see maybe better agility or velocity but not much

as for a bc nerf only a few really need nerfing the drake for instance i often wondered if changing the required cruiser skill from 3 to 4 and maybe involving it in the bcs bonuses might help to balance it

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2011.08.03 13:24:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 03/08/2011 13:31:34
Edited by: Duchess Starbuckington on 03/08/2011 13:29:53

Quote:
No large fleet call for t1 cruisers..


To Repeat: By the way, several people seem to be under the mistaken impression that the whole aim of this proposal is to crowbar cruisers into existing fleet compositions - it's not. It's meant to be a buff to cruiser sized gangs and to make BC vs Cruiser something that actually has to be weighed up, rather than "lol BC every time."

Quote:
A fleet call goes out and I can’t afford a brand new zealot…but I could fly say an arbitrator and still help out.


If that's not the definition of "newbie trash", what is? It's stuff you fly when you have nothing better, IE a Battlecruiser.

Quote:
T1 can also be used in isk wars. If a gang is piloting expensive ships and we go fight them with T1’s…we may lose more ships or even the fight but if we kill even one we win the isk war.


So can BCs. I don't think you really understand how small the price gap is when you factor a little thing called insurance in. Again, did you even read the OP?

Quote:
A fully skilled player can still fly a t1 cruiser and a t1 cruiser can still be the best tool for that job.


How? If you're fully skilled and can fly a Drake, why would you take the **** by showing up in a Caracal?

Quote:
70mil


You are still way, way off.

Quote:
the cost compared to what you get with them is astounding.


Oh look, yet more bleating about cost. Ok it seems I have to spell this out:
On basically any t1 cruiser that isn't a Blackbird or Arbitrator, I could transfer those mods to a tier 1 or 2 battlecruiser and get better results for a miniscule increase in price (seriously, look up that insurance thing sometime.)

Factoring this magical thing called insurance, the price gap between t1 cruisers and battlecruisers drops to nil. As a few examples:
Thorax to Brutix - two more guns and another mid, but I get what, 18mil back rather than 5?

Rupture to Cyclone - another 2 mids, 1 less low, another gun and some utility slots. Price difference once again tiny.

Both examples would buff your combat stats up considerably, and at very good value for money. It's only really the Amarr that lack a cost effective example of this, plus neither of their BCs can be considered an equivilent to the Arbitrator.

If you can't afford that kind of increase, you really must be new to the game - meaning once again t1 cruisers are relegated to newbies, and are inferior to other choices.

Hence the term: newbie trash.
Edit: in fact I'd like to mention, for this "ISK warfare" thing you're so fond of, my corp has basically switched over to tier 1 BCs for that purpose. They're just so much better on value than a t1 cruiser.

_______________________________________________________________

Quote:
often wondered if changing the required cruiser skill from 3 to 4


Won't do a thing. To anyone playing Eve long enough to have proper cruiser/BC skills, a few days is nothing.

Quote:
but some still perform the role they were meant for


The Blackbird and Arbitrator do. The rest are just roles the playerbase has crowbarred them into because they have nothing better to do. Also Mallers ironically aren't good bait because it takes an idiot to attack one, rather defeating the purpose.

Miskoranda
Sudden Buggery
Posted - 2011.08.03 15:40:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Swynet


The thing is that you refuse to understand small but important points:

Who needs domis or ravens in large fleets?
What alliance/fc calls hyperions instead of pest/maels/abbadons
Who is dumb enough to fly other thing at cruiser size than ruppy?

Yes you can use tons or nice words and beautiful phrases to tell everyone and his cat that a T1 frig is useful in fleets...are they used in? -noes !!

And so on, the balance is not easy but to start you must admit this important little thing you refuse to: every thing that isn't a nyx, aeon, thany, (insert name amarr carrier), Heavy interdictors (not all), some logistics, some reccons, pirate frigs, canes and drakes, you stay docked or you're just advised to pick something else. (lol arty mega/abby)

Balance means more diversity and what diversity do you see? -would be nice if you'd show some because I don't. I've got tired of getting spanked with my brutix/myrmidon, just trained for the cane and since then I'm having fun, true fact.



You just suck at Myrm/Brutix.

I fly the Cyclone. I spank people with it. People don't primary me because "Cylones suck". I've been wiped in a Ferox by a Caracal. Skill comes into it, big time.

T1 cruisers may need a buff, and I can see the OP's point, but its not to nerf BC's in any way. They are fine (aside from the Prophecy and Ferox). Drakes suck balls, being hopeless spacebricks, and Canes are winbuttons...but the same can go for any class of ships. Ruppys are winbuttons in the cruiser class, rifters in frig class. So what?

Duchess Starbuckington
Posted - 2011.08.03 15:55:00 - [59]
 

Quote:
They are fine (aside from the Prophecy and Ferox). Drakes suck balls, being hopeless spacebricks


... You do realise one of the biggest nerf campaigns has been directed at Drakes, for very good reason? Drakes are excellent bordering on overpowered.

Quote:
Ruppys are winbuttons in the cruiser class, rifters in frig class. So what?


Which is a bad state of affairs, but the point of the proposal is that Hurricanes are win buttons that also win at being cruisers.
Oh also, just so you know - the gap between Rifters and other combat frigs is seriously exaggerated, they just happen to be easier to use properly than the others.

Kin Netics
Posted - 2011.08.03 17:58:00 - [60]
 

I was going to interject my opinion then I realized the OP would only disagree with it, no matter what it was.


Pages: 1 [2]

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only