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Reeper 2435
Posted - 2011.08.08 18:31:00 - [61]
 

*throws a donut on the desk*
*watches to see if a fat minmatar kid rushes for it*

Nor Tzestu
Amarr
Boxwater Intelligence
Posted - 2011.08.08 21:13:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
Originally by: Nor Tzestu
Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
Originally by: Nor Tzestu
My average mission times for killing are 6 and a half minutes. Average salvage time is almost 9 minutes


What this tells me, is you need to ship up to the Coercer. Gank fit with beams. It will take you roughly 2 minutes of being in the mission space to complete, some less.

Boom - suddenly you're making more by blitzing.
What this tells me is your guessing at best. I am still recording everything till i have 100 missions done. Then on to level twos in a more appropriate guristas killing


Maxed gunnery skills in a punisher will run you for about 80dps with little range.
Maxed gunnery skills in a coercer will let you alpha a rat every 3-4 seconds.

It's not a guess, you're just doing it wrong.


I'll go into this in far more detail later tonight with more numbers. I can say right now I have made triple the isk your method provides with only a 30% increase in time spent. Your method gets a new player a bit of isk and a bit of LP. My method gets them a meta fitted T1 cruiser when 2's open to them. It's not me doing it wrong or being butthurt cause I may be wrong in some cases. And it's certainly not me opening my mouth with nothing to back it up.

I am the one doing 100 level 1 missions in the worst salvage space in maybe the worst boat to do them in. I plan to move to other areas and continue this test so we can come to some type of factual basis for what truly is the most efficient method ISK wise. Not that your really interested in the results unless they agree with your previously held opinions. Luckily I could care less how you feel about this subject and will present it for people to look at and maybe be a guide for them to work with and make their own decisions based on their own circumstances.

ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group
The Veerhouven Group
Posted - 2011.08.09 04:06:00 - [63]
 

Edited by: ACY GTMI on 09/08/2011 04:06:44
Nor, it's a waste of time to argue with her. She apparently can't learn, and she won't go away.

Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
Posted - 2011.08.09 10:04:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: Nor Tzestu
I am the one doing 100 level 1 missions in the worst salvage space in maybe the worst boat to do them in. I plan to move to other areas and continue this test so we can come to some type of factual basis for what truly is the most efficient method ISK wise. Not that your really interested in the results unless they agree with your previously held opinions. Luckily I could care less how you feel about this subject and will present it for people to look at and maybe be a guide for them to work with and make their own decisions based on their own circumstances.


Good god, get a ****ing life.

Some issues:
1. You're doing it wrong. Ergo, the results of your 100 missions will be laughed at / trolled, etc. If you did it in a half decent manner (sniping destroyer) for comparison it may be.
2. The average player will only grind enough level one missions to open up level 2's. Why ... why!?
Because of a little thing called the EPIC ARC - in which players will get the funds and the skills (SP and pilot) to be able to decently fly a cruiser, which will have no issue in a level 2 mission, worth substantially more ISK/LP yet with typically the same salvage. If they completed these (much, much harder than a level one mission..) and then decide to stick to level one missions long enough to collect half a dozen useless meta 0 modules, they're a ****** or haven't learned better. Most learn quite quickly they're better off in the next mission level up. Some of you spacktards can't.
3. Grinding level 1's to get to level 2's will take something like 5-10 missions with the new system. Given that your level one salvaging will probably be cutting into your level two mission running it is full on ****** to do it.

tl;dr - have your "fun" - the results are meaningless. The player will always be better off ignoring the ****ing salvage and hopping along the route to level 2 missions than he will plodding about collecting bits of scraps and hoping for the RNG gods to give him something worth 100k.

Originally by: ACY GTMI
Nor, it's a waste of time to argue with her. She apparently can't learn, and she won't go away

I hardly ever do anything PVE, and I still do it better than you when I do. Sucks to be you, I guess. Had any good chats in your alliance of alts lately?

Lets look at this from another angle.

Lets assume, for a moment, that salvaging *is* worthwhile. For it to be worthwhile you would need to make more money per minute (or hour) when salvaging than blitzing the missions, yes? I think we can all agree here that if you make more ISK in an hour of salvaging, than you do in an hour of missioning, that would be the definition of worthwhile .. yea? Good.

Now, riddle me this: Why in the actual **** are you lot running missions. At all!? SURELY you've come to realise that simply salvaging someone elses level 1-4 mission is actually worth MORE money to you than running your own mission? DEAR LORD what are you people doing!? There is ISK out there for the taking, and you're dumb enough to shoot rats for their tiny little bounties instead?! Ask any ninja salvager what their ISK/hr is, and you'll get a pretty low figure. Yes, this includes the VERY COMMON situation where someone just blues all the wrecks when you warp in, and you can tractor/ salvage freely.

I really don't know what to make of your completely backwards thinking, I really don't. You're either right, and therefore stupid. Or you're wrong, or therefore stupid.

I really don't know which it is. Enlighten me?

The TL;DR of this entire ****ing series of threads is this:

Marauders, changes in rig sizes, the loot nerf and everyone's alt in a Noctis have lowered the price of salvage to a level where it is simply not feasible for a low SP pilot, with a salvager fitted to his mission ship, or several on a destroyer, to compete. Bounties, however, have stayed the same. Mission rewards have gone up. The net result is a better ISK/hr on the missions than the salvage

Wikingen
Posted - 2011.08.09 10:47:00 - [65]
 

nice

Nor Tzestu
Amarr
Boxwater Intelligence
Posted - 2011.08.09 13:11:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: Nor Tzestu on 09/08/2011 13:14:25
no worries. the 8 in game mails from various people showed me plenty. the butthurt is funny though. so mad lol.

foksieloy
Minmatar
Rockets ponies and rainbows
Posted - 2011.08.09 13:14:00 - [67]
 

*casts Turn Undead on the bloody topic that won't go away*

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.08.10 13:44:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 10/08/2011 13:50:08
Originally by: foksieloy
*casts Turn Undead on the bloody topic that won't go away*


Ha! Ha!

Yeah ... I was surprised to come back and find this so active ... figured it would be a few pages back.



A few comments:

1) Running Missions in a destroyer should speed up the mission running - but so should salvaging them in one.

2) All salvaging vs mission running times are grossly approximate. The missions are to different and players mission running techniques are to varied. Thus - trying to make any kind of calculations based on them ... is worthless.

My salvage time for a wreck field is about equal to the time I can fly through the field in a destroyer under afterburner. The only time I stop moving is if I get into an area with a lot of wrecks in it. For people with low cap skills they need to watch their cap more.

My mission time is longer than my salvaging time, by how much varies with the mission. 1/3rd to 1/5th ... ??? Just a guess. Unless I run the exact same mission ... it's going to be different.

3) Lady Go actually corrected someone on my behalf ... will wonders never cease? Sorry she got such poor salvage results - mine are much better. I even got a trit bar from a bunch of drones ... laughed my ass off.

4) When I spoke of a Test lasting 100 missions - that's a TEST - that's not what a new person would do. If you run 100 missions - then you've got a pretty good data set that should average out. A new person just trying to get to Level II's wouldn't do that. You would also want to be running the missions and salvaging them in destroyers.

Remember I also said - you'd need 36 characters to do a thorough test - 3 for each of the schools - AND - that no one - myself included was going to do something like that. Now - the reason for 3 per school is The Rule of Three. That's an old testers term. Essentially - testing something once means nothing. Testing it twice can be coincidence. But - if you test something AT LEAST 3 times - then you're probably getting reasonably accurate results. Of course for some criteria the results would need to be identical to pass - while for others you could take an average over the three.


5) As I've said ... the point I'm trying to make - is that each person needs to think about what it is they are doing and what works for them. Saying that Salvaging is never worth while - is just stupid. Saying that it would always be worthwhile to everyone would be just as stupid. There is no one best way to play the game. There are only advantages and disadvantages.

Three examples:

a) Someone is running missions and doesn't think they're getting enough from their mission rewards, bonuses and bounties - so they increase their total by salvaging their missions - and that works for them. They DO make more money than if they'd spent the time running more missions. Bookmarking your wrecks and coming around and salvaging them all at once is the best way to do that.

b) Someone is in the same position as in a) above - until they get into Level II's and there they find that they're getting enough from mission rewards, bounties and bonuses to satisfy their funding - and they stop salvaging to devote more time to mission running. They might begin salvaging again when they get to Level III's or IV's - or just not bother.

c) Someone tries salvaging - just keeps getting crappy salvage and gives up on it.


As some of the posts in this thread have shown - people are getting different results. Lady Go and I have had dissimilar experiences with Angel Salvage (assuming she isn't lying ...).

*shrug*

To paraphrase Forrest Gump's Mother: "Salvage is like a box of chocolates - you never know what you're going to get." Of course ... the same could be said for missions themselves ...


*shrug*

Salvaging/looting are options.

Each player should think for themselves what best serves THEM.

.

Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
Posted - 2011.08.10 15:51:00 - [69]
 

Edited by: Lady Go Diveher on 10/08/2011 15:51:57
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
yararahh


So players should decide for themselves what is a better thing to do? Ok. But apparently the only way of doing this would

Quote:
need 36 characters ...... 100 missions .... blah blah blah


So what you're saying is, in summary:

- Players should work out for themselves whether it is worthwhile
- The only way of working that out is to have 12 accounts (I don't even know...) and run 100 (or did you mean 100 x 3 = 300..?) missions .. which you admit no one will do.

From this, the logical mind can draw two conclusions:
- You're no better at giving advice than tossing a coin (you admit your advice is unverifiable by the above)
- Given we cannot decide whether salvaging is worthwhile, and we DO know that missions are, the only logical conclusion is to run more missions.

I really never thought you'd come around to my way of thinking, but thanks.

/thread

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.08.10 20:01:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
Edited by: Lady Go Diveher on 10/08/2011 15:51:57
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
yararahh


So players should decide for themselves what is a better thing to do? Ok. But apparently the only way of doing this would

Quote:
need 36 characters ...... 100 missions .... blah blah blah


So what you're saying is, in summary:

- Players should work out for themselves whether it is worthwhile
- The only way of working that out is to have 12 accounts (I don't even know...) and run 100 (or did you mean 100 x 3 = 300..?) missions .. which you admit no one will do.

From this, the logical mind can draw two conclusions:
- You're no better at giving advice than tossing a coin (you admit your advice is unverifiable by the above)
- Given we cannot decide whether salvaging is worthwhile, and we DO know that missions are, the only logical conclusion is to run more missions.

I really never thought you'd come around to my way of thinking, but thanks.

/thread



Oh bull **** ... More Trolling ...

That's a typical Lady Go Straw Man Argument - twist what someone else said into something absurd and then conclude that you're right ...

No pin head - 36 characters would be needed for the TEST I had in mind - which I repeatedly said no one would do. Just as I said that running 100 missions was a TEST - NOT something a new player would do. There is a difference between doing a TEST and having players work out from their own experience what works best for them.

Lies. More ****ing lies.

Which is really to bad. There are some areas where you are knowledgeable but you spend so much time trolling other players - which is what you were doing here, that you create confusion where there shouldn't be any. Instead of making a positive contribution to the discussion - you muddy things up with obfuscations - distorting what others have said just so you can try to convince someone you didn't lose the argument.


Now ... as to acknowledging who is right and who is wrong ..



Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
One of the things Lady Go accuses me of is making up a fantasy about, NOT losing any mission running time by salvaging all my missions AFTER I have finished running them for the day.


Well, ****. You were actually doing alright up to that point.

In your specific example, where the number of missions is finite, then post-hoc salvaging is always going to earn you more ISK. I never disputed that. I pointed out the fact that carrying the assumption that "salvaging doesn't take any time out from mission running" and equating it to the broader sense of "ISK/hr salvaging vs. mission running" is a poor fallacy.

Anyway, I won't comment further until I have tried this in Minmatar space. It is *possible* that the specific example of level one missions with angel wrecks breaks the general trend of salvage being a poorer ISK/hr activity than mission blitzing.




Since I've been saying all along that saving your salvage and doing it all at the end was what I was suggesting (to have your salvaging interfere in your mission running the least) - then we don't have a disagreement on that.

For EVERYONE who is only going to run a limited number of missions (under 2 hours worth) and then stop - if they spend a little extra time and salvage them all - they'll have more money than if they didn't.

For people who are running more than 2 hours worth of missions - such that their wrecks would expire if they didn't take a break and salvage them - then they have to make a decision as to whether or not it is worth it to them to do so.

For people who have a limited amount of playing time and are trying to fill that with missions - then salvaging is going to cut into that - and they have to decide if it is worth while enough for them to do it.


I'm offering players different options that they might consider - you're telling them lies (so you can troll).

*shrug*

.

Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
Posted - 2011.08.11 10:51:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
For EVERYONE who is only going to run a limited number of missions (under 2 hours worth) and then stop - if they spend a little extra time and salvage them all - they'll have more money than if they didn't.

I agree. Here's a real life example.

Someone decides they would spend an hour painting, no more, because that is all the painting they wanted to do that day. They sell that painting for $100. They have earned $100 an hour, for the amount of work they are doing.

They then decide, since they are still in the studio (i.e. still playing eve) that they will collect all their used paintbrushes, categorize them, and sell them on eBay instead of recycling them. It takes 20/25minutes. It nets him $26 dollars.

Now, what you are saying, is that the person is best off collecting up all his brushes and selling them, in the time following on from his "work." It's free money, you say.

What I am saying, is if the person only had 3 hours of time available to him, he is better off making three paintings and selling them, than he is worrying about any money lost by not making the most of his brushes.

On top of that, he gets better at painting, so people start paying him more and more per painting. His brushes, though worth more, become worth an increasingly smaller total cost until the artist starts wondering why he even spends a moment thinking about them, when he could be selling masterpieces for $$$$.

Eventually, the artist will realize he can have his cake and eat it too; he hires a work experience guy who collects and categorizes his brushes for him, and pockets 50% of the earnings. The artist can then earn ISK whilst he earns ISK, and Xzibit eventually visits his studio and grins.

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.08.11 13:55:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
For EVERYONE who is only going to run a limited number of missions (under 2 hours worth) and then stop - if they spend a little extra time and salvage them all - they'll have more money than if they didn't.

I agree. Here's a real life example.

Someone decides they would spend an hour painting, no more, because that is all the painting they wanted to do that day. They sell that painting for $100. They have earned $100 an hour, for the amount of work they are doing.

They then decide, since they are still in the studio (i.e. still playing eve) that they will collect all their used paintbrushes, categorize them, and sell them on eBay instead of recycling them. It takes 20/25minutes. It nets him $26 dollars.

Now, what you are saying, is that the person is best off collecting up all his brushes and selling them, in the time following on from his "work." It's free money, you say.

What I am saying, is if the person only had 3 hours of time available to him, he is better off making three paintings and selling them, than he is worrying about any money lost by not making the most of his brushes.

On top of that, he gets better at painting, so people start paying him more and more per painting. His brushes, though worth more, become worth an increasingly smaller total cost until the artist starts wondering why he even spends a moment thinking about them, when he could be selling masterpieces for $$$$.

Eventually, the artist will realize he can have his cake and eat it too; he hires a work experience guy who collects and categorizes his brushes for him, and pockets 50% of the earnings. The artist can then earn ISK whilst he earns ISK, and Xzibit eventually visits his studio and grins.



More Trolling - here disguised as using math to illustrate a point. Trolls love math. Most people won't check their numbers because ... they don't like math.

.

Kraven Stark
Caldari
Atavism Industries
Posted - 2011.08.11 13:58:00 - [73]
 

I guess it's impossible for either of you to be the bigger man?

Chimera Ur
Nibado Inc
Posted - 2011.08.11 14:41:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk

For EVERYONE who is only going to run a limited number of missions (under 2 hours worth) and then stop - if they spend a little extra time and salvage them all - they'll have more money than if they didn't.



Before you said salvaging after a mission takes you about 1/3rd the time of a mission, so "a little extra time" is in fact 40 minutes.

What it basically boils down to is income. It doesn't matter if you calculate it as incoome/hour or per minute, but it is important to see all actions where you 'generate' ISK by the amount of ISK you get per timeunit. Then there is another factor to take into account; whether that 'action' fits in the amount of time you have.

So basically there are 3 options:
- Missioning + Salvaging gives more isk/hour than pure missioning, so you salvage after you mission.
- Missioning gives more isk/hour than missioning + salvaging, so you only do missions.
- Missioning gives more isk/hour than missioning + salvaging, but you don't have enough time left to run another mission

You keep complicating the dicussion by mixing all 3. From a pure income/hour standpoint salvaging L1 missions by going back to the station, getting your salvager out, and then salvaging the mission probably isn't worth it. Not in my experience atleast; the salvage you get from those missions is rather poor. For L4s it's a different story altogether. It completely depends on the missions you get though. Also; if you have a seperate account (like I do) it's definately worth the extra income.

Ofcourse you're right that salvaging a mission gives you money, and that for a single mission running a mission + salvage nets you more money than just the mission itself. But you can't simply leave time out of the equation; how much time you spend for a certain amount of ISK is the most important factor in deciding if salvaging is worth the time.

For L1s against pirates that give bounty; it probably isn't.
For L1s against another faction that doesn't give bounty but you need to loot them for tags; it probably is.
For L4s where you have a slow T1 BS; it probably is.
For L4s where you fly a T3 and can blitz through in no time at all; it probably isn't.

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.08.11 14:56:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Kraven Stark
I guess it's impossible for either of you to be the bigger man?


Sadly ... there is an impression created by allowing the other person the last word - that they "won" the argument.

That influences people who don't know any better.

Also ... "being the better man" is often the refuge of the arguments loser.

*shrug*

Now ... there are times when people can simply agree to disagree - and I've reached those conclusions with others any number of times. That however requires some degree of mutual respect ... and I don't really see that happening here.

.

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.08.11 15:32:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Chimera Ur
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk

For EVERYONE who is only going to run a limited number of missions (under 2 hours worth) and then stop - if they spend a little extra time and salvage them all - they'll have more money than if they didn't.



Before you said salvaging after a mission takes you about 1/3rd the time of a mission, so "a little extra time" is in fact 40 minutes.

What it basically boils down to is income. It doesn't matter if you calculate it as incoome/hour or per minute, but it is important to see all actions where you 'generate' ISK by the amount of ISK you get per timeunit. Then there is another factor to take into account; whether that 'action' fits in the amount of time you have.

So basically there are 3 options:
- Missioning + Salvaging gives more isk/hour than pure missioning, so you salvage after you mission.
- Missioning gives more isk/hour than missioning + salvaging, so you only do missions.
- Missioning gives more isk/hour than missioning + salvaging, but you don't have enough time left to run another mission

You keep complicating the dicussion by mixing all 3. From a pure income/hour standpoint salvaging L1 missions by going back to the station, getting your salvager out, and then salvaging the mission probably isn't worth it. Not in my experience atleast; the salvage you get from those missions is rather poor. For L4s it's a different story altogether. It completely depends on the missions you get though. Also; if you have a seperate account (like I do) it's definately worth the extra income.

Ofcourse you're right that salvaging a mission gives you money, and that for a single mission running a mission + salvage nets you more money than just the mission itself. But you can't simply leave time out of the equation; how much time you spend for a certain amount of ISK is the most important factor in deciding if salvaging is worth the time.

...




First off - I said that those figures on what percentage of the time I spent salvaging vs. mission running were grossly inaccurate - precisely because there was no consistency to the ratio. It fluctuates to much. If you ran 100 missions - THEN - you might have a meaningful average - but as has been correctly pointed out - running 100 missions to do a TEST - is not something in the best interests of a new pilot. Hell - I'm not going to do it. I mention it to try and make the point that doing math on unpredictable variables - is a waste of time.

There are times when you can use math to predict things - and it is very useful in trading - but in comparing what different people, using different equipment, in different regions, against different rats, for different agents, whose mission patterns are as varied as there are people - it is a waste of time.

And all this on something that's value is randomized by the game. I get 19 ATB's and Lady Go gets 1 ...


Just get the idea of ISK/Hr - right out of your head. If you think you're figuring something out in comparison to other people - you are bull ****ting yourself. You can use it for measuring your own progress - but not to compare with someone else. You can control SOME of the variables you have and force others to consistency by the way you do things. What you do and what someone else does - is to varied to yield accurate data - except over a range that no one is going to cover. What the hell do you care what you make in relation to someone else any way? What matters is whether or not you are improving what YOU do. If the basic value of the material is randomized - you're going to have enough trouble doing THAT.



WHY some one runs a limited number of missions is going to vary with the person. As I said - for some people it's a time constraint - for others they're sick of running missions - or don't want to start a conversation with an agent - which will commit them to making a decision to accept/decline/delay the mission offered - or some other reason.

.

Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
Posted - 2011.08.11 17:05:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
Just get the idea of ISK/Hr - right out of your head. If you think you're figuring something out in comparison to other people - you are bull ****ting yourself


No, you are not. The drop rate for anything in the game is determined by two factors:

- The loot table
- The RNG (random number generator)

More goes into it than this, but any other part of the equation can be seen as "the loot table" as a whole. i.e. we are looking at the end point value.

For any given item that can drop, you effectively are left with:

Chance of drop = loot value x RNG

Lets say we are looking at "sample item one" which sells for 1million ISK on the market. You are then looking at an equation for total ISK per mission of:

Total ISK = RNG*(number of wrecks*loot table)

This is per item, that can actually drop. That part, however, is irrelevant as each and every salvaged wreck is mutually exclusive.

If you were to plot your drops from "sample item one" you would get a graph which confirmed to a normal distribution, like so:

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.


If you are not familiar with normal deviation or statistics, I will sum it up for you: The further away your drop rate is from the mean (determined by the loot table) the less likely it is to have occurred.

In plain English, large variations average out to a particular value over time, and individual samples will not deviate greatly from this.

For any given number of wrecks, then, there is an expected income. Furthermore, for a given wreck, there is a derived expected income.

Skills, both player and SP, will affect the number of wrecks you are able to access, in any given time spent trying to access them.

You then have a total income expectation of, per x salvaging:

Income (ISK/hr) = average wreck value x wrecks salvaged per hour

Again, wreck value behaves to a Bell curve.

The major issue you have here, is you are confusing the need for certain number of missions to be run, before you can make a determination. You would not expect the sampled average of 10 missions, to be statistically different to the sampled income of 100 missions. Or 1000. Or indeed 10,000 - such is the power of statistics when applied to a normal distribution.

Of the top of my head, 100 samples against a normally distributed curve gives you a confidence of the mean, as something like 99.8% - hardly the starting point for an investigation. For comparison, you can determine whether a coin is rigged to deliver more heads than tails with 99% confidence after just 8 flips.

The end result? Your entire argument is based off the fact that you simply CANNOT determine which is better to do. You can. It is not hard to do AT ALL.

I would wager that the results of few missions (a couple of hours worth ... 10-15) would be accurate to a decimal point to the amount of ISK you can make doing it, over any other given amount of time.

Simply repeat for missions, and you have two values.

Compare the two values.

If you want to earn more ISK in a given time, do more of the higher value.

It really is that simple.

You seem to state I like to "prove things with math" and I really, really am DREADFULLY sorry if this level of (quite basic) math eludes you, but it's really not my problem. I will not let your pathetic excuse for an argument pass as valid.

Reeper 2435
Posted - 2011.08.11 18:00:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: foksieloy
*casts Turn Undead on the bloody topic that won't go away*


They made their saving throws!!!! For gods sakes man, cast the SLEEP SPELLExclamation

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.08.12 05:59:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Lady Go Diveher


A very pretty graph and more math references she thinks reflect reality.





Uh ... then why did I get 19 ATB's and you got 1?


And where did that graph come from? It's not from EVE is it?

You're assuming that the EVE RNG follows that graph. Do you know that?

Now as to Loot Tables - is the Salvage on the Loot Table or a separate one? I don't know. Obviously - the code references only salvage for wrecks and only loot for ... loot - *shrug* ...

Are the Salvage Items weighted - so that the better ones drop less often? It seems as though they are to me. Do you know? You seem to be saying that they are. Do you have a reference for that? Is this how it really works - or is this how you think it works? I know that some people have posted information on loot tables but I don't know where that is - do you?

As to the coin example ... it's only got two possibilities? Whey even bring that up?

What really matters is - do you know the chances of an ATB dropping - if so - what are they?

The thing is ...

You've got a large number of possible drops of varying value and a random number generator deciding each one individually. Thus - as you know - they theoretically could all come up with the same drop every time. What you got on a previous drop will not influence the next. If - you have a 3% chance of something dropping one time - you will have a 3% chance of it dropping the next time.

Another question - isn't there an initial calculation as to whether or not there is ANY loot - and then another calculation as to what it is? Or is Zero a value included in the table itself - such that "Nothing" would be considered by the table to be an item?

CCP could have done it either way ... but I don't know - have they published that - and do you have a reference for how they did it?


It's common place for players such as you and I to THINK we know how something works - but to actually be wrong. It may seem to work in a certain manner - which leads us to speculate about the inner workings of the code - which we actually know nothing about - unless CCP has published information on it.


And yes Ms. Troll - I was actually able to read and understand your post ... Unless you're over 25 you weren't born when I took statistics and calculus ... and as expected I never actually used any of that in my job - though I did use some Trig. I know I've forgotten most of it. Which is a shame but ... then I've long since passed the point where I've forgotten vastly more than I know. And - I do remember what it was like to be young - when all the world seemed so simple. You really do write like a young nerd in college ...

I'm not vague though on people doing math on values that are much more complicated than they think they are. I've seen that crap IRL to many times - and the negative results that stem from it.


So - you trivialize the significance of a RNG that has resulted in an obvious variance between what you and I have gotten in salvage - and treat that as something that IS easily predictable and quantifiable - when it isn't - NOT TO MENTION all the OTHER FACTORS I noted that come into play.


It isn't Math that's the problem - it's the misuse of math. If you don't account for ALL the variables in ALL their complexity - then your calculations are going to be off.


IF you worked on the code for EVE and had access to all of it's tables and calculations - THEN - you might be able to come up with an accurate mathematical model for how all this works - but you don't - and because they tend to not want the players to understand exactly how things work (less people use that knowledge to their advantage) much of the information you would need is probably not published. If you know of some that is - I'd enjoy seeing the reference.

And - one more time - you are leaving out all the human variables that are involved. THAT is the primary reason you can't compare things between different players.

.

foksieloy
Minmatar
Rockets ponies and rainbows
Posted - 2011.08.12 06:38:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Reeper 2435
They made their saving throws!!!! For gods sakes man, cast the SLEEP SPELLExclamation


Sleep doesn't work on undead you newb. :D

Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
Posted - 2011.08.12 11:47:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
Dear. ****ing. God.


None of your post matters. At all. It can have 1 variable. It can have 10^100 variables, it DOES NOT MATTER.

You can readily calculate the END probability of something dropping. If it is 50%, 25% 10 or 1% it does not matter.

You can perform any activity with a pretty small standard deviation and form a mean from a handful of repeats. SCHOOL CHILDREN KNOW THIS.

I suggest a refresher course on math, because you are utterly, utterly clueless.

I will say again - your argument is based on the fact that people cannot calculate their average income from missions and salvage. Your argument is based on the fact that no-one elses experience of this matters.

They can. It does.

I can.

YOU can't because you're too ****ing set in your ways to think, or you've realized you're wrong and just won't ****ing back down.

I'm ending this here. Anyone with half a brain can see I am right, anyone deluded into believing anything you say after this can join you in ****ing ****** carebear dip**** land.

Originally by: Toshiro Greyhawk
ohh gee jolly gosh! I could be missioning for a decent in****or eye kud be collecting the lowerst levul space junksies for 5 THOUSAND ISSSS***!! lalalallalal

Chimera Ur
Nibado Inc
Posted - 2011.08.12 13:44:00 - [82]
 

I'm sorry Toshiro GreyHawk but saying that math doesn't matter is just silly. Math is all computers can do, and the game we're playing is just applied math. It doesn't matter if you use it to do your taxes or use it to shoot stuff in space, it's all still math.

And everyone for themselves can in fact figure out what is more efficient for them. Sure it depends on a number of factors, but you should know on average how long it takes you to kill X frigs, Y cruisers and Z battleships. And also how long it takes you to loot and salvage them. So that means that you can in fact work out for yourself whether salvaging is more efficient than pure missioning or not.

Calculating ISK income per hour IS important when you're trying to maximize the amount of isk you get per hour. The only limit we all have is time; we can only play X hours per week tops. And in those hours I would, if I am trying to save for a new ship, try to get as much isk per hour as possible. Everyone would. However, a lot of players instead of actually calculating it go with a 'gut feeling', just like you are doing, and often those 'gut feelings' are wrong.

Just this week I was mining veldspar for a bit (had to replace my domi), and a Hulk pulls up right next to my and starts mining. I was a bit ****ed ofcourse because it's not very efficient to both stripmine the same roids, but then I noticed he was actually mining Plagioclase. His 'gut feeling' told him it was worth more than the Scordite and Veldspar in that field, and his 'gut feeling' was very very wrong.

Ofcourse, calculating ore income is easier than calculating mission income, but I have been doing that since I started salvaging L2 missions and since I salvage on a different account I can see how much it gave me in ISK income. And while looting and salvaging level 4's is definately worth the time, for most level 2's it actually wasn't if I would've had to go grab my salvager from the station instead of having a separate account to fly with me.

Bottomline is; whether it's efficient for someone to salvage a mission depends on the level of missions and how fast they kill stuff. It also depends on the missions you get, but you can work out what you get on average. But for level 1 missions it's only efficient if you're really really slow at killing stuff.

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.08.13 05:48:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Chimera Ur
I'm sorry Toshiro GreyHawk but saying that math doesn't matter is just silly. Math is all computers can do, and the game we're playing is just applied math. It doesn't matter if you use it to do your taxes or use it to shoot stuff in space, it's all still math.

And everyone for themselves can in fact figure out what is more efficient for them. Sure it depends on a number of factors, but you should know on average how long it takes you to kill X frigs, Y cruisers and Z battleships. And also how long it takes you to loot and salvage them. So that means that you can in fact work out for yourself whether salvaging is more efficient than pure missioning or not.

Calculating ISK income per hour IS important when you're trying to maximize the amount of isk you get per hour. The only limit we all have is time; we can only play X hours per week tops. And in those hours I would, if I am trying to save for a new ship, try to get as much isk per hour as possible. Everyone would. However, a lot of players instead of actually calculating it go with a 'gut feeling', just like you are doing, and often those 'gut feelings' are wrong.

Just this week I was mining veldspar for a bit (had to replace my domi), and a Hulk pulls up right next to my and starts mining. I was a bit ****ed ofcourse because it's not very efficient to both stripmine the same roids, but then I noticed he was actually mining Plagioclase. His 'gut feeling' told him it was worth more than the Scordite and Veldspar in that field, and his 'gut feeling' was very very wrong.

Ofcourse, calculating ore income is easier than calculating mission income, but I have been doing that since I started salvaging L2 missions and since I salvage on a different account I can see how much it gave me in ISK income. And while looting and salvaging level 4's is definately worth the time, for most level 2's it actually wasn't if I would've had to go grab my salvager from the station instead of having a separate account to fly with me.

Bottomline is; whether it's efficient for someone to salvage a mission depends on the level of missions and how fast they kill stuff. It also depends on the missions you get, but you can work out what you get on average. But for level 1 missions it's only efficient if you're really really slow at killing stuff.


If you had read my posts more closely - you would see that I agree with 90% of what you said.

My objection was not to math - but bad math.

Yes - absolutely - you can use math to help you figure out YOUR income - because you have a good handle on all the variables of what YOU are doing.

Trying to compare YOUR results to what someone else is doing - is the problem.

Take that guy in the Hulk that you assume was doing it wrong. You don't know why he was mining Plag. - unless you asked him. He could have had any number of reasons. Of course ... he could have been making a mistake too. I don't know why he was doing it either - but then I don't think that I do.

Also - not EVERYONE - is trying to make as much money as they can. People have all kinds of different reasons for why they do things the way they do them. Fun being one of them. This is a game. Having fun is more important than making ISK. If something turns into WORK, then even if you can make more money by doing it may not be worth doing - to YOU.

Don't be a simplistic moron like Lady Go - who thinks that there is a BEST way to do things (and she's doing it). There are all kinds of different ways to do things - depending on what the individual wants to do.

And - by all means - use math as much as you like in figuring out what is going on ... just don't bull **** yourself that you've done some simplistic little calculation and come up with some kind of universal answer. Some things lend themselves very well to mathematical evaluation. Other things don't. Know the difference. (Big hint here: If it involves humans ... it's going to produce vagaries ...).

.

ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group
The Veerhouven Group
Posted - 2011.08.13 11:01:00 - [84]
 

Edited by: ACY GTMI on 13/08/2011 11:01:47
Originally by: Lady Go Diveher


So players should decide for themselves what is a better thing to do? Ok. But apparently the only way of doing this would

Quote:
need 36 characters ...... 100 missions .... blah blah blah





Other players pay their fees, just like I assume you do. That means that they get to decide what they do and how they do it. God didn't die and leave you in charge, so leave them alone and let them decide.

Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
Posted - 2011.08.13 13:24:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
Yes - absolutely - you can use math to help you figure out YOUR income - because you have a good handle on all the variables of what YOU are doing.

Trying to compare YOUR results to what someone else is doing - is the problem.


If you go back to my ORIGINAL comments on this whole sordid mess, you will see that it is I WHO STATED that players should calculate their income for themselves. I said it in my last post, too. I said it in the one before that. I suggested my experience, which was that level 1 & 2 missions were worthless. Your replies have been nothing but a series of half baked ideas and insults, aimed at supporting YOUR OWN gameplay, and YOUR own idea YOU have attempted to force onto people. Not just here, but elsewhere.

Here is how the thread devolved, the highlights (with some paraphrasing, but I will link numbers so you can check what I am saying):

OP: Are mining missions worthwhile?
Several: No, just mine tbh.
OP: Ok, cool.

Tosh, post 6: You recommend running (and salvaging) level one missions.
Post 7: Someone else suggests this is a waste of time.
Tosh, post 8: "Congratulations on being a brain dead moron."
You defend with a caveat, based on a false assumption
Quote:
"IF someone is going to take the time to Mine the Mission space - which this discussion is all about - then savlaging and looting the wrecks too doesn't take that much more time."


You then, in post 9, come out with your magical "it adds no extra time" theory:
Quote:
"Now ... Salvaging and Looting Level I & II missions - DOES substantially add to the money you get for those missions - and if you do it right - doesn't add that much more time. You run all your missions, bookmarking a wreck in each zone then - when you're all done running missions - you come back and salvage them all"


Lets sum up so far. YOU have claimed it is worthwhile doing. No evidence presented. A completely illogical series of reasons, so far, as to why it is.

In response to such craziness? Such terrible advice being posted in the new player forum? I trolled. Troll cannons astern, pew pew.

Your response added nothing, it was an ad-hominem attack.

In post 11, you also then claim that I do not know how much I make from each. You also admit, that you do not.

In post 13, you then state your position again. Ad-hominem attacks. No evidence.

In post 16, you claim that you do not know what you earn but still claim it is more anyway. Essentially, you admit to rampant confirmation bias.

In post 18, I call BS and ask for evidence. I claim if you were to ACTUALLY work it out, instead of just ranting, you would see what I mean.

Post 21, ad-hominem attacks. You then demand I WORK IT OUT instead of you.
In a piece of deluded magic, you claim that:
- If I work it out, I am lying and a troll
- You won't work it out, as you don't need to
- You also claim that ISK/hr is a myth .. so any calculation is pointless.
- Ad-hominem attacks.

Post 22
Nothing but more personal attacks.

[more slinging]

Post 26, I return after actually testing the theory I spout, and post numbers.

Post 33, and you're back. You then tell ME that I should not tell other players what is best. This in spite of doing a test.
Remember, my point: work it out themselves. Your point: I CAN TELL YOU NOW THAT IT IS WORTHWHILE.

Post 35, where I state again:
Quote:
It really ... REALLY is this simple:
A)Work out ISK/hr salvaging.
B)Work out ISK/hr mission running.
If B > A then you WILL LOSE ISK SALVAGING.


Post 37, tosh: "I want proof"

Post 40, wherein you run ONE mission, and claim THREE lucky drops. Conclusion? YAY! You still fail to make any ISK/hr determination. You then lie, and claim you have been the one telling people to work it out.

48: Baseless conclusion: "the point was that salvaging was worth while"

51: And the magical "because it takes no time" theory/justification is back.

52: I call BS.

(continued in 2 minutes...)

Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
Posted - 2011.08.13 13:30:00 - [86]
 

53: It is worthwhile, as it takes no time.

54: Someone else calls BS

55: I too, call BS again. I implore people to test my figures.

57: Another person points out your lack of logic.

(58-60 I suggest some general advice to a new player, despite him trying to troll me)

66: I describe how it is pointless to salvage level 1s, systemically. i.e. Epic arc leaves players not needing to worry about level ones as they have DONE HARDER already - their best option to earn ISK is to blitz through.

68: You claim you can't work out the income, as you need 100 tests. You will also need 36 characters. Apparently, working it out at all is impossible. You claim players should work out for themselves if it is possible, yet you also claim it is impossible to work out / will never be calculated.

69: I call BS.

70: Ad-hominem attacks.

71: I use an example.

72: Ad-hominem reply, adds nothing. Links to me "trying to use math to prove a point"

74: More people agree with me

76: You claim again, 100 tests are needed. You claim ISK/hr is a myth, again.

77: I demonstrate, via statistics, how you do not need 100 tests.

79: You sadly fail to grasp statistics. Don't recognise a bell curve. Fail to understand the concept of variables. You do admit though, that you last did any maths over 25 years ago, which could be a large part of the issue. "Math doesn't matter" you say. Remember, we're talking about calculating a mean, here. A mathematical property.

81: I re-explain the concept of variables.

82: More defense from other players, stating it is easy to calculate, and they have.

83: Wherin you claim that some people are not in it for the ISK, they want to have fun. Which is very nice, and all, but it still doesn't answer which activity makes more ISK.

You then fail to realise that you have effectively agreed with me: that a player CAN work out THEIR income and determine which is best, something to previously claimed was impossible.

In summary, then.

You entered this thread, and told a new player how to mine mission space, and how to run missions. Severl people called absolute BS on the idea of salvaging them, like you originally said to do.
Enter a completely stupid dance where you come up with ever elaborate reasons as to why salvaging is worthwhile.
Ultimately, you seem to have come to the conclusion that players can work it out for themselves, but should refrain from forcing this opinion on others.
Basically, Tosh, you're (slowly) coming to say what I said originally on the subject "The OP can work out for himself what earns more ISK and do more of it" - a statment I have had nothing but illogic and harassment from you for making.

I have posted again, despite my better judgement, to simply make a statement:

This entire thread has been about YOUR EGO. YOU came here to offer your "fantastic advice" - but on being told, essentially, to go away and let people work it out, have posted ever more ridiculous statements in defense of it. Everything from "it takes no time at all" to "you can't work it out" to "you COULD work it out, but no one will" to "math is irrelevent when calculating an average"

Finally - you have stated THE SAME THING I DID when I posted originally, in the other thread: "Players should work out for themselves which is best."

It has been my repeat experience that a moderately skilled combat toon, spending the same amount of time on each, will earn more ISK mission running, at level 1 & 2. Furthermore, toons actually doing these missions are overskilled due to the time taken to run the epic arc, and as such should blow through them to missions that match their skill level, and ergo optimise their income.

I DO NOT CARE if someone finds X more fun than Y, I really, really, do not. That is their own decision to make. You can still make a determination on which EARNS MORE without deciding which you would rather do.

Nor Tzestu
Amarr
Boxwater Intelligence
Posted - 2011.08.13 15:12:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Lady Go Diveher


Good god, get a ****ing life.




Not sure if serious? 3 page emo nerd rage rants of butthurt tend to disqualify the above "statement".

This thread has turned into pure lulz over who has the most tears and mad. Up til recently it's been neck and neck but you are clearly pulling ahead with the epic rage posts. The "numbered" responses were an extra nice touch of win. To go through this thread and count posts etc. Bravo.

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.08.14 00:24:00 - [88]
 

Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 14/08/2011 00:27:46
Originally by: Lady Go Diveher


...

I'm ending this here. Anyone with half a brain can see I am right, anyone deluded into believing anything you say after this can join you in ****ing ****** carebear dip**** land.

...








Uh ... I thought you left?


In any case ... if we both agree that people should work it out for themselves ... I guess this has just been a giant misunderstanding. Ya Think?

*shrug*


You have a nice day now.


.


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