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Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
Posted - 2011.08.02 11:40:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Lady Go Diveher on 02/08/2011 11:40:17
Originally by: Me, earlier
Here, all of you go read about opportunity cost and then come back here and sound less ******ed.


Originally by: ACT GTMI
If the salvage was free, which it isn't, what does that have to do with it? You are suggesting that salvaging is a waste of time. I can tell you from experience, which you don't seem to have, that it is not a waste of time. It is a way to make ISK.


As I keep pointing out: you can make more money running the next mission. Ergo, you have LOST ISK due to opportunity cost in the process of salvaging low level missions.

If you want to make rigs, make MORE isk with missioning. Buy more salvage. Make more rigs. Profit.

It's not rocket science.

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.08.02 12:04:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 02/08/2011 12:05:27

Originally by: Enna Shendara
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk



Congratulations on being a brain dead moron.

IF someone is going to take the time to Mine the Mission space - which this discussion is all about - then savlaging and looting the wrecks too doesn't take that much more time.




No, this thread was about MINING MISSIONS, not MINING IN MISSIONS. What the hell is wrong with you people?

OP: mining missions are not worth your time, but are an effective way of grinding standings, although not as effective as courier missions.



Hi Enna,

This is what the OP wrote:

Originally by: Van Zardas
hi all,
i started a new char mainly to mine with it (to rest from pve missions and salvage;P) and i have a question: are mining missions really an option to look on it, or as a miner just mine and don't do any missions?


You'll notice here that the OP is actually talking about mining - and thought that Mining Missions - might be a good thing to do. A lot of people make that mistake. You'd think that if it were a Mining Mission - you'd be able to mine something in it that was worth while. Unfortunately this is not the case. In Mining Missions - the only ore there - is non-marketable mission objects that you must retrieve to give to your agent. There is no Veldspar or Scordite you could mine to make money with.

Thus, what I told the OP earlier in the thread - was that if you want Missions - where you Could mine marketable ores - then what you wanted was Security Missions - as these sometimes had marketable ores in them - and - that by mining in Mission Space - you were more secure than mining in belts.

So - the OP DID ask a question about Mining Missions - but - the answer to their question was that what they really wanted - was Security Missions.

Then ... the thread got jacked by the ongoing feud between Lady Go and myself ... which is unfortunate but ... *shrug* ...

.

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.08.02 12:14:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
Edited by: Lady Go Diveher on 02/08/2011 11:40:17
Originally by: Me, earlier
Here, all of you go read about opportunity cost and then come back here and sound less ******ed.


Originally by: ACT GTMI
If the salvage was free, which it isn't, what does that have to do with it? You are suggesting that salvaging is a waste of time. I can tell you from experience, which you don't seem to have, that it is not a waste of time. It is a way to make ISK.


As I keep pointing out: you can make more money running the next mission. Ergo, you have LOST ISK due to opportunity cost in the process of salvaging low level missions.

If you want to make rigs, make MORE isk with missioning. Buy more salvage. Make more rigs. Profit.

It's not rocket science.



The problem is - that's not always true.

For SOME people - it is true.

For other people it is not.

For the opportunity cost to exceed in value the value of the choice made - the opportunity passed up actually has to be worth more. Which for some people it isn't.

That is the thing that you can't get through your thick skull.

Everyone playing this game is NOT playing under the same conditions.

Your approach is to TELL other people what to do. My approach is to point out that they look at different alternatives and pick the one they think best for them.

Neither YOU nor I know what is best for SOMEONE else.

The difference between us - is that I know that - and you don't.

.

Kraven Stark
Caldari
Atavism Industries
Posted - 2011.08.02 13:33:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Kraven Stark on 02/08/2011 13:34:24
Edited by: Kraven Stark on 02/08/2011 13:33:43
Edited by: Kraven Stark on 02/08/2011 13:33:14
Originally by: ACY GTMI
Originally by: Kraven Stark


If you do it right? /boggle

Also, I'm aware of what the discussion is about.

In any case, unless you have a tractor and a salvager on your ship along with a full allotment of miners and all the wrecks happen to be right around the roid you are breaking, it is not worth it to fly a separate ship out for the pittance you will get from any of the lvl 1 ships.




Do you use a hauler, or not that advanced yet? My haulers are equipped with salvage gear. Makes it really easy. You get some nice stuff sometimes, make things harder for the can flippers, and keep the area neat as well, making target selection easier.
***************************************************

Where can I get an "I Survived Incarna" T-Shirt?



I salvage in a Noctis.

Also, the chances of getting anything that sells for a decent price from lvl 1 or 2 salvage is so against you that your ISK per hour takes a huge hit if you decide to clean up those level rooms.

Apparently you can make rigs or whatever, but unless you are able to make 3-5 an hour, it isn't worth the time required. You would be better off blitzing the missions to gain access to the next level of missions.

Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
Posted - 2011.08.02 14:28:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
The problem is - that's not always true.


It's very hard for it NOT to be true for low level missions. If the player is indeed making more ISK from salvaging and looting, it means they are doing the combat part wrong. I showed that with even basic skills (less than you would have after doing the tutorials / epic arc), running the missions is of an order of magnitude more profitable. I didn't even touch on the fact that the loot gained will need extreme market micromanagement to sell, as the buy orders and sale volume is non-existent.

Quote:
For SOME people - it is true. For other people it is not.


I repeatedly stated, here and elsewhere, they have to work it out for themselves. YOU keep saying it IS worth it. Based on **** all evidence, and your insane twisted logic. "Salvaging takes no time, trolololol"

Quote:
For the opportunity cost to exceed in value the value of the choice made - the opportunity passed up actually has to be worth more. Which for some people it isn't. That is the thing that you can't get through your thick skull.


Wut.

That literally made NO ****ING SENSE.

It really ... REALLY is this simple:

A)Work out ISK/hr salvaging.
B)Work out ISK/hr mission running.

If B > A then you WILL LOSE ISK SALVAGING.

HOW THE **** can you not understand that, yet?

Nor Tzestu
Amarr
Boxwater Intelligence
Posted - 2011.08.02 14:29:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
Originally by: Nor Tzestu
Salvage free? Well no it isn't. It can be made practically free with the right mission ship and setup


We're not talking about Marauders. We're not talking about drone boats with utility highslots. We're talking about re-shipping and going back and doing it as an entirely separate activity. For level 1 and 2 missions.

Toshiro repeatedly claims it takes him NO TIME to do it, and therefore it is free ISK.
No time, because he simply chooses not to count this time. Convenient, eh?

It's magic!


Actually we were talking about Mining ore in mission space vs. Mining missions. Then you two have to take turns ****ing up each others leg about some past grievance. How about we just skip to the TL;DR version.

In level 1/2missions it's likely not worth your time to salvage. Once you get to 3 and 4's it can be. It mainly depends on what you fly for a mission boat and why your doing those missions. There are no hard and set rules and I would advise if your not going to produce rigs, you simply loot all the tags and head on to the next one. Mining in combat mission space can be very good and at the least will be far safer than normal high sec belt mining. Mining missions on their own will provide you with no good ore in and of themselves. If your just trying to get standing and are a miner they work fine. If your looking for ore also they are not really any good for the most part.

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.08.02 16:09:00 - [37]
 

As I said:

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
Originally by: Kraven Stark
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk

3) If you've got any skill at all you should be able to complete Level I missions in a destroyer. Just kite the rats and you'll be fine. Once you kill all the rats secure the mission object if there is one, take it back to the station where you can get in your salvager if you have one. Loot and salvage the mission.

.


Please do not advise people to salvage in mission that are lvl I or II. It is a fantastic waste of time. You'll make more money in local selling sexual favors and have more dignity by the time you are done.



Congratulations on being a brain dead moron.

IF someone is going to take the time to Mine the Mission space - which this discussion is all about - then savlaging and looting the wrecks too doesn't take that much more time.

IF someone is blitzing missions - where they might want to forgo looting/salvaging to get to be able to run an extra mission in the same amount of time - then they sure as hell aren't going to be mining it either.

Two completely separate reasons for running a mission.

One - is running the mission for the purpose of mining it. The other is trying to run as many missions as possible in the absolute shortest amount of time.


Think before you type.

Don't just see "salvaging/looting" and "Level I Missions" discussed together and automatically start spouting "Level I & II Salvage I worthless!".



Now ... Salvaging and Looting Level I & II missions - DOES substantially add to the money you get for those missions - and if you do it right - doesn't add that much more time. You run all your missions, bookmarking a wreck in each zone then - when you're all done running missions - you come back and salvage them all. The wrecks last 2 hours. Sort the bookmarks in your people and places by date and take the oldest first. Warp from wreck field to wreck field and you should have them all salvaged and looted in a fairly short amount of time.


The reason for NOT doing this - is because you don't need the extra money - and just want to gain standing as fast as you can. If you do need the money - then you are better off looting and salvaging.


People who just blitz their missions get skilled to fly Battle Cruisers before they can properly use them or afford to buy and fit them. You see them all the time. They're the ones in local begging for a few million because they put everything they had into a ship they weren't ready to fly - and then lost it.


What is the #1 rule of EVE? Don't fly what you can't afford to lose. The income from Level I and II missions without at least looting and salvaging isn't going to be enough to afford to lose a Battle Cruiser by the time you get to Level III's.


.



Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk


...

The problem is - you have people such as yourself who deride those salvaging and looting their Level I missions - as if they're stupid. So ... not wanting some other player to think they're stupid ... some new players pass on this - without thinking for themselves - whether or not it's worth it to them.

They can try doing it - and if they don't like it - they can stop.

The thing is ... I have no belief what so ever - that anyone is going to go out there and do something they don't really want to do - just because I said to do it. If it's taking to long and they don't think it's worth their time - they will stop.

The problem with YOU and those like you - is that you tell people they're stupid if they do it - so they don't even try because they don't want to look stupid.


What is stupid - is blinding following anything anyone (including me) tells you to do on the forums.


You can warn people about the advantages and disadvantages of doing something - but then they should make up their own minds.

Thus - smart ass comments from people who are in a big hurry - don't help.

.




And Lady Go - I'm still waiting to see your proof.

ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group
The Veerhouven Group
Posted - 2011.08.02 16:32:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Nor Tzestu


Actually we were talking about Mining ore in mission space vs. Mining missions. Then you two have to take turns ****ing up each others leg about some past grievance. How about we just skip to the TL;DR version.




Stop reading when the Mining Mission part ends?

Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
Posted - 2011.08.02 17:02:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Lady Go Diveher on 02/08/2011 17:02:55
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
[...]Now ... Salvaging and Looting Level I & II missions - DOES substantially add to the money you get for those missions[...]


Remains fundamentally wrong.

You've made some claims. I have offered some (rough) numbers that contradict this.
Others have said you're wrong.
People with years of experience in the game and its mechanisms (Akita T) have claimed you are wrong.

You're STILL sitting there saying "PROVE IT! PROVE IT!"

Time you did what you deride others of not doing, no?

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.08.02 17:10:00 - [40]
 

And ... just to make Lady Go a little happy ...

Here's some numbers from my last mission:

Mission Reward = 48,000
Agent Mission Time Bonus = 34,000
Bounty Prisez = 36,000

Total = 118,000

Salvage - 3 Alloyed Tritanium Bars Market Quote = @130,000 ea for a total of @390,000.


Now ... as to the time involved ... I was watching TV while running and salvaging the mission ... so ... I don't know how long I took. *shrug* But ... it typically takes me much less time to salvage a mission than to run it. It also takes me NO LONGER to salvage a mission than it does to Salvage and Loot it. I tractor the wreck, turn on the salvager, loot the wreck and proceed on towards the next wreck I'm not already tractoring. I can usually salvage at least 3 missions worth of wrecks in the time it takes me to run one of them - but of course that varies.

Also - those prices for the Alloyed Tritanim Bars obviously covered a wide range depending on where I might have sold them or whether I put up a sell order (which I'm going to do when I get more) or sold to a buy order (which I had been doing because I was really short of cash).

In any case - ONE of those Alloyed Tritanium Bars was worth MORE than the bounties, mission reward and completion bonus combined.

And - that didn't include ANY of the other salvage or loot I got for that mission. I'd mixed it all in with the other stuff (where I already had ANOTHER 3 Alloyed Tritanium Bars ...) so besides the 3 ATB's I do remember (I watch for those so ... I remembered) there was some other stuff I don't remember.

Thus - my loot and salvage was MUCH more than what I got for just running the mission and gathered in LESS time.



Now - as was discussed in that other thread where this all started - Amarr & Minmatar space - yield much better salvage than Caldari and Gallente space.


The character I used for this mission has about 1,400,000 SP and has Salvaging Level II trained ... so she's not a fast salvager, in fact ... I really should get that skill up some.

*shrug*



Now - I knew all of the above - without having to track every second and every ISK. If you're going out salvaging other peoples wrecks to raise money because the mission rewards suck - you KNOW that you're getting more for your salvage than you are for your missions - and that IS what I was doing.


And - this wasn't an odd mission. This is TYPICAL of what I've been getting.


Again - as I've said again and again - not everyone's situation is the same. If you're in Gallente or Caldari space - then it may well NOT be worth your while to salvage your missions.

That is why I have repeatedly said (which Lady Go you have NOT) that it is up to the individual player to judge their particular situation and make their own decision as to whether or not to salvage their mission.


.

Kraven Stark
Caldari
Atavism Industries
Posted - 2011.08.02 17:14:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
And ... just to make Lady Go a little happy ...

Here's some numbers from my last mission:

Mission Reward = 48,000
Agent Mission Time Bonus = 34,000
Bounty Prisez = 36,000

Total = 118,000



What mission and mission level?

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.08.02 17:31:00 - [42]
 

Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 03/08/2011 08:13:49

It was a level I mission ... "The Hidden Stash" I believe. I had to blow up a few rats, then pop a structure, returning with little containers it dropped as the mission object.




Edit here ...

I do need to apologize to Lady Go for not reading her posts where she ran some missions. I think I got distracted responding to someone elses post and ... just missed them. Which is a real shame as they're the most constructive things she's done in my memory. So - again - sorry about that.


I will make one comment however on her methodology (not to compare the data we've posted - since what she did was a test and what I did was just post sample data from a mission I had previously run and salvaged during the commercials while watching TV).

She did not run an hours worth of missions - she ran about half an hours worth - and then extrapolated that via math to get her ISK/Hr. Given the varied nature of mission rewards and the entirely hit or miss nature of salvaging - half an hour worth of missions really isn't enough to base anything on. If you've come up with half an hour of poor salvage - all you've done is multiply half an hour of poor salvage by two.

That's what I hate about bean counters ... as I've seen people do that **** IRL ...

Now - that said - if she'd run a hundred hours worth of missions - the salvage total might have been worse. I can't know what her results would be - I only know what my experience tells me about what I've done.

Also the mission time starts when you accept the mission - not when you start firing your weapons.

But here - you see - is exactly the point I was making about there being no ISK/Hr. standard.

It's like my salvage sales. If I save up a few dozen Tritanium Alloy Bars - then fly 8 jumps to get the best price on them - and I do that a week after I ran the missions that earned them - how the hell do I calculate that - especially if I put up a sell order and the money dribbles in over time?


Now ... as to her reference to experience ...

My oldest character is 4 years 1 month and 1 day old.

More over ... because of the goals I have in this game and the way I play - I have brought up well over a dozen new characters. Now - this isn't a road to riches ... because all of them cost - but I have reasons for them, one of which - was a desire to play all the factions and see what all their ships and space were like.

So ... I've done this before - a lot. That's why, for one thing, I know there's a difference in salvage between the different areas.

And - I'm not saying that someones salvage is going to always be greater than their mission rewards. All I'm saying - is that it can be a substantial part of a new players income.

AS I SAID - if you don't need the money - then you DON'T have to do it. If you're running lots of low level missions and when you are able to run better ships in higher level missions - and you have the money to pay for them - then it doesn't matter.

The problem there - is that if you have passed on your opportunity to salvage your early missions - and you do get to where you want to run a higher level mission - but don't have the money for the ships - then it's to late. You've already passed up the chance for that salvage - and are paying the opportunity cost for having done so.

It is your call.

You can after all - simply keep running those low level missions for their paltry rewards until you do have enough money - for not merely one battle cruiser - but the money to replace it if you lose it. That's what "Don't fly what you can't afford to lose means."

As you will see time and time again on these forums - old mission runners who have forgotten what it is like to NOT HAVE ANY MONEY - will tell you to just blitz through to level IV's ... though that may well NOT be what they did.

Again - make up your own mind.

.

Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
Posted - 2011.08.03 09:45:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
She did not run an hours worth of missions - she ran about half an hours worth - and then extrapolated that via math to get her ISK/Hr. Given the varied nature of mission rewards and the entirely hit or miss nature of salvaging - half an hour worth of missions really isn't enough to base anything on.


You ran one mission. ONE sodding mission. You got a very lucky drop and you're using this to support your golden salvage goose theory.

I'm going to re-run this in Angel space to see if your magical bars drop from basic frigate wrecks at the rate you claim.

Loforn
Posted - 2011.08.03 10:43:00 - [44]
 

I have to say, as a new player when you have under 5m isk, and are just working towards you first 10m. Salvaging is a nice bit of income to add to your missioning.

Yeah the money's not to great from level one's and twos. But newer players don't do them to grind standings, we do them because its all we can do. An armour plater or a trite bar every mission or so helps alot!

Van Upier
Posted - 2011.08.03 12:39:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
She did not run an hours worth of missions - she ran about half an hours worth - and then extrapolated that via math to get her ISK/Hr. Given the varied nature of mission rewards and the entirely hit or miss nature of salvaging - half an hour worth of missions really isn't enough to base anything on.


You ran one mission. ONE sodding mission. You got a very lucky drop and you're using this to support your golden salvage goose theory.

I'm going to re-run this in Angel space to see if your magical bars drop from basic frigate wrecks at the rate you claim.


I'm going to back Toshiro here. As a new player - I was running level one missions a couple of weeks ago, and level 2 missions since. IN level 1 missions, the total reward + time bonus + bounty was anywhere from 80k to 200k. I don't know what the looting brings since I basically just reprocessed it all and stockpiled the minerals, but Salvaging took a few minutes, and usually yielded 2 to 4 times as much ISK as the rest. Tripped power circuits at 75k each, burned logic circuit at 17k each, ward console around 50k, and even more if I got the rarer alloyed tritanium bars or armor plates.

So in my recent experience, even if it doubles the time per mission, salvaging in those low levels was definitely worth it in my case.

Reeper 2435
Posted - 2011.08.03 18:26:00 - [46]
 

Yep, and anyone that read my responses need read no further. Unless you have actually ran mining missions and know what they pay vs combat missions then those individuals have no basis of knowledge to speak about the subject and should not detract from the original posters inquiries. L4 mining missions can pay you the same as L4 combat missions upon LP conversion (isk isn't far off either sometimes.)

Yes, they are worth running. Enjoy your game.

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk

No, this thread was about MINING MISSIONS, not MINING IN MISSIONS. What the hell is wrong with you people?
.......

Then ... the thread got jacked by the ongoing feud between Lady Go and myself ... which is unfortunate but ... *shrug* ...

.

Reeper 2435
Posted - 2011.08.03 18:30:00 - [47]
 

Edited by: Reeper 2435 on 03/08/2011 18:32:56
remove post please.

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.08.04 05:43:00 - [48]
 

Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 04/08/2011 14:13:05



In response to Lady Go's post ...

As I said:

Quote:


...

I will make one comment however on her methodology (not to compare the data we've posted - since what she did was a test and what I did was just post sample data from a mission I had previously run and salvaged during the commercials while watching TV).

...


And - I'm not saying that someones salvage is going to always be greater than their mission rewards. All I'm saying - is that it can be a substantial part of a new players income.





I was NOT making any pretense that I had run a test - I was merely reporting the results of the last mission I ran. Sorry ... but I'm just not able to spend the time on this game right now to actually run a test ... Part of the problem there is that I know what a real test is - and I don't have the time or inclination to do one.

When I said earlier - that you needed to run like a hundred missions - I was not exaggerating - and that's just for a simplistic test. Given the wide range of missions you could get and the random nature of salvage you need a large number of missions to expect an accurate representation of what they might yield.

I have put a little thought into what it would take to do a really thorough test of Salvaging in all areas of EVE ... but no one is going to do that. Let's just say you'd need 36 characters (3 ea. at each of the schools) to start ... If anyone was really interested in what a test like that would take and the reasons for the methodology I could elaborate but ... it's only of academic value since ... no one is going to do that. I sure as hell am not.


I have however (using a number of different characters) run hundreds of low level missions in Amarr, Gallente and Caldari space which I have salvaged so I've got an idea of what that salvage yields. Minmatar Space and the glorious Alloyed Tritanium Bars - have been a very pleasant surprise. I knew they were down here ... but ... this has just been great.

No - I don't always get 3 of them per mission - but the point was that salvaging was worth while. Even one would be worth while.

With one of my goals in the game being to just operate in each factions space ... using their ships and working for their agents ... just to see what it's like - I'm finally doing that in Minmatar Space and that Angel Salvage has been really good.

I created the character I'm using for that reason, to try out the NPE and to see what it was like to bring up a character as just a mission runner. Most of my other characters were only running missions for standings. I fudged some early on and did a little mining to get started (and also ran another character down to provide hauler support when the account was still on trial) but now I've got the account activated ... got my mission Thrasher and my Salvager Thrasher and the character's pretty much on her own. One of the things I was checking - was how well mission running compared to mining at this stage - and so far it sucks ... *shrug* but I'll continue on with this little project ... just ... not so much right now.

I've got stuff going in IRL - and RL > EVE. Sorry ... but that's just the way it is ... I wish it wasn't ... I'd vastly prefer to be playing computer games but *shrug* so it goes ...



Lady Go - please do come on down and see what that Angel Salvage is like. If you've got the RL time to spend doing a real test that would be cool - and I'd like to see your results. Just - don't use math to extrapolate - run the test and report the results.

Just be aware ... that if you get a Gallente Agent - they may send you on some anti-Caldari missions - and that Salvage sucks just as much as it ever has. Between Gallente/Serpentis and Caldari/Gurista's ... I'm not sure which is worse but they're both pretty bad. For Amarr Salvage the Capacitor Console salvage is the stuff to look for. With Angels - it's those ATB's ... so far ... I think Angels is the best.

*shrug*


.

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.08.04 06:07:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Reeper 2435
Yep, and anyone that read my responses need read no further. Unless you have actually ran mining missions and know what they pay vs combat missions then those individuals have no basis of knowledge to speak about the subject and should not detract from the original posters inquiries. L4 mining missions can pay you the same as L4 combat missions upon LP conversion (isk isn't far off either sometimes.)

Yes, they are worth running. Enjoy your game.

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk

No, this thread was about MINING MISSIONS, not MINING IN MISSIONS. What the hell is wrong with you people?
.......

Then ... the thread got jacked by the ongoing feud between Lady Go and myself ... which is unfortunate but ... *shrug* ...

.




*shrug*

Threads get jacked ... not good but ... it happens all the time ...

*shrug*


But - as I said - what the OP was really looking to do if you read his post - was do some mining in mission space - and thought that that's what mining mission were - which they are not.

You are correct in saying that they are really combat missions where the mission object is obtained by mining.


For me - I stopped trying to run them in my miners. I've got really good drone skills but ... I use Covetors a lot since they're cheaper and ... their tank sucks. It's slower but I just start with a combat ship and kill the rats ... OR ... bring a buddy in a combat ship to deal with them. I then mine the mission objects, salvage the wrecks and go home.

*shrug*

.

Reeper 2435
Posted - 2011.08.04 14:33:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk

But - as I said - what the OP was really looking to do if you read his post - was do some mining in mission space - and thought that that's what mining mission were - which they are not.


I did read his post, i brought it back full circle for you to read. I think i see why LG and you butt heads. But i must say, LG has more valid points.

Originally by: Van Zardas
hi all,
i started a new char mainly to mine with it (to rest from pve missions and salvage;P) and i have a question: are mining missions really an option to look on it, or as a miner just mine and don't do any missions?


All the man/woman wanted to know is whether it was mor profitable to simply mine asteroids for isk or if mission running was a viable isk making enterprise. I think you read way to many statements into things, or perhaps i read way to fewQuestion

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.08.05 14:49:00 - [51]
 

Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 05/08/2011 14:54:23


Reeper,

Well we'd have to get a clarification from the OP as to exactly what he meant ... and he may well have abandoned this thread long ago ...


The title of the thread is "Mining Missions vs. Mining"

Now ... he could have meant two things by that:

1) Is Mining Mission Space something he should be doing as opposed to mining just in the belts.

2) Is running Mining Missions something he should be doing as opposed to mining just in the belts.

Now - given that he states he wants his new character to "mine with it (to rest from pve missions and salvage:P)" that would indicate that he is making a distinction between PVE Missions and Mining Missions. So I am assuming that by PVE Missions he means Security Missions. Thus - he seems to be asking if he should try running Mining Missions - which is a specific class of missions the way Security Missions are a specific class of mission.


As I've tried to explain, a lot of new people think that Mining Missions involve mining ore that they can use. When they try it they find out that the only mining involved is of Mission Object Ore - which is useless for any other purpose than turning over to your agent - who is going to take it all any way. So - what I tried to do with my initial post on the subject - was point out - that IF what he wanted to do was to run missions that had useable ore in them to mine - that it was really the Security Missions - NOT the Mining Missions - that actually might have useable ore in them.


Maybe if the OP is still reading this ... he can clarify the point - but that is the basis on which I replied.



Now ... as to Lady Go & I - what we are arguing about - is whether salvaging low level missions is a useful activity - for ANYONE.

My position - is that it IS useful for some people depending on their circumstances - and that they should be left to make up their own minds as to whether or not it is useful for them.

Her position - is that it is useful for NO ONE.


Now ... each of us is entitled to our own opinion - but one thing you should watch - is that Lady Go's method of argument - is to set up a Straw Man argument - where she twists other peoples words - in fact rewriting them - to say something they did not in fact say. She does this routinely and to the point where - if she'd twist my words to make them sound absurd - then wouldn't she just flat lie? She has certainly skewed her results to make her point seem correct.

So ... Lady Go has made very few correct points - in that most of what she has done - was attack me - rather than state her own position. I have only attacked her (other than calling her names) to point out what she was doing.

*shrug*

Believe who you like.


Lastly, I'll point out that playing time makes a difference in whether salvaging low level missions is worth while.

If your goal is to reach the point where you can afford to fly battle cruisers at the same time that you have the skills to fly them and access to Level III Agents:

1) If you play multiple hours a day - then you can just run lots of low level missions - and even if they pay poorly - still accumulate enough money.

2) If you average less than several hours a day - then your going to need something besides those mission rewards or you'll be a long way from flying a battle cruiser by the time you could use one.

One of the things Lady Go accuses me of is making up a fantasy about, NOT losing any mission running time by salvaging all my missions AFTER I have finished running them for the day.

If I was going to play for more than 2 hours a day - then my wrecks would expire if I didn't stop running missions to salvage them but at less than 2 hours a day - they won't expire - so I don't have to interrupt any mission running to salvage. Labeling that a fantasy - is a lie.

Grouping your salvaging is the best way to salvage and makes a lot of difference as to whether or not it is worth while. Attacking that - is pure distortion.


*shrug*

.

Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
Posted - 2011.08.05 16:44:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
One of the things Lady Go accuses me of is making up a fantasy about, NOT losing any mission running time by salvaging all my missions AFTER I have finished running them for the day.


Well, ****. You were actually doing alright up to that point.

In your specific example, where the number of missions is finite, then post-hoc salvaging is always going to earn you more ISK. I never disputed that. I pointed out the fact that carrying the assumption that "salvaging doesn't take any time out from mission running" and equating it to the broader sense of "ISK/hr salvaging vs. mission running" is a poor fallacy.

Anyway, I won't comment further until I have tried this in Minmatar space. It is *possible* that the specific example of level one missions with angel wrecks breaks the general trend of salvage being a poorer ISK/hr activity than mission blitzing.

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.08.06 14:48:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
One of the things Lady Go accuses me of is making up a fantasy about, NOT losing any mission running time by salvaging all my missions AFTER I have finished running them for the day.


...

In your specific example, where the number of missions is finite, then post-hoc salvaging is always going to earn you more ISK. I never disputed that. I pointed out the fact that carrying the assumption that "salvaging doesn't take any time out from mission running" and equating it to the broader sense of "ISK/hr salvaging vs. mission running" is a poor fallacy.





Except this is what you really said and this is how you chose to say it:


Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
If I'm done for the day and decide to go 7 jumps over to salvage some wrecks ... all I've done was EXTEND my playing time to go get those wrecks.




"I'm just going to keep claiming salvaging takes no time at all, due to my own ******ed sense of time"


Originally by: Lady Go Diveher

...

YOU keep saying it IS worth it. Based on **** all evidence, and your insane twisted logic. "Salvaging takes no time, trolololol"



Originally by: Lady Go Diveher


...

Toshiro repeatedly claims it takes him NO TIME to do it, and therefore it is free ISK.
No time, because he simply chooses not to count this time. Convenient, eh?

It's magic!



This is what I actually said:

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk

Now ... Salvaging and Looting Level I & II missions - DOES substantially add to the money you get for those missions - and if you do it right - doesn't add that much more time. You run all your missions, bookmarking a wreck in each zone then - when you're all done running missions - you come back and salvage them all. The wrecks last 2 hours. Sort the bookmarks in your people and places by date and take the oldest first. Warp from wreck field to wreck field and you should have them all salvaged and looted in a fairly short amount of time.




What I have ALWAYS said was the way to salvage - was to save your wrecks and salvage them all at the same time. IF you do that when you're DONE running missions - then you have taken ZERO time away from your mission running - BECAUSE YOU WERE DONE RUNNING MISSIONS before you started salvaging.

You ALWAYS DISPUTED THAT.


You see - that's the problem I have with you. You lie.

Originally by: Lady Go Diveher

I pointed out the fact that carrying the assumption that "salvaging doesn't take any time out from mission running" and equating it to the broader sense of "ISK/hr salvaging vs. mission running" is a poor fallacy.



Show me the quote where you said that.

And ... actually you're wrong there too.

The ISK/Hr. going around Salvaging other peoples Angels Wrecks - is certainly better than the ISK/Hr. running Level I missions and may well be for wrecks in Amarr space as well (though I doubt that). But - that doesn't mean it isn't worth doing. Here though we're talking about Ratting rather than Mission Running where ratting is only more preferable if you have time constraints and don't want to commit to a mission.

But - if you are just talking about "salvaging" vs. Blitzing Low Level Missions - then Ninja Salvaging Level IV's is one hell of a lot more lucrative. It just gains you no standings - so it's a question of profit vs. progression.




Originally by: Lady Go Diveher

Anyway, I won't comment further until I have tried this in Minmatar space. It is *possible* that the specific example of level one missions with angel wrecks breaks the general trend of salvage being a poorer ISK/hr activity than mission blitzing.



It's also "possible" that if you had run more than a half hours worth of missions in Amarr space you'd have gotten some more Melted Capacitor Consoles and Armor Plates - and gotten a better salvage sample.


.

Kraven Stark
Caldari
Atavism Industries
Posted - 2011.08.06 15:35:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk


What I have ALWAYS said was the way to salvage - was to save your wrecks and salvage them all at the same time. IF you do that when you're DONE running missions - then you have taken ZERO time away from your mission running - BECAUSE YOU WERE DONE RUNNING MISSIONS before you started salvaging.

You ALWAYS DISPUTED THAT.



Well that just isn't true. You are taking time away from your mission running because in the time it takes to salvage that one mission's worth of salvage, you could have run another mission.

Time doesn't stop when your Journal icon starts blinking.

Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
Posted - 2011.08.06 18:20:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: Kraven Stark
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk


What I have ALWAYS said was the way to salvage - was to save your wrecks and salvage them all at the same time. IF you do that when you're DONE running missions - then you have taken ZERO time away from your mission running - BECAUSE YOU WERE DONE RUNNING MISSIONS before you started salvaging.

You ALWAYS DISPUTED THAT.


Well that just isn't true. You are taking time away from your mission running because in the time it takes to salvage that one mission's worth of salvage, you could have run another mission.

Time doesn't stop when your Journal icon starts blinking.


Dude. You aren't listening to him. It doesn't take any time away from missioning, because he wouldn't have ran a mission anyway!

Can't you see how logical that is?

As it stands, I have ran 16 level one missions in Angel space and got one... ONE ****ing alloyed tritanium bar, and a whole **** load of completely worthless **** from the salvage. It's possibly better ISK/hr than elsewhere, but it is marginal at best. Your fantasy of getting several per mission just doesn't add up.

I implore other people to test this, too.

Nor Tzestu
Amarr
Boxwater Intelligence
Posted - 2011.08.06 22:13:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
Originally by: Kraven Stark
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk


What I have ALWAYS said was the way to salvage - was to save your wrecks and salvage them all at the same time. IF you do that when you're DONE running missions - then you have taken ZERO time away from your mission running - BECAUSE YOU WERE DONE RUNNING MISSIONS before you started salvaging.

You ALWAYS DISPUTED THAT.


Well that just isn't true. You are taking time away from your mission running because in the time it takes to salvage that one mission's worth of salvage, you could have run another mission.

Time doesn't stop when your Journal icon starts blinking.


Dude. You aren't listening to him. It doesn't take any time away from missioning, because he wouldn't have ran a mission anyway!

Can't you see how logical that is?

As it stands, I have ran 16 level one missions in Angel space and got one... ONE ****ing alloyed tritanium bar, and a whole **** load of completely worthless **** from the salvage. It's possibly better ISK/hr than elsewhere, but it is marginal at best. Your fantasy of getting several per mission just doesn't add up.

I implore other people to test this, too.


In the past 2 days I have been running missions for the Corporate Police Force in Caldari space. In that time I have run over 35 missions. During those missions I have made 2,456,00 in cash from agents for completion and time benefit. In those missions I have made 569,000 in bounties. In those missions I have pulled 2 trit bars(250k) and 1 (200k) armor plate. That said I have also pulled 59 tripped power circuits (4.2mil), 48 burned logic circuits (750k) and roughly 1.5mil in minerals from drone missions not to mention another 200k in various other salvage parts. Tags are more or less worthless in the numbers I get them as I skip faction killing missions. All of these missions are from a single agent and done with a full tech 2 fitted Punisher with a salvager 1 fitted. Salvaging skill at 2. All prices are current in system prices, not moving them to find highest profits etc. At the rate I am pulling salvage and the current prices I would need to double the amount of missions I do to cover the lost isk in salvage and loot. My average mission times for killing are 6 and a half minutes. Average salvage time is almost 9 minutes. For me and my ship/fit I currently make more isk salvaging than I do on actual missions. Obviously being in an amarr boat and facing a majority of guristas is not the most efficient method to test this, though I have been using faction MF crystals to try to make it as fast as possible. Unless I can get the average killing time down to 4 to 4 1/2 minutes then I shall continue salvaging. I think with my skills and being a full tech 2 fit with a faction AB that it won't be possible with an Amarr turret based boat.

Chimera Ur
Nibado Inc
Posted - 2011.08.08 12:03:00 - [57]
 

Edited by: Chimera Ur on 08/08/2011 12:06:09
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
What I have ALWAYS said was the way to salvage - was to save your wrecks and salvage them all at the same time. IF you do that when you're DONE running missions - then you have taken ZERO time away from your mission running - BECAUSE YOU WERE DONE RUNNING MISSIONS before you started salvaging.


I don't get this, sorry.

Let's say you have one evening to play Eve, 4 hours total. In that time, you would like to make as much money as possible right? Since clearing out level 1 missions takes lets say 15 minutens, this means you would be able to chain 4x4 = 16 missions back to back. Or you could, in your example, get your salvager out to salvage stuff every 3rd mission. You claim it takes you 1/3rd of the time, so that's 15 minutes to clear 3 mission sites.

Lado Go says: run 16 missions, that makes most money.
You say: run 12 missions and salvage all 12 in chunks of 3, that makes most money.

The problem is that your salvage income example is based on a VERY lucky salvage find. I recently played some missions on my salvage alt (my main account wasn't active). I would run a few missions in a kestrel, shoot stuff to bits, and then after a few missiosn clear the mission sites in a destroyer. After a while I just stopped salvaging. Why? I didn't get anything useful and it simply was more efficient to run missions back to back. Income from rewards and bounties (very big part of mission income!) was way WAY higher than what I could get with salvaging using my destroyer.

Originally by: Nor Tzestu

In the past 2 days I have been running missions for the Corporate Police Force in Caldari space. In that time I have run over 35 missions. During those missions I have made 2,456,00 in cash from agents for completion and time benefit. In those missions I have made 569,000 in bounties. In those missions I have pulled 2 trit bars(250k) and 1 (200k) armor plate. That said I have also pulled 59 tripped power circuits (4.2mil), 48 burned logic circuits (750k) and roughly 1.5mil in minerals from drone missions not to mention another 200k in various other salvage parts. Tags are more or less worthless in the numbers I get them as I skip faction killing missions. All of these missions are from a single agent and done with a full tech 2 fitted Punisher with a salvager 1 fitted. Salvaging skill at 2. All prices are current in system prices, not moving them to find highest profits etc. At the rate I am pulling salvage and the current prices I would need to double the amount of missions I do to cover the lost isk in salvage and loot. My average mission times for killing are 6 and a half minutes. Average salvage time is almost 9 minutes. For me and my ship/fit I currently make more isk salvaging than I do on actual missions. Obviously being in an amarr boat and facing a majority of guristas is not the most efficient method to test this, though I have been using faction MF crystals to try to make it as fast as possible. Unless I can get the average killing time down to 4 to 4 1/2 minutes then I shall continue salvaging. I think with my skills and being a full tech 2 fit with a faction AB that it won't be possible with an Amarr turret based boat.


Did you also loot the wrecks or did you just gather the salvage. I always loot them too, so you often end up with a full cargo after a single missions.

Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
Posted - 2011.08.08 12:10:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Nor Tzestu
My average mission times for killing are 6 and a half minutes. Average salvage time is almost 9 minutes


What this tells me, is you need to ship up to the Coercer. Gank fit with beams. It will take you roughly 2 minutes of being in the mission space to complete, some less.

Boom - suddenly you're making more by blitzing.

Nor Tzestu
Amarr
Boxwater Intelligence
Posted - 2011.08.08 16:15:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
Originally by: Nor Tzestu
My average mission times for killing are 6 and a half minutes. Average salvage time is almost 9 minutes


What this tells me, is you need to ship up to the Coercer. Gank fit with beams. It will take you roughly 2 minutes of being in the mission space to complete, some less.

Boom - suddenly you're making more by blitzing.
What this tells me is your guessing at best. I am still recording everything till i have 100 missions done. Then on to level twos in a more appropriate guristas killing

Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
Posted - 2011.08.08 17:09:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Nor Tzestu
Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
Originally by: Nor Tzestu
My average mission times for killing are 6 and a half minutes. Average salvage time is almost 9 minutes


What this tells me, is you need to ship up to the Coercer. Gank fit with beams. It will take you roughly 2 minutes of being in the mission space to complete, some less.

Boom - suddenly you're making more by blitzing.
What this tells me is your guessing at best. I am still recording everything till i have 100 missions done. Then on to level twos in a more appropriate guristas killing


Maxed gunnery skills in a punisher will run you for about 80dps with little range.
Maxed gunnery skills in a coercer will let you alpha a rat every 3-4 seconds.

It's not a guess, you're just doing it wrong.


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