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Van Zardas
Posted - 2011.07.28 07:49:00 - [1]
 

hi all,
i started a new char mainly to mine with it (to rest from pve missions and salvage;P) and i have a question: are mining missions really an option to look on it, or as a miner just mine and don't do any missions?

Louis deGuerre
Gallente
Malevolence.
Posted - 2011.07.28 08:27:00 - [2]
 

Just mine, but you probably want to do missions to get standing with the corporation that owns your favourite refining station so you get tax cuts.

Van Zardas
Posted - 2011.07.28 08:37:00 - [3]
 

thx for this, i was curious why there are mining missions if normal mining gives more cash ;)

Etherials
Gallente
StarFox Enterprises
The Lucian Alliance.
Posted - 2011.07.28 08:47:00 - [4]
 

It's difficult to say tbh, I would suggest looking into mining missions to raise your standing to begin with, with low standings any faction will take aprox 50% (at aprox 5.0 standing the faction will take under .5%) so raising standings as a miner is a must.

However by the sounds of it you have created this char to get away from running missions so having to go back may feel like a backwards step.

Mining missions only tend to have the exact ammount of ore that the agent requires so can feel a bit tedious when your only sitting there to pull in that exact ammount.

I would suggest looking at what the mission requires (3000 units of veldspar for example) and mine it from regular sites if you can (Depending on the roids available in your local systems).
That way you should be getting more ore than the agent wants so the excess over time can be used to instantly compleate a mission.
Or you may wish to just go out and mine then take a mission once you have some ore stockpiled.

What ship / fitting are you using for your mining?
Is one of your alt's hauling or are you jetcan mining?

You may also want to look into indy corporations that have orca support so you can get more ore faster and maybe have the option of a corp member refining the ore for you.

If your interested Starfox is primarily an Indy PVE corp operating in the Heimetar region around Rens, We have Orca boosting available and run LVL4 missions as well as having BPO's for various ships, ammo and other modules. Message me ingame if your interested.

Kesshisan
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.28 08:59:00 - [5]
 

You are less likely to run into can flippers in mission space than in asteroid belts. If you wanted to mine for profit, you can do the following:

Outfit a mission ship.
Get some Security missions.
Clear out all of the NPCs.
Mine into a jetcan.

If you mine in mission space you can mine into a jetcan and I doubt you will ever see a player try to can flip you there. However, this does require some shooty skills that are not always helpful to a miner.

Alternatively you could try to work something out with mission runners in your local area. Often times missions areas have lots of asteroids that mission runners won't mine.

But if you already have the shooty skills, just mine from your own missions.

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.07.28 09:43:00 - [6]
 


Just to cover all the bases ...


1) Mining missions were probably thought up because CCP thought that miners should have missions where they could mine to do the mission ... that's all that makes sense to me. For the most part - you not only are provided only the amount of ore to complete the mission - which they take - but it is of no use anyway. There are a number of "mission ores" that you won't see on the market that exist solely to serve as mission requirements - but which are otherwise worthless.

2) Security Missions often have normal asteroids in them. THESE are the missions you want to run if you want to mine for profit in mission space.

3) If you've got any skill at all you should be able to complete Level I missions in a destroyer. Just kite the rats and you'll be fine. Once you kill all the rats secure the mission object if there is one, take it back to the station where you can get in your salvager if you have one. Loot and salvage the mission. Then get in your miner and mine into jet cans. Jetcans and wrecks last two hours. Label the jet can with the time so you'll know how old it is. If it starts getting old you can jettison something to create a new one and as long as the two jet cans are within 2500 meters you can swap things between them. Bookmark the jet cans. If you bookmark a jet can that subsequently is replaced - that doesn't matter - the bookmark just records the position so it will still take you to the same spot years from now. Once you've got your fill of mining or exhausted the field go back to the station and turn your mission in. At that point - all the acceleration gates will go away - and you can warp directly to the jet cans in your industrial. Fit a tractor beam on it and you can pull in any other jet cans that are within 20km. Now - if you are mining with someone else - as long as someone stays in the mission space - it will continue to exist after you turn it in. This lets you turn in the mission, get the mission reward and continue mining. However you can forgo the mission completion bonus and milk that mission space for a week. It should respawn the mission every day after down time.

.

Kraven Stark
Caldari
Atavism Industries
Posted - 2011.07.28 13:27:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk

3) If you've got any skill at all you should be able to complete Level I missions in a destroyer. Just kite the rats and you'll be fine. Once you kill all the rats secure the mission object if there is one, take it back to the station where you can get in your salvager if you have one. Loot and salvage the mission.

.


Please do not advise people to salvage in mission that are lvl I or II. It is a fantastic waste of time. You'll make more money in local selling sexual favors and have more dignity by the time you are done.

Reeper 2435
Posted - 2011.07.28 13:35:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Reeper 2435 on 28/07/2011 13:36:32
It seems to me none of you have ever run a mining mission. They are prehaps the most fun missions i've run. When i lived in NPC 0.0 i ran them from time to time (L4s) and i can tell you that you aren't simply going to warp in and mine the Mission Ore (they cannot be reprocessed and are never your common ores) without a struggle generally.

You will definately need good defensive skills and know how to shake aggro off your drones. And yes, there are frigs that will scram you from time to time so if your drones die... enjoy your self destruct sequence or you'd better have an alternative such as a corp mate to get you free.

Kudos to CCP for some of the most fun missions i've ever run.

P.S. IF you can't tank a battleship rat in your Hulk, stay the heck out of the L4 mining missions.

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.07.28 18:35:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Kraven Stark
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk

3) If you've got any skill at all you should be able to complete Level I missions in a destroyer. Just kite the rats and you'll be fine. Once you kill all the rats secure the mission object if there is one, take it back to the station where you can get in your salvager if you have one. Loot and salvage the mission.

.


Please do not advise people to salvage in mission that are lvl I or II. It is a fantastic waste of time. You'll make more money in local selling sexual favors and have more dignity by the time you are done.



Congratulations on being a brain dead moron.

IF someone is going to take the time to Mine the Mission space - which this discussion is all about - then savlaging and looting the wrecks too doesn't take that much more time.

IF someone is blitzing missions - where they might want to forgo looting/salvaging to get to be able to run an extra mission in the same amount of time - then they sure as hell aren't going to be mining it either.

Two completely separate reasons for running a mission.

One - is running the mission for the purpose of mining it. The other is trying to run as many missions as possible in the absolute shortest amount of time.


Think before you type.

Don't just see "salvaging/looting" and "Level I Missions" discussed together and automatically start spouting "Level I & II Salvage I worthless!".



Now ... Salvaging and Looting Level I & II missions - DOES substantially add to the money you get for those missions - and if you do it right - doesn't add that much more time. You run all your missions, bookmarking a wreck in each zone then - when you're all done running missions - you come back and salvage them all. The wrecks last 2 hours. Sort the bookmarks in your people and places by date and take the oldest first. Warp from wreck field to wreck field and you should have them all salvaged and looted in a fairly short amount of time.


The reason for NOT doing this - is because you don't need the extra money - and just want to gain standing as fast as you can. If you do need the money - then you are better off looting and salvaging.


People who just blitz their missions get skilled to fly Battle Cruisers before they can properly use them or afford to buy and fit them. You see them all the time. They're the ones in local begging for a few million because they put everything they had into a ship they weren't ready to fly - and then lost it.


What is the #1 rule of EVE? Don't fly what you can't afford to lose. The income from Level I and II missions without at least looting and salvaging isn't going to be enough to afford to lose a Battle Cruiser by the time you get to Level III's.


.

Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
Posted - 2011.07.28 18:47:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Kraven Stark
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk

3) If you've got any skill at all you should be able to complete Level I missions in a destroyer. Just kite the rats and you'll be fine. Once you kill all the rats secure the mission object if there is one, take it back to the station where you can get in your salvager if you have one. Loot and salvage the mission.

.


Please do not advise people to salvage in mission that are lvl I or II. It is a fantastic waste of time. You'll make more money in local selling sexual favors and have more dignity by the time you are done.


Careful, he'll acuse you of being my alt :P

Sadly, Toshiro is completely fixed in his ways and despite admitting he doesn't know how much he makes per hour salvaging, mining or mission running himself(to hard to work out, apparently), he STILL sits in this forum and advises players to utterly, utterly waste their time doing it.

You can completely discredit him and he will then come back with a MAXIMUM CHARACTER LIMIT post saying the same crap.

Just watch this space

/me points below

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.07.28 19:06:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
Originally by: Kraven Stark
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk

3) If you've got any skill at all you should be able to complete Level I missions in a destroyer. Just kite the rats and you'll be fine. Once you kill all the rats secure the mission object if there is one, take it back to the station where you can get in your salvager if you have one. Loot and salvage the mission.

.


Please do not advise people to salvage in mission that are lvl I or II. It is a fantastic waste of time. You'll make more money in local selling sexual favors and have more dignity by the time you are done.


Careful, he'll acuse you of being my alt :P

Sadly, Toshiro is completely fixed in his ways and despite admitting he doesn't know how much he makes per hour salvaging, mining or mission running himself(to hard to work out, apparently), he STILL sits in this forum and advises players to utterly, utterly waste their time doing it.

You can completely discredit him and he will then come back with a MAXIMUM CHARACTER LIMIT post saying the same crap.

Just watch this space

/me points below



Yes. Here we go again.

Well, at least this time, you are at last right about something. My first thought was that he was your alt but then I thought ... probably not.

Other than that - you're as full of **** as you always are.

You spout bull **** that just screws up new players - then - accuse me of wasting their time.

Are you going to pay for their ships when they get them blown up and don't have any money to buy new ones?

We've got threads on this page right now from players doing just what you advocate - and - losing ships because of it - and then - not having the money to pay for new ones.

I am advising new players to be cautious and take it slow - you are telling them that that is a waste of their time.

If they follow my advice - it takes them longer to get to the same place - if they follow your advice (and things go wrong) - they end up broke and with no ships.




Oh and in case you didn't read my last reply in that other thread ... you're assumptions about how much you make - are founded on bull ****.

You don't know exactly how much you make either - you just think you do.



.

Kraven Stark
Caldari
Atavism Industries
Posted - 2011.07.28 19:49:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
Originally by: Kraven Stark
Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk

3) If you've got any skill at all you should be able to complete Level I missions in a destroyer. Just kite the rats and you'll be fine. Once you kill all the rats secure the mission object if there is one, take it back to the station where you can get in your salvager if you have one. Loot and salvage the mission.

.


Please do not advise people to salvage in mission that are lvl I or II. It is a fantastic waste of time. You'll make more money in local selling sexual favors and have more dignity by the time you are done.



Congratulations on being a brain dead moron.

IF someone is going to take the time to Mine the Mission space - which this discussion is all about - then savlaging and looting the wrecks too doesn't take that much more time.

IF someone is blitzing missions - where they might want to forgo looting/salvaging to get to be able to run an extra mission in the same amount of time - then they sure as hell aren't going to be mining it either.

Two completely separate reasons for running a mission.

One - is running the mission for the purpose of mining it. The other is trying to run as many missions as possible in the absolute shortest amount of time.


Think before you type.

Don't just see "salvaging/looting" and "Level I Missions" discussed together and automatically start spouting "Level I & II Salvage I worthless!".



Now ... Salvaging and Looting Level I & II missions - DOES substantially add to the money you get for those missions - and if you do it right - doesn't add that much more time. You run all your missions, bookmarking a wreck in each zone then - when you're all done running missions - you come back and salvage them all. The wrecks last 2 hours. Sort the bookmarks in your people and places by date and take the oldest first. Warp from wreck field to wreck field and you should have them all salvaged and looted in a fairly short amount of time.


The reason for NOT doing this - is because you don't need the extra money - and just want to gain standing as fast as you can. If you do need the money - then you are better off looting and salvaging.


People who just blitz their missions get skilled to fly Battle Cruisers before they can properly use them or afford to buy and fit them. You see them all the time. They're the ones in local begging for a few million because they put everything they had into a ship they weren't ready to fly - and then lost it.


What is the #1 rule of EVE? Don't fly what you can't afford to lose. The income from Level I and II missions without at least looting and salvaging isn't going to be enough to afford to lose a Battle Cruiser by the time you get to Level III's.


.


If you do it right? /boggle

Also, I'm aware of what the discussion is about.

In any case, unless you have a tractor and a salvager on your ship along with a full allotment of miners and all the wrecks happen to be right around the roid you are breaking, it is not worth it to fly a separate ship out for the pittance you will get from any of the lvl 1 ships.



Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.07.28 20:08:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Kraven Stark


...

If you do it right? /boggle

Also, I'm aware of what the discussion is about.

In any case, unless you have a tractor and a salvager on your ship along with a full allotment of miners and all the wrecks happen to be right around the roid you are breaking, it is not worth it to fly a separate ship out for the pittance you will get from any of the lvl 1 ships.






There's two ways of doing this depending on how many wrecks we're talking about.

Wrecks created while running the mission. If there are a bunch of them it's faster to go back and get your salvaging destroyer. If not - fit a tractor and salvager on your industrial.

Any belt rats that come along after the missions over can be looted and salvaged by the industrial.

If you've got a hauler working with you while mining - then he can salvage the wrecks while you're mining - again depending on how many there are and how widely spread they are.


The real factor here in whether or not this is worth doing - is whether or not someone thinks it is worth doing. If they don't have a lot of money and want a little more - it's worth while.

EVERYTHING you get from Level I and II missions is pitiful - so sure it's not a lot but compared to your mission rewards it is.


The problem is - you have people such as yourself who deride those salvaging and looting their Level I missions - as if they're stupid. So ... not wanting some other player to think they're stupid ... some new players pass on this - without thinking for themselves - whether or not it's worth it to them.

They can try doing it - and if they don't like it - they can stop.

The thing is ... I have no belief what so ever - that anyone is going to go out there and do something they don't really want to do - just because I said to do it. If it's taking to long and they don't think it's worth their time - they will stop.

The problem with YOU and those like you - is that you tell people they're stupid if they do it - so they don't even try because they don't want to look stupid.


What is stupid - is blinding following anything anyone (including me) tells you to do on the forums.


You can warn people about the advantages and disadvantages of doing something - but then they should make up their own minds.

Thus - smart ass comments from people who are in a big hurry - don't help.

.

Reeper 2435
Posted - 2011.07.28 20:24:00 - [14]
 

Stop kicking sand out of my sandbox and play nice. I almost got a splinter in my behind.

There is no right or wrong ways of doing anything in eve. There are only efficient and inefficient ways. I advise most new players to get a vexor or some drone boat type cruiser for L1-2 missions if they want to salvage it. The drones kill, and use the hi's for tractor and salvage. All we can do is guide the new player, it's up to them to observe us and question why we do what we do in order to obtain greater efficiency. I've instructed new players who excelled, and those that were just stone stupid and couldn't succede if you did it for tthem.

Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
Posted - 2011.07.29 09:16:00 - [15]
 

Dear Toshiro,

I'm just going to state this again, because there's a risk someone might actually listen to you.

You will make more ISK running the next mission than you will salvaging the current one.

I haven't a ****ing clue what you're talking about in terms of ship losses, the simple fact is this: at low level missions, the loot and salvage is worth less per minute of salvaging time than it is per minute of shooting time.

It. Just. Is.

Quote:
Oh and in case you didn't read my last reply in that other thread ... you're assumptions about how much you make - are founded on bull ****. You don't know exactly how much you make either - you just think you do.


I do, so do most people. But thanks for confirming you're clueless Wink

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.07.30 11:16:00 - [16]
 


Lady Go,

Since you don't salvage low level missions - you don't know what you're talking about. Since I play new characters that I'm bringing up without a lot of help from my more advanced ones - specifically to see what it's like (since things change) - I do know what I'm talking about. I don't have to count every little isk - I can tell how valuable the time I spend salvaging is by the relatively large chunk of money I get for it - compared to the time I spend running low level missions.

As to your not understanding what I'm talking about in regards to new players losing ships because they are flying them before they are ready and then not having the money to replace them - no - I'm not surprised that you don't understand what I'm talking about.

You consistently assume that everyone is playing under the same conditions and that there is ONE right way to do things - when that simply isn't the case. This isn't in regards to salvaging - it is in regards to everything. That's just the way you are.

This is simplistic.

ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group
The Veerhouven Group
Posted - 2011.07.30 12:19:00 - [17]
 

Salvaging provides the materials that are used for building rigs. The salvaged modules themselves often sell for next to nothing, but, when converted into a rig, you can make quite a bit of ISK from them.

Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
Posted - 2011.08.01 10:16:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
Since you don't salvage low level missions - you don't know what you're talking about


Oh, but I have. And I do. Very recently too.

Quote:
Since I play new characters that I'm bringing up without a lot of help from my more advanced ones - specifically to see what it's like (since things change)


I've done this as recently as Incarna 1.0 to test out the NPE.

Quote:
I do know what I'm talking about. I don't have to count every little isk - I can tell how valuable the time I spend salvaging is by the relatively large chunk of money I get for it - compared to the time I spend running low level missions.


This is flat out wrong. I really don't care what you think - sit down, work it out, then come back to me. Just shut the **** UP about your ridiculous ****ing statements until you've actually worked it out .. instead of claiming "you can't" or "it's not that simple" or "I don't need to work it out, but.." or "it doesn't take ANY time as I wouldn't have run a mission then anyway.."

JUST WORK IT THE **** OUT YOU SLACK BRAINED ******.

Because then you'll see I'm right.
Because then you'll see that everyone else who recommends the same thing is right, and your magical pixie dust is all in your head.

Buy a clue.

ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group
The Veerhouven Group
Posted - 2011.08.01 11:11:00 - [19]
 

I'm sorry, but you are the one who is mistaken. We are not responsible for the fact that you don't know what to do with the salvage.

Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
Posted - 2011.08.01 12:37:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: ACY GTMI
I'm sorry, but you are the one who is mistaken. We are not responsible for the fact that you don't know what to do with the salvage.


The salvage I salvage is free, right? Rolling EyesRolling EyesRolling Eyes

The fact that you can use the salvage in an entirely separate industry profession, as a raw material, has nothing to do with the ISK/hr of collecting the salvage in the first place. In the same manner that you can't take minerals as being free.. /headdesk

I'm amazed that you can be so exclusively carebear, and yet so utterly incompetent at that task.

Here, all of you go read about opportunity cost and then come back here and sound less ******ed.

kthxbai

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.08.01 13:50:00 - [21]
 

Lady Go,

First off ... I don't believe you've done any of that. You're just parroting what I said earlier. You're a troll and that's what trolls do. You troll me ... you troll EVE University ... you troll RvB ... you troll everyone who disagrees with you ... Someone (not me) makes a mistake in one thing out of several that they've said - and you're all "No one ever listen to this person again!" Who the hell are you to say anything to anyone. You're just an opinionated ass.


If you've really kept track of all that - lets see your work product. Lets see how many times you added it up. Lets see your figures. Instead of you demanding I do something I don't need to do - how about you showing us the things you already claim to have done?

Of course ... if you actually came up with some - I'd believe you made them up - since that's what trolls do.

You want me to work it out - when it is a waste of time - so I don't do it that way. There's to much to keep track of to get an accurate number and it takes to many missions to average out.

If you've tracked under a hundred missions - your average is probably off. If you've tracked under a hundred people - your survey is meaningless.

Do you track data on EVERY SINGLE MISSION YOU RUN? Are you really stupid enough to do that?


How do you account for decisions on whether to salvage or not?

That's a judgement call made every mission. If some agent sends you five or six jumps over - then it may not be worth the trouble for just a few wrecks. That is entirely up to the individual whether they feel it's worth while - which is my entire point. If I'm done for the day and decide to go 7 jumps over to salvage some wrecks ... all I've done was EXTEND my playing time to go get those wrecks. That's a decision I made. If I was basing my decisions off of some average and didn't want to blow the average then - it would be foolish to include them. But if I just decide to play the game a little longer - instead of going to bed or watching TV ... what difference does it make? "Oh my God! I can't fly over there and salvage those wrecks - even if I'm not going to run any more missions - it would blow my ISK/Hr. Average!!!"

Screw that. I'll do it if I feel like doing it. Maybe by flying over there ... I'll see something new. Have you ever done that? Just fly around to see what's there?


I'll tell you what's a myth. ISK/Hr. is a ****ing myth.

There is no standard for what ISK/Hr. is - and no ... you can't establish one ... even if someone who wasn't an opinionated ass came up with one ... no one would stick to it. There are as many definitions of ISK/Hr. - as there are people using the phrase.

As I said before - if someone wants to use calculations for their own benefit - that's fine. They can track things over time if they are relatively consistent in the way they do things. But - any attempt go compare the figures for one person with another are going to be bogus - because their methodology is going to be different.


You see - the difference between you and me - is that I was a professional tester for a number of years and I know how to set up a real test. I also know what bull **** is when someone's blathering it - and what is far more trouble to track than it's worth.


You keep blathering on about how I don't have proof of what I say and that I'm telling people to waste their time. Well ... spending a bunch of time trying to calculate a multivariable result by people who don't even know what all the variables are - is a gigantic waste of time. How many missions could they run in the time they're tracking all those numbers? Are you really advocating that everyone use a spread sheet on their missions? Do you do that?

No ... I imagine not ... because you see - you are stupid enough to think it's all simple - when it isn't. You don't even think that travel time counts. How ****ing absurd is that?

.

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.08.01 14:11:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
Originally by: ACY GTMI
I'm sorry, but you are the one who is mistaken. We are not responsible for the fact that you don't know what to do with the salvage.


The salvage I salvage is free, right? Rolling EyesRolling EyesRolling Eyes

The fact that you can use the salvage in an entirely separate industry profession, as a raw material, has nothing to do with the ISK/hr of collecting the salvage in the first place. In the same manner that you can't take minerals as being free.. /headdesk

I'm amazed that you can be so exclusively carebear, and yet so utterly incompetent at that task.

Here, all of you go read about opportunity cost and then come back here and sound less ******ed.

kthxbai




What's the opportunity cost of spending your time tracking useless data?



And - where the hell did they say anything about the salvage being Free?

You're either a knee jerk moron or a troll. I'm going with troll ... although I'd support knee jerk moron AND troll.



But if you're going to troll at least be consistent.

Ha! Ha! So ... the time spent collecting the salvage has nothing to do with the cost of producing the product?

Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha! Ha!

You ****ing moron.



Oh ... and ... just to make a point - the wrecks are free and so are the asteroids.

If you don't know why - then you're just another knee jerk moron who THINKS they have a clue but it just spouting the conventional wisdom of all those who don't have a clue.


Whatever other costs are involved - if no one is charging you for the wrecks - or the asteroids - then they themselves are in fact free for the taking.


Now - as to the Opportunity costs associated with mining and salvaging - as opposed to other methods of obtaining your raw materials - the value of the time spent collecting them depends on what else you might have been able to do with that time - which - depends ENTIRELY on the individual doing the collecting.

Here - any other method of spending their time - which the individual doesn't consider more fun than what they want to do - is ****ing meaningless.

Missions may make more money - but if mining is fun - missions are meaningless.

Making your own stuff out of all the things you've gathered in yourself, mining or salvaging - may well give you a greater sense of satisfaction than just buying it - even if that was cheaper.

This is a GAME jack ass. What individual players do with their time - is up to them. What they are supposed to be doing - is having fun - even if they are losing money doing it.

Look at PVP.

Idiot.

.

Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
Posted - 2011.08.01 16:40:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Myself, in all my Glory, said:
I really don't care what you think - sit down, work it out, then come back to me. Just shut the **** UP about your ridiculous ****ing statements until you've actually worked it out


So, we get ...

Quote:
If you've really kept track of all that - lets see your work product. Lets see how many times you added it up. Lets see your figures. Instead of you demanding I do something I don't need to do - how about you showing us the things you already claim to have done? Of course ... if you actually came up with some - I'd believe you made them up - since that's what trolls do.


"Show me some figures, then I will assume you made them up. Oh, BTW, I can't do this myself"

Quote:
You want me to work it out - when it is a waste of time - so I don't do it that way


"I still haven't a ****ing clue what I am talking about, can't and won't work it out, yet I will repeatedly tell everyone else they are wrong"

Quote:
There's to much to keep track of to get an accurate number


"I am incapable of working out an average"

Quote:
How do you account for decisions on whether to salvage or not?


"I am incapable of working out a second average, and comparing it to the first"

Quote:
That's a judgement call made every mission


"I am incapable of working out an average, and extrapolating"

Quote:
If I'm done for the day and decide to go 7 jumps over to salvage some wrecks ... all I've done was EXTEND my playing time to go get those wrecks


"I'm just going to keep claiming salvaging takes no time at all, due to my own ******ed sense of time"

Quote:
I'll tell you what's a myth. ISK/Hr. is a ****ing myth.


"I still can't work out that ISK/hr is actually the mathematical fraction I would need to use alongside a calculator to calculate such a thing. Semantics escape me"

Quote:
You see - the difference between you and me - is that I was a professional tester for a number of years and I know how to set up a real test


Are you that guy who worked for Honda, then?

Quote:
Oh ... and ... just to make a point - the wrecks are free and so are the asteroids


Breathe.

HAH AHAH AHAHH AHAHH AHHAHAH AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH HAHAH HAH AHAH AHAHH AHAHH AHHAHAH AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH HAHAH HAH AHAH AHAHH AHAHH AHHAHAH AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH HAHAH HAH AHAH AHAHH AHAHH AHHAHAH AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH HAHAH HAH AHAH AHAHH AHAHH AHHAHAH AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH HAHAH HAH AHAH AHAHH AHAHH AHHAHAH AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH HAHAH HAH AHAH AHAHH AHAHH AHHAHAH AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH HAHAH HAH AHAH AHAHH AHAHH AHHAHAH AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH HAHAH HAH AHAH AHAHH AHAHH AHHAHAH AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH HAHAH HAH AHAH AHAHH AHAHH AHHAHAH AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH HAHAH HAH AHAH AHAHH AHAHH AHHAHAH AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH HAHAH HAH AHAH AHAHH AHAHH AHHAHAH AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH HAHAH HAH AHAH AHAHH AHAHH AHHAHAH AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH HAHAH HAH AHAH AHAHH AHAHH AHHAHAH AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH HAHAH HAH AHAH AHAHH AHAHH AHHAHAH AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH HAHAH HAH AHAH AHAHH AHAHH AHHAHAH AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH HAHAH HAH AHAH AHAHH AHAHH AHHAHAH AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH HAHAH HAH AHAH AHAHH AHAHH AHHAHAH AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH HAHAH HAH AHAH AHAHH AHAHH AHHAHAH AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH HAHAH HAH AHAH AHAHH AHAHH AHHAHAH AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH HAHAH HAH AHAH AHAHH AHAHH AHHAHAH AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH HAHAH HAH AHAH AHAHH AHAHH AHHAHAH AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH HAHAH HAH AHAH AHAHH AHAHH AHHAHAH AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH HAHAH HAH AHAH AHAHH AHAHH AHHAHAH AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH HAHAH HAH AHAH AHAHH AHAHH AHHAHAH AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH HAHAH HAH AHAH AHAHH AHAHH AHHAHAH AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH HAHAH HAH AHAH AHAHH AHAHH AHHAHAH AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH HAHAH HAH AHAH AHAHH AHAHH AHHAHAH AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH HAHAH HAH AHAH AHAHH AHAHH AHHAHAH AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH HAHAH HAH AHAH AHAHH AHAHH AHHAHAH AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH HAHAH HAH AHAH AHAHH AHAHH AHHAHAH AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH HAHAH HAH AHAH AHAHH AHAHH AHHAHAH AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH HAHAH HAH AHAH AHAHH AHAHH AHHAHAH AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH HAHAH HAH AHAH AHAHH AHAHH AHHAHAH AHAHAHAHA HAHAHAH HAHAH

I'm done.

Toshiro GreyHawk
Posted - 2011.08.01 17:59:00 - [24]
 

Edited by: Toshiro GreyHawk on 01/08/2011 19:50:56


Lady Go,

Yes ... pure ... unadulterated Bull **** or should I say ... pure unadulterated trolling.

I see no copy of your own calculations so - I guess that's bull **** to. You want me to do it - but won't even show the stuff you've already done ... allegedly ...


Sadly ... you didn't even make me laugh this time.

For all that creativity and effort ... you come up a loser.



You have a nice day ...


.

Nor Tzestu
Amarr
Boxwater Intelligence
Posted - 2011.08.02 02:57:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
Originally by: ACY GTMI
I'm sorry, but you are the one who is mistaken. We are not responsible for the fact that you don't know what to do with the salvage.


The salvage I salvage is free, right? Rolling EyesRolling EyesRolling Eyes

The fact that you can use the salvage in an entirely separate industry profession, as a raw material, has nothing to do with the ISK/hr of collecting the salvage in the first place. In the same manner that you can't take minerals as being free.. /headdesk

I'm amazed that you can be so exclusively carebear, and yet so utterly incompetent at that task.

Here, all of you go read about opportunity cost and then come back here and sound less ******ed.

kthxbai


Salvage free? Well no it isn't. It can be made practically free with the right mission ship and setup. Sadly this has little to do with the "free" minerals argument though. Salvage is an ancillary income that also happens to have a tie into an almost passive high demand money making industry that can only be done with salvage. You can't mine salvage or reprocess it off drone loot or create it out of thin air.

The obvious difference is that one would go out in a particular ship with the sole purpose of mining, while salvage is a by product of doing missions. The first is obviously not free then second is pretty damn close though. Obviously in level 4 missions it is much easier to justify the collection of salvage and loot as you will have far more time to collect as you go if your so inclined. With certain ships ( dominixes, gilas, ishtars etc) I would question the person who left salvage and loot behind in a high level mission. Comparing mining to salvage collection is pretty apples to oranges. To say that you can't include the profits from salvaging into one's isk/hour is patently ridicules. If one is able to spend time while killing rats salvaging wrecks (Noctis alt, low level corp mate, drone based mission boat,marauder) it assuredly makes your mission running more profitable this is not opinion but simple math really. Is it more profitable than doing another mission? Well that would depend on volume and profit margins of the rigs you make and who makes them where. To say they are separate issues is silly though.

There is also the fun factor or an obvious use for salvaging. My wife just started playing eve with me. She has an eye towards industry. Once can get a fairly cheap rig production chain going with low skills and little overhead. Rigs also sell very well and until people stop losing boats will always be in demand. If someone enjoys making things so be it, granted that has little to do with the facts of what's more profitable but so many factors come into play that I won't pretend to know the right answer. To the person in a Nightmare blitzing 4's likely not. To the guy in a Gila? He'd be an idiot not to salvage while he waits for the sentry's to drop the last of the rats. Things like this are rarely so black and white and becoming so emotionally attached to one particular dogma is undoubtedly folly.

Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
Posted - 2011.08.02 09:18:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk
Lady Go,

Yes ... pure ... unadulterated Bull **** or should I say ... pure unadulterated trolling.

I see no copy of your own calculations so - I guess that's bull **** to. You want me to do it - but won't even show the stuff you've already done ... allegedly ...


You seriously think I haven't worked out where I earn most ISK ... you seriously think MOST PEOPLE don't work out where they make most ISK .. ?

To satiate your curiosity, and to prove to myself the loot nerf has remained as nerfed as it is, I took this here character out for a spin.

Lady go, bless her little socks, has 1.3mil SP, mostly in trade junk. She's a Dodixie trade alt / price checker when she isn't trolling like a champ. She does have about 500k in various things of interest, tho:

Destroyers III
Small arty spec II (T2 small arty)
The gunnery support skills to III
Weapon upgrades IV

Yes, a blatant suicide gank alt :P Tho not yet used for such.

So, taking out a Thrasher, fit with no tank except a T1 photon shield and afterburner (kiting, FTW) I set out (bravely, I might add..) to Amarr to do a few missions. For this, I would use a semi-decent alt to go salvage behind me, in a Coercer.

Splitting my guns into two groups, I rapidly found that each group could alpha a rat (occasionally the group of 3 would require a second volley). The main thing slowing me down was my targeting skills, or complete lack of. Missions were over in a matter of a minute, perhaps 2. The significant time sink was in getting there and back.

None the less, I bookmarked all the mission spaces and ran missions for half an hour (32mins to be precise). I waited for the final wallet ping from the bounties, and added it all up.

835,797.86 ISK --> 1,567,121 per hour. Poor, but then this alt has a mere 8days training in combat related skills. I may reattempt this with a MWD Thrasher and autocannons ... or just when the targeting doesn't mean half the time is spent locking he next target :/
Given those limitations, I feel a similar if not better figure is attainable by most.

Now, the salvaging. The salvage dessie was rigged with salvage tackles, and salvaging IV was trained up.
A few remarks:
A clear third of the wrecks "contained nothing of value"
Around 50% of wrecks contained any loot drop at all. Loot was almost exclusively Meta 0.
'Small armour repairer I' was a typical drop. Other drops were commonly 100 rounds of T1 ammo.

Complete salvage time: 12minutes.
ASSUMING SELL ORDER prices in Amarr (but not actually bothering) the full value: 65094.2
ISK/hr - 325,471
To buy orders, ISK/hr - 196,211 (no one buys that ****, apparently)

In your words, *shrug*

Lady Go Diveher
The Independent Troll Society
Posted - 2011.08.02 09:21:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Nor Tzestu
Salvage free? Well no it isn't. It can be made practically free with the right mission ship and setup


We're not talking about Marauders. We're not talking about drone boats with utility highslots. We're talking about re-shipping and going back and doing it as an entirely separate activity. For level 1 and 2 missions.

Toshiro repeatedly claims it takes him NO TIME to do it, and therefore it is free ISK.
No time, because he simply chooses not to count this time. Convenient, eh?

It's magic!

Enna Shendara
Posted - 2011.08.02 09:22:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Toshiro GreyHawk



Congratulations on being a brain dead moron.

IF someone is going to take the time to Mine the Mission space - which this discussion is all about - then savlaging and looting the wrecks too doesn't take that much more time.




No, this thread was about MINING MISSIONS, not MINING IN MISSIONS. What the hell is wrong with you people?

OP: mining missions are not worth your time, but are an effective way of grinding standings, although not as effective as courier missions.

ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group
The Veerhouven Group
Posted - 2011.08.02 11:12:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Lady Go Diveher
Originally by: ACY GTMI
I'm sorry, but you are the one who is mistaken. We are not responsible for the fact that you don't know what to do with the salvage.


The salvage I salvage is free, right? Rolling EyesRolling EyesRolling Eyes

The fact that you can use the salvage in an entirely separate industry profession, as a raw material, has nothing to do with the ISK/hr of collecting the salvage in the first place. In the same manner that you can't take minerals as being free.. /headdesk

I'm amazed that you can be so exclusively carebear, and yet so utterly incompetent at that task.

Here, all of you go read about opportunity cost and then come back here and sound less ******ed.

kthxbai


If the salvage was free, which it isn't, what does that have to do with it? You are suggesting that salvaging is a waste of time. I can tell you from experience, which you don't seem to have, that it is not a waste of time. It is a way to make ISK.

ACY GTMI
Veerhouven Group
The Veerhouven Group
Posted - 2011.08.02 11:15:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Kraven Stark


If you do it right? /boggle

Also, I'm aware of what the discussion is about.

In any case, unless you have a tractor and a salvager on your ship along with a full allotment of miners and all the wrecks happen to be right around the roid you are breaking, it is not worth it to fly a separate ship out for the pittance you will get from any of the lvl 1 ships.




Do you use a hauler, or not that advanced yet? My haulers are equipped with salvage gear. Makes it really easy. You get some nice stuff sometimes, make things harder for the can flippers, and keep the area neat as well, making target selection easier.


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