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Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.07.28 06:15:00 - [61]
 

Sweet tool and thanks for sharing.

I have to say that on reinforced nodes, fleet fights have actually become much more responsive.

I would like to ask if there's anything share concerning development on non-reinforced nodes or potential ideas you've had to assist combating lag when we have spur of the moment encounters. As you know, sometimes your enemy can use lag to gain an advantage and intentionally not requesting for reinforcement has been used as an offensive tactic a few times.

Again, thanks for all your hard work. For those of us who participate in large fleet fights, we've seen a difference.

Ciar Meara
Amarr
Virtus Vindice
Posted - 2011.07.28 07:20:00 - [62]
 

Edited by: Ciar Meara on 28/07/2011 07:21:34
A nice peak at the awesome new tools in fighting lag and improving server performance. Nicely done!

I do however have to report CCP veritas for sexual harrasement he wanted my 'delicous data that came out of my pew pew' this sort of talk is clearly inappropriate.

edit: Your office/bedroom wall is really sad Sad

DeBingJos
Minmatar
Goat Holdings
Posted - 2011.07.28 07:21:00 - [63]
 

Great devblog, we need more of these instead of marketing stuff.


Mr Bobby
Posted - 2011.07.28 07:38:00 - [64]
 

Edited by: Mr Bobby on 28/07/2011 07:58:47
you could also look at allowing the ISD`s or BH to initiate the telemetry tool on fights above a certain size. since there are more of them than just you I think this would give you a wider set of data which as far as i know is more usefull.

Baneken
Gallente
The New Knighthood
Apocalypse Now.
Posted - 2011.07.28 11:46:00 - [65]
 

Edited by: Baneken on 28/07/2011 11:51:07
Originally by: Kenpachi Viktor
The lowest ship warp speed is a known factor. Would it make sense to stop looking at warp speeds if a ship in fleet is found with the lowest warp speed?


There are some extraordinary useless rigs that increase your warp sped hence each ship has to be checked individually, also some of the fleet might by in bubble or scrammed and some aren't which like slows it down a bit.

CCP Veritas

Posted - 2011.07.28 11:52:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Zagdul
I would like to ask if there's anything share concerning development on non-reinforced nodes or potential ideas you've had to assist combating lag when we have spur of the moment encounters. As you know, sometimes your enemy can use lag to gain an advantage and intentionally not requesting for reinforcement has been used as an offensive tactic a few times.


A lot of the things we've been fixing help non-reinforced nodes the same, if not more, than dedicated nodes. I've noticed the performance between those two setups converge a bit, so things are getting better on that front as well.

CCP Veritas

Posted - 2011.07.28 11:53:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Ciar Meara
edit: Your office/bedroom wall is really sad Sad


That'd be my living room. It is very sad. One of the downsides to renting - can't paint the place ><

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.07.28 12:02:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: DeftCrow Redriver
Prrrreatty diagrams! Thanks for informing us Veritas, I'm sure Carl Sagan would be pleased.

One simple question; before you finally pull off time dilation as the ultimate solution against lag, do you have any plans to turn command modules and drone control units into passive modules instead of active modules as they are now? I've heard turning command modules on/off with a large fleet can contribute significantly to the load on destiny, although I have no experiences with both modules.


Time Dialation is not a solution to lag, it's there to make sure that under lag things are even for all sides. The objective should still be to be able to fight undialated with a bazillion pilots on grid.

As far as command modules are concerned, it's not a good idea.
A pilot can currently have more command modules fitted on a BC/CS that he can use.
My standard CS fit, for instance, has 6 command links fitted, only 4 of which can be active at once. That allows one to, as an example, switch from the link providing decreased sig size (to decrease incoming damage) to the link providing extra point/web range when the ennemy is mostly defeated and attempts to run away.
Also, command ship links consume cap (which makes CSes vulnerable if they're neuted).

UniqueOne
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.28 12:22:00 - [69]
 

In addition to grouping drones, should give them a warp drive too... like a fighter but they don't follow others into warp (if assigned).

This would fix galente and make drones useful in pvp again. A weapon that can only be used once (until you warp out) is sorta stupid :)

Jack Tronic
Posted - 2011.07.28 12:58:00 - [70]
 

Edited by: Jack Tronic on 28/07/2011 12:58:31
Originally by: CCP Veritas
Originally by: ShadowandLight
CCP Veritas, its been suggested that players are able to cause lag using the copy bookmark feature (copying many thousands at one time during a fight)

Is this true? Can you verify? Would it be possible to tweak features like this to prevent abuse during large fights?


I do believe there is a limit on how many bookmarks you can copy for exactly this reason.


We wspace people would like null seccers banned from TQ so that we aren't forced to suffer nerfs to features that are vital for playing.

Already forced to suffer things like waiting 10 minutes for a cargo can to load because there's 5 bookmarks in it.

Shian Achura
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.28 13:45:00 - [71]
 

Originally by: CCP Veritas
That'd be my living room. It is very sad. One of the downsides to renting - can't paint the place ><

OT: If I'm not mistaken, you indeed ARE allowed to repaint it. But you have to keep a bucket of the other color available to paint it in the original color, or one close to it. And it always helps to remind the landlord that a renter with happy colors is a happy renter and a happy renter is more happy to pay rent..

BTT: You guys have a pretty cool program. But why is it all green? Wouldn't it be something nice if you could add a few more colors? Like add the yellow power of fear into it..Very Happy Different colors might help you with fast overview. Like something that should happen once every 10 minutes in yellow shows you "that is okay, even if it's close to a second. but it's not okay to see it every 15 seconds here"...

Hemmo Paskiainen
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.28 15:11:00 - [72]
 

U can make a tool that gives reinforcement times of structures in certain regions. Combine that with a tool that buzzes u when local in those systems exeeds 600 people it might be easier for u. Connext that to your cellphone so that u get text message eveytime battel is going on it would speed up stuffs. If not, keep a eye on the southrnt systems.

ps: wtb decent english grammar

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.07.28 15:45:00 - [73]
 

Edited by: Zagdul on 28/07/2011 15:47:31
Edited by: Zagdul on 28/07/2011 15:45:19
Originally by: CCP Veritas
Originally by: Zagdul
I would like to ask if there's anything share concerning development on non-reinforced nodes or potential ideas you've had to assist combating lag when we have spur of the moment encounters. As you know, sometimes your enemy can use lag to gain an advantage and intentionally not requesting for reinforcement has been used as an offensive tactic a few times.


A lot of the things we've been fixing help non-reinforced nodes the same, if not more, than dedicated nodes. I've noticed the performance between those two setups converge a bit, so things are getting better on that front as well.
Thanks for the answer.

One more if you get the time.

Does Tranq drop unused systems and resources from a node in "real-time" when load increases?

it seems to me that, possibly slamming on "Traffic control" for "common routes" to hot systems and booting a few systems off a node would help.

I believe that when spikes in a node happen, (VFK last week for example) that there must be something the server can do in order to assist the fight out.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.07.28 18:21:00 - [74]
 

Holy Mousewheel Abuse, Batman!

For Goddess sake, kick the people around you and get them to give you a mouse with free-spin capability (most newer Logitechs have it).

My fingers ached just listening to that poor wheel being molested so Very Happy

Hykke
Free Imperial Vikings
Posted - 2011.07.28 19:48:00 - [75]
 

Edited by: Hykke on 28/07/2011 19:50:39
Originally by: CCP Veritas
Originally by: Sessym
Great tool there!

Also, just curious, wouldn't it be better from an optimization viewpoint if everything that applied to the whole fleet (like warp speed) would be an attribute of the fleet itself? Every bit of free CPU time is useful, no? Wink


That's a really good idea, I hadn't thought of that! Right now, the implementation of fleets is a bit of a mess, but I'll make a note to myself to make exactly this happen when we get around to refactoring how fleets work.


Don't throw the old code away just yet.
Whenever a ship leaves a fleet, and the ship happens to have the current lowest warp speed, then you no longer know what the lowest warp speed is in the fleet and you will have to either recalculate, or wait until the next warp, and use the old way of warping to recalculate the value (I like to wait with the recalculations until the value is actually needed).

And then I have not even mentioned other issues there might be with ships not even in the system, but still slowing down the fleet inside the system, because they happen to be the slowest ships in the fleet. The problem is ... can the slowest warp speed actually always be calculated as a single number for the entire fleet.

Mynas Atoch
Eternity INC.
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.07.28 20:47:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: Mynas Atoch on 28/07/2011 20:58:16
Edited by: Mynas Atoch on 28/07/2011 20:57:22
Originally by: Sessym
Great tool there!

Also, just curious, wouldn't it be better from an optimization viewpoint if everything that applied to the whole fleet (like warp speed) would be an attribute of the fleet itself? Every bit of free CPU time is useful, no? Wink
I suspect every single viewer who has written a line of code thought exactly the same thing as you at exactly the same instant in the vid. Though most would have assumed that Veritas had thought of that too and that fleet optimization would be something added when fleets are reworked for formations etc.

Originally by: Meissa Anunthiel
As far as command modules are concerned, it's not a good idea.
A pilot can currently have more command modules fitted on a BC/CS that he can use.
My standard CS fit, for instance, has 6 command links fitted, only 4 of which can be active at once. That allows one to, as an example, switch from the link providing decreased sig size (to decrease incoming damage) to the link providing extra point/web range when the ennemy is mostly defeated and attempts to run away.
Also, command ship links consume cap (which makes CSes vulnerable if they're neuted).
Many people would disagree and think this sort of optimization was an EXCELLENT idea and EXACTLY the sort of out of the box thinking that CCP should be doing. Current game mechanics should never be, and never has been sacrosanct when looking at optimization that improve the gaming experience for the vast majority of us. Cap usage could be replaced with cap size penalties like MWDs and the number of people unhappy with it would be trivial.

When you are arguing to retain obscure functionality, do try to remember how few people care about the specifics when the gains are better gaming experience.

Vincent Athena
Posted - 2011.07.29 02:14:00 - [77]
 

I noticed that when you gave details of how a part of the game works, the fleet warp, many suggestions were made on how to speed it up. I even got my own.

The fleet warp speed does not need to be found until the fleet accelerates up to that speed. There are several seconds between actually entering warp, and getting to the 0.7 AU/sec speed. During that time Destiny could be finding the top speed given everyone who happened to get scooped up in the warp. If lag slows the process, the warp would only be at the slowest warp speed (0.7 AU/sec?) until a higher speed is found acceptable.

But that's not my main point. We got a crowd sourcing process going on, on how to reduce lag. CCP Veritas, maybe you need to do more of this. Show us more details of things that really make a big difference and see if we can come up with more ideas you have not considered.

Salpun
Gallente
Paramount Commerce
Posted - 2011.07.29 06:23:00 - [78]
 

Did 46DP-O get observed by this tool during the laggy fleet fight that happened there a couple days ago. Was any new and helpful info found?
Was it reinforced?
Thanks for the devblog. Lets get lag fixed so you guys can work on pos code and other things that need fixingLaughing
Fixes cant get deployed fast enough.
Has the new fleet fight blade been used in the game yet? There as been no newsSad

Kandreath
Posted - 2011.07.29 10:23:00 - [79]
 

Ohhhhhhhh, Telemetry! Love it.

Nice blog. Another sharp edged tool to kill that lag. Die lag! DIE DIE DIE!

Slash it, chop it!!! hack at it until it's all gone!!!!

(I'm ok .... really)

CCP Veritas

Posted - 2011.07.29 10:31:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Zagdul
Does Tranq drop unused systems and resources from a node in "real-time" when load increases?


Not really, no. Unused systems are exceptionally low load though, being unused, so not much to be gained there. Moving systems with people in them causes those people to get disconnected, which is something we don't want an automatic system to do for us. We sometimes do those moves manually when we believe it will help more than it hurts.

Originally by: Zagdul
I believe that when spikes in a node happen, (VFK last week for example) that there must be something the server can do in order to assist the fight out.


I agree, and that's why I'm working on Time Dilation Cool

CCP Veritas

Posted - 2011.07.29 10:37:00 - [81]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Holy Mousewheel Abuse, Batman!

For Goddess sake, kick the people around you and get them to give you a mouse with free-spin capability (most newer Logitechs have it).

My fingers ached just listening to that poor wheel being molested so Very Happy


Hah, I had actually planned to go get one this very day. This mouse has received considerable abuse and has basically given up. It will live out its days as a children's toy.

CCP Veritas

Posted - 2011.07.29 11:47:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: Salpun
Did 46DP-O get observed by this tool during the laggy fleet fight that happened there a couple days ago. Was any new and helpful info found?
Was it reinforced?


It did not unfortunately, I missed it. The node was reinforced. Being the heaviest load fight we've seen in a while, we were able to verify that some fixes we did a couple months back had their desired effect though, so hurray for that. I'll be typing up a devblog about that here before too long.

I suspect there'll be more fights of this kind soon, so I'm keeping my eye out so I can get some sweet sweet data from them.

Originally by: Salpun
Has the new fleet fight blade been used in the game yet? There as been no newsSad


It hasn't. Last I heard, it was coming into service sometime in the next month. I'm not certain on that though.

Silicon Sailor
Northgate
Posted - 2011.07.29 14:27:00 - [83]
 

Edited by: Silicon Sailor on 29/07/2011 15:03:55
Nice tool.

On a side note, I was interested to learn about the (obvious when ya think about it) polling to determine "slowest speed" for Fleet Warps.
I wonder how much time you could save by initiating a warp by voice (Fleet, Warp yourself Now, Now, Now) vs. taking them in a group warp...
Upside = the warp might initiate sooner, and might be "better" on the end, allowing you to See & Shoot quicker
Downside = "faster" ships would arrive first... this may be a bad thing, depending on how MUCH faster they arrive. I'd hate to arrive in my speedy fast little ship, and have to perhaps tap dance a little for Oscar Foxtrot, waiting for backup to arrive

Everseeker
Caldari
Northgate
Posted - 2011.07.29 15:07:00 - [84]
 

Edited by: Everseeker on 29/07/2011 15:07:41
OK, You can only deploy the tool on a limited basis...
You reinforce nodes on notification of a probable attack...

Ummm... wouldn't it be "the thing to do" to make a practice of ALWAYS deploying your tool when nodes are reinforced?

<wave> Hi Sailor </Wave>

Nieero
Posted - 2011.07.30 11:28:00 - [85]
 

Edited by: Nieero on 30/07/2011 11:28:57
I understand, if a party in a given scenario would benefit from a lagged out node, they will simply initiate fleetwarps of their gangs repeatedly?!

MegabitOne
Caldari
The Black Ops
Posted - 2011.07.30 14:25:00 - [86]
 

After all post-release woes, this is one of the most informative dev blogs we've seen in a long time! Concise, not too long, enough information, not too much, easily explained, etc.
I would also like to thank CCP Veritas to have taken the time to follow up on the thread and be active in it by providing answers to questions from players.

Kudos to CCP Veritas and Team Gridlock on this one! May the others take this dev blog as an example and hopefully many more like these may follow!!

Vincent Jarjadian
Posted - 2011.07.30 21:21:00 - [87]
 

This is certainly very interesting... and something i would like to see more of from CCP.

How about doing monitoring on some systems like jita or others... or ones where reinforcement timers are coming out and posting the logs to the community... could lead to more of them analysed and more issues like fleet warps coming up as causing delay.

Can you check the following:
How many fleet warps are performed each Day?
Do other fleet commands have similar affects of delay like: regroup, target broadcasts, watch lists etc

Could an attribute be added to fleets called 'FleetWarpSpeed' or something... and when a person joins a fleet or enters a ship within a fleet the server compares their ships warp speed to the reference one in the new attribute. Since fleet joins/ship entries are not usually performed in combat this could allow less of these big spikes... Especially since in a fleet battle a fleet may be warped multiple times or even multiple dozen times, meaning big spikes of CPU usage calculating the same thing over and over again.

Or alternativly... the slowest warp speed is 0.75 AU/s You could set this as the default warp speed for fleets, meaning fleet warping could be less used or more tactically used... But it would at least relieve some stress on the server.

Also could you program the servers to spread nodes with reinforcement timers across multiple servers as this is likely where battles will occur... It might mean less of them on the same node and possibly improve things slightly.

Additionally... since you know something about the servers workings... Have CCP considered using more powerful servers for reinforced nodes?
The current CPUs are, according to the wiki, two dual core 3.3GHz per blade... If CCP used one or two newer X5690 Xeon CPUs which are 6 cores running at 3.46GHz... with an extra boost from turbo mode, these servers could handle the biggest battles, or even 12 of them simultaneously. Also... they can handle a lot of memory so that could be an advantage as well. You could even overclock them to or past 4GHz and get even more performance (I've seen some on searches running 4.5GHz)... It's not cheap but it could be beneficial...

Also... Some of the new sandy bridge CPUs are reaching 5GHz... are you aware of any plans to produce server grade versions of these?

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.07.31 16:02:00 - [88]
 

Edited by: Zagdul on 31/07/2011 16:04:50
Edited by: Zagdul on 31/07/2011 16:04:27
Originally by: CCP Veritas
Originally by: Zagdul
Does Tranq drop unused systems and resources from a node in "real-time" when load increases?


Not really, no. Unused systems are exceptionally low load though, being unused, so not much to be gained there. Moving systems with people in them causes those people to get disconnected, which is something we don't want an automatic system to do for us. We sometimes do those moves manually when we believe it will help more than it hurts.

Originally by: Zagdul
I believe that when spikes in a node happen, (VFK last week for example) that there must be something the server can do in order to assist the fight out.


I agree, and that's why I'm working on Time Dilation Cool
The thought I had was if someone decides to use an unused system as a mid point for supers, or one of the unused systems is a choke for getting people to the encounter.

By removing it from the node, if/when a fleet who is trying to catch up goes through, it would no longer effect the encounter happening.


Also, thanks for the work on time dilation.

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.07.31 16:08:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: Vincent Jarjadian

The current CPUs are, according to the wiki, two dual core 3.3GHz per blade... If CCP used one or two newer X5690 Xeon CPUs which are 6 cores running at 3.46GHz... with an extra boost from turbo mode, these servers could handle the biggest battles, or even 12 of them simultaneously. Also... they can handle a lot of memory so that could be an advantage as well. You could even overclock them to or past 4GHz and get even more performance (I've seen some on searches running 4.5GHz)... It's not cheap but it could be beneficial...

Also... Some of the new sandy bridge CPUs are reaching 5GHz... are you aware of any plans to produce server grade versions of these?
The CPU's on tranq are more powerful PER CORE than the new Xeons.


DeadlyThreat
Posted - 2011.07.31 23:14:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Zagdul
The CPU's on tranq are more powerful PER CORE than the new Xeons.


Are you saying that the Wolfdale architecture is faster than the Westmere-EP architecture?


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