open All Channels
seplocked EVE Information Portal
blankseplocked New dev blog: Telemetry on Tranquility
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 [2] 3 4

Author Topic

CCP Veritas

Posted - 2011.07.27 16:44:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: ShadowandLight
CCP Veritas, its been suggested that players are able to cause lag using the copy bookmark feature (copying many thousands at one time during a fight)

Is this true? Can you verify? Would it be possible to tweak features like this to prevent abuse during large fights?


I do believe there is a limit on how many bookmarks you can copy for exactly this reason.

wibblesome
Posted - 2011.07.27 16:44:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: wibblesome on 27/07/2011 16:46:04
Originally by: ShadowandLight
amazing tool!!!

CCP Veritas, its been suggested that players are able to cause lag using the copy bookmark feature (copying many thousands at one time during a fight)

Is this true? Can you verify? Would it be possible to tweak features like this to prevent abuse during large fights?


I would be interested in seeing the data on BMs in general. My main lives in W-space and getting BMs from ANY container is a perpetual headache. With only five BMs in a can or hanger it can take 30 seconds to load. With 10 or more, it can take over a minute. Loading them into a folder in people & places is excruciatingly slow, and copying them back 5 at a time it will often take several seconds for the copy to finish! Once they're in "cargo" form, though, they can be moved between various holds/can/whatever without any trouble, as long as you've loaded the contents of whatever space you're using previously (in the same system. Ship-changing doesn't cause any issues, but if you jump out and jump back you seem to have to reload even a can you saw one minute ago from scratch).

There's a weird trick we use that seem to optimize both this and, oddly enough, loading SMAs that have lots of ships: Put it in list view.

Because we're not devs, we don't know if this is because the server takes longer to tell our clients the contents in icon view, or if it just takes our clients longer to line everything up and show them to us. It's still slow loading BMs in list view, but not as slow. The effect on loading SMAs is much more noticeable, it takes only a couple seconds vs. about a minute.

Oh, and if you load an SMA in list view and switch it to icon view, there is virtually zero lag. It would take you an extra thirty seconds at least to load it if you started in icon view, but just starting in list view is enough to cut it down!

Put that tool to work, Veritas, get in touch and I can tell you EXACTLY where to look for this kind of behavior on TQ...

The Mittani
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.07.27 16:49:00 - [33]
 

this owns, veritas owns, gridlock owns~

CCP Veritas

Posted - 2011.07.27 17:00:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: Sentient Blade
That is a very impressive looking profiling suite. How much data is the server kicking out into the profiler each minute?


About 100MB per minute, more or less depending on what's going on. We could trim that down a fair bit but haven't really seen the need to bother yet.

Sgt Maru
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.07.27 17:01:00 - [35]
 

So how do we contact Mr. Veritas if there's going to be a good fight? Will he join fleet? Might he spy for his preferred side? Need to know details before we work a deal out.

Hashin Kyojin
Posted - 2011.07.27 17:14:00 - [36]
 

Love the blog post veritas. Keep up the good work team gridlock. Cool

Jim Luc
Caldari
Rule of Five
Vera Cruz Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.27 17:22:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: CCP Veritas
Originally by: ShadowandLight
CCP Veritas, its been suggested that players are able to cause lag using the copy bookmark feature (copying many thousands at one time during a fight)

Is this true? Can you verify? Would it be possible to tweak features like this to prevent abuse during large fights?


I do believe there is a limit on how many bookmarks you can copy for exactly this reason.


I remember back when the different things like checking mail, PI, character attributes, market, etc were put on different "nodes" decoupling from the systems they are run in. Would it be easier to create a "bookmark" node that is run on another server entirely? This way it shouldn't effect the simulation in that system, should it? I would think that someone copying bookmarks should only impact his local connection bandwidth, not those of everyone in the system, just like checking your mail or typing something in chat shouldn't effect the space simulation.

Also - would revamping how fleets work allow for fleet formations?


Ilarra
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.07.27 17:23:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Sgt Maru
So how do we contact Mr. Veritas if there's going to be a good fight? Will he join fleet? Might he spy for his preferred side? Need to know details before we work a deal out.


Presumably you just need to report the fight using the fleet fight notifier. I imagine Veritas gets a notification any time a node reinforcement request comes in.

Obsidian Hawk
RONA Corporation
RONA Directorate
Posted - 2011.07.27 17:33:00 - [39]
 

CCP Veritas,

That part on the warp speed and warping.

I know you said it wasnt worth looking into, because I happens once every 5 minutes and such, however from the client perspective, even if a fleet warp is given many of us still miss it. Do you know why that may happen?

Also just for the sake of being nit picky, when the fleet is forming, why not have a tool that grabs the warp speed of everyone as they join fleet to skip that step of having to grab everyone's warp speed. I know you say it's small but it's the adding up stuff. when you have 2 fleets of 250 people moving all at the same time those little calls add up. Anyway it's just a thought.

CCP Veritas

Posted - 2011.07.27 17:38:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Sgt Maru
So how do we contact Mr. Veritas if there's going to be a good fight? Will he join fleet? Might he spy for his preferred side? Need to know details before we work a deal out.


I don't join fleets, but I do come in my cloakyship and watch the fireworks. For science, you understand.

I hold no preferred side on any fight. My interest lies in making the infrastructure of the game operate well; whatever you guys do with it is up to you.

Now, as for how to contact me, the community reps know how to get ahold of me, as do the CSM guys. Probably easiest to shake either of those types of people if something's going down *right now*. Of course, if you know of a fight that's going to happen after the next downtime, the fleet fight notification tool is your friend and mine. And everyone's really.

Twilight Runner
Posted - 2011.07.27 17:55:00 - [41]
 

What about a giant Pew Pew event in Hi-sec, make a system 0.0 for a 10mins, to get some data.

everyone who looses a ship gets 20 mil.

Catherine Blacke
Posted - 2011.07.27 17:57:00 - [42]
 

Team Gridlock, you are doing god's work. You said "**** pansying around in stations, we're going to make this game better," and now you're doing it. CCP needs to give teams like you more money, to focus on the actual game. You have all my thanks.

Mikel Laurentson
Posted - 2011.07.27 18:34:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Jim Luc
Originally by: CCP Veritas
Originally by: ShadowandLight
CCP Veritas, its been suggested that players are able to cause lag using the copy bookmark feature (copying many thousands at one time during a fight)

Is this true? Can you verify? Would it be possible to tweak features like this to prevent abuse during large fights?


I do believe there is a limit on how many bookmarks you can copy for exactly this reason.


I remember back when the different things like checking mail, PI, character attributes, market, etc were put on different "nodes" decoupling from the systems they are run in. Would it be easier to create a "bookmark" node that is run on another server entirely? This way it shouldn't effect the simulation in that system, should it? I would think that someone copying bookmarks should only impact his local connection bandwidth, not those of everyone in the system, just like checking your mail or typing something in chat shouldn't effect the space simulation.

Also - would revamping how fleets work allow for fleet formations?




Anything that improves how BMs work would be nice. The time the system takes to display BMs in cans and POS hangars is insane.

Meissa Anunthiel
Redshift Industrial
Rooks and Kings
Posted - 2011.07.27 18:39:00 - [44]
 

Thanks for sharing the video with everyone Veritas. Another one in a long line of interesting devblogs by your team, keep them coming :-)

Salpad
Caldari
Carebears with Attitude
Posted - 2011.07.27 18:52:00 - [45]
 

Keep up the good work!

I was talking to some noobs a few days ago, telling htem about how in the bad old days, Jita was screwed up by lag at any time except on Sundays when it was even worse, and it didn't make any sense to them.

Keep optimizing the game code and game functioning, so it scales better, and you won't need to upgrade hardware so often. And time dillation also sounds like a great idea (at elast if you read what it is actually about), so I hope you'll get around to that too, soon.

VonKolroth
Gallente
Dreddit
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.07.27 19:03:00 - [46]
 

Thanks for the good DEV blog and and explaining a bit how you are going about combating lag. More then that, I have to say I'm impressed with the use of video in the DEV blog. Everyone knows it will be easier for the plebs to follow ;-). I hope the use of video's become a trend with dev blogs, It does make things easier for all of us to follow and there is a lot less room for eve players to mistake the "tone" of dev blogs in general.

Skogen Gump
The Star Fraction
Posted - 2011.07.27 19:43:00 - [47]
 

Great stuff Veritas, looks very informative. As a developer myself, i enjoy the creation of tools, so this is fantastic stuff.

However, your blog text might need tweaking as this means something else, when taken out of context :)

Originally by: CCP Veritas
I fancy myself a large kid

John McCreedy
Caldari
Eve Defence Force
Posted - 2011.07.27 19:49:00 - [48]
 

You guys are doing an amazing job, Veritas, thank you. In the big fight in VFK in Deklein a couple of weeks ago (on a reinforced node) there was bearly any lag. Keep up the great work Smile

Noble Noob
Posted - 2011.07.27 22:05:00 - [49]
 

Concerning fleet warp

If I understand correctly, you find all of the warp speeds
for each ship and force all of the ships to warp at the slowest speed.

Simplify the checking. Have the system only check for class of ships and set a speed based on that class of ship.

Set a predetermined speed you want as the "Fleet Warpspeed" for each class.

Then the system only has to determine what is the slowest class
of ship in the fleet and set the "Fleet Warpspeed" to the predetermined speed.

This allows for standardized warp speed but also allows for players to make faster or slower fleets based on ship classes in the fleet.

This can also be used for "Flying in Formation" if that ever gets around.
When a fleet makes a formation then, all movement stats are set at a predetermined level according to the class of ships in the fleet.

Speed, agility, etc.
10 frigs = preset frig movement
9 frigs/1BS = preset BS movement
5 frigs/5 destroyers = preset destroyer movement

Zendoren
Aktaeon Industries
The Black Armada
Posted - 2011.07.27 22:12:00 - [50]
 

Awesome Tool!!!

Any chance at making a tool to increase Art Department's productivity and give them the ability to redesign large objects (like stations and capitals) to make use of the new graphics engine???

Would like to have a POS redesign within this decade!!!! =P

Mirei Jun
Right to Rule
THE UNTHINKABLES
Posted - 2011.07.27 22:14:00 - [51]
 

Very good development blog. This is the sort of thing a "Dev Blog" is supposed to be used for. -Hope to see more like this.


Lykouleon
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.07.27 23:19:00 - [52]
 

Can you make the bars different colors? Or do you just like green?

The Offerer
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.27 23:55:00 - [53]
 

Thank you for the devblog. It's always nice to see tools that help fighting against lag.

King Kazma Usoko
Posted - 2011.07.27 23:56:00 - [54]
 

I have an idea Shocked:

The warp speed check could be reduced if you introduce a module/rig/subsystem/crew onboard on a commandship/command t3 that sets the fleet warp speed to a value i.e. like 6/au per second.

So you dont need the clients answer, you r just sending. YARRRR!!

Johnathan Roark
Caldari
The Graduates
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.07.28 00:09:00 - [55]
 

Nice tool. Wondering if doing some of these processes on server gpu would help?

DeftCrow Redriver
Gallente
Best Path Inc.
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2011.07.28 00:50:00 - [56]
 

Prrrreatty diagrams! Thanks for informing us Veritas, I'm sure Carl Sagan would be pleased.

One simple question; before you finally pull off time dilation as the ultimate solution against lag, do you have any plans to turn command modules and drone control units into passive modules instead of active modules as they are now? I've heard turning command modules on/off with a large fleet can contribute significantly to the load on destiny, although I have no experiences with both modules.

ELECTR0FREAK
Eye of God
Posted - 2011.07.28 00:55:00 - [57]
 

Very cool blog, Veritas. You're going to regret zooming on on that Fleet Warp though... everyone seems prepared to solve that problem for you. :p

Foraminifera
Posted - 2011.07.28 01:55:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: CCP Veritas
Originally by: Sessym
Great tool there!

Also, just curious, wouldn't it be better from an optimization viewpoint if everything that applied to the whole fleet (like warp speed) would be an attribute of the fleet itself? Every bit of free CPU time is useful, no? Wink


That's a really good idea, I hadn't thought of that! Right now, the implementation of fleets is a bit of a mess, but I'll make a note to myself to make exactly this happen when we get around to refactoring how fleets work.


Tiny problem I see with that.
What about a group of e.g. interceptors being on the other side of the system, warping their squad around? They would be as slow as the freighter that is still sitting in a station 2 jumps away .
My guess is that this is why there's the "we check each and every ship that got the fleetwarp" thing, you never know who actually gets the fleetwarp until they are off. What if the guy in the freighter cancels warp? But then again I have no idea when that calculation happens ( at the beginning where everyone sees the "warping text" or the actual warp tunnel ).... need to stop thinking about .... what about having a sorted list of the warpspeeds? First hit that is also on the field is who counts, I guess on average that would lead to less checks then all people in gang, also running the sort doesn't hap.... Dammit I wanna play with spaceships not think about algorithms... get out of my head!

Have fun with that.

Heh, and I guess your profiler beats running your software inside valgrind when it comes to performance ... though the helgrind tool is one hell of a great way to find race conditions in programs that use pthreads in any way.

Har Harrison
Amarrian Retribution
Posted - 2011.07.28 02:34:00 - [59]
 

Few things for people to remember when throwing out their "solutions"

1) Just checking the ship type would ignore any other factors such rigs that modify the base warp speed of a ship...

2) Group drones - doesn't work if 1) the drones are different class - e.g. Myrm with 2 heavy, 2 med and 1 scout or 2) due to the fact drones orbit and therefore may or may not be in optimal range etc... depending on their speed vs target speed (think warrior 2s chasing something fast like a dram etc...).

3) The issue is the ships on grid vs in fleet when the XXX warp is initiated (squad/wing/fleet) - only ships on grid warp.

4) As others have pointed out, making one semi-expensive call only when required may actually be more efficent then making repeated updates that take a small amount of time but happen many times when looking at the overall use of system resources

Blazde
4S Corporation
Morsus Mihi
Posted - 2011.07.28 05:43:00 - [60]
 

Oh ****, this is awesome


Pages: 1 [2] 3 4

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only