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blankseplocked Change Aggro/Criminal Flagging Rules
 
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Verity Sovereign
Posted - 2011.07.26 16:41:00 - [1]
 

It seems to me that the aggro rules are being exploited to lead to unwanted PvP in high sec.

I'm fine with can flipping/ ninja salvaging: Theivery should be allowed, "ninja salvaging" should be allowed, and fireing at those people should be allowed.

My problem is with the people that commit the first "act of aggression", who then dock up, change to a ship with major gankage potential, and go back out to kill the missioner/miner/whoever's can they stole from.

If I commit the first act of aggression, and the other person excercizes their retaliation right, then I should have the right to retaliate (not just sit there and get shot at or warp away)....

BUT

I think that right should end as soon as I dock.

After I dock and undock, I should have to get them to re-aggro me if I want to attack without Concord intervention (this is assuming I stole from them).

Right now I think "ninja salvaging" is too easy:
You fly a cheap ship, and start stealing lvl 4 loot. Nobody attacks you because its simply not worth it.

The ninja salvager is never worried about fitting their ship so they can escape with the loot (such as a buffer, and ECM or warp core stab).
If they lose the ship, oh well, it was cheap.
They fly back to station, get in their PvP fitted Gank ship, and go kill the PvE fitted mission runner.

The PvE mission runner has 3 choices:
1) let the theif steal all the mission loot worth 10 million or so,
2) attack the theif, and then abort the mission for the next 15 minutes (warp inbetween safe spots for 2-3 min, then dock up), while the theif goes and takes some loot, or
3) attack the theif, continue the mission, and probably lose a ship + fittings worth well over 100 million ISK.


The game designers made "high sec" for a reason, and I don't think this sort of thing belongs in high sec.

If you aggro someone and they retaliate, you should have to fight in the ship you aggro'd them with, otherwise the kill rights/criminal flagging rules only benefit the PvPers killing noobs who are still in high sec.

Before there is any speculation, no I have not lost a ship to people returning with Gank ships, I have always taken options 1) or 2), but mostly option 1.

If the criminal flagging system were changed the way I propose above, I'd attack these theives a whole lot more often.

But right now the game mechanics are such that it just doesn't make sense to attack ninja salvagers, and ninja salvagers can excercise their profession at nearly no risk of retaliation with cheap poorly fitted ships.

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.07.26 16:44:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Mendolus on 26/07/2011 16:46:14


That would require ships have index and property information beyond ownership itself, which is likely to never happen. Would cause excessive lag if not only pilots but ships themselves had aggression rules applied to them in fleet battles. CCP has been trying to reduce the data clutter for the past year or two since Dominion, not increase it.

Edit: Besides, you are asking CCP to somehow police players on whether they can be cheap or not, it is not gonna happen. Aggression is not there to allow people to redock in better ships just to come back and kill you, the two are not causal.

Lady Spank
Amarr
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2011.07.26 16:48:00 - [3]
 

How about mission runners stop trying to PVP in their mission setups when it's obvious what's going to happen anyway.

Verity Sovereign
Posted - 2011.07.26 17:01:00 - [4]
 

Quote:
How about mission runners stop trying to PVP in their mission setups when it's obvious what's going to happen anyway.

Thats my point, its obvious what is going to happen, so the mission runners don't even try(or are stupid if they do). The aggro system only serves to allow theives to gank people in high sec.
"Ninja Salvaging" is essentially zero risk ISK.

Quote:
That would require ships have index and property information beyond ownership itself, which is likely to never happen. Would cause excessive lag if not only pilots but ships themselves had aggression rules applied to them in fleet battles.


No it wouldn't.
Your criminal flag is simply reset when you dock. You don't need to tie it to the ship.
If you can't dock, you can't change ships with no risk.
Sure they could try leaving their gankage ship at a safe spot, ejecting from their cheap salvage ship, and getting in their gank ship via a pod without docking.... but then that requires them to leave a (presumably high value) ship sitting unoccupied just waiting to be scanned down and stolen by someone else.
Suddenly, there is risk to Ninja Salvaging, or some skill is needed to pull it off (ie fit your ninja salvage ship so that you can make it out with the loot)

Lady Spank
Amarr
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2011.07.26 17:07:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Verity Sovereign
Quote:
How about mission runners stop trying to PVP in their mission setups when it's obvious what's going to happen anyway.

Thats my point, its obvious what is going to happen, so the mission runners don't even try(or are stupid if they do). The aggro system only serves to allow theives to gank people in high sec.
"Ninja Salvaging" is essentially zero risk ISK.


They do get shot at though, so there's a risk. I'd say it's a far greater risk than running level 4 missions which you would have to be exceptionally bad to die in (outside of server lag/disconnects).

Tom Gerard
Caldari
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2011.07.26 17:11:00 - [6]
 

CCP should invent a class of mission ship that can salvage during combat.

FuryX1013
Posted - 2011.07.26 17:16:00 - [7]
 

There is a hole in your logic Verity.

Example Ninja A is in cheap ship has Alt B in Orca with Gank ship inside Maint bay.

Ninja get's agro warps to orca in safe spot alt ejects Gank ship from bay Ninja changes ships in space.

Orca alt picks up cheap frig.

No docking needed mission runner dies.

I would also point out both mission running and ninja salvaging are more or less risk free.

Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2011.07.26 17:18:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Tom Gerard
CCP should invent a class of mission ship that can salvage during combat.


I think we should all go the features and ideas forum and suggest that CCP implement a Marauder class ship. Maybe even give it something like extra tractor beam range.

Nah, that idea is just too silly.


Calfis
Amarr
Dirt Nap Squad
Dirt Nap Squad.
Posted - 2011.07.26 17:22:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Verity Sovereign

The PvE mission runner has 3 choices:
1) let the theif steal all the mission loot worth 10 million or so,
2) attack the theif, and then abort the mission for the next 15 minutes (warp inbetween safe spots for 2-3 min, then dock up), while the theif goes and takes some loot, or
3) attack the theif, continue the mission, and probably lose a ship + fittings worth well over 100 million ISK.



Wrong. You in fact have a 4th choice. Switch to a gankage ship when he is switching to said gank ship and out gank his ass then profit. Wink

KaarBaak
Minmatar
Seatec Astronomy
Posted - 2011.07.26 17:22:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Verity Sovereign
It seems to me that the aggro rules are being exploited to lead to unwanted PvP in high sec.
There are a lot of things people want/don't want in game, but them's the rules.
Quote:

I'm fine with can flipping/ ninja salvaging: Theivery should be allowed, "ninja salvaging" should be allowed, and fireing at those people should be allowed.


Ok...good.
Quote:

Right now I think "ninja salvaging" is too easy:

Just for clarity and your own edification, the rest of your post discusses looting issues, not ninja salvaging.
Quote:

The PvE mission runner has 3 choices:
1) let the theif steal all the mission loot worth 10 million or so,
2) attack the theif, and then abort the mission for the next 15 minutes (warp inbetween safe spots for 2-3 min, then dock up), while the theif goes and takes some loot, or
3) attack the theif, continue the mission, and probably lose a ship + fittings worth well over 100 million ISK.



So, if you "want" PvP you can choose (3) and sometimes (2). If you don't want PvP you can choose (1) and sometimes (2). It seems you answered you own question...you have the option to partake in PvP or not. What's it worth to you?
Quote:
The game designers made "high sec" for a reason, and I don't think this sort of thing belongs in high sec.
At least you are clear enough here. The game designers want this mechanic. You do not. The way it's currently designed, it seems to create just the right amount of conflict with just the right amount of consent. If anything, this is the 'consensual PvP' that people are always looking for.

Quote:
Before there is any speculation, no I have not lost a ship to people returning with Gank ships, I have always taken options 1) or 2), but mostly option 1.



Options are good. Why take them away?


Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.26 17:35:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Verity Sovereign
The game designers made "high sec" for a reason, and I don't think this sort of thing belongs in high sec.
Well, they do, and they designed highsec to work that way for a reason.
Quote:
It seems to me that the aggro rules are being exploited to lead to unwanted PvP in high sec.
How so?

Quote:
I think that right should end as soon as I dock.
Why?
Quote:
Right now I think "ninja salvaging" is too easy:
You fly a cheap ship, and start stealing lvl 4 loot. Nobody attacks you because its simply not worth it.
Nobody attacks ninjas because that gets you CONCORDed, and no, it should not incur theft flagging. The salvage isn't yours nothing is being stolen. If you want the salvage, you have to earn it. So, really, what does ninja salvaging have to do with your theft flagging issue?

Quote:
The PvE mission runner has 3 choices:
No. He has four choices. You left out "get his PvP ship and blow the thief out of the sky".
Quote:
If the criminal flagging system were changed the way I propose above, I'd attack these theives a whole lot more often.
Unlikely, since they'd just come equipped for the job directly instead, and you'd still be in the wrong ship to deal with the situation.

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.07.26 18:29:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Verity Sovereign

Quote:
That would require ships have index and property information beyond ownership itself, which is likely to never happen. Would cause excessive lag if not only pilots but ships themselves had aggression rules applied to them in fleet battles.


No it wouldn't.
Your criminal flag is simply reset when you dock. You don't need to tie it to the ship.
If you can't dock, you can't change ships with no risk.
Sure they could try leaving their gankage ship at a safe spot, ejecting from their cheap salvage ship, and getting in their gank ship via a pod without docking.... but then that requires them to leave a (presumably high value) ship sitting unoccupied just waiting to be scanned down and stolen by someone else.
Suddenly, there is risk to Ninja Salvaging, or some skill is needed to pull it off (ie fit your ninja salvage ship so that you can make it out with the loot)


I think you are under the impression that people will not mercilessly exploit ANY mechanic that gives them control over how and when they drop their own criminal flags.

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Posted - 2011.07.26 18:42:00 - [13]
 

7/10

CCP Zymurgist


Gallente
C C P
Posted - 2011.07.26 19:09:00 - [14]
 

Moved from General Discussion.

Diesel74
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.26 19:38:00 - [15]
 

Carebears already got incursions. Stop trying to ruin the PvP.


 

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