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Garion Maki
Gallente
KamiTech
Posted - 2005.02.25 22:43:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: Garion Maki on 28/02/2005 22:25:05
After some testing with 3AU and 12AU probes, I think I got some basic FAQ answers for those that need them, and some more questions I'd love to see answerd.

The scan window with 3 probes active

Known FAQ:
Q: What can probes do?
A: There are 2 types of probes, the first is used to scan the content of moons (for moon mining POS) and the second type is used to find safespots and basicaly hidden stuff.

Q: What equipment do I need to use probes?
A: You will need to equipt a scan probe launcher and carry the probes you want to use.

Q: What's the difference between the different moon scanning probes?
A: The main difference is the time it takes to analyse the data and the cargo space they need.

Q: What's the difference between the different safespot scanning probes?
A: The main difference is the range they scan at (from 3AU to 192AU) and the time they stay floating in space.

Q: How many probes do I need to scan moons?
A: You will need 1 probe/moon.

Q: How many probes do I need to scan for safespots?
A: Technicaly, you need 3 probes to start a scan, but usualy you first deploy 3 long range probes which will get you within several AU of your target, after which you deploy smaller range probes untill you get within 60-600km or your target.

Q: How long does it take to probe a moon?
A: The time depends on the type of probe you use, ranging from 5 to 40 minutes.

Q: How long does it take to probe for a safespot?
A: After you deployed 3 probes, it takes you 5minutes to analyze the data from the probes (the probes need to be active when you start analyzing, but after that they can time out without disrupting the analyse)

Q: How do I scan?
A: After you launched the probes (1 for moon probing, 3 for safespot probing) select the probe(s) and click the analyze button. The results should appear after the 'analyzing' timer expired.

Q: Can I cloak while analyzing the data?
A: once you started the analyze, you can cloak.

Q: What can I scan for with safespot probes?
A: All types of ships, 1 type of ship/analyze. (for example, during your first analyze which takes 5 minutes, you scan for battleships only, during the second analyze, you scan for cruisers etc.)

---
Other usefull posts:
- Attrezzo Pox explains how to scan for safespots (3rd post down).
- And another one

---
This is all the Questions and Answers I could come up with right now, if you know any more, post them below and I'll edit them in.

Garion Maki
Gallente
KamiTech
Posted - 2005.02.25 22:50:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Garion Maki on 28/02/2005 16:09:20
unknown FAQ:
Q: When using safespot scanning probes, what is the coverage of the probes? (and how should they be deployed?)

if you look at an example, does the safespot your scanning for need to be coverd by atleast 1, 2 or 3 probes?
if it needs to be coverd by 3 probes, then it would probably be easiest to just drop them all 1km from eachother, but if they only need to be in the scan range of 1 probe, then you can drop them verry far from eachother etc.

Q: Is there any way to reduce the time it takes to analyze the data? Or is there any way planned?

Q: what happens if the target ship warps around during the scan/analyze? will it show? when does it need to be in the scan area?

---
If anybady can answer these questions, then I can add them to the FAQ, if you have questions yourself, post them below and maibe sombady else can answer them.

Techyon
The Scope
Posted - 2005.02.25 22:51:00 - [3]
 

Nice FAQ, deserves to be in a sticky somewhere imo

Imhotep Khem
Minmatar
Doom Guard
Wildly Inappropriate.
Posted - 2005.02.28 20:52:00 - [4]
 

"if you look at an example, does the safespot your scanning for need to be coverd by atleast 1, 2 or 3 probes?"

What are you saying here? How am I supposed to know how many probes to use when hunting for a particular thing?

Could you explain better when to drop them side by side, and when to spread them out? They shouldnt be working side by side anyway, but its not surprising.

Garion Maki
Gallente
KamiTech
Posted - 2005.02.28 22:20:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Imhotep Khem
"if you look at an example, does the safespot your scanning for need to be coverd by atleast 1, 2 or 3 probes?"

What are you saying here? How am I supposed to know how many probes to use when hunting for a particular thing?

Could you explain better when to drop them side by side, and when to spread them out? They shouldnt be working side by side anyway, but its not surprising.


that's one of the things I'm hoping of getting a official responce on, since I just don't know yet Rolling Eyes

when you want to scan, you'll need atleast 3 probes tho (or else you can't analyse the data).
I'm just not shure how you need to place the probes around the target your trying to find (does it need to be within the range of all 3 probes[3AU/12AU/..]? does it need to be inside the triangle formed by the 3 probes? etc.)

like I mentioned, the first post is questions and answers that I'm pretty shure of, the second post is questions I don't know the answer to yet, but would like to know.

I gues I'll be getting some corp mates to play bate during the weekend tho, to do some more probe testing.
Maibe we can find the answers then Rolling Eyes

Sylia Masters
Posted - 2005.02.28 23:43:00 - [6]
 

Deepspace probes give you crazy warp points, and they are effectivly useless now as they where when they only had a 1.0 au range. They do not display thier ranges correctly, and they seem to only have the max possible accuracy for every signature they detect :(

Right now they are only good to show you that there are things outside your ship's scan range, and not much else (ok makeing insane safe spots, a replacement for F11).

TjanitN Tcroxlr
Caldari
Phoenix Enterprises Mining and Industries
Posted - 2005.04.30 18:03:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: TjanitN Tcroxlr on 30/04/2005 18:07:32
Originally by: Garion Maki
Originally by: Imhotep Khem
What are you saying here? How am I supposed to know how many probes to use when hunting for a particular thing?

Could you explain better when to drop them side by side, and when to spread them out? They shouldnt be working side by side anyway, but its not surprising.
when you want to scan, you'll need atleast 3 probes tho (or else you can't analyse the data).
I'm just not shure how you need to place the probes around the target your trying to find (does it need to be within the range of all 3 probes[3AU/12AU/..]? does it need to be inside the triangle formed by the 3 probes? etc.)

Sounds to me that all your questions in the quote can be answered by a crash course in Navigational Triangulation. An in depth explanation would take reams of essays, but I will try to give a brief explanation of the high points in English, rather than techniquese:

The easiest way to do this is to picture an imaginary search in your mind and take it step by step. PLEASE NOTE: This is an example of RL Triangulation. As I cannot yet use probes, I don't know how the game mechanics will differ.

Ok So we want to find a z in this thread. But not just any z, the particulal z we are looking for is Caps, bold, italicized, and underlined. Well there are a lot of letters on this page so where do we start?

  • Step 1: We place a probe at any arbitrary spot on the post, and activate it. This O will represent that location. If that probe detects the z we are looking for, we take note of the distance and move to step 3.
  • Step 2: If the first probe fails to detect the particular z, we retreive it (is this possible in EVE?), move to a new arbitrary place within the post, and repeat step 1. In Eve, you may have to place a new probe, as I dont know if probes are retreivable.
  • Step 3: Draw a circle on your map whose center point is your first probe, and whose radius is the distance at which the probe has located the target z. Of course the scan map in Eve isnt editable. (do I see a suggestion there?) I guess in Eve you can set distance from first probe or orbit first probe at prescribed distance.
  • Step 4: Place a second probe in another arbitrary location and repeat steps 1 - 3.This O will represent that location.
  • Step 5: Any point where your probes' z detected circles intersect could be the target's location. There should be 2 such points


  • So how do you know which one? You could use trial and error, physically checking each point, or...

  • Step 6: You could place a third probe (hence the name triangulation). This O will represent that location. This probe's detect circle will only cross one of the other 2 points where the previous circles intersect, and that will be the location of your target.


  • So what if the Z is outside the triangle formed by the 3 probes? Larger circles. Razz

    The results will still work the same as long as the target is within range of all 3 probes. For example, in this post the Z is 20 lines from the first O, 12 lines from the second O, 6 lines outside the third O, and not within the triangle formed by drawing straight lines between the 3. But even if the first word was at the center of the post and the page was as wide as it would be tall, the second probe would give you 2 possible locations, and the third probe would tell you which of the two is the one in which our z is hidden.






    Spy4Hire
    Posted - 2005.05.29 23:35:00 - [8]
     

    Okay.... I've been using scan probes to just plain 'look for stuff'... but the only thing that will ever show up are stations.

    I search for battleships (there happened to be 2 outside my station for 10 minutes letting me 'look for them') - using the appropriate probe for their range (2 au from my position), I scan and produce... *nothing*

    WTF??? They were on the same 'plane' (neither above nor below the orbital plane), so WTF is wrong with that?

    I do a search for 'cosmic signature' 1 au from a complex beacon, and produce: *nothing*

    What bloody good are these things if they won't find what you already *KNOW* is there???

    Carter83
    Posted - 2005.06.21 11:17:00 - [9]
     

    Everyone seems to know this but me... whats a cosmic signature????

    Plague Black
    4S Corporation
    Morsus Mihi
    Posted - 2005.06.22 11:58:00 - [10]
     

    If the object is in the scan range (of 3au probe for example), can I just deploy 3 probes at the same spot, or is there something like minimal distance?

    Dahins alt
    Posted - 2005.06.22 12:45:00 - [11]
     

    Originally by: Garion Maki
    Edited by: Garion Maki on 28/02/2005 16:09:20
    unknown FAQ:
    Q: When using safespot scanning probes, what is the coverage of the probes? (and how should they be deployed?)




    In my experience, for each probe, the other 2 must be in it's range.
    For example, I have tried to locate a spot that was covered by all 3 probes as follows:
    P<-2au->SS<2-au->PP
    Where P=3au probe, SS=safespot.
    We can see that the SS is covered by all 3 probes, but each probe doesn't cover both others in its range. The test failed.


    Originally by: Garion Maki

    Q: Is there any way to reduce the time it takes to analyze the data? Or is there any way planned?


    Minimum possible scanning time is 75secs with astrometrics and covert ops @lvl5.



    Originally by: Garion Maki

    Q: what happens if the target ship warps around during the scan/analyze? will it show? when does it need to be in the scan area?



    Again, from experience, the timer works as a delay to the actual timer. Upon the completion of the timer, any shiptypes in the scanning range give results.
    So, if they warp out in the timer=no go. If someone warps in, he is located when timer expires.

    Deep space probes is a black art. Took me a full day to find a general approach to using em.

    Dahin
    Maza Nostra
    HELL4S
    Posted - 2005.06.22 12:46:00 - [12]
     

    Edited by: Dahin on 22/06/2005 12:49:57
    oops, damn alt post :/

    EDIT:
    oh and about no2, they definitely need to be one the range of all 3 probes.
    The onl thing I haven't tested yet is if he actuall needs to be inside the triangle or just in all 3 probes' range.
    Probes of same size at optimal positioning cannot have a ship outside their triangle and in all 3 ranges, but reality says that the probes are never placed in optimal positions.

    Siroc
    Minmatar
    Brutor Tribe
    Posted - 2005.06.22 18:52:00 - [13]
     

    /sticky vote.

    CHIKA QRE
    MAX-Fail agency
    Posted - 2005.06.23 08:15:00 - [14]
     

    Yes, pls. STICKY this unless you are hiding somethingRazz

    Wizardo
    Rage Obsession
    Posted - 2005.06.23 13:26:00 - [15]
     

    Sticky pls. And we need more meet to these bones.

    PhoenixDawn
    Gallente
    Forge Regional Security
    United Corporations Of Modern Eve
    Posted - 2005.06.30 05:08:00 - [16]
     

    Scan probes are the biggest rip off in the entire game, IMO. They simply do not work at ALL.

    Example:
    I'm in a system that is 36au across and I have 3 of my partners in the system with BS, and a target BS.

    we fly around scanning from planets/moons, narrowing down the location of our target to about 4au. So I launch 3 12au probes at the closest moon and proceed to scan for battleships.

    Results: No Results.

    Okay, WTF? I've got a BS sitting 50km from the probes, 2 other BS in my fleet sitting on gates, and this other one parked in the same spot for over 10 minutes. And the scan probes find NOTHING? I have completely wasted 2 months of training to use the probes effectively, and they just don't work.

    So we decide to test in another system, this one empty except for a few rats. It's 40 or so au across, and one of my corp mates parks a ship at a moon. He just lets it sit there, not moving. 20au away I launch 48 au probes and scan for battleships.

    NO RESULTS.

    WTF?

    I move within 5au and try 12au probes. Results: one target, so I warp to it. I end up going *away* from my partner who has been sitting idle on this moon for half an hour, and end up returning.... to my 48au probe location!??!??!

    One last test, I warp to within 1au of my partner. Actually I go to the planet of the moon he's sitting at, that's like... 500 thousand KM. I launch three 3au probes and scan *again*.

    NO RESULTS.

    CCP, I want my dammned skillpoints back!Evil or Very Mad

    ELECTR0FREAK
    Eye of God
    Posted - 2005.06.30 05:19:00 - [17]
     

    /sign, probes do indeed need lots more love.

    I spent hours scanning for a guy with 12au probes, KNOWING for a fact he wasn't more than 3au away (my corp mates had his position triangulated) only to get NO RESULTS every damn time. It's more than a little irritating.

    Golgrath
    Minmatar
    Shinra
    Lotka Volterra
    Posted - 2005.06.30 05:25:00 - [18]
     

    Originally by: PhoenixDawn
    Scan probes are the biggest rip off in the entire game, IMO. They simply do not work at ALL.

    Example:
    I'm in a system that is 36au across and I have 3 of my partners in the system with BS, and a target BS.

    we fly around scanning from planets/moons, narrowing down the location of our target to about 4au. So I launch 3 12au probes at the closest moon and proceed to scan for battleships.

    Results: No Results.

    Okay, WTF? I've got a BS sitting 50km from the probes, 2 other BS in my fleet sitting on gates, and this other one parked in the same spot for over 10 minutes. And the scan probes find NOTHING? I have completely wasted 2 months of training to use the probes effectively, and they just don't work.

    So we decide to test in another system, this one empty except for a few rats. It's 40 or so au across, and one of my corp mates parks a ship at a moon. He just lets it sit there, not moving. 20au away I launch 48 au probes and scan for battleships.

    NO RESULTS.

    WTF?

    I move within 5au and try 12au probes. Results: one target, so I warp to it. I end up going *away* from my partner who has been sitting idle on this moon for half an hour, and end up returning.... to my 48au probe location!??!??!

    One last test, I warp to within 1au of my partner. Actually I go to the planet of the moon he's sitting at, that's like... 500 thousand KM. I launch three 3au probes and scan *again*.

    NO RESULTS.

    CCP, I want my dammned skillpoints back!Evil or Very Mad


    You are using them wrong. you cant drop 3 at the same spot, the target must be inside a triangle that the 3 probes form. Supposedly the probes should scan 1 au outside this triangle (triangle edges are 1 au 'thick') but this gives random results.

    ELECTR0FREAK
    Eye of God
    Posted - 2005.06.30 05:32:00 - [19]
     

    No, you don't need to have the target inside the triangle of probes. It only needs to be within the scan radius of all 3 probes.

    Taaser
    Posted - 2005.07.03 18:44:00 - [20]
     

    Edited by: Taaser on 03/07/2005 18:46:58
    Originally by: Golgrath
    You cant drop 3 at the same spot
    Yes you can. I find my targets just fine.

    Though I only launch three at the same location with the 3AUs.


    Dahin
    Maza Nostra
    HELL4S
    Posted - 2005.07.26 10:33:00 - [21]
     

    Edited by: Dahin on 26/07/2005 10:34:14
    thread necromancy!

    Probes do work almost perfectly.
    You just need to get accomodated with their perks. Practice makes perfect.
    Since the time of my first post, I have trained in super-safespot finding (F11) and have managed to cut down my average time to 15mins for those Twisted Evil

    There also seems to be a slight problem with stacking 3x3au probes that has repeatedly yielded no results even if the target is within 1au from me (150.000.000km), even had it happen with taragets 100m km away.
    One would suppose that stacking 3x3au probes wields a 1au radius sphere of scanning, it does not.
    For in-sol purposes the unknown shape of the stacked scanning area can be easily generalized to a shpere, but when moving from gate2gate where gates' coords are off in both z and x/y axis it does matter.

    I suspect that the scanning shape of stacked-scanning is a star-like form:
    Take a symmetric cross and rotate it 90degrees on an axis to get the shape. The thing I don't know is how fat are the "legs" of the cross, and hece how nice is the resulting scanning area.
    The morale of the thing: there's a 10% chance that you will fail on the scan in such g2g scans, try to move closer than 100m km before stacking the probes or try a 2-1 3xau scan if you have 2 spots close to his safespot.

    Dahin
    Maza Nostra
    HELL4S
    Posted - 2005.07.26 10:45:00 - [22]
     

    Edited by: Dahin on 26/07/2005 10:48:23
    Originally by: PhoenixDawn
    Scan probes are the biggest rip off in the entire game, IMO. They simply do not work at ALL.

    Example:
    I'm in a system that is 36au across and I have 3 of my partners in the system with BS, and a target BS.

    we fly around scanning from planets/moons, narrowing down the location of our target to about 4au. So I launch 3 12au probes at the closest moon and proceed to scan for battleships.

    Results: No Results.



    This is quite natural, look at my previous reply, stacking 3x12au is EXACTLY the same as stacking 3x3au ones, you just get a bigger deviation in the result. Stacking is based on the "bonus 1au on each axis", so it matters not what probes you're using.

    Originally by: PhoenixDawn

    Okay, WTF? I've got a BS sitting 50km from the probes, 2 other BS in my fleet sitting on gates, and this other one parked in the same spot for over 10 minutes. And the scan probes find NOTHING? I have completely wasted 2 months of training to use the probes effectively, and they just don't work.


    This is weird, but I remember trying the same thing some time ago. Ofc the 2bs sitting on the gates are the same as in the first quote, the 3rd one next to you would be weird. If this is true, one can generalize to say that probes can't find a ship that is within the same grid as you when you start the scan. Note that I didn't say "same grid as probes", because I do that quite often to get insta-warps on sniper positions, hence I have 3x3au stacked on gates quite oftenly. I just move off the gate to decloak in order to start the scan.

    Originally by: PhoenixDawn

    So we decide to test in another system, this one empty except for a few rats. It's 40 or so au across, and one of my corp mates parks a ship at a moon. He just lets it sit there, not moving. 20au away I launch 48 au probes and scan for battleships.

    NO RESULTS.


    See quote no1.


    As for the rest, I do believe that you may have have stumbled upon a UI issue when scanning: NEVER WARP AFTER YOU START THE SCAN!
    The UI resets, gives you the previous result and when the scan finishes you still see the previous result regardles of what should be on post-scan (no targets or new result).

    EDIT: wtf is wrong with me and typos... just saw my previous replies and I think I'm slightly dyslectic.

    Tar om
    Minmatar
    Octavian Vanguard
    Posted - 2005.07.26 12:07:00 - [23]
     

    Dahin, how about running an ingame school?
    I don't have the time to figure all this stuff out, but I'd be a good pupil...

    Pyr8
    Connoisseurs Of Fine Asian Ladies
    Posted - 2005.07.26 12:13:00 - [24]
     

    The scan probes work fine, I don't tend to use anything other than the 3AU type tho.


    The skill is in the scanners, get the prey to within 1AU ( 160,000,000km ) and then drop 3 probes in the same placeYARRRR!!


    Now why did I tell everyone thatQuestion


    Asnett
    Posted - 2005.07.26 15:52:00 - [25]
     

    so you can't actually use them well within 3au? you have to be 1au? That sucks. It's hard getting 1au away with a cov op ship.

    Farjung
    Gallente
    TAOSP
    Posted - 2005.07.26 16:15:00 - [26]
     

    Originally by: Dahin

    You just need to get accomodated with their perks. Practice makes perfect.
    Since the time of my first post, I have trained in super-safespot finding (F11) and have managed to cut down my average time to 15mins for those Twisted Evil



    Any hints you could offer concerning busting out of system safes would be much appreciated, I've been finding observators extremely random :(.

    Harlequinn
    Caldari
    Confederation of Red Moon
    Red Moon Federation
    Posted - 2005.07.26 17:21:00 - [27]
     

    Edited by: Harlequinn on 26/07/2005 18:02:46
    Edited by: Harlequinn on 26/07/2005 18:01:18
    Quote:
    The skill is in the scanners, get the prey to within 1AU ( 160,000,000km ) and then drop 3 probes in the same place


    IMO this is not a reliable way to scan, 1 AU is to great a distance to get results 100% of the time. 80 million KM is about where the results become automatic, otherwise any variation along the z-axis can make the probe's scan fail.


    I also would like any advice on using the largest probes, as I am currently training up level 5 astrometrics. If they use the same "planar" disc-shaped scanning method, then I could see why they would be very difficult to use. I estimate the disc is about half an AU perpendicular along the z-axis of the plane formed by the triangle the probes make or in the case of the deep-space probes the x-y plane, so any slight adjustment on a F11 BM along the z-axis could hypothetically render the long range probes useless.

    Pyr8
    Connoisseurs Of Fine Asian Ladies
    Posted - 2005.07.27 08:55:00 - [28]
     

    The problem I find personally is that if you don't get the scan done fast enough the target ship tends to move away, that is why I aim to get the target within 1AU. If I first used a 12AU to get close then a 1AU to find the target it would just take too long.

    By using the scanner I can generally get close enough pretty quickly, and more often than not find the target. But i appreciate its not 100%.

    You also have to remember that 1AU is quite a large area, so getting a target in that radius is not really all that difficult.. you just need to be good with the scanner and know your distances.


    Lysithea
    Playboy Enterprises
    Posted - 2005.08.12 01:02:00 - [29]
     

    What the hell am I doing wrong?

    I found an indy floating in space and I was able to get 170k Km from it (1.13 AU). I know exactly which direction it is in and I can point right at it. I dropped three 3 AU probes on two different occasions.

    First time, I dropped them quite far from each other (maybe 100km) in a rough triangle thinking I may need a small bit of triangulation.

    Second time, I dropped them much closer together (seeing as how someone said he drops them at the same place)

    Both times I was given NO RESULT!

    What am I doing wrong?

    Sveldt
    Posted - 2005.08.19 06:10:00 - [30]
     

    Sounds like you're not scanning for the proper ship type... I guarantee that both ways you'd tried scanning work. I've just done it myself.


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