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blankseplocked How do you control the risks of recruiting into an industrial corp?
 
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Ravenclaw2kk
Minmatar
Blue Republic
Posted - 2011.07.31 06:04:00 - [31]
 

If someone were to cancel all your billions of industry jobs, you'd hope that the GM's would veiw this as greifing which is not allowed in the rules. Unless the said person were to try to ransom the industry jobs in question i'd be pretty confident that a GM would step in and replace said jobs.

It might be worth sending a message to GMs asking wheter the practice of cancelling a corps whole industry queue (without gaining any profit) would be considered greifing or not. However, i don't see how it wouldn't.

Celeritas 5k
Connoisseurs of Candid Coitus
Posted - 2011.08.01 01:47:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Ravenclaw2kk
If someone were to cancel all your billions of industry jobs, you'd hope that the GM's would veiw this as greifing which is not allowed in the rules. Unless the said person were to try to ransom the industry jobs in question i'd be pretty confident that a GM would step in and replace said jobs.

It might be worth sending a message to GMs asking wheter the practice of cancelling a corps whole industry queue (without gaining any profit) would be considered greifing or not. However, i don't see how it wouldn't.


I give it... 1 to 3 odds that you get reimbursed in this situation.

Lord Zyte
Caldari
The Urben Saints
Posted - 2011.08.01 07:02:00 - [33]
 

Also a returning old vet, who has seen much of the chaos that greifing, spies and general malfeasance can cause ....


Eve is like that. Its part of its glory in a way, though i do wish there were better tools for people on the defensive side of the equation, at least to make it more of an arms race more than a question of who can con the most people.

Some of the suggestions above make sense. A free Market approach makes more sense in a corporation rather than a communist regulated approach for 2 reasons.

1. Eve is a game and peoples commitment will have more fluidity than in real life. Fact is if my girlfriend wants to shank, i'm going to drop what i'm doing and go shank her, even if my ship is stuck in space during a fleet op. Thats part of what makes eve great, but also frustrating. Its parallel to real life does not allow for life exceptions. At two occasions in my eve career i was a major player in a small growing alliance, and at both times the pressure and time commitment of my new position wasn't worth it, and i had to walk away.

2. Sun Tzu said that you use drums in battle to ensure the brave do not advance alone, and the cowardly to not advance behind, and that is very true. By using a market system of prices and quota's, you encourage the casual and hardcore among your members to each contribute some, and ensure each is rewarded for even the smallest of the their efforts. You'll spend more on the book keeping side, but if your an industrial corp leader and you want to be succesful, thats what you need to do.

Controlling access to power is important. And eve is a game of years. If you stay a small enough fry, people won't commit that time to gain access to anything. Having a few well trusted helpers is ok, but don't give anyone, any access they don't need, and for most worker bee's most access isn't warrented. Only you or a trusted few should ever move bulk material, or use Red Frog o move your crap to market. Everything else should be stuff for cash. Nothing else.

Oli York
Posted - 2011.08.01 23:46:00 - [34]
 

I think while I like how people can rip each other off in this game, not being able to assign permissions effectively cripples corp management. Take any real life corporation for example, every person in teh business has limited roles.

Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.02 00:02:00 - [35]
 

Edited by: Barbara Nichole on 02/08/2011 00:02:57

Every applicant is a spy. As x-files secret informers warn "trust no one".
Very few people in my corp have any rights who have not been in the corp for over 5 years.



Litair
Posted - 2011.08.02 01:42:00 - [36]
 

Yes it is quite true, you can't really trust anyone in EVE.. Your most trusted friend might turn out to be a deeply undercover rat any time, people are completely shameless and without any resemblance of moral integrity.
Personally I tend to trust and befriend people, if I can afford losing whatever is at stake.

When it comes to it, it's a game of chance, if you want to completely remove the risk of getting anally ****d, then you'll never get out of the station.. you just really have to consider the scale of the risks you're taking and if you can manage the worst case scenario.
Of course the old API inspection can weed out the most obvious spies and malicious individuals, possibly even demand the full API to go them through in detail, which let you read all the chat and mail logs on their characters.
Just remember you must be professional and "not judge"/ignore their private erotic mails, and keep strictly to what's relevant. That is the role of the true leader.

Celeritas 5k
Connoisseurs of Candid Coitus
Posted - 2011.08.02 04:27:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Litair
Yes it is quite true, you can't really trust anyone in EVE.. Your most trusted friend might turn out to be a deeply undercover rat any time, people are completely shameless and without any resemblance of moral integrity.
Personally I tend to trust and befriend people, if I can afford losing whatever is at stake.

When it comes to it, it's a game of chance, if you want to completely remove the risk of getting anally ****d, then you'll never get out of the station.. you just really have to consider the scale of the risks you're taking and if you can manage the worst case scenario.
Of course the old API inspection can weed out the most obvious spies and malicious individuals, possibly even demand the full API to go them through in detail, which let you read all the chat and mail logs on their characters.
Just remember you must be professional and "not judge"/ignore their private erotic mails, and keep strictly to what's relevant. That is the role of the true leader.


Nobody's saying you should trust anyone in EVE, which is precisely the problem. Game mechanics FORCE you to place far too much trust in new members; it's one thing when your own stupidity leads to corp theft, it's quite another when the game renders you unable to protect yourself.

Demanding full API keys from every member is not a valid solution.

Litair
Posted - 2011.08.02 12:34:00 - [38]
 

Edited by: Litair on 02/08/2011 12:36:09
Originally by: Celeritas 5k

Nobody's saying you should trust anyone in EVE, which is precisely the problem. Game mechanics FORCE you to place far too much trust in new members; it's one thing when your own stupidity leads to corp theft, it's quite another when the game renders you unable to protect yourself.

Demanding full API keys from every member is not a valid solution.


Well.. I was in a corp where it was demanded, and ironically it seemed I was the only one who wasn't entirely happy about it.

Velicitia
Gallente
Open Designs
Posted - 2011.08.02 13:00:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Celeritas 5k

Demanding full API keys from every member is not a valid solution.


well, full API keys might be a bit much (unless they're big/an alliance/etc) ... but API checks are about the only good way to check up on a player ...

Jdestars
Stars Research systems Incorporation
Posted - 2011.08.02 16:15:00 - [40]
 

Quote:

The model I was proposing is essentially something like-- I produce all of the reaction materials and sell them to Joe. Joe uses them to produce T2 components and sells them to Jack. John buys minerals and produces T1 hulls and sells them to Jack. Jesse buys datacores and BPOs and runs invention jobs and sells the prints to Jack. Jack assembles the pieces and sells the T2 ships. In reality, its not much different from working with total strangers through the markets. However, you can take advantage of the relationships to set profits, set prices, guarantee regular deliveries and production schedules, and maybe most importantly NOT compete against each other in the final sales of the ships, which can take a lot of the price pressures off of everyone involved.

i use same mechanical with my corporation , organized in departementalize ..
i use this model business for a kind of analytic wallet .

but there are only my alt in corporation .
a other approach its to maket a holding which have all the bpo and make copy , resell copy to your corporation which have member unsecured , organize in division for limit the risk .
but risk 0 dont exist

Kethas Protagonist
Protagonist Ventures
Posted - 2011.08.03 06:05:00 - [41]
 

I'm seriously considering asking for full API's from recruits and current members. To quote from a recent mail to prospective members:

Originally by: Me
2) What security and recruitment procedures and membership fees are appropriate and acceptable to you as a potential member corp?

...

I'm seriously considering requiring a current full API key. I acknowledge that this raises privacy concerns. I also acknowledge that it won't make us 100% immune to spying, since any competent spy runs multiple accounts anyway. It would, however, guarantee that, in the event of a dispute between member corps, I'd be able to serve as an independent arbitrator. I could check, for example, if Alex really did pay Bob for that shipment of battleships or if Charlie's alt is undercutting Derek after Derek talked to him about which markets he works in. I'm open to discuss this, but I think the advantages outweigh the negatives. I'd be willing to write up a policy limiting when and how I could publicize information revealed by the full API checks.



I go over the tradeoffs above. I think it's a net gain, but of course I'm biased since I'd be the guy snooping around in other people's accounts, not vice versa. Thoughts?

clixor
Celluloid Gurus
Posted - 2011.08.03 07:53:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Kethas Protagonist


I go over the tradeoffs above. I think it's a net gain, but of course I'm biased since I'd be the guy snooping around in other people's accounts, not vice versa. Thoughts?


If you want to demand an Full API, you are free to do so ofcourse and enthousiastic recruits wouldn't have much trouble with that i guess. Escpecially as they can change the key if they leave the corp or whatever.

The thing is, that the recruit IS a spy or potential thief (one with a few braincells anyway). They wouldn't have any connections with other characters and the full API wouldn't provide you with more useful information other than in the scenarios you described in your mail.

We're all discussing workarounds for something that should be FIXED in a structural matter. For instance contracting bpc's etc. is all a lot of work for minimal return. I could use the same time for putting up my own market orders etc.etc.

The irony is that i, and other here, cleary WANT to collaborate with others which is a goal in a MMO after all. Perhaps we as CEO's should start to work together or something, form a cartel. Even that is much easier and safer than recruiting grunts.

Daveion Steel
Gallente
6thsense Corp
Broken Chains Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.03 20:00:00 - [43]
 

'The classic example of this is the Factory Manager role. If I want a new member to be able to initiate manufacturing or research jobs, a must-have for players in an industrial corp, I must also give them the ability to cancel every running corp job and grief us for untold billions in wasted materials (with no way to identify the griefer, might I add).'

Just a thought, but there is a way of doing this, a work around if you like.

Keep the role just to your most trusted staff all week, and then set up a shift system with that title so that other members have a window of opertunity to place manufacture jobs etc, say a window of 24 hours and then they loose that title and the next member receives it.

This ofc means you will have to manage the titles and be online for the change over to the next member, but at least you will know if all your jobs have been canceled and be 99% certain on who was responsible.

Another way would be to just give out the title/role to one member at a time and revoke it after they have finished, passing it on to the next member that is ready to manufacture.

Good luck in your ventures and fly safe.

Asm Khurelem
Open University of Celestial Hardship
Art of War Alliance
Posted - 2011.08.03 20:18:00 - [44]
 

Nothing wrong with making an NDA, just get people to sign and scan in an NDA with proof of their identity when they join the orp. They'll hate you for it though! :D

Kethas Protagonist
Protagonist Ventures
Posted - 2011.08.15 20:00:00 - [45]
 

Thank you all for the great thread. I'll be forming an indy alliance along the lines of what was discussed here after I finish launching my current project. I'll need a couple days to design the interviews and vetting process, and I still intend to have a chat with an RO or three from EVE Uni, but that shouldn't take long.

I even have an alliance name and ticker picked out. I'm surprised they were still available, to be honest. (No, I'm not telling.)

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2011.08.16 07:49:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: macpen
BTW what is eve rule #1????

I personally like the idea of giving kits to the guys.
I would contract just the BPC, not the material and would set up a contract for buying back the goods on a base cost + production fee (5% fee on top of raw components and cost of production).
You even can set up a Excel in advance that all people who are interested can see the numbers and can choose is they want to share.
So anybody can produce anywhere but have to haul it to a major hub where yiu pick up the goods on transport contracts.
After a while you might ask them to join in.

I would do that if I where interested as well if I where on the other side.
Cheers
Macpen


EVE Rules
1.) Dont trust anybody.
2.) Dont trust anybody.
3.) Dont trust anybody.
4.) Go back and read rules 1-3.YARRRR!!


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