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Kethas Protagonist
Protagonist Ventures
Posted - 2011.07.25 08:56:00 - [1]
 

Hello, S&I. I'm an industrialist, and I have a problem. Well, two problems.

For the past several months I've run a hisec manufacturing corp. It's been fun, I'm not complaining - players trading at our hubs have enjoyed cheaper, more reliably-stocked products, and Protagonist Ventures is very good at what it does.

Any industry requires inputs to run. That includes the obvious ones - capital, skills - but also technical skills, motivation, and even IQ. Recently, and in the past month in particular, I've come to realize that the most valuable input is the one you can't create more of - time. We have plenty of cash, skills, and insight into how EVE industry works, but we're running out of man-hours. We need to recruit. That's where the problems crop up.

First: EVE's mechanics hamstring CEOs trying to recruit into an industrial corp safely. The classic example of this is the Factory Manager role. If I want a new member to be able to initiate manufacturing or research jobs, a must-have for players in an industrial corp, I must also give them the ability to cancel every running corp job and grief us for untold billions in wasted materials (with no way to identify the griefer, might I add). I can think of other examples - the inability to limit corp wallet transfers, the inability to rescind CONCORD's permission to aggress corpmates in hisec, the inability to track secure container withdrawals, etc. - but the Factory Manager one seems the most egregious.

I can think of workarounds (keep each member in their own corp, or demand a security payment from each member equal or greater than the total value of corp assets), but they seem rather draconian and/or defeat the purpose of playing together as corpmates. How would you suggest I minimize the ability of new, untrusted corp members to use EVE's mechanics to grief an industrial corp? Can a corp recruit in such a fashion as to let new members participate in research and industry while not exposing themselves to being wiped out overnight?

Second: Entirely aside from any EVE-specific mechanics concern, by recruiting into a business run on intellectual property, you risk new members walking off with your business secrets. Take PI, for instance. We've spent a lot of time figuring out how PI works, what makes it profitable, whether extraction, processing, or a mix is best, what tradeoffs exist, how you set up a planet "well" and how that changes (or doesn't) when your skills do, etc. etc. In short, we've sunk a ton of time into figuring out how to run PI "optimally." If we recruited new members, the first thing we'd want to do is share with them everything we've discovered so far, a) so they could immediately apply our insights to their own planets, and b) so they could start contributing to the corp-wide discussion on how to improve our understanding of PI even further.

That's the problem, though. We can't enforce non-disclosure agreements. We can't enforce non-compete clauses. Once we let a new member peek under the hood, we can't keep them from walking off with our up-to-date understanding of PI (or manufacturing, or invention, or wormhole colonization, or Titan production) and creating their own corp, or worse, staying and selling our knowledge and hard work to competitors under the table. How would you suggest I strike a balance between fostering open discussion of how to excel at industry and minimizing the ability of new (or old) members to walk off with the hard work of my corpmates? If that's impossible, how would you suggest I encourage people to stay with the corp and contribute, instead of leaving, stealing our knowledge, and competing?

...

Kethas Protagonist
Protagonist Ventures
Posted - 2011.07.25 08:59:00 - [2]
 

...

Thanks. I know this will sound melodramatic, but this stuff actually keeps me up at night. I know there are tens, or hundreds, or maybe even thousands of smart, motivated new players out there that want to get involved in industry and make EVE's economy healthier and more robust (while making tons of cash themselves, of course). I know they'd benefit enormously, both in wealth and in enjoyment of the game, from having both the infrastructure and the tutelage of an established corp. Similarly, Protagonist Ventures would benefit from having more voices (and more man-hours) to throw at the problem of figuring out the best way to manufacture T2 ammo, or whether module or ship invention makes the most sense. It's very, very mutually beneficial, and getting more and more people together tend to make a game more enjoyable. I'm trying to figure out how to avoid the pitfalls and make it work.

If you've ever spent hours polishing off an invention spreadsheet, or flying through four different regions picking out planets for PI, and wondered, "Hasn't anyone done this stuff before? Why do I have to reinvent the wheel?", well, you're right. You're absolutely right. (And, if I may be allowed a small plug without being punted off into the recruitment forum, Protagonist Ventures may be the right corp for you.) I think the best way to tackle industry, just like PvP, is with a large community of experienced, motivated people, instead of islands of two or three of them, each struggling blindly in isolation. This is an MMO, not a spreadsheet simulator. (This is the part where I adopt a poker face and attempt to stifle my laughter.) I'd like to put the Massively Multiplayer into, well, industry. I'm just having trouble figuring out how to do so without shooting my corp in both of its large, pudgy corp feet.

Dasola
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.25 09:07:00 - [3]
 

Well with knoledge, that you really cant lockdown. If someone wants to steal secret they have access to, you really cant stop them.

Other ingame assets, departmentalize them. Does researched need access to manufacturing division? probably not, etc... BPO can be locked down, etc...

Personally i believe that people stay in corp as long as they feel they benefit being in corporation someway. What different people feel is benefit varies to person to person. Having fun is good start. Makeing tons of isk is bonus after that.

Zithro Max
Posted - 2011.07.25 13:09:00 - [4]
 

If you are looking for more people, I am looking to get into come industry. I'm mainly a high sec Hulk miner at the moment, but I am training up my production skills, let me know if you are interested.

That being said, it seems like a detailed interview process is the only good way to avoid the difficulties that you are talking about, unfortunately it's not a great solution.

Gavic
SAKUMA DROP
ANAHEIM ELECTRONICS Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.25 14:06:00 - [5]
 

CCP has a long list of things that a broken but have been deemed 'intended mechanics' for a long while.

CORP ROLE MANAGEMENT is one of those mechanics.

They released a video about "HOW TO STEAL BILLIONS OF ISK FROM AN ALLIANCE" and wiped their hands clean of corp-management.

They're far too busy fighting their self-induced server-crashing-lag.

You think running a manufacturing corp is hard? Try taking your manufacturing corp into a wormhole where everyone has to share POS's.


Lauren Hellfury
Full Pocket Aggro
Posted - 2011.07.25 20:01:00 - [6]
 

   A couple of things have already been touched upon that are quite important. Firstly so long as people have a reason to want to stay and help then they will, it is those that join with the intention of ripping you off and those that lose interest and become bored and then start thinking about ripping you off where the problems will come in.
   If you have a wealth of knowledge of different areas that you can and are prepared to share then you already have the means to encourage people to want to stay and help.

   Secondly there is the matter of divisions. Not just the question of who has access to which hangar or which wallet but more importantly the ability to restrict roles and access to specific locations. This will mean that you need to create more corp offices and perhaps spread things around a bit more which will increase your overheads. I'd also want to do some testing on SISI to make sure that it works as expected, or at least that expectations match CCPs ideas on "as intended". Laughing

   You will yourself know which of your lines are the slow and steady lower end types and these are the ones that you should look to outsource first as this will leave you free to pursue the challenges of finding extra items/locations etc. You have also previously stated that you are able to control, to an extent, the markets for some of the items that you produce. These are also the items that you can look to outsource since if the corp-member responsible for them does run off with the idea and sets up in competition you already know how to work them over on it. Twisted Evil

   Possibly the biggest danger that you will face will be opening up the knowledge of the location of your POS towers. Depending on how critical they are to the way you operate you may wish to consider splitting that side off either to a separate alt corp or by forming an alliance with that corp so that you can still operate research from the main corp.
   If you are using the towers both for research and for manufacture then maybe look towards reconfiguring them so that you have towers purely for research and purely for manufacture and split accordingly.

   Finally, use your knowledge from MD to help you in this. Treat the new members as initial unsecured offerings and apply similar thinking in the way you deal with them. Perform your due diligence on those that you are interested in recruiting and generate an informed opinion regards the potential returns you can make from investing in them versus the risk you face from that investment. You *will* get it wrong occasionally and suffer a loss just look to come out ahead overall.

   As usual, if you want to discuss this further just yell at me in-game. Very Happy

Celeritas 5k
Connoisseurs of Candid Coitus
Posted - 2011.07.25 23:00:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Celeritas 5k on 25/07/2011 23:01:09
I'm in the same shoes as the OP, and it's really quite a paradoxical situation. One character can't sustain a decent production op, but it's impossible to do it as a group in any secure way. The only failsafe solutions are to use a bunch of alts, or only recruit people you've known for years and can trust.


As said before, compartmentalization helps, and I keep excess materials in a separate stockpile hangar to lessen the potential loss. Mostly my aim is to tip the pros vs. cons question in our favor, and pay members well enough that it's in their benefit to stick around.

CCP any time you want to overhaul the corp roles (hell, the entire corp management interface) that'd be thuper.

Anya Ohaya
Posted - 2011.07.26 07:01:00 - [8]
 

A lot (most?) of game activity can be done cooperatively without members being in the same corp.

Most noob activity can be done without any POS access.

If they need POSs, spawn a bunch of 1 person corps, get their standings up (by shuffling members), anchor some POS's for those corps (while they have only high standing members) and then recruit.

Segment your noobs into the corps with less valuable assets.

Erastos
Posted - 2011.07.26 17:10:00 - [9]
 

I only started playing eve 2 months ago and I'm really interested in mining and industry. Industrious would probably be the right word to describe me, lol. Anyways, from my experience from other games I've noticed that the general douchebags that tend to stab you in the back usually don't have a mic and never reveal any details about their life (facebook profile, where they live, articles written, etc). Try to establish a relationship with your corp members. One would have to be incredibly unscrupulous to spend hours voice chatting with you, sharing stories and helping you out if one's only intention from the beginning was to steal from you in a video game.

I doubt my skill points are anywhere near enough to be able to join your corp but best of luck with your endeavours in the future.

Mervent
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.26 17:40:00 - [10]
 

My first thought was for you to contact Eve University. From what I have heard numerous times is their very intense and in-depth interview process for new members. They might share some tips or things you can do to hire the right people.

Best of luck.

Kelduum Revaan
EVE University
Ivy League
Posted - 2011.07.26 18:14:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Mervent
My first thought was for you to contact Eve University. From what I have heard numerous times is their very intense and in-depth interview process for new members...


We used to, but its less drastic now, at least for basic recruiting.

However, if you only want to recruit people who are fairly serious, and 'dissuade' anyone looking to waste your time/money, feel free to look out our current recruiting process, and go though our application questionnaire to see the kind of things we ask.

The only real way to ensure you have security it to have something of the members they may not want you to make public, such as API data and/or identities of alts. Collect that info and ensure you only provide assets worth less than the value of their account - make it not worth their while to steal anything from you based on the cost of replacing their account.

Unfortunately this can be a major problem in EVE, especially with the Industry roles as they currently are.

Mortimer Civeri
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2011.07.26 22:37:00 - [12]
 

Simple solution, DON'T GIVE THEM ROLES.

Make corp/alliance contract parts kits, at cost, with enough materials and a BPC to produce what you want. Have production goals that are easy for dedicated players to meet. Have a buy back program for the finished goods at cost + a certain percentage. Keep track of the heavy producers, especially the ones not buying the kits as much(they have found a source of materials and a BPO/BPC cheaper than you could), and those that consistently exceed the production goals. After a while of watching them(3-6 months)for suspicious activity, then ask them if they want to have roles/access to the corp production assets once you have made up your mind that they would be a valuable asset to your organization.

For PI, just have production quotas. No need to give secrets out until they prove they can meet goals and are trusted. If they exceed quotas, ask them how they are set up, maybe they will teach you something about improving your setups efficiency.

Sure it is a pain in the arse to keep up the parts kits up on contracts, but you will have compartmentalized any losses. Even if one griefer manages to buy out all the kits, all you are out is materials and time to source more, all he is out is money. Those that you do find worthy, to grant roles to, are already dedicated to your organization, meet/exceed production goals, and with any luck will have sourced cheaper materials.

Mara Villoso
Posted - 2011.07.26 23:48:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Mortimer Civeri
Good Stuff

The variation on Mortimer's theme is to use a confederation of corps. Each one produces something for the others. You agree to price/profit percentages. The component producers acquire their initial goods to feed the pipeline, the final producers sell it. Everyone in between gets their cut as it they sell it to the next person in the pipeline. Essentially, its what many of the electronics manufacturers in certain areas of China use. They cluster in a city, take advantage of logistical efficiencies and economies of scale while also staying separate. Advantages of scale are shared; individual risks are not.

Zombie Jeebus
Amarr
Alt Holdings llc
Posted - 2011.07.27 05:56:00 - [14]
 

The first step I could recommend is keeping your bpo, maybe even expensive bpc, in hangar division set to read only for everyone but you. This allows member to build from them without having a chance to steal them. You just have to teach them how to drop the minerals into the hangar with the bp (input hangar) and set the output to a hangar division they have the roles to take from, so they can retrieve the finished product. (Iirc this works fine for research as well, just have them train the proper skill for remote research.)

If you are worried about new members cancelling jobs then instead of letting them have the factory role, as was by someone else, give them bpc and let them start the jobs on a personal level instead of for the corp. Once they've put in the time and shown that you can trust them you can slowly give more access as you see fit, with factory manager being one of the last steps.

Stealing from secure cans... it does suck that the logs only show lock/unlock/configure and not give/take but if you are really paranoid and want to deal with the hassle, then keep the items in the cans locked and tell everyone to relock after taking. This lets you visit the logs and see who unlocked what to take from it and if they forgot to relock it. If they fail to lock when they are done and stuff comes up missing.. they were the last to access it and responsible.

As far as people learning your methods and then leaving.. there's not really anything you can do but hope Rolling Eyes or provide incentives to keep them happy where they are.

Rip Minner
Gallente
ARMITAGE Logistics Salvage and Industries
Posted - 2011.07.27 07:21:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Rip Minner on 27/07/2011 07:31:20

The best soultion is to form a corp with guys you know in real life so they dont screw you over as they have to actully come face to face with you again. Then just recuite miners and keep on recuiting and alts are your friends each acount can have 3 toons dont forget that.ugh


And keep in mind on the training and then walking out is a problem with every corp from Industry to PVE to PVP and so on. People just get bored most of the time and move on to something alse. Ya they probly use some of what they learned to help them fund what ever there doing now like as in pvp or what ever. I mean I used PVE myself and I learned how to run missions realy well in a corp. that do's most nothing but mission and sale data cores.

p.s. Ya I do hear ya on the PI thing though it's very time consuming colecting data on that one. We working on the same thing though were puting it off on alts that mainly stay in one part of space to free are mains up for moblity. How ever thats for pvp reasons. This mite not be a problem for you though.



clixor
Celluloid Gurus
Posted - 2011.07.27 10:08:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Rip Minner

The best soultion is to form a corp with guys you know in real life so they dont screw you over as they have to actully come face to face with you again.



That's no solution. It's ridiculous that in a MMO where the goal is to meet people INGAME, there are no proper game mechanics to deal with Corp security. The whole problem is, a person can nice, friendly, thrustworthly, but everyone has their price. You only have to hang around in MD for a short time to figure that out.

What does matter though what the indy corp is setup to do, i can image an indy corp with a 'greater good' (say, producing for an alliance) the goals are not primarily isk printing.

Ana Vyr
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.27 14:16:00 - [17]
 

EvE Rule #2: Do not trust anyone.

What an awesome rule for an MMO in which you can't do squat solo worth speaking of. The bottom line is that you have to trust somebody to get anything done, but the game mechanics make it so utterly easy to be griefed by the folks you are forced to trust. The community and devs glorify "tear collecting" and corp espionage at every turn, too.

macpen
Posted - 2011.07.27 16:25:00 - [18]
 

BTW what is eve rule #1????

I personally like the idea of giving kits to the guys.
I would contract just the BPC, not the material and would set up a contract for buying back the goods on a base cost + production fee (5% fee on top of raw components and cost of production).
You even can set up a Excel in advance that all people who are interested can see the numbers and can choose is they want to share.
So anybody can produce anywhere but have to haul it to a major hub where yiu pick up the goods on transport contracts.
After a while you might ask them to join in.

I would do that if I where interested as well if I where on the other side.
Cheers
Macpen

Celeritas 5k
Connoisseurs of Candid Coitus
Posted - 2011.07.27 17:40:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: macpen
BTW what is eve rule #1????

I personally like the idea of giving kits to the guys.
I would contract just the BPC, not the material and would set up a contract for buying back the goods on a base cost + production fee (5% fee on top of raw components and cost of production).
You even can set up a Excel in advance that all people who are interested can see the numbers and can choose is they want to share.
So anybody can produce anywhere but have to haul it to a major hub where yiu pick up the goods on transport contracts.
After a while you might ask them to join in.

I would do that if I where interested as well if I where on the other side.
Cheers
Macpen


So... what exactly is the advantage to the member here? He has to gather materials, build them, and haul the item to a market hub, and he still loses a cut of his profits. All you've done for him is sell him a BPC, so why not just make a corp that sells BPC's on contract?

Mortimer Civeri
Gallente
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2011.07.27 20:51:00 - [20]
 

That is the beauty of a packaged parts kit. Every thing is there, you just need someone to use his manufacturing slots to produce it. No need for roles, and if you are worried about someone taking off with the kits, and selling the product themselves, just attach a 20% of projected profit markup to the kits. Make sure your buy back program covers any markup and production fees of the kits, but still leaves some room for you to profit. Either way you still make some profit.

macpen
Posted - 2011.07.28 11:04:00 - [21]
 

The benefit for the industrialist is the fact that he can sell the complete bunch.
He will do this if all his sell orders are filled and not sold out and while he has free capacity on production slots.
The benefit for the corp is that they keep their secrets.

In RL we call that outside processing or sub contracting. There is a beautiful German word for thst. But I dont want to bother you with that

Cheers
Macpen

Xavier Baudin
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.28 11:15:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: macpen
BTW what is eve rule #1????

I personally like the idea of giving kits to the guys.
I would contract just the BPC, not the material and would set up a contract for buying back the goods on a base cost + production fee (5% fee on top of raw components and cost of production).
You even can set up a Excel in advance that all people who are interested can see the numbers and can choose is they want to share.
So anybody can produce anywhere but have to haul it to a major hub where yiu pick up the goods on transport contracts.
After a while you might ask them to join in.

I would do that if I where interested as well if I where on the other side.
Cheers
Macpen


Couldn't agree more. Recruit a bunch of freelancers and have those work for you when you need them. Gives everyone more freedom and flexibility.

I, as a restarting old player, would also be interested in a setup like this. I bet there would be more.

Kim Xiuying
Posted - 2011.07.28 12:04:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Xavier Baudin
Originally by: macpen
BTW what is eve rule #1????

I personally like the idea of giving kits to the guys.
I would contract just the BPC, not the material and would set up a contract for buying back the goods on a base cost + production fee (5% fee on top of raw components and cost of production).
You even can set up a Excel in advance that all people who are interested can see the numbers and can choose is they want to share.
So anybody can produce anywhere but have to haul it to a major hub where yiu pick up the goods on transport contracts.
After a while you might ask them to join in.

I would do that if I where interested as well if I where on the other side.
Cheers
Macpen


Couldn't agree more. Recruit a bunch of freelancers and have those work for you when you need them. Gives everyone more freedom and flexibility.

I, as a restarting old player, would also be interested in a setup like this. I bet there would be more.

I like the idea. I'm new to manufacturing but babysitting my sell orders is already getting on my nerves, so selling my products to a corp would be much more appealing even if my profit would be lower.

Pachira Lotus
Posted - 2011.07.28 17:19:00 - [24]
 

Mmm ye S&I security sucks big time... whole thing needs abig over haul Rolling Eyes

But ya can do this...

Don't give any corp members role for factory manager. you only need one person to do that.

Ya give em rent factory slot or copy/me/pe slot etc and give em rights to view hanger they drop stuff in at pos.

The CEO of pos alt/member what ever does all the work collecting finshed jobs etc and drops in members hanger via factory manager role, ye its a lot of work for some one but does work.

This eleminates seperate hangers for various members/locations of pos in different region plus access rights.

Celeritas 5k
Connoisseurs of Candid Coitus
Posted - 2011.07.29 02:13:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Pachira Lotus
Mmm ye S&I security sucks big time... whole thing needs abig over haul Rolling Eyes

But ya can do this...

Don't give any corp members role for factory manager. you only need one person to do that.

Ya give em rent factory slot or copy/me/pe slot etc and give em rights to view hanger they drop stuff in at pos.

The CEO of pos alt/member what ever does all the work collecting finshed jobs etc and drops in members hanger via factory manager role, ye its a lot of work for some one but does work.

This eleminates seperate hangers for various members/locations of pos in different region plus access rights.


You need factory manager to rent a slot on POS equipment (Not sure about a station.) You also need both 'view' and 'take' in order to build from a hangar, view alone is not sufficient.

Kethas Protagonist
Protagonist Ventures
Posted - 2011.07.29 04:56:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Kethas Protagonist on 29/07/2011 05:07:15
Thanks, everyone, for the (refreshingly exhaustive) discussion. I have indeed been paying close attention - sorry for not replying earlier, I've been even busier than usual recently (which is a good thing, right?). First, let me reply to some posters in particular:

Originally by: Zithro Max
If you are looking for more people, I am looking to get into come industry. I'm mainly a high sec Hulk miner at the moment, but I am training up my production skills, let me know if you are interested.


Honestly, I couldn't care less how rich/skilled/otherwise established a player is. Four months ago I was where you are (probably worse off, actually, if you can fly a Hulk). I'm looking for people that are clever, numerically literate, and who get excited about providing what people need, where and when they need it, at prices they can afford (and getting rich in the process), and who have ideas on how to turn around, once wealthy, and use that money to improve New Eden. Everything else, either I or time can give you. Besides, I get warm, fuzzy feelings from watching (or being) an underdog taking out the Established Elite. I'll be in touch.

Originally by: Gavic
CCP ... released a video about "HOW TO STEAL BILLIONS OF ISK FROM AN ALLIANCE" and wiped their hands clean of corp-management.


Any chance you have a link? Know your enemy and whatnot.

Originally by: Lauren Hellfury
Possibly the biggest danger that you will face will be opening up the knowledge of the location of your POS towers.


I don't understand. If we're not at war, then I don't particularly care if somebody knows where I operate. If we are at war, for whatever reason, I'm just a locator agent away from being found (within a couple jumps, at least, at which point they can just start checking individual moons). I don't see how keeping my POS tower(s) location(s) a secret protects me.

Originally by: Celeritas 5k
I'm in the same shoes as the OP, and it's really quite a paradoxical situation.


Did you end up finding a corp/alliance you liked, or are you still looking?

Originally by: Erastos
I doubt my skill points are anywhere near enough to be able to join your corp but best of luck with your endeavours in the future.


See my comment to Zithro above. If you're genuinely interested in getting heavily invested in industry, we should talk.

----------

After reading the rest of the replies about what you can and can't do to bring people into a corp safely, my thinking is now along these lines:

1) I don't like the "BPC/material packet" idea. I'm not looking to hire extra manufacturing slots - I have alts for that. I'm looking for people with insight and initiative, people that are motivated to come up with their own novel business plans, follow them through, and keep the proceeds. Honestly, spoon-feeding people BPCs and materials seems a little bit... demeaning.

2) If someone joins my corp for industry purposes, though, there's no way to avoid giving them Factory Manager, which means there's no way to avoid letting them nuke my jobs in progress. They'd also be able to tackle and destroy my haulers. That's unacceptable.

3) The solution is to have people stay in their own corp and join an alliance - pretty much what Mara Villoso suggested. We get the community aspect of working together and can pool knowledge, spreadsheets, etc., but everyone stays safe in their own corp and free from the red tape of limited corp roles. The only serious downsides are the alliance fee and upkeep (negligible), the inability to share POS functionality other than ME and PE slots (whatever, there are plenty of moons, and the kind of people I want to recruit will occupy most/all of a POS anyway), and the inability for multiple people to work off the same locked-down BPO (which we can get around with holding corps).

Kethas Protagonist
Protagonist Ventures
Posted - 2011.07.29 05:05:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Kethas Protagonist on 29/07/2011 05:12:16
Originally by: Kelduum Revaan
However, if you only want to recruit people who are fairly serious, and 'dissuade' anyone looking to waste your time/money, feel free to look out our current recruiting process, and go though our application questionnaire to see the kind of things we ask.


Thank you, I will. Once I've familiarized myself with what your recruitment process is like these days I'll probably try to hit up one of your ROs for a quick conversation - why you do what you do, what you're trying to protect against, that kind of thing.

Originally by: Kelduum Revaan
The only real way to ensure you have security it to have something of the members they may not want you to make public, such as API data and/or identities of alts. Collect that info and ensure you only provide assets worth less than the value of their account - make it not worth their while to steal anything from you based on the cost of replacing their account.


I'd been thinking about this. The "security payment" idea in the OP is a nonstarter - if I approached someone and said "Sure, of course you can join my corp, but first pay me 10B. You know, for security purposes," I'd rightly get laughed out of the room. I've been wondering what sort of out-of-game requirements would be EULA-acceptable, and stumbled across this. Basically: the EULA, as written, prohibits any transfer of anything ingame. Traded someone raw materials for a finished product? Prohibited. Bought a Raven off the market? Prohibited. I'm kind of stuck where to go with that.

Let's assume, for the moment, that I go with the alliance-of-independent-corps approach. (And if you're convinced that's the wrong way to do things, speak up and say why.) What are the pitfalls? I've never run an alliance, obviously.

Originally by: Kim Xiuying
I'm new to manufacturing but babysitting my sell orders is already getting on my nerves, so selling my products to a corp would be much more appealing even if my profit would be lower.


I completely agree that station trading can be a pain, and one of my responsibilities in this proposed alliance would be letting manufacturers stop station trading and focus on manufacturing. We'd probably recruit one or more station traders to buy finished goods from the other indy corps off contracts at a discount and handle selling them in station, pocketing the difference. Figuring out a quick and easy way to set prices on baskets of goods being sold to the station traders would be crucial - I had a discussion here on one way to do it.

Celeritas 5k
Connoisseurs of Candid Coitus
Posted - 2011.07.29 17:25:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Kethas Protagonist

Originally by: Celeritas 5k
I'm in the same shoes as the OP, and it's really quite a paradoxical situation.


Did you end up finding a corp/alliance you liked, or are you still looking?



I've been running a small (10ish players) industry corp for about a month and a half now, and it's been surprisingly profitable. Our operation is small enough that I can keep a day's worth of materials in our open production hangar and still keep the potential corp theft value down to not much more than I have been writing paychecks for each week. I don't have a solution to the factory manager griefing vulnerability, other than keeping the corp small as you suggested.

In reality, I think the best plan is to keep your members happy and well paid. It's worked well enough for me so far...

Celeritas 5k
Connoisseurs of Candid Coitus
Posted - 2011.07.29 18:00:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: Celeritas 5k on 29/07/2011 18:08:33
Originally by: Kethas Protagonist

1) I don't like the "BPC/material packet" idea. I'm not looking to hire extra manufacturing slots - I have alts for that. I'm looking for people with insight and initiative, people that are motivated to come up with their own novel business plans, follow them through, and keep the proceeds. Honestly, spoon-feeding people BPCs and materials seems a little bit... demeaning.

2) If someone joins my corp for industry purposes, though, there's no way to avoid giving them Factory Manager, which means there's no way to avoid letting them nuke my jobs in progress. They'd also be able to tackle and destroy my haulers. That's unacceptable.

3) The solution is to have people stay in their own corp and join an alliance - pretty much what Mara Villoso suggested. We get the community aspect of working together and can pool knowledge, spreadsheets, etc., but everyone stays safe in their own corp and free from the red tape of limited corp roles. The only serious downsides are the alliance fee and upkeep (negligible), the inability to share POS functionality other than ME and PE slots (whatever, there are plenty of moons, and the kind of people I want to recruit will occupy most/all of a POS anyway), and the inability for multiple people to work off the same locked-down BPO (which we can get around with holding corps).


I'm with you on #1; the player is much more valuable than the character. This is true both for their initiative and also their man-hours. There's only a certain amount of repetitive clicking a sane person can do and stay that way. Another problem with these kits is it doesn't allow members to use POS equipment, unless you give them factory manager, which doesn't solve the original problem. And if they can't use POS equipment, what's in it for them, besides convenience? Is convenience worth a cut of the profits they could make on their own?

With #3 you're correct as well-- currently the only defense against this kind of corp theft/griefing is to compartmentalize your operation and minimize the potential damage. Several small, separate corps in an alliance is the most effective way to do this.


Mara Villoso
Posted - 2011.07.29 19:59:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: Kethas Protagonist

I'd been thinking about this. The "security payment" idea in the OP is a nonstarter - if I approached someone and said "Sure, of course you can join my corp, but first pay me 10B. You know, for security purposes," I'd rightly get laughed out of the room. I've been wondering what sort of out-of-game requirements would be EULA-acceptable, and stumbled across this. Basically: the EULA, as written, prohibits any transfer of anything ingame. Traded someone raw materials for a finished product? Prohibited. Bought a Raven off the market? Prohibited. I'm kind of stuck where to go with that.

I feel fairly confident that you have misread the EULA (or I may have misunderstood what you're illustrating). The linked reference is the one that appears to be referencing selling those things outside of EVE, i.e. selling my rifter on ebay (it even references ebay specifically in the EULA). I think the gist of it is: you can't trade in game things or services for out of game items/money. The trading and servicing might occur outside of EVE (e.g., agreeing on a private forum to sell something for X isk), but its still ISK and the actual trade is done in game.

There's kind of a bottom line problem with industrial corps. Anyone smart enough to put together a good industrial operation and gather the necessary capital doesn't really need to join a corp. These are likely to be people who've done the math and know how to ramp up profits, buy PLEX, open another account, repeat, until they have all the slots/producers they need. The issue for them is the one you yourself are facing, there is a point at which one person just doesn't have enough time for all of the clicking.

The model I was proposing is essentially something like-- I produce all of the reaction materials and sell them to Joe. Joe uses them to produce T2 components and sells them to Jack. John buys minerals and produces T1 hulls and sells them to Jack. Jesse buys datacores and BPOs and runs invention jobs and sells the prints to Jack. Jack assembles the pieces and sells the T2 ships. In reality, its not much different from working with total strangers through the markets. However, you can take advantage of the relationships to set profits, set prices, guarantee regular deliveries and production schedules, and maybe most importantly NOT compete against each other in the final sales of the ships, which can take a lot of the price pressures off of everyone involved.

Anyway, just some thoughts.


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