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Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2011.07.27 09:21:00 - [181]
 

Originally by: Tippia
The only ones talking about nerfing highsec are the highsec mission-runners. vOv

Read the whole thread. What is really funny to me is that everyone is talking past each other, w/o regard to what is being said (Tippia doing a pretty good job of avoiding that - but not entirely).

What a lot people (most?) seem to have confused is that lowering (by 2%? 3%?) isk injection across the boards in mission bounties/agent rewards, and *replacing* that part of the reward with an equivalent LP reward would damp out inflation pretty nicely, without ever
"reducing" hi-sec mission REWARDS in total.

Mission Rewards (the total value of running a mission, in modules, salvage, bounties and agent rewards) could remain virtually the same, just by tweaking LP payout, and bounties/agent rewards. Which would lower the total isk in circulation, damping out whatever inflationary pressures have already been identified by CCP.

FOR THE RECORD: When I was playing carebear and avoiding pvp as much as possible, (pretty much solo) I would put some tunes on and play. Very flexible to what time i had available, which was the big draw for me. Also allowed me time to come to terms with the game on my own schedule.

Shadowsword
The Rough Riders
Ares Protectiva
Posted - 2011.07.27 10:47:00 - [182]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Why wouldn't they be able to afford any shineys? Again: it's about reducing the ISK influx, not (necessarily) about reducing the rewards.



Yet what you suggest IS a income nerf for mission runners. If you shift their rewards more toward LP, you increase the flux of LP stuff on the market (which is not, by any mean, suffering from any shortage, except possibly pirate faction ships), and so decrease their value->reduced rewards.

Besides, as it is now, only a fraction of the LP offers are worth something. some items sell for actually less than what it cost in isks and stuff to get, LP excluded. And some factions, like Intaki, have no ship blueprints, no interesting modules (T2 is better), only a few implants that are worth taking. Until and unless the LP offers are significantly boosted, and their cost in isks and tags reduced, any rebalance favoring LP more than isks can't be contemplated.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.27 10:55:00 - [183]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 27/07/2011 10:57:20
Originally by: Shadowsword
Yet what you suggest IS a income nerf for mission runners.
Only if they can't think a little and/or fail to adapt.

…and what's the problem with that? Wink

Anyway, largely skipping the bounties (to say nothing of worthless crap such as loot and salvage) in favour of more LP is already the best way of making money from missions, so a slight shift in that direction shouldn't leave much of a mark.

Pok Nibin
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.27 11:01:00 - [184]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: hellcane
Tippia and others, where is missioning hurting you?
An overproduction of ISK hurts everyone. Missions are simply an easy target for reducing the influx since its such a popular activity, so you can do a lot with a little, and since they have a built-in mechanic that lets you shift ISK spawning to ISK conversion/transfer or even ISK removal without actually touching the total reward.
Quote:
If you were really upset about isk appearing out of thin air, you would be going after PLEX, 0.0 bots, and the like
PLEX do not create ISK out of thing air, and what bots create depends on what they're doing.
Your thinking is so convoluted it defies description. Your Gestalt can be broken down into one thing - do what I do or you suck and here's why....(insert lengthy meaningless wall of text replete with quotes I seem to be challenging on an intellectual level.)

Queen of the forum thou art.


Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.27 11:07:00 - [185]
 

Originally by: Pok Nibin
Your thinking is so convoluted it defies description.
Not really. It's pretty straight-forward, but it assumes you're familiar with the topic and mechanics being discussed.

It's not complex — it just requires contextual knowledge.

Pok Nibin
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.27 11:15:00 - [186]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Pok Nibin
Your thinking is so convoluted it defies description.
Not really. It's pretty straight-forward, but it assumes you're familiar with the topic and mechanics being discussed.

It's not complex — it just requires contextual knowledge.
Uh...convoluted isn't "complex". They're two different things. Derp.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.27 11:22:00 - [187]
 

Originally by: Pok Nibin
Uh...convoluted isn't "complex". They're two different things. Derp.
Funny thing that…

According to the Oxford Thesaurus of English:

complex
adjective
1 a complex situation | criminal law is an extremely complex subject: complicated, involved, intricate, convoluted, tangled, elaborate, serpentine, labyrinthine, tortuous, impenetrable, Byzantine, Daedalian, Gordian; difficult, hard, knotty, tricky, thorny, problematical; informal fiddly; rare involute, involuted. ANTONYMS simple, straightforward.


And anyway, regardless of your preference of words, it's not complex and it's not convoluted.

Newt Rondanse
Posted - 2011.07.27 12:39:00 - [188]
 

So, 80% of the players run in highsec and the most isk comes from NPC bounties and missions, eh?

What percentage of highsec mission runners run anything over L3 missions?

Cruising around Caldari space I see an awful lot of action in systems that don't have L4 agents in them or adjacent systems. This means that a significant percentage of those players are *not* running the L4 missions that Tippia so desperately wants to have nerfed.

Since at any given time the majority of active players don't even have enough SP to get a high isk/hr return out of anything, this further erodes her case that the highsec population is responsible for isk inflation.

Sort out the low SP/low earnings characters, the non-combat mission runners, the miners, traders, and professional haulers.

In short unless you have a good accounting of who is even participating in isk fountain activities and where the isk is coming from you cannot make any supportable assertion as to where payouts need to be adjusted for balance.

CCP core team does have this information available, and they use it. And what was the last payout nerf? Nullsec anomolies (done since the last QEN was published).

In short, Tippia is full of bull and nobody who has posted on her side has done anything do adequately support her case, either.

I sense nullsec ratter sour grapes.

Dirk Magnum
Blue Republic
RvB - BLUE Republic
Posted - 2011.07.27 12:56:00 - [189]
 

Edited by: Dirk Magnum on 27/07/2011 12:57:34
Back when level 4's were the most profitable thing someone could do apart from a lucky scam or opportune market PvP I was an ardent supporter of their nerfing. That was then. Today ISK isn't worth that much and level 4's are not the most profitable PvE one can participate in by any means. Nerfing level 4's now will just handicap us solo players that much more, since level 4's still ARE the most profitable thing a solo player can do if they can't run sanctums in a supercap.

These are my anecdotal impressions of the situation anyway.

edit: by solo player I meant solo account.

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.07.27 14:40:00 - [190]
 

Edited by: Skex Relbore on 27/07/2011 15:12:06
Edited by: Skex Relbore on 27/07/2011 14:40:48
Originally by: Only Two


Hey you remember that economist that ccp hired to manage the game's economy? Even he says the current isk inflation is a problem.


The economist they hired is a Chicago school idiot who is trying to apply a real world economic theory that is wrong to a game economy that is fundamentally different from a real economy.

And yeah I read the QEN and frankly they don't provide the correct information to validate his claim. Because even if the isk supply is increasing faster than growth in output would suggest (something I don't see any actual evidence of) this is to be expected as the population of the game ages and gains more SP and their isk needs increase.

It would be ridiculous to expect the same isk supply levels that worked 3 years ago when the most pilots had 30 or so million fewer SP and weren't using so many T2 and Faction hulls.

The more mature economy requires greater quantities of ISK to function.

Understand there are fundamental differences between the EVE economy and a real life economy that can't simply be hand waved away this include things like unlimited resources (respawning belts), no recurring maintenance costs, you don't have to pay rent or for food you can always find work to earn a buck, things like that and more make the economy behave differently from a real economy.

The reality is that prices remain pretty stable with a general long term trend of decreasing, this argues strongly against the idea that a significant level of inflation exists if any.

People need to keep in mind that bounties and mission rewards are pretty much the only sources of isk in the game and frankly Bouties make up the lions share of that.

That isk is the grease that lubricates the rest of the economy and facilitates trade without it commerce in EVE would grind to a halt because there is no FED to create currency.

The other thing to bear in mind is that the EVE economy has different goals than a real world economy does. A real world economy exists to distribute a finite amount of resources to a population.

The EVE economy exists to facilitate gameplay. ISK being injected through missions and bounties works well in helping new players to acquire some resources while they figure out less labor intensive and mind numbing ways of generating the ISK to fund their fun.

I don't think inflation could ever be a real problem in EVE, understand the only reason inflation is a problem in a real economy is because wages are elastic and tend to lag behind inflation. This can not be the case in a system like EVE where anyone can simply go out and kill some rats to make more isk.

All inflation really means is that you have more units of currency chasing units of production than previously. EVE will tend to self correct such inflationary pressures because as prices for commodities rise the incentive to build said commodities increases and the added number of resources and competition push prices back down.

Think about this imagine if the supply of isk was to double tomorrow at this point the price of trit would double how many hulks do you think would be dusted off under such a circumstance? What would happen to the prices after that?

This isn't a real world economy where mineral resources are limited and already owned, there isn't any real ramp up time to exploit a new resource, in the real world if the price of say copper doubled an individual couldn't go out and start digging a new mine to capitalize on that, Even actual mining companies would have to invest significant resources to open up and exploit new sources. In EVE any newb can grab a frig and mine some Veldspar. They don't even have to buy a ship since a newb ship comes with a civilian miner.

This is why you don't and won't ever see actual inflation in EVE regardless of what they do to bounties.

Villian Murdiface
Posted - 2011.07.27 15:05:00 - [191]
 

Hi, I don't seek pvp in the traditional way, shooting people and such...

But I do like monopolising, especially in Jita. I've been doing it so long now I know my competitors' names, and can recognise new or experienced traders in the market by their behaviour or attitudes.

I like to play them against each other, I like scaring them away, and I like luring them into traps. I also like (if I get sick of someone) "cutting them off" which basically means ensuring they sell not one item until they've learned their lesson!

What fun to be had, with a massive spreadsheet!

My answer might not count though because it's technically pvp. And exciting pvp at that, I literally cannot adjust my orders fast enough to be truly effective, and can really tire myself out with a bit of aggressive monopolising...


Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.07.27 15:06:00 - [192]
 

Edited by: Skex Relbore on 27/07/2011 15:08:07
Oh and Tippia the only people who "overproduction" of ISK harm are those who are sitting on large piles of it. Players who are actually working their ISK are in no way shape or form harmed by greater ISK supply.

In fact the higher the rate of ISK being injected into the economy the more overall economic activity you'll see. This ISK tends to end up in the hands of people who spend it. Mission runners spend their isk they either spend it to support their PVP mains or they spend it to pimp their rides which provides isk to other people to support their other activities.

Because there is no limit on production, all more ISK does is create a larger market for more production. It also has the nice side effect of lowering peoples aversion to risk. People will be far more willing to engage in fights that aren't 100% if they know they can replace their potential loss relatively easily.

Understand I think a balance is required so that PVP loses don't become completely trivial but ATM I think the game is a bit too tilted in the high risk direction and could do with a bit of a push back in the easier to recover from a loss mode.

Even if risk aversion isn't a factor in whether PVP happens the cost of loss or more importantly the cost of recovery affects the rate at which PVP takes place. Even the most fearless pilot will still have to replace their losses at some point and any time spent generating the ISK to do so takes away from time they could be out PVPing.

The insurance nerf had very large effect on peoples ability to maintain high levels of PVP activity. Consider one of the reasons for the rise of the Drake Trains was the affect the insurance nerf had on operating a PVP Battleship previously one could PVP in a battleship and only be looking at the loss of modules and rigs as the cost of the hull was subsidized by the insurance system, post insurance nerf it's just that much more costly to operate a Battleship so you see fewer engaged in PVP and with it's natural predator reduced in numbers Drakes rise to prominence.

The insurance nerf was further exacerbated by the mission reward nerf which lowered the amount of liquid isk in the economy which meant that even though prices wen't down it took even more work to replace a loss.

Honestly I think the bounties should be restored to their pre-nerf levels and the anomaly nerf rolled back, since these were both actions taken to address a problem (inflation) that frankly doesn't and really can't exist in EVE.

hellcane
Posted - 2011.07.28 01:02:00 - [193]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: hellcane
Tippia and others, where is missioning hurting you?
An overproduction of ISK hurts everyone.


Well, i tried. You continue to dodge the question of how missioners effect you in-game besides answering by "IT DOES! NERF MISSIONS." Even with evidence pointing out the opposite.


Have to conclude that you are a low/null sec that wants more solo pve fit ships to wander past your 10-man gatecamp.

Ehdward
Caldari
Nex Exercitus
Raiden.
Posted - 2011.07.28 01:16:00 - [194]
 

Originally by: Skex Relbore

The economist they hired is a Chicago school idiot



So they should've hired a Keynesian, because they have a better understanding of made up economics? I couldn't agree more.

Selinate
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.28 01:34:00 - [195]
 

Originally by: Kunming
Their role is to f up the eve economy by constantly injecting ISK into it.

I'm talking about the true carebears, the mission runners. Miner, manufactoring, traders etc might be non-combat professions but they dont contribute to the ISK inflation and they are rivaling with each other on financial terms. Mission runners on the other hand dont rival each other and dont lose stuff, the LP store is hardly a place to sink all that ISK.

Missions should only reward LP, considering there are more mission runners than anything else ISK is subject to massive inflation every day.

Why am I angry? Well the mission runners wanted to stay away from pvp of any sorts, well I dont like PvE content, and the more the inject ISK into the system the more expensive the items I buy to pvp get, and in the end the more they PVE the more I need to PVE, allow us to blow up mission runners freely then it would only be fair.



I can't think of another way that isk is spontaneously "created" in the Eve economy off the top of my head... so unless someone can remind of something I'm forgetting, then if we only gave LP for missions, wouldn't the economy eventually run out of isk considering the isk sinks in this game?

Seems like a silly thing to complain about...

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.28 02:06:00 - [196]
 

Originally by: Newt Rondanse
This means that a significant percentage of those players are *not* running the L4 missions that Tippia so desperately wants to have nerfed.
You need to learn how to read. Again: the only ones talking about nefing L4s here are people taking your position.
Quote:
I sense nullsec ratter sour grapes.
I sense analfabetism. It's the only explanation for why people think anyone is suggesting an L4 nerf here.
Originally by: hellcane
Well, i tried. You continue to dodge the question of how missioners effect you in-game besides answering by "IT DOES! NERF MISSIONS."
I am part of "everyone." Something that hurts everyone hurts me. It can be fixed without nerfing missions. So tell me: how did I not answer your question? And where did I say that missions should be nerfed?
Originally by: Selinate
I can't think of another way that isk is spontaneously "created" in the Eve economy off the top of my head... so unless someone can remind of something I'm forgetting, then if we only gave LP for missions, wouldn't the economy eventually run out of isk considering the isk sinks in this game?
Faucets:
  • NPC bounties
  • NPC buy orders
  • Mission rewards
  • Insurance payout
  • GM actions
    • Reimbursement for lost pods
  • Character creation
Sinks:
  • Market taxes & fees
    • Broker fees.
    • Sales tax
  • NPC sell orders
  • NPC station services
    • Repairs
    • Jump clone installation
    • Medical clone installation/upgrade/station change
    • Science and industry slot rental
    • Ship insurance
  • Wardecs
  • Sovereignty fees
  • PI fees
    • Building PI structures
    • Import/export tax
  • Office fees
    • Rent
    • Impound penalties
  • Corp & alliance fees
    • Corp creation
    • Alliance creation
    • Alliance upkeep
    • Creating/awarding medals
    • Corp registry ads
  • Agent fees
    • (Certain) LP store items
    • Locator agent services
    • Courier missions w/ deposits
  • CSPA Charges
  • Smuggling fines
  • GM Actions
    • Removal of bought ISK
    • Removal of insurance after ship reimbursement
  • Character deletion
…and no-one is saying "only give LP" either. So no, we wouldn't run out of ISK.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.28 02:18:00 - [197]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 28/07/2011 02:19:35
Originally by: Skex Relbore
In fact the higher the rate of ISK being injected into the economy the more overall economic activity you'll see.
And part of the problem, from what I understand, is that this increase in activity isn't happening.
Quote:
Because there is no limit on production, all more ISK does is create a larger market for more production.
There is a hard limit on production, actually, but we're not quite there yet. There is also a soft limit that comes in the form of the willingness to produce, and we've apparently begun brushing up against that one: it becomes less interesting to produce if you can get more ISK doing other things (activities which may or may not be ISK faucets).
Quote:
The insurance nerf was further exacerbated by the mission reward nerf which lowered the amount of liquid isk in the economy which meant that even though prices wen't down it took even more work to replace a loss.
Really? The insurance nerf happened, what, 2-3 years after the mission nerf, so it would be causally… odd… if the latter exacerbated the former.

There has been exactly one mission nerf in recent years, and that was the loot revamp, which didn't affect the ISK supply.

Selinate
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.28 02:20:00 - [198]
 

They're all masochists. That's how.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.07.28 02:28:00 - [199]
 

Originally by: Kunming
Lets say it is a sort of PvP (like market pvp) that mission runners gather and inject big amounts of ISK, making the ISK I have in hand less worth while he has more of it. Show me the game mechanic for me to fight back? Since lvl 4 missions were introduced large protions of 0.0 became totally useless.


The game mechanic to fight back is, um, to fight. Suicide gank the mission runner, loot their wreck, make bank.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.07.28 02:32:00 - [200]
 

Originally by: Tippia
There has been exactly one mission nerf in recent years, and that was the loot revamp, which didn't affect the ISK supply.


That nerf did significantly impact mission runner incomes, regardless of "faucet", "agitator" or "sink" nature of that income.

Don't forget that the illiterates perceive "money I receive" as "ISK faucet".

hellcane
Posted - 2011.07.28 02:36:00 - [201]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: hellcane
Well, i tried. You continue to dodge the question of how missioners effect you in-game besides answering by "IT DOES! NERF MISSIONS."
I am part of "everyone." Something that hurts everyone hurts me. It can be fixed without nerfing missions. So tell me: how did I not answer your question? And where did I say that missions should be nerfed?

Sigh, children...here is how you did not answer my question:

I ask how does mission bounties hurt you, and you reply with "It hurts everyone."

As for where you said missions should be nerfed:

Quote:
Originally by: Jeronas Kane
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
PVE mission running has never been a problem nor the cause for inflation!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

…except for the significant influx of ISK it causes.


Quote:
Originally by: Jeronas Kane
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
So what is the problem then?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

The amount of ISK the mission runners inject.


Quote:
Just to be clear, are you advocating the removal of isk from all missions?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Complete removal? Probably not, but that depends on the answer to the question I asked (repeated below). Reduction of pure ISK injection? Yes.


Quote:
It's just totally ******ed to punish everyone in HighSec to YET AGAIN cry for NERF on mission and bounty ISK rewards, just because the vast majority of people are in HighSec and are enjoying themselves!
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Actually, that's why it's exactly the right thing to do, since that's where you'd get the most effect for the least amount of change and where there already is a mechanic in place for shifting from a system of pure injection towards one based on conversion and/or transfer.


Quote:
Axing it is probably a bit much, but shifting more towards LP is definitely a good idea almost regardless. That would have the added benefit of making mission running ever so slightly more competitive, as well as making the rewards more self-balancing and player-controlled.



Shifting pure isk gained to LP rewards with the current state of the LP stores is a direct nerf. To quote you:
Originally by: Tippia
Read and understand what's being said before posting, please.

Zixie Draco
Tactical Knightmare
Posted - 2011.07.28 02:47:00 - [202]
 

Edited by: Zixie Draco on 28/07/2011 02:50:03
Quote:
...really hard but I enjoyed it a lot more... I guess I like doing hard things.



eeew...for you...okay for me

edit typo!Very Happy


Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.28 03:03:00 - [203]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 28/07/2011 03:10:03
Originally by: hellcane
Sigh, children...here is how you did not answer my question:

I ask how does mission bounties hurt you, and you reply with "It hurts everyone."
I am part of "everyone." Something that hurts everyone hurts me. It can be fixed without nerfing missions. So tell me: how did I not answer your question?
Quote:
As for where you said missions should be nerfed:
Quote:
…except for the significant influx of ISK it causes.
Quote:
The amount of ISK the mission runners inject.
Quote:
Complete removal? Probably not, but that depends on the answer to the question I asked (repeated below). Reduction of pure ISK injection? Yes.
Quote:
Axing it is probably a bit much, but shifting more towards LP is definitely a good idea almost regardless. That would have the added benefit of making mission running ever so slightly more competitive, as well as making the rewards more self-balancing and player-controlled.

So, where did I say that missions should be nerfed?

The closest one is this one:
Quote:
Actually, that's why it's exactly the right thing to do, since that's where you'd get the most effect for the least amount of change and where there already is a mechanic in place for shifting from a system of pure injection towards one based on conversion and/or transfer.
…but if you'll notice, I'm talking about a shift of income, not a reduction.
Quote:
Shifting pure isk gained to LP rewards with the current state of the LP stores is a direct nerf.
No it isn't, unless you aren't capable of turning LP into ISK (which is actually how the big money in mission-running is made).
Originally by: Mara Rinn
That nerf did significantly impact mission runner incomes, regardless of "faucet", "agitator" or "sink" nature of that income.

Don't forget that the illiterates perceive "money I receive" as "ISK faucet".
I'm got the feeling that Skex know enough to see the difference, but yeah, that's been shown to be a common problem. But in the same vein, I'm expecting people to point to the introduction of sized rigs, even though that's also unrelated to ISK and, indeed, unrelated to mission-running rewards…

Orian Okha
Posted - 2011.07.28 06:02:00 - [204]
 

Tippia: "Only if they can't think a little and/or fail to adapt"

Thats right Tippia. Try to adapt to current game mechanics.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.28 06:07:00 - [205]
 

Originally by: Orian Okha
Thats right Tippia. Try to adapt to current game mechanics.
I already have. Now what?

hellcane
Posted - 2011.07.28 12:50:00 - [206]
 

Originally by: Tippia
I am part of "everyone." Something that hurts everyone hurts me. It can be fixed without nerfing missions. So tell me: how did I not answer your question?

Really? Again, you have given no evidence, and no examples of how missions hurt you besides "it hurts everyone."

Quote:
The closest one is this one but if you'll notice, I'm talking about a shift of income, not a reduction. No it isn't, unless you aren't capable of turning LP into ISK (which is actually how the big money in mission-running is made).

All of those posts i linked are you whining about missions and advocating a move from isk to LP. What you seem to not understand/ignore is that more LP means more LP items, which means more price competition, and lower overall isk.

Tried 2-3x, but you still have head buried in the sand and spout nothing more than "IT HURTS, IM RIGHT" without cohesively answering a question.

I got trolled, 8/10

Meryl SinGarda
Caldari
Belligerent Underpayed Tactical Team
Posted - 2011.07.28 13:01:00 - [207]
 

Edited by: Meryl SinGarda on 28/07/2011 13:03:51
Edited by: Meryl SinGarda on 28/07/2011 13:02:48
I'm going to skip reading a lot of stuff here and simply reply to the aforementioned, "How do carebears enjoy the game?"

Being a carebear as I am, for the most part. I mean, sprinkle a little PVP into my EVE life here and there, I don't think that warrants me not a carebear.

One thing, before I explain, can we change the label from carebear to Space Ponies or something? Please?

With the limited time that I currently have to access entertainment, EVE is my #1 choice, next to a heated game of APB with my brother and lots of booze.

I am fueled by my love for the Universe, Space and the wonders of the shroud of black.

When I mine, I'm not just pointing laser beams at some pixels; I am expanding my ability to provide for my corporation, expanding the wallet that provides, for me, what I need to survive.

(It can be exciting too, if you mine in a system that is frequent for suicide bombers)

When I do missions, I am assisting my chosen faction (be it Caldari or Minmatar) and I am increasing my relations and standings with them. I am bringing a little justice(or injustice?) to the galaxy of New Eden.

As I copy BPOs, I am analyzing market prices and considering an assembly line of ships for the Belligerent Underpayed Tactical Team(intentional misspelling) that sits firmly in the system of Nakugard.

And when I'm not playing, I imagine the empire I will eventually build. The wars that we will engage in. The hate that we will inspire.

Also, if I'm pvping, I'm swimming through the vast darkness, slithering like a snake, looking for my next victim. Analyzing different strategies in my mind as to how I could beat this or that type of player, or how I might escape if I'm jumped by a large group of players.

One more thing though. If I'm scanning, I'm extending my feelers and scratching at the very edges of Space, looking for that little pocket that'll finally make me the trillionare I'm working to be :P

Yeah, this is my EVE.

I'm not a roleplayer, but I like it to be real, for me, at least.

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.07.28 16:34:00 - [208]
 

Edited by: Skex Relbore on 28/07/2011 16:43:21
Originally by: Tippia
Edited by: Tippia on 28/07/2011 02:19:35And part of the problem, from what I understand, is that this increase in activity isn't happening.


It isn't happening because we don't have enough liquidity due to the various nerfs that have been put in place on ISK faucets, Bounty nerf, insurance nerf, and most recently the anomaly nerf.

The fact that this increase isn't happening is evidence that the idea that there is an oversupply of isk is false.


Quote:

There is a hard limit on production, actually, but we're not quite there yet. There is also a soft limit that comes in the form of the willingness to produce, and we've apparently begun brushing up against that one: it becomes less interesting to produce if you can get more ISK doing other things (activities which may or may not be ISK faucets).


Oh we're no where near any theoretical limit on production.

How many moons out there don't have POS's atm? How many asteroid fields sit around untouched? Hell all of low sec is pretty much a desolate.

So yes there is indeed plenty of untapped production available.

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Really? The insurance nerf happened, what, 2-3 years after the mission nerf, so it would be causally… odd… if the latter exacerbated the former.


The insurance nerf was only bit over a year ago.


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There has been exactly one mission nerf in recent years, and that was the loot revamp, which didn't affect the ISK supply.


I can't find a reference but I swear that bounties got nerfed sometime during my second round through RVB. BS rats that I remember giving 1mil+ now give half a mil or in many cases even less. In fact million isk bounty BS rats are now incredibly rare compared to what I remember from pre-insurance days.

Of course that may just be old man memory working or not as it were.

Either way I've seen no evidence that suggests that EVE is suffering from any sort of inflation due to excess ISK.

People have been whining about inflation since I started playing and I'd image for years prior to that as well yet I've not see any empirical evidence to support that such inflation exists.

Sure we get some price fluctuation on certain goods and commodities but that's normal, What we've not seen is the blanket increase in costs across the board that would suggest inflation. If anything the reverse seems to be the case.

Personally I think concerns over inflation in this game are misplaced even if we had inflation due to increased bounties or some other faucet, the fact that "pay" would automatically be increasing along with said money supply increase would mean that the overall effect on the economy would be moot.

As I said before inflation is only a problem in real life because pay does not increase on par with said inflation and often doesn't even keep up with rate due to aspects of the labor market that don't really apply in EVE.

In game the only ones who would be adversely affected by an increased ISK supply would be the people sitting on large piles of ISK in their wallets everyone else would just have fatter wallets and for the most part be sitting about where they were previously.

In fact I wonder how many of the proponents of an isk supply nerf are only in favor of such because they want to protect and increase the value of their assets.


P.S yes I do understand that the LP store is not an isk faucet nor is any income generated via loot. I'm talking about direct ISK creation through bounties and mission rewards.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.28 17:00:00 - [209]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 28/07/2011 17:11:17
Originally by: Skex Relbore
The fact that this increase isn't happening is evidence that the idea that there is an oversupply of isk is false.
…and the good doctor disagrees. Or, well, I suppose that depends on what you mean by “supply” — sources or stockpiles.
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Oh we're no where near any theoretical limit on production.

How many moons out there don't have POS's atm? How many asteroid fields sit around untouched? Hell all of low sec is pretty much a desolate.

So yes there is indeed plenty of untapped production available.
Yes, but the problem is still that willingness limit, and that limit exist very much because of the existence of other things that give you ISK.
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The insurance nerf was only bit over a year ago.
Exactly. And the bounty nerf happened long before that.
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I can't find a reference but I swear that bounties got nerfed sometime during my second round through RVB.
Without knowing your corp history (read: being too lazy to look it up Razz), I can't say when that was. All I know is that the only bounty nerf I know of happened either before I started playing, or soon enough after I started that I hadn't begun running L4s yet. That puts it at 3+ years ago at least.
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People have been whining about inflation since I started playing and I'd image for years prior to that as well yet I've not see any empirical evidence to support that such inflation exists.
…and you'll simply have to excuse me if I believe what EyjoG says on these matters. Yes, we've mostly seen deflation, in spite of insistent claims to the contrary, but likewise, we've also seen inflation in spite of (admittedly much more quiet) claims to the contrary.

Now, if EyjoG says that the ISK influx alreay outpaces the rate of production, and that production is slowing down on top of that, I think there's reason to worry.
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In game the only ones who would be adversely affected by an increased ISK supply would be the people sitting on large piles of ISK in their wallets everyone else would just have fatter wallets and for the most part be sitting about where they were previously.
That's assuming that the income sources those spenders use are in synch with the the ISK influx. And again, from what I understand, it's not the supply that is worrisome here, but the rate of increase — the (net) influx.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.07.28 17:02:00 - [210]
 

I liked running missions when I started. It was nice to see how bigger ships did a better job at completing them etc. I did that for about 6 months or so then stopped. Then about a year later I did some again just to see how my improved skills would help me chew through rats faster.

Generating isk is nice. But yeah I agree with the ops sentiment. Unless you are going to spend it on ships in pvp I'm nto sure what why you would do it.


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