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Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.26 19:47:00 - [151]
 

Edited by: Cipher Jones on 26/07/2011 19:47:27
Quote:
People like PvP as it gives them a "false sense" of accomplishment and getting fake kills on a fake kill-recording account.
This gives them a sense of "worth" and leverage in virtual world as well as e-peen. Also the "bean counting game" (that can be optimised with "killmails" seem to appeal to a special type of dbag.


Market PvP is a financially full contact sport where the sense of domination over others and actual visceral competitiveness as well as a challenging marketing (again spreadsheets) game itself.


fixed


Ricardo Gonzalo Montalban
Posted - 2011.07.26 19:48:00 - [152]
 

I love how an honest thread about PVE ideas turns into a massive nerf missions troll.

Bronden Neopatus
Posted - 2011.07.26 19:49:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Decaped
Take away isk for hi sec missions????
No. Reducing ISK influx through missions. Different thing.
Quote:
Think about the big picture before you selfish idiots start posting pls
Read and understand what's being said before posting, please.


Have a better idea. Let anyone who attacks a neutral target to be killed permanently if podded, losing every SP, asset and ISK they had. How's that for a thrill, hulkagedoners?

And once all of you had ragequitted or had been exterminated, I seriously doubt the game would ever notice you were gone.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.26 19:50:00 - [154]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 26/07/2011 19:52:03
Originally by: Decaped
Reducing is still just as dumb.
How so?
Quote:
How do you expect kill all the new peoples shiney's if they can't afford to buy any for you to kill?
Why wouldn't they be able to afford any shineys? Again: it's about reducing the ISK influx, not (necessarily) about reducing the rewards.
Quote:
Don't be a **** stick and call for a nerf bat just because you can't sustain yourself.
Again: read and understand what's being said before posting. It's not a nerf, **** stick.
Originally by: Ricardo Gonzalo Montalban
I love how an honest thread about PVE ideas turns into a massive nerf missions troll.
The really funny bit is that it's just the people who don't want to see a nerf that are trollishly turning into a "nerf missions" discussion. Razz

Narisa Bithon
Caldari
The Motley Crew Reborn
Posted - 2011.07.26 19:57:00 - [155]
 

Edited by: Narisa Bithon on 26/07/2011 19:58:53
nerfing mission bounties in high sec would only serve 0.0 botters interests cos thye will sell more isk for real money, for those that are not wealthy in real life result in alot of dropped subs.

if ccp nerf mission bounties again.... ill drop all my subs and go play starwars the old republic.

Decaped
Posted - 2011.07.26 20:09:00 - [156]
 

@ tippia

Inject: The introduction of something new and different into something. If I would be injecting something into a market it would be like bringing something from hi sec to a market in low sec that the low sec market does not have. You cannot inject something into something that already has it. You are looking to use words like additional, contribute, etc... OK? can you use that word correctly please?


Also, my original comment wasn't focused at your trolling comments previous but I guess you are the biggest troll in here so of course I baited you. Do you actually have anything to add, or is your thing picking apart others posts?

Aldan Romar
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.26 20:12:00 - [157]
 

Inflation caused by mission runners? People. Please.

Kerrisone
Posted - 2011.07.26 20:16:00 - [158]
 

Edited by: Kerrisone on 26/07/2011 20:40:08
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Kerrisone
Not really following all this inflation stuff, I know CCP says there is too much isk in the game don't recall why/if they explained it. I'd guess it ties into the 'too many plex' aspect which is why we got Aurum Gold.
Nah. PLEX is not ISK — PLEX are actually quite economy neutral. The problem they have with PLEX is that it creates liability in their books, and they want to bleed that liability without upsetting the in-game market too much.
Originally by: Kerrisone
It makes no sense to me that they removed isk sinks like NPC goods to then let players faucet them out with tiny costs through PI while not adding more sinks.
I haven't seen any numbers on it, but why do you assume that the post-PI sinks aren't as large as the pre-PI sinks?



I was thinking it might have been too much isk equating to an ability to buy plex and not pay the sub for an increasing number of players further pushing the need for more plex to be created(bought) by other players with money to burn (more incentive for MT/pay for advantage services) which also drives CCP to chase new subscribers or those pay to play crowd to keep the new people, the pay to play, and the isk wealthy players.

From the profits, it seems that they outstrip the costs involved, by a good deal. My numbers are off but you could put down a pi setup for a few million isk then just 'run' it and seemingly pay cents on the dollar for your exports. It is possible I am wrong it is after all just an assumption.
Originally by: Kerrisone
Then if CCP ever elaborated on what is 'too much isk' just the ball park number amoung all 'active' or whatever or individual accounts. Why is X 'too much isk', what is 'too much isk' for an account/character, what isn't 'too much isk'?
Originally by: Tippia
All good questions. They are more worried about ISK growth, though, from the sound of it.

Okay that helps clear it up for me must be having a 'moment' not connecting the dots. It would still be useful to have some kind of answer for the above at least in attempting to craft some methods to sink isk out.
Originally by: Kerrisone
If there need to be methods to draw more isk out or slow the isk in then CCP needs to make the game more interesting, fun, etc which goes back to my pet project of fixing the abandon, broken, aborted features and aspects of existing gameplay.
Originally by: Tippia
Well, even without the economic situation, fixing abandoned stuff would be good. But more to the point, the nice part about missions is that they can be tweaked to inject less ISK without actually changing the final rewards.

Originally by: Kerrisone
Is the answer 20:1?
Originally by: [quote=Tippia
Highly unlikely. Most missions will require you to kill an amount of ships that at least match the mission payout itself, so it would be quite odd if it were much higher than 1:1. It is also more or less impossible for it to be less than 1:8


Ratting could also be tweaked with more item drops, maybe tags/modules and less isk bounties as missions have bounties reduced and LP increased to balance.

There could also be more isk services to be bought but not required but I think CCP will want to make them all MT instead of isk sinks, things like extra hangars, wallet divisions, etc.

It's been a while since I missioned and I stopped paying attention to the rewards sometime ago. I mostly mission for standing and for some 'fun' now, they are all basically the 'same' and pretty boring as a career, I just recall getting something like 10-20x more in bounties than MR.

Kiran
Minmatar
Knights of Azrael
Anti-Social Outcast
Posted - 2011.07.26 21:19:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: DejaPeaux
I'm a carebear, and yes mining sucks, what I enjoy is the studying of the markets trying to decided what item I can manufacture next, trying to get the most isk per day out of my production lines.
Without people like me you wouldn't have no ships to fly, and no ammo in your guns.
Also without people like you. i would have no need to make ships and ammo.



^^This I find alot of hardcore pvp'ers hate the industrialists within the game, yet without them they wouldn't have anything to fly or blow up.
I do a bit of everything from PvE mission runing to mining inventing and pvp. I enjoy playing the markets, I enjoy building items to sell, I enjoy runing missions after a hard day at work and I also enjoy flying in small roaming gangs in pvp.

I love the fact that Eve is not just about pvp, or raiding etc and that I have a wide and varied choice and different ways to make ISK and spend it.

Kin Netics
Posted - 2011.07.26 21:28:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Kiran
Originally by: DejaPeaux
I'm a carebear, and yes mining sucks, what I enjoy is the studying of the markets trying to decided what item I can manufacture next, trying to get the most isk per day out of my production lines.
Without people like me you wouldn't have no ships to fly, and no ammo in your guns.
Also without people like you. i would have no need to make ships and ammo.



^^This I find alot of hardcore pvp'ers hate the industrialists within the game, yet without them they wouldn't have anything to fly or blow up.
I do a bit of everything from PvE mission runing to mining inventing and pvp. I enjoy playing the markets, I enjoy building items to sell, I enjoy runing missions after a hard day at work and I also enjoy flying in small roaming gangs in pvp.

I love the fact that Eve is not just about pvp, or raiding etc and that I have a wide and varied choice and different ways to make ISK and spend it.



^^ This

Kiran
Minmatar
Knights of Azrael
Anti-Social Outcast
Posted - 2011.07.26 21:31:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Caiden Baxter
So Tippia is the solution then just axe the bounties on npc's in missions and just keep the Concord payout as it is. ?
Axing it is probably a bit much, but shifting more towards LP is definitely a good idea almost regardless. That would have the added benefit of making mission running ever so slightly more competitive, as well as making the rewards more self-balancing and player-controlled.


Your starting to sound like a bitter 0.0 vet who wants all the isk for themselves. Its the constant blob warfare in sov held space that puts alot of people off myself included in going back to 0.0.

If they nerf mission rewards they need to lower the bounties on 0.0 rats as well. A cash injection is an injection no matter where it is in the game.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.26 21:41:00 - [162]
 

Originally by: Kiran
Your starting to sound like a bitter 0.0 vet who wants all the isk for themselves.
My what?
Also, you should probably get your ears checked.
Quote:
If they nerf mission rewards they need to lower the bounties on 0.0 rats as well.
No, they wouldn't need to. Also, why would you want to nerf mission rewards?
Quote:
A cash injection is an injection no matter where it is in the game.
Yes. What's your point?

Serene Repose
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2011.07.26 21:43:00 - [163]
 

I'm a masochist who hopes against hope the powers that be will one day realize there's more potential in this sandbox than to have a bunch of sociopaths virtually offing each other to add spice to their six packs every night.

Go figure.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.26 21:47:00 - [164]
 

Originally by: Serene Repose
I'm a masochist who hopes against hope the powers that be will one day realize there's more potential in this sandbox than to have a bunch of sociopaths virtually offing each other to add spice to their six packs every night.
It wouldn't be much of a sandbox, and none of the things currently in the game would serve any purpose without them. So why are you hoping to play a game that is entirely unlike EVE?

Serene Repose
Caldari
Perkone
Posted - 2011.07.26 21:51:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Serene Repose
I'm a masochist who hopes against hope the powers that be will one day realize there's more potential in this sandbox than to have a bunch of sociopaths virtually offing each other to add spice to their six packs every night.
It wouldn't be much of a sandbox, and none of the things currently in the game would serve any purpose without them. So why are you hoping to play a game that is entirely unlike EVE?

Always such a charmer.

Thorion Mortisfilius
Order of the Lilithian Knights
Posted - 2011.07.26 21:59:00 - [166]
 

I read most of this thread and wish to reply. If someone else already stated what I am about to say, consider this backing up there statement.
I loved 0.0 pvp the two times I attempted them. They were some of the best times I had in Eve. So why am I carebearing? Because 0.0 corps and alliance make gameplay an obligation. I understand the reason why they have to and don't begrudge them that requirement of their members. However, going to work is an obligation, committing to school makes studying an obligation and paying bills and taxes is an obligation...I just don't want to feel obliged during my gameplay. I still venture in 0.0 occassionally to play tag with the locals but mainly stay in Empire space.
As for the removal of ISK from mission running, I do missions primarily for faction to remove taxes of my refining and gain stuff for me R&D character. I have yet to use any loyalty points and I consider the ISK I gain as compensation for the ammo I used. It really isn't much more above that.

Skex Relbore
Gallente
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.07.26 22:04:00 - [167]
 

There is no inflation in EVE. If there were prices would be rising the fact that they are is in direct conflict with the idea that inflation exists in EVE much less that it's a problem.

Injection of ISK into the economy is only a problem if insufficient goods and services were being injected for it to represent.

The fact is that even if the liquid isk in the market is increasing over time this still does not equate to inflation, the reason is that as the player base both grows and ages more isk will be required to be in circulation for the economy to function.

Most people have a ****poor understanding of monetary policy nowadays. Witness all the doom and gloom predictions of hyper inflation that was supposed to manifest when the FED was injecting massive amounts of cash into the real market through quantitative easing.

Didn't happen. There are reasons for this which would take far too long to explain (go read Paul Krugman or some other non-chicago school economist).

The fact that the isk prices aren't increasing overall is plenty of evidence that inflation simply isn't a problem in EVE.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.26 22:08:00 - [168]
 

Originally by: Skex Relbore
Injection of ISK into the economy is only a problem if insufficient goods and services were being injected for it to represent.
…which is kind of what is happening according to the good doctor.

Valentina Valentia
Caldari
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.07.26 23:25:00 - [169]
 

Originally by: Abrazzar
It's a meditative experience.


Ohmmmm...Monay Potmay... Ohmmmm...

[linky for ref if needed] - you have to make things fun and interesting, sometimes the most [olive] drab situations can be made fun with just a bit of effort and some heels! Wink

Joan Avon
Amarr
We See Dead People
Atlas.
Posted - 2011.07.27 01:52:00 - [170]
 

Edited by: Joan Avon on 27/07/2011 01:51:59
Economic inflation/Mudflat-ion issues aside, The reason I as a Carebear enjoy Eve is the complexity of the industrial/economic game play mechanics themselves combined with the complex social ecosystem that the single shard universe allows.

The synergy of these two elements allows for an endless supply of new and interesting things to see, try, die and cry about in a manor that isn't a glossy cartoon or a melodramatic Armageddon that so many other games seem to employ.

But one thing that I for the life of me do not understand about Eve is the rabid enraged hatred a sizable chunk of full time PvPers have for people who don't primarily log on to try and get kills. I don't understand why they care so much about what some Producer or industrialist in high sec is doing or not doing? I just don't understand why they are so often enraged by the idea that someone else doesn't care about or attempt to snag a kill mail.

KaarBaak
Minmatar
Seatec Astronomy
Posted - 2011.07.27 01:55:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: Skex Relbore
There is no inflation in EVE. If there were prices would be rising the fact that they are is in direct conflict with the idea that inflation exists in EVE much less that it's a problem.


Read the QEN
Quote:

Injection of ISK into the economy is only a problem if insufficient goods and services were being injected for it to represent.


Read the QEN
Quote:

The fact is that even if the liquid isk in the market is increasing over time this still does not equate to inflation, the reason is that as the player base both grows and ages more isk will be required to be in circulation for the economy to function.


Read the QEN
Quote:

irrelevant drivel


Quote:
The fact that the isk prices aren't increasing overall is plenty of evidence that inflation simply isn't a problem in EVE.

Last time....read the QEN


Maverick2011
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.27 04:25:00 - [172]
 

Nerf mission rewards and prepare to see the majority of the game population decrease fast. You have been warned.

hellcane
Posted - 2011.07.27 04:35:00 - [173]
 

Edited by: hellcane on 27/07/2011 04:37:26
Read most of the thread:

The main arguement now seems to be that 1-2 pvpers think that isk made in missions is making their isk worthless. This is wrong on several levels.

1: Missioning churns up a lot of random loot. Loot turns into minerals, which turns into cheaper modules for you. Good for PVPers. Kill missioning and module prices will skyrocket, especially high meta modules.

2: Missioning gives faction loot. Inexpensive enough to boost PVP boats, since there are so many missioners. Good for PVPers.

3: Missioners buy officer equipment. Good source of income for nul-sec people. Its not like you would fit named modules onto a PVP ship. Good for PVPers.

4: Missioners typically have 1-2 main goals besides funding pvp. Mass huge wallets, and mass a huge fleet of shiny ships. They horde the isk they make, which means the isk they make has little effect on the economy besides buying the 10b priced officer mod from a low-sec entity. Dosen't effect PVPers.

Tippia and others, where is missioning hurting you? Your isk can be used to buy modules and ships cheaper because of the missioners. Nerf missions more, and the people that use missions to fund PVP will have to spend more time in PVE, taking away from targets you can shoot at.

If you were really upset about isk appearing out of thin air, you would be going after PLEX, 0.0 bots, and the like....not something that actually benifits you.

Which means the whole arguement is based on PVPers being upset that they cannot railroad PVE fit ships in empire, and we have been over that before: Nerfing missions to the point where you cannot make profit without going to low/nul sec will cause the dedicated PVErs to quit. You cannot force them to PVP, so you might as well profit from their PVEing.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.27 05:58:00 - [174]
 

Originally by: hellcane
Tippia and others, where is missioning hurting you?
An overproduction of ISK hurts everyone. Missions are simply an easy target for reducing the influx since its such a popular activity, so you can do a lot with a little, and since they have a built-in mechanic that lets you shift ISK spawning to ISK conversion/transfer or even ISK removal without actually touching the total reward.
Quote:
If you were really upset about isk appearing out of thin air, you would be going after PLEX, 0.0 bots, and the like
PLEX do not create ISK out of thing air, and what bots create depends on what they're doing.

Only Two
Posted - 2011.07.27 06:24:00 - [175]
 

Originally by: Skex Relbore
There is no inflation in EVE. If there were prices would be rising the fact that they are is in direct conflict with the idea that inflation exists in EVE much less that it's a problem.

Injection of ISK into the economy is only a problem if insufficient goods and services were being injected for it to represent.

The fact is that even if the liquid isk in the market is increasing over time this still does not equate to inflation, the reason is that as the player base both grows and ages more isk will be required to be in circulation for the economy to function.

Most people have a ****poor understanding of monetary policy nowadays. Witness all the doom and gloom predictions of hyper inflation that was supposed to manifest when the FED was injecting massive amounts of cash into the real market through quantitative easing.

Didn't happen. There are reasons for this which would take far too long to explain (go read Paul Krugman or some other non-chicago school economist).

The fact that the isk prices aren't increasing overall is plenty of evidence that inflation simply isn't a problem in EVE.


Hey you remember that economist that ccp hired to manage the game's economy? Even he says the current isk inflation is a problem.

Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.27 06:34:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: hellcane
Tippia and others, where is missioning hurting you?
An overproduction of ISK hurts everyone. Missions are simply an easy target for reducing the influx since its such a popular activity, so you can do a lot with a little, and since they have a built-in mechanic that lets you shift ISK spawning to ISK conversion/transfer or even ISK removal without actually touching the total reward.
Quote:
If you were really upset about isk appearing out of thin air, you would be going after PLEX, 0.0 bots, and the like
PLEX do not create ISK out of thing air, and what bots create depends on what they're doing.


And you still avoided the question. How are mission rewards hurting you? As I said earlier, if inflation would be a problem, then mission runners would be the first that get hurt, because their static rewards lose value and you can't citate an old QUEN when the actual situation ingame right now is different. As I and a lot of other people said, a large number of modules T1 and faction are cheaper then ever before.

Also removing ISK sources or severely nerfing them will screw up the economy, since products will still enter the market, but while ISK go out of circulation the markets will crash, because no one can afford the products.

And while PLEX do not generate ISK out of nothing, they are creating a P2W situation. Essentially it is CCP sanctioned RMT, nothing else.

Trainwreck McGee
Posted - 2011.07.27 06:52:00 - [177]
 

Economy pvp is for real men

So much more fun then sitting in lag and swearing over vent

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.27 06:59:00 - [178]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 27/07/2011 07:03:28
Originally by: Deviana Sevidon
And you still avoided the question. How are mission rewards hurting you?
As I said: an overproduction of ISK hurts everyone.
Quote:
you can't citate an old QUEN when the actual situation ingame right now is different.
The same worry was expressed by the same economist in the CSM minutes from two months ago.
Quote:
Also removing ISK sources or severely nerfing them will screw up the economy
Good thing that no-one is really talking about that, then.
Quote:
And while PLEX do not generate ISK out of nothing, they are creating a P2W situation.
Not really. You can only buy the amount of win that already exists in the game and which others are willing to sell you.

Orian Okha
Posted - 2011.07.27 07:07:00 - [179]
 

Edited by: Orian Okha on 27/07/2011 07:08:20
Soooo, null-sec bots, anomaly grinders and "hardcore superblob PvPers" wanted nerf ABC from wormholes and now they want to nerf hisec income too? Laughing

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.27 07:10:00 - [180]
 

Originally by: Orian Okha
Soooo, null-sec bots, anomaly grinders and "hardcore superblob PvPers" wanted nerf ABC from wormholes and now they want to nerf hisec income too? Laughing
The only ones talking about nerfing highsec are the highsec mission-runners. vOv


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