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Garion Irongrip
Posted - 2011.07.24 20:35:00 - [1]
 

Hi everyone... I am still relatively new to this game, but love it and its depth and complexity. I decided from the get-go that I wanted to be a dedicated industrialist and trader, and have subscribed with two different accounts (which I can control on one CPU without hassle).

I am working towards Perfect Miner and a Hulk on my main, with my "alt" having trained up to Gallente Industrial IV.. the plan for the early going to mine with the "main" and have the "alt" haul for the main so I can do pretty much continual mining without much loss of efficiency with having to switch ships constantly, etc.

Anyways, I'm looking for suggestions as to how to get maximum efficiency out of these characters. I have always been a crafting nerd in every MMO, so I am heavily interested in nearly all aspects of industry in this game along with trade. My main question is how should I focus to get maximum efficiency out of both accounts. For example, after the Hulk, should I be focusing on one single manufacturing skill such as ship building, or go into research? Work on trade skills on the alt and go for industrial ships to move the loads?

It's so deep and complex, and with two characters and STRIVING to get better - I just don't want to make any significant errors that will cloud my ability to be efficient from the start. If any other dedicated industrialists could share some of the paths/ideas they chose or took - it'd be extremely helpful.

Garion Irongrip
Posted - 2011.07.24 22:12:00 - [2]
 

Not one single idea? Rolling Eyes

I'm more looking for an idea of what has worked for others. Did you train to perfect miner, and then work research before manufacturing, etc? Would you use the second character solely for trade, or is it unnecessary to train those skills and maybe work invention, etc?

I *do* a lot of research, I'm strictly wondering on what has already worked for others who feel they are efficient and were efficient in their paths to get there. I don't mind paying for both accounts until I can become self-sufficient, as long as my time is well-spent and gets me somewhere in this place... Again, I am interested in ALL aspects of business, trade, industry, and R&D... the question is what is the best way to start?

Janus Odeo
Aggressive Affects
Posted - 2011.07.25 00:32:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Janus Odeo on 25/07/2011 00:34:21
You want to live in highsec I assume?

I wouldn't bother with highsec mining, macro bots and other factors make mining nearly worthless in general. Level 4 mission running is sadly the be-all-end-all way to generate ISK without any real capital, and you can probably get into a drake and eventually cheap raven faster than you can get into a hulk. I mean mining will work if you really want to get your starting capital that way, but as the game stands I wouldn't recommend going through with it. Also an obligatory reminder that the minerals you mine are not free, if you can make more ISK selling them to buy orders than building them into something and selling that, don't do it.

Definitely invest in trade skills, I'd argue you should start in trade and then move to industry. Utilize your crafting nerd nature by exploring the very many ways the various things in the game are made which should help you find good investments. You will probably be able to make ISK in trading much earlier than making ISK with industry.

As for cheap industry, planetary interaction in lowsec (will require a blockade runner) is probably your best bet, also a good way to generate capital for later activities. If that's not "real industry" for you you can train up and earn some profit with invention, try making a mix of T1 and T2 ammo and selling it on the market. Essentially ammo and some modules with very short invention times are often profitable because it's regarded by many players as too much effort to go through the clickfest that involves. It goes without saying you need to have at least enough trade savvy and be willing to do the math to make sure you are making a profit. You'll either need a highsec player owned starbase for labs (a caldari small should probably do the trick) or a willingness to find NPC-owned labs in remote lowsec or NPC 0.0 space.

Avoid ship building and invention and capital ship/capital parts production, and generally anything that requires a lot of startup cost in blueprints until later.

Can't stress enough that you should never assume something is profitable just because the BPO costs what you consider a lot of ISK....always do the math.

Consider joining a corporation, a good trade/industry corporation will make things a lot more fun for you than going it alone. Eve University (a very popular new player training corporation) might also interest you.


Hockston Axe
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.25 00:35:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Garion Irongrip

I am working towards Perfect Miner and a Hulk on my main, with my "alt" having trained up to Gallente Industrial IV.. the plan for the early going to mine with the "main" and have the "alt" haul for the main so I can do pretty much continual mining without much loss of efficiency with having to switch ships constantly, etc.



Get your hauler into an Orca asap so you can just sit there and load up without having to do the constant back and forth in an indy. The Orca can also give a nice little mining boost, although from what I've read 3 hulks + Orca is the min for getting more yield than just using another hulk. The orca is also a hell of a great hauler when rigged to use mwd so you get a 10 second align -> warp.

As for the rest all I'll say is read up in the stickies here and in market discussion.

Garion Irongrip
Posted - 2011.07.25 01:56:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Janus Odeo
Edited by: Janus Odeo on 25/07/2011 00:34:21
You want to live in highsec I assume?

I wouldn't bother with highsec mining, macro bots and other factors make mining nearly worthless in general. Level 4 mission running is sadly the be-all-end-all way to generate ISK without any real capital, and you can probably get into a drake and eventually cheap raven faster than you can get into a hulk. I mean mining will work if you really want to get your starting capital that way, but as the game stands I wouldn't recommend going through with it. Also an obligatory reminder that the minerals you mine are not free, if you can make more ISK selling them to buy orders than building them into something and selling that, don't do it.

Definitely invest in trade skills, I'd argue you should start in trade and then move to industry. Utilize your crafting nerd nature by exploring the very many ways the various things in the game are made which should help you find good investments. You will probably be able to make ISK in trading much earlier than making ISK with industry.

As for cheap industry, planetary interaction in lowsec (will require a blockade runner) is probably your best bet, also a good way to generate capital for later activities. If that's not "real industry" for you you can train up and earn some profit with invention, try making a mix of T1 and T2 ammo and selling it on the market. Essentially ammo and some modules with very short invention times are often profitable because it's regarded by many players as too much effort to go through the clickfest that involves. It goes without saying you need to have at least enough trade savvy and be willing to do the math to make sure you are making a profit. You'll either need a highsec player owned starbase for labs (a caldari small should probably do the trick) or a willingness to find NPC-owned labs in remote lowsec or NPC 0.0 space.

Avoid ship building and invention and capital ship/capital parts production, and generally anything that requires a lot of startup cost in blueprints until later.

Can't stress enough that you should never assume something is profitable just because the BPO costs what you consider a lot of ISK....always do the math.

Consider joining a corporation, a good trade/industry corporation will make things a lot more fun for you than going it alone. Eve University (a very popular new player training corporation) might also interest you.




Well I am currently in a corporation, but most of the players are new except for the CEO and a few others, but we are stationed in 0.5... I just want to mine and make things. :) I know it sounds simplistic, but I've got nothing but time and am interested in it all.

I guess the main thing was deciding on a skillpath. I was figuring on getting Indy 5, Mining 5, refining efficiency to at least 4, and then my individual ore processings, and then going for Hulk. It was what I do after that as far as WHAT to skill in manufacturing... like going for which skills first? I was assuming Production Efficiency, Mass Production, etc - but not real sure. I guess I can look at a guide for each individual one.

I definitely don't want to limit myself to highsec... just not that interested in being a player killer, but not risk-adverse.

Garion Irongrip
Posted - 2011.07.25 02:00:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Hockston Axe
Originally by: Garion Irongrip

I am working towards Perfect Miner and a Hulk on my main, with my "alt" having trained up to Gallente Industrial IV.. the plan for the early going to mine with the "main" and have the "alt" haul for the main so I can do pretty much continual mining without much loss of efficiency with having to switch ships constantly, etc.



Get your hauler into an Orca asap so you can just sit there and load up without having to do the constant back and forth in an indy. The Orca can also give a nice little mining boost, although from what I've read 3 hulks + Orca is the min for getting more yield than just using another hulk. The orca is also a hell of a great hauler when rigged to use mwd so you get a 10 second align -> warp.

As for the rest all I'll say is read up in the stickies here and in market discussion.


I didn't really want to train up all the mining skills on both characters, I guess this was what I meant by efficiency. With the 2 accounts - figuring out how to balance between both characters to get the most for my time.

Bugsy VanHalen
Posted - 2011.07.25 20:17:00 - [7]
 

Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen on 25/07/2011 20:18:06
Getting one pilot into an ORCA is definitely not a waste of time. even players that do not mine often use orca as a safer mini freighter. But they really excel in mining support. an orca set for max tank for safer hauling can reach over 250,000 ehp and still have lots of cargo space. or maxed for cargo you can get about 100k m3 cargo plus 40k m3 in the corp hanger plus an additional 50k m3 ore hold that comes in handy for mining. I run 3 accounts with two hulk pilots and an orca. it takes about 20 minutes for the two hulks to completely fill the orca with ore approximately 190,000 m3. I often swap out some mods to max out my ehp when I make runs to JITA. I have hardly used my itty 5 since getting the orca.

An orca does require most mining skills to get into it and then a good amount of time into leadership skills to max out the boost. but you do not need all the skills needed for a hulk. astrogeology 5 is not needed for an orca but is needed for a hulk. 15 days saved there to put toward the couple months training needed to get into an orca. orca support is even nice in missions as you can bring it in an use it to swap out parts, haul loot, and even swap ships. ORCA's are one of the most versatile indy ships in EVE.

If you are going to manufacture stuff the single most important skill is production efficiency 5. With out it most of what you build will cost more in mats than what you can sell it for. Say for example building battleships, you need PE 5 or you will consume 10-20 mil more in mats than what the ship sells for. profit margins on ships are very tight in EVE. the stuff that has good profit per unit is generally only the stuff that does not sell fast. Anything that sells well will generally net 2-3% profit. So you absolutely need PE 5 to make a profit from manufacturing. mining your own ore will drop costs, but without PE 5 you would make more isk just selling the ore/minerals than you would make selling products you produce with that ore.

You say you plan on being a indy focused player. that is great. this game has a very complex economy and crafting system that takes time a dedication to master. Stick with it and you will really enjoy your game time. I know I do.

REDNECKPRICECHECK
Posted - 2011.07.25 21:12:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Bugsy VanHalen
...mining your own ore will drop costs...


fail

Edart eno
Posted - 2011.07.25 21:43:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Edart eno on 25/07/2011 21:44:45
How about Wormholes? I know many will disagree proposing it to a trader/manufacterer. But you say you are not risk-averse? I know little places where your manufactering and logistics will be as praised as there, combine that with a bit of PI and POS maintenance for your corp.

You'd have a lot to learn but reason I propose it because it is that that will take you away from the 0.01 isk wars and the whole highsec-'low margin isk per time/hassle/clicks/manufactering-alts/...' .And actually show big profits for thorough plans (and beat you down for bad ones)

Garion Irongrip
Posted - 2011.07.26 05:01:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Bugsy VanHalen
Edited by: Bugsy VanHalen on 25/07/2011 20:18:06
Getting one pilot into an ORCA is definitely not a waste of time. even players that do not mine often use orca as a safer mini freighter. But they really excel in mining support. an orca set for max tank for safer hauling can reach over 250,000 ehp and still have lots of cargo space. or maxed for cargo you can get about 100k m3 cargo plus 40k m3 in the corp hanger plus an additional 50k m3 ore hold that comes in handy for mining. I run 3 accounts with two hulk pilots and an orca. it takes about 20 minutes for the two hulks to completely fill the orca with ore approximately 190,000 m3. I often swap out some mods to max out my ehp when I make runs to JITA. I have hardly used my itty 5 since getting the orca.

An orca does require most mining skills to get into it and then a good amount of time into leadership skills to max out the boost. but you do not need all the skills needed for a hulk. astrogeology 5 is not needed for an orca but is needed for a hulk. 15 days saved there to put toward the couple months training needed to get into an orca. orca support is even nice in missions as you can bring it in an use it to swap out parts, haul loot, and even swap ships. ORCA's are one of the most versatile indy ships in EVE.

If you are going to manufacture stuff the single most important skill is production efficiency 5. With out it most of what you build will cost more in mats than what you can sell it for. Say for example building battleships, you need PE 5 or you will consume 10-20 mil more in mats than what the ship sells for. profit margins on ships are very tight in EVE. the stuff that has good profit per unit is generally only the stuff that does not sell fast. Anything that sells well will generally net 2-3% profit. So you absolutely need PE 5 to make a profit from manufacturing. mining your own ore will drop costs, but without PE 5 you would make more isk just selling the ore/minerals than you would make selling products you produce with that ore.

You say you plan on being a indy focused player. that is great. this game has a very complex economy and crafting system that takes time a dedication to master. Stick with it and you will really enjoy your game time. I know I do.


Well, what I meant was that my "main" would be a lot closer to the Orca as is, as I already have most of Mining V done and Astrogeology to IV along with a lot of other skills such as Mining Barge to III, etc... whereas my "alt" has really no mining skills worked at all.. I concentrated on getting him into a decent sized Itty as fast as possible to strictly run support... I figured my best bet was to get the "alt" into a good industrial ship to haul, and then work the trade skills to a reasonable spot to move my own goods around. Then concentrate on one "craft" per character...

That's where the plans I was looking for came in. Did people get their mining all the way to perfect, get a Hulk, and then go R&D? Did they go straight into building ammo, did they go PI, etc... I have no problem with doing my own research, but there is not a lot of "plans" or "builds" out there to research. I just want to be efficient and build as many quality things as possible, and then be able to move them around. A one-man (or two-account) in this case - company, servicing many different needs and being able to make a good dent in some type of market.

Thank all of you for the mostly in-depth replies.

Tauranon
Gallente
Weeesearch
Posted - 2011.07.26 07:24:00 - [11]
 

You've got 6 character slots.

Hulk pilots are regularly traded and not that valuable. I wouldn't make 2 of them, at most I'd train one on one acct, train the other research, manufacturing and invention, (chase opportunities if you want, doesn't have to be absurdly dedicated). Your first miner can provide "enough" capital to kickstart the builders career.

When capital needs for bp's/mins/skillbooks etc subsides, and you've got money to burn, I'd buy a hulk pilot to go in an alt slot of your research/manufacturer, if it turns out you want to mine with both accts. In 2 months time you'll probably have a good idea if you want to field 2 hulks, or hulk+orca, or whether you are making sufficient isk to not require huge self-mined mineral inputs, or whether you are sick of the sight of roids...

As I have a combat main, I did mining on my alt account, and in hindsight, I would have been better served (for my personal idea of fun) by doing other indy things first, and buying an alt hulk character with the combat accts mission running earnings. I think my near perfect hulk alt has spent more time flying a battleship and RRing me in level 5s than it has sucking rock.


Celgar Thurn
Minmatar
Department 10
Posted - 2011.07.26 09:50:00 - [12]
 

'Mined ore is NOT free.' Arguably the number one rule of EVE. If everyone obeys this rule we will all be better off in the long run. Very Happy

You will always find pilots slagging off mining as a profession for various reasons. I would say the main objective is to have fun and enjoy playing the game.Otherwise what's the point? Who wants to go to work after they have come home from work? If you enjoy crafting then do that.

Lando Tarsadan
Posted - 2011.07.26 10:01:00 - [13]
 

I started with 1 accn. and have 5 today. I realised quite fast the need for a big "hauler" as I did alot of hauling contracts. So for me i went gallente Industrial V fast and the ability to add cargo rigs to it. So while making my 2nd pilot able to fly a hulk my first went iteron V and freighter and lastly orca. Started to add more accns to mining and then specialize in production and invention. When i do mine today i have the orca and 4 hulks where when orca is full one of them start hauling back to station. Just about all the toons are able to run PI as well for a nice semi passive income.

For me being able to do hauler contracts were my initial income to build my small fleet as it is today. Being able to do all my logistics my self. makes it easier to do good business as an inventor/manufakture/trader.

Ohh and do get to know excel/spreadsheets, you will need it ALOT.


 

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