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Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.07.25 20:43:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Mendolus on 25/07/2011 20:45:24
Originally by: Meryl SinGarda
Originally by: GM Homonoia


Can baiting (or other such tactics) rookie players: Is not allowed and considered an exploit in these systems.


Is this considered an exploit because you'd be exploiting the limited EVE knowledge of a new player into getting killed? In regards to games, I have always known exploits to be something you did that goes around mechanics of the game and seeing a rule like this kinda makes me a little weary about ever can-baiting anyone. (not that I ever have, but I've seen it plenty of times)

Also, is can-flipping the same?


It's pretty much a common sense thing, the game relies on incoming subscriptions to offset or exceed the number of outgoing subscriptions, so if you go to a rookie system and **** off a bunch of trial players who do not end up subscribing, you are gonna eventually get in trouble with the GMs.

Now if you fly to a trade hub and drop half a dozen cans labeled, "NOMs Inside!" and some poor nooblet who traveled into the area takes it upon himself to steal your goods, that is their own problem, they left the starting area of the game and are no longer of the immediacy that CCP can legitimately harangue you for ****ing off trial members until they uninstall.

That still does not make it technically right, insofar as the argument above that sending trial players packing is bad for business, but you will find a vast number of short sighted individuals that claim if a rookie cannot handle being blown up a thousand times in his first night of play that he is not EVE material.

Personally I would rather see most trial players at least get a fair shot at making it through the entirety of their trial period before they decide whether to subscribe or not; the idea of baiting them into absurdity in the first evening of gameplay does not sit well with me. A lot of new subscribers could be had if they actually got a chance to play some real EVE rather than get baited by opportunists and driven off before they actually get a true shot at understanding the nature of the game to begin with.

EVE is not a sea of gankers popping you back to your rookie ships every five minutes but we give trial players that impression when we exploit them mercilessly.

Edit: As far as can baiting/flipping, at belts, outside rookie systems, and in space in general, etc. that's just part of the game so feel free.

Ilkahn
Gallente
United Aerospace Co-op
Posted - 2011.07.25 21:02:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Ilkahn on 25/07/2011 21:03:23
LOL, love the "HALP". Otherwise i don't think you thought about a thing i wrote, problem #2 around here. True new players don't understand the game mechanics. Also, why in GODS name would anyone really give a rats behind what they do to the starter systems unless they enjoy helping, baiting, or mining as ultra safe as can be. I'm going to gank the next retriever i see in a starter system too, it's just not right, poor noobs trying to make 40 isk and they can't because there's a mining op going on in the 1.0 systems that rivals anything you see in null sec. Pathetic.

I do agree with you whole heartedly that i too would like to see the TRUE new players left to experience the game in relative peace till they can decide whether to pay to play or not.
Originally by: Mendolus
Edited by: Mendolus on 25/07/2011 20:27:06



So you're saying they are too incompetent to understand the popup notification, but we need some tutorial to try and explain the petition system in depth when they do not even understand what they did wrong? What would they write in the petition, "I got blowed up, HALP!"

...?
I am sorry if I sound a bit crass, but seriously... I am having a hard time understanding why there is even an argument that rookies who cannot understand the very clear notification that they are committing a criminal act, are then confused when someone blows them up after committing said act, and are then supposed to be coddled into the petition system for what, their lack of language comprehension? The reason baiters in those systems get away with it is because people are not paying attention period whether you batter them over the head with tutorials about how to create petitions or not.

There is no clear solution here and never has been, you either restrict rookie systems further and raise the ire of the rest of the subscription base, or you make more and more ... popup windows about how to file petitions that the target demographic of our discussion are already incapable of understanding to begin with, as you so aptly pointed out.


Edit: CCPs declaring it an exploit which can be petitioned is likely as good as it is ever going to get, otherwise they would obviously touched on this when they literally revamped the entire Rookie Experience.

Raid'En
Posted - 2011.07.25 21:02:00 - [33]
 

Edited by: Raid''En on 25/07/2011 21:03:05
Edited by: Raid''En on 25/07/2011 21:02:45
Originally by: GM Homonoia

Can baiting (or other such tactics) rookie players: Is not allowed and considered an exploit in these systems.

are your logs going 4 years in the past ? xD
(serious question btw, i didn't knew about the loses tab at this time, and so never knew his name as the killmail disappeared before i heard about this function, it's too bad old KM are not visible :/)

MaiLina KaTar
Posted - 2011.07.25 21:38:00 - [34]
 

Originally by: GM Homonoia
Corp hopping: This is never an exploit with one exception; you are not allowed to join a corporation that is at war while you are in space and in the same system as a war target of that corporation.

So there ya have it. Enjoy your metagame, empire folk. Just set up a bunch of backup corps to jump to as soon as someone wardecs you. Easy peasy invincible empire corps for everyone at the cost of a few alt char trades to bring over them corphangar contents.

The DB guys should *love* this perfectly fine way of abusing the system.


dexington
Caldari
Baconoration
Posted - 2011.07.25 21:48:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: MaiLina KaTar

The DB guys should *love* this perfectly fine way of abusing the system.



Compared to all the other database operations involved in running eve, the corp jumping is a drop in the ocean.

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.07.25 23:10:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Ilkahn
Edited by: Ilkahn on 25/07/2011 21:03:23
LOL, love the "HALP". Otherwise i don't think you thought about a thing i wrote, problem #2 around here. True new players don't understand the game mechanics. Also, why in GODS name would anyone really give a rats behind what they do to the starter systems unless they enjoy helping, baiting, or mining as ultra safe as can be. I'm going to gank the next retriever i see in a starter system too, it's just not right, poor noobs trying to make 40 isk and they can't because there's a mining op going on in the 1.0 systems that rivals anything you see in null sec. Pathetic.

I do agree with you whole heartedly that i too would like to see the TRUE new players left to experience the game in relative peace till they can decide whether to pay to play or not.



Nah, I mean I read what you said, and I was on my way out of the office so, I may have not sat and thought about it for five minutes like I could have, but I was just more perturbed in principle by the idea that more and more warning prompts or dialogs would solve the situation,

Shocked

i.e. obviously if they cannot understand the prompt that warns them they are about to be a baddie in space by stealing from a can, then throwing more prompts explaining that same concept in even greater detail is probably not going to cut it.

The fix I was referring to that would rile up the rest of the subscriber base though is if starter systems only allowed rookie ships, as in, the stargates had restrictions on them. That is the only true fix, because you'll never be able to really teach the noobs without leading by example, and you'll never be able to entirely prevent older pilots from coming in there themselves and stirring up trouble, since some of them do not even know these rules declaring such things clearly as exploitation and offenses that can be petitioned.

But I really really doubt the player base would go for this, and it would cause a big stink.

I think if CCP knew of a good way to fix it, or even a different way to do it, they would have in the past revamp as I noted...

...in the end, none of matters to me personally in the grand scheme of things because the last time I was a real rookie in a rookie system was years ago. But it is at least interesting to have a dialog about it and I do apologize for being crass, but I too generally expect less and less of these forums on a day to day basis. Thanks for the good discussion and maybe by some rare feat, CCP will have already hashed something out that they simply have not implemented yet, given the expected influx of all new trial players based solely on the presence of avatars to draw them in where they would not initially have been interested previously.

o7

Utremi Fasolasi
Gallente
La Dolce Vita
Posted - 2011.07.26 00:19:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Mendolus
Edit: CCPs declaring it an exploit which can be petitioned is likely as good as it is ever going to get, otherwise they would obviously touched on this when they literally revamped the entire Rookie Experience.


Note that it is only the 12 systems where toons are born that this applies, the ones with Aura under the Agents tab of the neocom, not the systems where the career agents are. Those systems are open season as it were.

I'm getting the sense folks on this thread not familiar with the matter haven't followed the link the GM posted about what systems this is for.

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2011.07.26 00:26:00 - [38]
 

The check and balance to it is that corp hopping is a good way to taint the long term value of a character and potentially limit future activities in the game.

Everything is incremental and the influence might be small in many cases. It might be _farily clear that the character was just avoiding war decs.. but thats a bio with a record for cowardice too.

Just one more thing to explain or just a small blemish sure.. but a blemish to many people who might potentially be interested in buying the character or having them in a corp in the future.

Ephereal Kion
Posted - 2011.07.26 00:54:00 - [39]
 

Edited by: Ephereal Kion on 26/07/2011 00:54:40
Originally by: Mendolus
Originally by: Ilkahn
Edited by: Ilkahn on 25/07/2011 21:03:23
LOL, love the "HALP". Otherwise i don't think you thought about a thing i wrote, problem #2 around here. True new players don't understand the game mechanics. Also, why in GODS name would anyone really give a rats behind what they do to the starter systems unless they enjoy helping, baiting, or mining as ultra safe as can be. I'm going to gank the next retriever i see in a starter system too, it's just not right, poor noobs trying to make 40 isk and they can't because there's a mining op going on in the 1.0 systems that rivals anything you see in null sec. Pathetic.

I do agree with you whole heartedly that i too would like to see the TRUE new players left to experience the game in relative peace till they can decide whether to pay to play or not.



Nah, I mean I read what you said, and I was on my way out of the office so, I may have not sat and thought about it for five minutes like I could have, but I was just more perturbed in principle by the idea that more and more warning prompts or dialogs would solve the situation,

Shocked

i.e. obviously if they cannot understand the prompt that warns them they are about to be a baddie in space by stealing from a can, then throwing more prompts explaining that same concept in even greater detail is probably not going to cut it.

The fix I was referring to that would rile up the rest of the subscriber base though is if starter systems only allowed rookie ships, as in, the stargates had restrictions on them. That is the only true fix, because you'll never be able to really teach the noobs without leading by example, and you'll never be able to entirely prevent older pilots from coming in there themselves and stirring up trouble, since some of them do not even know these rules declaring such things clearly as exploitation and offenses that can be petitioned.

But I really really doubt the player base would go for this, and it would cause a big stink.

I think if CCP knew of a good way to fix it, or even a different way to do it, they would have in the past revamp as I noted...

...in the end, none of matters to me personally in the grand scheme of things because the last time I was a real rookie in a rookie system was years ago. But it is at least interesting to have a dialog about it and I do apologize for being crass, but I too generally expect less and less of these forums on a day to day basis. Thanks for the good discussion and maybe by some rare feat, CCP will have already hashed something out that they simply have not implemented yet, given the expected influx of all new trial players based solely on the presence of avatars to draw them in where they would not initially have been interested previously.

o7


I (very) recently started helping a complete (true) newb in this game (my wife lol)and it wasn't until I sat next to her and watched her try to work her way through the tutorials that I realised how truly complicated this game was for a new player.

Having to explain the simple things like market, quick undock etc etc i found the main problem was the new players were hit with walls and walls of interface and text that we all are use to seeing, to the point where they just stop reading... so yes missing a pop-up window is very easy (or ignoring it).

And considering the strater missions almost always ask you to open a can and bring something back, opening cans floating around space is almost an encouraged habit by ccp. I know if I wasn't there to help she would have un-installed by now....and tbh she's a damn sight more cut throat than me Laughing

GM Homonoia

Posted - 2011.07.26 01:33:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Utremi Fasolasi
Originally by: Mendolus
Edit: CCPs declaring it an exploit which can be petitioned is likely as good as it is ever going to get, otherwise they would obviously touched on this when they literally revamped the entire Rookie Experience.


Note that it is only the 12 systems where toons are born that this applies, the ones with Aura under the Agents tab of the neocom, not the systems where the career agents are. Those systems are open season as it were.

I'm getting the sense folks on this thread not familiar with the matter haven't followed the link the GM posted about what systems this is for.


This is incorrect. It is not allowed to can bait rookie players in ALL systems that are listed here. That is 24 systems in total, both the 12 starter systems and the 12 career systems. These last are NOT open season.

Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2011.07.26 01:45:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: GM Homonoia
Originally by: Utremi Fasolasi

I'm getting the sense folks on this thread not familiar with the matter haven't followed the link the GM posted about what systems this is for.


This is incorrect. It is not allowed to can bait rookie players in ALL systems that are listed here. That is 24 systems in total, both the 12 starter systems and the 12 career systems. These last are NOT open season.


Laughing

GM Homonoia, can you also confirm/deny the following about character recycling to avoid security status penalties.

Originally by: Breaker77
Originally by: Savage Angel

Once the sec status of that alt gets too low, biomass him. Rinse and repeat.


That is also an exploit which will get you banned.





GM Homonoia

Posted - 2011.07.26 01:56:00 - [42]
 

Originally by: Breaker77


GM Homonoia, can you also confirm/deny the following about character recycling to avoid security status penalties.

Originally by: Breaker77
Originally by: Savage Angel

Once the sec status of that alt gets too low, biomass him. Rinse and repeat.


That is also an exploit which will get you banned.







Yes, recycling alts with the intent to mitigate standings losses or other penalties is an exploit.

Utremi Fasolasi
Gallente
La Dolce Vita
Posted - 2011.07.26 05:04:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: GM Homonoia
Originally by: Utremi Fasolasi
Originally by: Mendolus
Edit: CCPs declaring it an exploit which can be petitioned is likely as good as it is ever going to get, otherwise they would obviously touched on this when they literally revamped the entire Rookie Experience.


Note that it is only the 12 systems where toons are born that this applies, the ones with Aura under the Agents tab of the neocom, not the systems where the career agents are. Those systems are open season as it were.

I'm getting the sense folks on this thread not familiar with the matter haven't followed the link the GM posted about what systems this is for.


This is incorrect. It is not allowed to can bait rookie players in ALL systems that are listed here. That is 24 systems in total, both the 12 starter systems and the 12 career systems. These last are NOT open season.


Embarassed forgot to scroll down, looks like a new page just a few days old compared to what was referenced in previous threads. Darn scroll bar.

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.07.26 15:06:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Ephereal Kion

I (very) recently started helping a complete (true) newb in this game (my wife lol)and it wasn't until I sat next to her and watched her try to work her way through the tutorials that I realised how truly complicated this game was for a new player.

Having to explain the simple things like market, quick undock etc etc i found the main problem was the new players were hit with walls and walls of interface and text that we all are use to seeing, to the point where they just stop reading... so yes missing a pop-up window is very easy (or ignoring it).

And considering the strater missions almost always ask you to open a can and bring something back, opening cans floating around space is almost an encouraged habit by ccp. I know if I wasn't there to help she would have un-installed by now....and tbh she's a damn sight more cut throat than me Laughing


LOL yea, I hadn't really thought about it in terms of the fact that cans are a fairly frequent presence in the tutorials and missions themselves. That's a good point. Maybe player cans should have a different icon? Something more ominous with clear ramifications, ya know, like the big warning tape on the undock button. That might actually at least make it more clear that the floaty dealy in front of you at a station may or may not contain your doom within, lol.


Dalloway Jones
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.08.18 19:44:00 - [45]
 

What a completely dumb thing to waste your time worrying about. I have done the rookie tutorial countless times and NEVER been attacked. When I was brand new to the game I had someone message me while I was mining and say something to the effect of "Hey I don't have room for the loot in this can. Feel free to take it." When I went to take the loot I got the pop up warning that doing so could get me killed. I also noticed that the player had not left the belt but had moved to the far side of it and was just sitting there. I asked in the rookie channel about flagging mechanics and they warned me what could happen to me if I looted the can.

Because I am not a mouth breathing ****** I realized it was a trap, messaged him back "LOL", and left the system.

This is not to say that baiting noobs never happens but I don't think it is quite the epidemic that people think it is. And even if it is the new player has so little to lose at this stage of the game I hardly think that most of them are throwing their hands up in disgust and quitting the game over it if they do get caught in a trap. Frankly if they are this isn't the right game for them.

And before anyone accuses me of being one of these noob griefers I have never killed another player in this game. I suck at pvp.

Taedrin
Gallente
Kushan Industrial
Posted - 2011.08.18 20:21:00 - [46]
 

Awesome thread - we need more of these, where GMs make official statements which can be linked to with regards to what is allowed or what is not. So much more efficient than having every individual player use the petition system whenever they need to ask the same question over and over again.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.09.09 02:08:00 - [47]
 

Well, here's hoping it will remain somewhere in the relatively early few pages of EGD (unlikely though, it'll probably get pushed off by last-minute spam) on this "old forum read-only archive", you know, for reference's sake... they're allegedly closing them today, but no idea at what hour.

Kumq uat
Posted - 2011.09.09 03:33:00 - [48]
 

If you take someone on who has been in 50 corps in 6 months you deserve what you get.


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