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blankseplocked Is corp hopping an exploit or not = NOT
 
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YarrMama
Posted - 2011.07.24 17:26:00 - [1]
 

Edited by: YarrMama on 24/07/2011 17:37:21
I've seen this answered both ways. Anyone know a definative answer or can point me to the right direction. Know 5 toons that war dec hi sec corps to take down their POS's. They join the corp right before the dec goes live, gank the POS and leave for another corp or close their corp. If someone decs them, they close the corp or all drop to another corp.

They have each done this 58 times since 1/18/11. 3 closed corps and 58 corp jumps to avoid war. When does it cross the line from "I'm a miner and don't want to be ganked by griefers" to "I'm a griefer and I want risk free PVP"?

Flame on!

YarrMama
Posted - 2011.07.24 17:28:00 - [2]
 

NVM - Apparently 58 times in 6 months is a valid tactic. I'm saving the response for when I do it and get reported.Twisted Evil

Flame off!

Misanth
RABBLE RABBLE RABBLE
Posted - 2011.07.24 17:29:00 - [3]
 

What, the petition didn't answer your question? Razz

YarrMama
Posted - 2011.07.24 17:33:00 - [4]
 

lol - I did not expect such a fast response. Very Happy I thought it would take weeks.

Holy One
SniggWaffe
Posted - 2011.07.24 17:37:00 - [5]
 

A lot of stuff in eve is either stupidly and 'exploit' or stupidly not. Log in traps, corp hopping, newbie system flipping etc.
Ask yourself: do CCP have the GM man hours to enforce their own rules? Answer: frankly no.

GM Homonoia

Posted - 2011.07.24 17:47:00 - [6]
 

Originally by: Holy One
A lot of stuff in eve is either stupidly and 'exploit' or stupidly not. Log in traps, corp hopping, newbie system flipping etc.
Ask yourself: do CCP have the GM man hours to enforce their own rules? Answer: frankly no.


Log in traps: Logging on or off, no matter the circumstances, is never considered an exploit.

Corp hopping: This is never an exploit with one exception; you are not allowed to join a corporation that is at war while you are in space and in the same system as a war target of that corporation.

Can baiting (or other such tactics) rookie players: Is not allowed and considered an exploit in these systems.

Abdiel Kavash
Caldari
Paladin Order
Fidelas Constans
Posted - 2011.07.24 19:08:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: GM Homonoia
Log in traps: Logging on or off, no matter the circumstances, is never considered an exploit.

Corp hopping: This is never an exploit with one exception; you are not allowed to join a corporation that is at war while you are in space and in the same system as a war target of that corporation.

Can baiting (or other such tactics) rookie players: Is not allowed and considered an exploit in these systems.


Posting to bookmark this thread for later reference.

Akita T
Caldari Navy Volunteer Task Force
Posted - 2011.07.24 19:18:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Akita T on 24/07/2011 19:19:17
Originally by: GM Homonoia
Log in traps: Logging on or off, no matter the circumstances, is never considered an exploit.

Corp hopping: This is never an exploit with one exception; you are not allowed to join a corporation that is at war while you are in space and in the same system as a war target of that corporation.

Can baiting (or other such tactics) rookie players: Is not allowed and considered an exploit in these systems.

How about disbanding a corp as soon as wardecced only to recreate it soon after, repeatedly ? That one, if I remember, was at one point discussed as being borderline exploity.

Also, see
Alliance hopping: It is considered an exploit to join an alliance in order to pass on the war to the alliance, then leave as soon as possible (see : dissolution of the "Immune Empire" wardec-away-service alliance).

Right ?

GM Homonoia

Posted - 2011.07.24 19:33:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Akita T

How about disbanding a corp as soon as wardecced only to recreate it soon after, repeatedly ? That one, if I remember, was at one point discussed as being borderline exploity.



Not an exploit. Dis banding and reforming a corp takes quite a bit of effort (if it is not a lot of effort then I suggest you wardec corporations that are worth it)

Originally by: Akita T


Alliance hopping: It is considered an exploit to join an alliance in order to pass on the war to the alliance, then leave as soon as possible (see : dissolution of the "Immune Empire" wardec-away-service alliance).




Yes, that is an exploit.

Diomedes Calypso
Aetolian Armada
Posted - 2011.07.24 19:42:00 - [10]
 

Its great to have so many answers to these sort of rules on the forums ! (I know we've had here sometimes before but they seem to be coming much more promptly on some issues that were a bit gray in the past)

Aprie
Posted - 2011.07.24 19:46:00 - [11]
 

As far as I'm concerned, if you can do it then it is NOT an exploit. If it is an exploit then CCP should get their butts up and prevent it with in-game mechanics.

Lazy CCP, damn lazy.

Ashley Sky
The Eleventh Commandment
Posted - 2011.07.25 14:33:00 - [12]
 

What about creating 8 alliances and changing between them, every 2 weeks in a predictable rotation? :)

GM Homonoia

Posted - 2011.07.25 14:38:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Ashley Sky
What about creating 8 alliances and changing between them, every 2 weeks in a predictable rotation? :)


Perfectly fine; it'll cost you 8 billion ISK. Just as long as you do not do it when it causes this exploit:

Originally by: Akita T

Alliance hopping: It is considered an exploit to join an alliance in order to pass on the war to the alliance, then leave as soon as possible (see : dissolution of the "Immune Empire" wardec-away-service alliance).


Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.07.25 14:45:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: GM Homonoia
Can baiting (or other such tactics) rookie players: Is not allowed and considered an exploit in these systems.


Ah that explains the newbie slaughter in what could reasonably be called "Rookie Systems" as they are/were Tutorial arc systems - like Hadaugago.

I think you need to revisit this and I'm surprised it hasn't been done years ago Neutral


Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.07.25 14:53:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Othran
Originally by: GM Homonoia
Can baiting (or other such tactics) rookie players: Is not allowed and considered an exploit in these systems.


Ah that explains the newbie slaughter in what could reasonably be called "Rookie Systems" as they are/were Tutorial arc systems - like Hadaugago.

I think you need to revisit this and I'm surprised it hasn't been done years ago Neutral



I hadn't realized that was an exploit. I was recently helping a new player learn the game and these were all over the place. Perhaps this would need to be better policed as rookies don't know better than to take crap out of the cans, let alone that they can petition it.

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.07.25 14:59:00 - [16]
 

Edited by: Othran on 25/07/2011 15:01:33
To expand on this - can baiting in most tutorial arc systems is endemic. No joke, just look at the ship kill stats - and they are NOT npcs.

Eve is brutal. That's the way it is and thats why its lasted so far. Brutal doesn't mean can flipping newbs but to be brutally frank nobody has bothered policing those areas have they?

Needs doing - always has and frankly its always been epic fail. No surprise there really and nobody other than new players care. Let them eat door :P

Edit - for new players reading this you have my sympathy. On one hand you have the EULA, and on the other you can see via stats that its not policed in newbie areas.

GM Homonoia

Posted - 2011.07.25 15:25:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Bagehi
Originally by: Othran
Originally by: GM Homonoia
Can baiting (or other such tactics) rookie players: Is not allowed and considered an exploit in these systems.


Ah that explains the newbie slaughter in what could reasonably be called "Rookie Systems" as they are/were Tutorial arc systems - like Hadaugago.

I think you need to revisit this and I'm surprised it hasn't been done years ago Neutral



I hadn't realized that was an exploit. I was recently helping a new player learn the game and these were all over the place. Perhaps this would need to be better policed as rookies don't know better than to take crap out of the cans, let alone that they can petition it.



Usually we act on these issues when they are reported (these cases are often not as black and white as they may seem), thus it is important to report these cases through a petition (under the Exploit category).

Othran
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.07.25 16:04:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: GM Homonoia
Usually we act on these issues when they are reported (these cases are often not as black and white as they may seem), thus it is important to report these cases through a petition (under the Exploit category).


Most of the cases on dotlan are crystal clear. I'm aware you can't rely on resources like that but the raw data is obtained via the API in most cases and you do have data on that. The data within the system isn't that hard to interpret surely? Newbies are getting massacred due to all the usual exploits. This is happening day in day out and has been for years.

This isn't aimed at GM Homonoia but at CCP in general - newbies expect safe areas to do tutorials. Its that simple and it DOES NOT HAPPEN in Eve.

I'm sure its all :awesome: and :excellent: but I suspect that's not the way it appears to newbies Wink

Ashley Sky
The Eleventh Commandment
Posted - 2011.07.25 18:34:00 - [19]
 

What if... someone were to create an endless supply of corps run by noob characters with only the corp management skill trained, and wardec'd a victim corp.

Every time they wanted to kill someone in the victim corp, they would drop into the noob corp with PvP chars, and gank them, then disband that corp, and join the next corp?

They could then avoid war and kill their victims whenever they felt the need, am I right? Legal by your definition?

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.07.25 18:52:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Ashley Sky
What if... someone were to create an endless supply of corps run by noob characters with only the corp management skill trained, and wardec'd a victim corp.

Every time they wanted to kill someone in the victim corp, they would drop into the noob corp with PvP chars, and gank them, then disband that corp, and join the next corp?

They could then avoid war and kill their victims whenever they felt the need, am I right? Legal by your definition?


Rolling Eyes Empire Dwellers™ Laughing

Valerie Valate
Amarr
Church of The Crimson Saviour
Posted - 2011.07.25 18:53:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Othran
To expand on this - can baiting in most tutorial arc systems is endemic. No joke, just look at the ship kill stats - and they are NOT npcs.


In one of the tutorial chains, there's 2 missions where they give you a cheap ship which is destroyed in the mission. does this have any effect on the stats?

Savage Angel
Gallente
Gambler's Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.25 19:05:00 - [22]
 

Can baiting sounds like a great opportunity. Start an alt, join your pvp corp, then go around grabbing stuff from the cans, with your buddies just off grid. When someone shoots, have your corp mates warp in and open up on him.

Once the sec status of that alt gets too low, biomass him. Rinse and repeat.

Zleon Leigh
Posted - 2011.07.25 19:10:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: GM Homonoia
Originally by: Bagehi
Originally by: Othran
Originally by: GM Homonoia
Can baiting (or other such tactics) rookie players: Is not allowed and considered an exploit in these systems.


Ah that explains the newbie slaughter in what could reasonably be called "Rookie Systems" as they are/were Tutorial arc systems - like Hadaugago.

I think you need to revisit this and I'm surprised it hasn't been done years ago Neutral



I hadn't realized that was an exploit. I was recently helping a new player learn the game and these were all over the place. Perhaps this would need to be better policed as rookies don't know better than to take crap out of the cans, let alone that they can petition it.



Usually we act on these issues when they are reported (these cases are often not as black and white as they may seem), thus it is important to report these cases through a petition (under the Exploit category).



So in the new newbie tutorials they were taught how to petition and when? No, I didn't think so. As cited earlier - happens all the time, but new players don't know they are being grief'd (there's a thought - might be helpful to explain that concept in the tutorial's as well).

Game mechanic should enforce no change of can ownership in school systems unless set blue by pilot. That simple fix would end a large part of petitionable griefing.

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.07.25 19:32:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Zleon Leigh

So in the new newbie tutorials they were taught how to petition and when? No, I didn't think so. As cited earlier - happens all the time, but new players don't know they are being grief'd (there's a thought - might be helpful to explain that concept in the tutorial's as well).

Game mechanic should enforce no change of can ownership in school systems unless set blue by pilot. That simple fix would end a large part of petitionable griefing.



They were warned taking the contents of the can was a criminal act and would flag them to the owner.
The only crime here is that people are too impatient to read a line of text in a popup window these days.

I do NOT feel sorry for them, even if I agree wholeheartedly that it is clearly exploitive and should verily be petitioned in that regard.

Ilkahn
Gallente
United Aerospace Co-op
Posted - 2011.07.25 19:52:00 - [25]
 

The whole attitude of shrugging off the incident and saying they should have read the message is the problem. I guarantee you that 99.9 percent of new players read the message but they do not realize the implications it carries. They aren't aware of the "Stop or I'll Shoot" application. Also, they should perma-ban every hulk pilot in the starter systems.
Originally by: Mendolus

They were warned taking the contents of the can was a criminal act and would flag them to the owner.
The only crime here is that people are too impatient to read a line of text in a popup window these days.

I do NOT feel sorry for them, even if I agree wholeheartedly that it is clearly exploitive and should verily be petitioned in that regard.

Ilkahn
Gallente
United Aerospace Co-op
Posted - 2011.07.25 19:57:00 - [26]
 

Edited by: Ilkahn on 25/07/2011 20:00:24
I also periodically go to Clellinon to help new players. It's always a disaster in there, or almost always.

Here's an idea, why doesn't CCP allow us an alt account which every 40 hours of "guard" duty in the new systems pay us a plex. Make it an application process with a seperate toon on your account to do nothing but log in, supervise the new players and answer their questions giving more 1 on 1 time from experienced players. If can baiting is observed, you have a "911 button" direct to CCP to go immediately to system and take whatever action is necessary or correct the "guard".

I'd like to see CONCORD by one of my toons Shocked.

Speaker4 theDead
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.25 20:13:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: GM Homonoia
Originally by: Holy One
A lot of stuff in eve is either stupidly and 'exploit' or stupidly not. Log in traps, corp hopping, newbie system flipping etc.
Ask yourself: do CCP have the GM man hours to enforce their own rules? Answer: frankly no.


Log in traps: Logging on or off, no matter the circumstances, is never considered an exploit.

Corp hopping: This is never an exploit with one exception; you are not allowed to join a corporation that is at war while you are in space and in the same system as a war target of that corporation.

Can baiting (or other such tactics) rookie players: Is not allowed and considered an exploit in these systems.



Hmm, I wonder how many people actually know about [b]...

Mendolus
Aurelius Federation
Posted - 2011.07.25 20:24:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: Mendolus on 25/07/2011 20:27:06
Originally by: Ilkahn
The whole attitude of shrugging off the incident and saying they should have read the message is the problem. I guarantee you that 99.9 percent of new players read the message but they do not realize the implications it carries. They aren't aware of the "Stop or I'll Shoot" application. Also, they should perma-ban every hulk pilot in the starter systems.
Originally by: Mendolus

They were warned taking the contents of the can was a criminal act and would flag them to the owner.
The only crime here is that people are too impatient to read a line of text in a popup window these days.

I do NOT feel sorry for them, even if I agree wholeheartedly that it is clearly exploitive and should verily be petitioned in that regard.



So you're saying they are too incompetent to understand the popup notification, but we need some tutorial to try and explain the petition system in depth when they do not even understand what they did wrong? What would they write in the petition, "I got blowed up, HALP!"

...?

I'm failing to see how these people in particular you speak of should even get an ounce of developer time on this subject matter to be honest.

I am sorry if I sound a bit crass, but seriously... I am having a hard time understanding why there is even an argument that rookies who cannot understand the very clear notification that they are committing a criminal act, are then confused when someone blows them up after committing said act, and are then supposed to be coddled into the petition system for what, their lack of language comprehension? The reason baiters in those systems get away with it is because people are not paying attention period whether you batter them over the head with tutorials about how to create petitions or not.

There is no clear solution here and never has been, you either restrict rookie systems further and raise the ire of the rest of the subscription base, or you make more and more ... popup windows about how to file petitions that the target demographic of our discussion are already incapable of understanding to begin with, as you so aptly pointed out.


Edit: CCPs declaring it an exploit which can be petitioned is likely as good as it is ever going to get, otherwise they would obviously touched on this when they literally revamped the entire Rookie Experience.

Breaker77
Gallente
Reclamation Industries
Posted - 2011.07.25 20:26:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Savage Angel

Once the sec status of that alt gets too low, biomass him. Rinse and repeat.


That is also an exploit which will get you banned.


Meryl SinGarda
Caldari
Belligerent Underpayed Tactical Team
Posted - 2011.07.25 20:33:00 - [30]
 

Originally by: GM Homonoia


Can baiting (or other such tactics) rookie players: Is not allowed and considered an exploit in these systems.


Is this considered an exploit because you'd be exploiting the limited EVE knowledge of a new player into getting killed? In regards to games, I have always known exploits to be something you did that goes around mechanics of the game and seeing a rule like this kinda makes me a little weary about ever can-baiting anyone. (not that I ever have, but I've seen it plenty of times)

Also, is can-flipping the same?


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