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blankseplocked [Proposal] EVE needs MT for skill points to survive.
 
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CanIPost Please
Posted - 2011.08.02 22:33:00 - [61]
 

Toovhon, these are the assertions you just made. Please re-examine them:

1.People who advocate being able to increase the efficiency of their skillpoint accumulation want INSTANT gratification.
2.Said people are currently "failures" in EVE Online.
3.MMO's need "progression and economic decision making".
4.The current system in EVE Online imposes "progression and economic decision making", and to a higher degree than one we might be advocating.
5.Changing EVE's system to make for the possibility of more efficient skillpoint accumulation would make EVE "dumb".

Duchess, catching up to an older player, with more skillpoints, who is actively acquiring more, is not possible. (The imbalance is static.) Also, if skillpoints only give a limited boost in performance, then why even bother limiting their accumulation to such a great extent.

Thomas, I did biomass, actually.
Also, if you want the playing field to be perfectly level, then you can't just nerf real money. You have to nerf intelligence, luck, and how much time players are allowed to even play. But, if you're so committed to fair play, then that should be cool with you; right? And, in fact, we should give all the starving children in Africa a computer, an internet connection, and an EVE Online account at our expense, since, according to your logic, we are real-money noobs with a distinct and unfair advantage over them in this game.

Originally by: Navarone Medion
BE GONE, HELLSPAWN! I REBUKE THEE!


lol

ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Posted - 2011.08.02 23:24:00 - [62]
 

Originally by: CanIPost Please

Anyway, here's where we're diverging in our understanding. You think that people pay their "time" to CCP to get skillpoints. I think that people pay their "money" to CCP to get skillpoints. So, you think that people should die a little more before getting their skillpoints and I think that people should just pay a little more before getting their skillpoints. But, let me ask you this: What if someone pre-paid CCP for 10,000 accounts for long enough to train them all to fly a titan? There would still be a glut of titan pilots in your system.

It wouldn't happen, though, because the scarce commodity in the equation is not time, which is always flowing, but rather is money, which is not always being earned and is not always being spent. Either way, the price of "earning" a titan pilot would be measured in money, not time, because an infinite number of titan pilots could be trained in the same span of time that one titan pilot could be trained. It would just take an infinite amount of money.


I think you are playing down the "time" factor a bit too much sir.

While "time" may be in constant motion the way people wish to spend their "time" also accounts for why we see so many supercapital pilots (or lack of, relatively speaking).

To strictly train a character to use such a ship in an effective manner requires a large chunk of "time"... "time" which a person may or may not be willing to spend as he/she can train up a plethora of much more "useful" skills given the same frame of "time."
Now, one CAN get around this by creating an alt and training it up... but realistically few want to create such a thing not completely due to the money involved, but for the simple fact that it would require a LARGE investment of "time" to get that character to do one thing... and given that we humans prefer more immediate gratification over long term rewards that kind of investment of "time" just isn't something that many can rationalize.

This is what makes supercapital-capable characters so coveted within the character baazar... not that people have spent X amount of money to train that character that way (though, that certainly IS a factor), but that people have spend X amount of "time" to get that character that way.

Now...

I vastly prefer the current skill system BECAUSE it limits me. I can't "grind up" my power so I am forced to "use my head" on how I can best utilize what skills, equipment, and people I have available.
Moreover, once I have "perfect skills" in an area I can't extract any more of an advantage out of my character that a newbie can't also get in roughly the same amount of time. In fact, because the skill system is set up to provide "diminishing returns" after a certain point, a newbie can be flying at about 75 to 90% of my effectiveness in less time than it took me to get "perfect skills."

For me, this isn't about "protecting the older player's advantages." This is about preserving "the journey"... the "development process"... that one must take to "see" the game for what it is. This is about preventing the "bar" from being arbitrarily raised on many different walks of life within the game because some people can't show some patience. This is about making people USE THEIR HEADS to get ahead rather than buy their way to the top and expect to be great. I SAY NO TO MICROTRANSACTIONS FOR SKILL POINTS!!

Thomas Turnpoint
Posted - 2011.08.03 04:13:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: CanIPost Please
catching up to an older player, with more skillpoints, who is actively acquiring more, is not possible.


That couldn't be further from the truth, and it's proof that you aren't reading what the rest of the users here are saying.
If someone with 15million skill points has all of them trained into industry, research, mining, construction, PI, and so on, they may still not be able to fly a Cruiser. In the time it takes them to train Mining Barge 5, you could create a character and train it up to a level that would allow you to destroy the Hulk they are training to fly.
You simply want to pay for 1-click win.

When you biomassed your characters, you missed one.


Toovhon
Posted - 2011.08.03 05:05:00 - [64]
 

Originally by: CanIPost Please
Toovhon, these are the assertions you just made. Please re-examine them:

1.People who advocate being able to increase the efficiency of their skillpoint accumulation want INSTANT gratification.
2.Said people are currently "failures" in EVE Online.
3.MMO's need "progression and economic decision making".
4.The current system in EVE Online imposes "progression and economic decision making", and to a higher degree than one we might be advocating.
5.Changing EVE's system to make for the possibility of more efficient skillpoint accumulation would make EVE "dumb".

Duchess, catching up to an older player, with more skillpoints, who is actively acquiring more, is not possible. (The imbalance is static.) Also, if skillpoints only give a limited boost in performance, then why even bother limiting their accumulation to such a great extent.

Thomas, I did biomass, actually.
Also, if you want the playing field to be perfectly level, then you can't just nerf real money. You have to nerf intelligence, luck, and how much time players are allowed to even play. But, if you're so committed to fair play, then that should be cool with you; right? And, in fact, we should give all the starving children in Africa a computer, an internet connection, and an EVE Online account at our expense, since, according to your logic, we are real-money noobs with a distinct and unfair advantage over them in this game.

Originally by: Navarone Medion
BE GONE, HELLSPAWN! I REBUKE THEE!


lol


People who can't understand they don't need [insert uber high level skill here] in Eve to have fun or group, are failures at Eve. Sorry, but I don't need to re-examine that. It is what it is.

Plus there is already a way to maximise SP efficiency - remaps and planning ahead, with a focus on one area at a time, usually. Though I rarely bother on this guy (my high sec generalist) and still have fun.

So I'm sorry (I'm not really, I'm just being polite), but if you're not having fun in Eve and you think more SPs would help, you're failing.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.03 06:38:00 - [65]
 

Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 03/08/2011 06:56:31

Originally by: CanIPost Please
snip


Closed systems do exist. We create them as theoretical constructs.
In such systems you have to abide by the ruled of the system. Like chess.
You are essentially arguing that you can win a chess match by punching your opponent in the face, causing them to forfeit the match ( and you happen to be Mike Tyson ). Sure, you can but then you only won because you employed tactics outside of the established rules of the system /game.

The rules is this
You pay ccp x dollars a month to play and train 1 account. Everyone trains at the same speed.
Quote:
What if someone pre-paid CCP for 10,000 accounts for long enough to train them all to fly a titan? There would still be a glut of titan pilots in your system.

Aha yes, but you would have 10000 SEPARATE individual Titan pilots all which took 6 months to train and can all do nothing else but fly titans. In your world you could have 1 pilot who can fly titans, fly jump freighters, and have maxxed out skills everywhere in 1 day. This is impossible in the current system no matter how much money you pay or accounts you have. No one player in eve has maxxed everything skills. None. And nor should there be. Unless they have been playing over 16 years. You see the difference right? Every one toon, farmed or not, trains 1 skill at a time at a set rate. No simultaneous multiple training allowed. That is the rule.

Why should you be allowed to catchup? You can't catchup to Bill Gates or Steve jobs.
They will always be richer than you if you both keep your money at the same bank.
Thankfully they buy things and have hobbies that burn significantly more $ than your humble lifestyle.

Many people signed on to play this system or game that ccp set out. Many are still playing. Your change is like proposing to change the rules of chess to Boxing-chess halfway through a chess tournament. We don't want to play boxing chess. If you do go play it in wow or diablo3 or something else.

PaulTheConvoluted
Posted - 2011.08.03 14:12:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: ShahFluffers
I vastly prefer the current skill system BECAUSE it limits me.
And others, like me, dislike it for the exact same reason.

Yes, I am having fun. Yes, I can fly of lot of stuff (by now). Yes, I can manufacture / mine / reprocess / shoot / etc a lot (by now). And still, Eve Online is the game of 'Not Yet'. There is sooo much you can do, and every time you feel like doing something else, you can't. You have to train it first. And by the time you're done training, your mood probably shifted and now you want to do something else. It's not about 'catching up', it's about being able to do in the sandbox what you want to do without 'artificial' boundaries.

While this feeling gets diminished with every skill point you gain, it is a huge problem for people who are just starting out. We already have a system that lets you gain the first 1.6m SP at double the rate, so it is already alleviated a bit, but I can easily see why new players dislike the system.

If I had discovered Eve earlier on and paid CCP the amount needed for (for instance) 12 months of game time, I would have had that much more skill points. Do I need to do anything to get those skill points? Nah, only making sure your queue doesn't empty. Would you have noticed me playing a year sooner? Probably not.

How much does the game loose out on if I pay CCP for a year and only log in to change my skills? I'd say, the way I'm playing, not much, if anything. In fact, most ppl take a break from Eve every now and then, and as long as their subscription lasts, they keep training. You don't get to enjoy my presence, but I still get the SP.

What, effectively, happens to the game when training AFK? The player gets more SP, the game itself changes nothing, zero, nada. I therefor fail to see what would be so bad about buying SP (and here's the important part:) up to a certain point.

It would be bad indeed if everyone could, overnight, fly a titan, marauder, hulk, T3, everything. It would, however, enable the new guys a way to either be (mechanically, they still need to learn to operate it properly) good at something in short order, or get lots of stuff to do without having to wait ages before they have a bit of freedom to do what they want. That way, they can actually explore those avenues and decide if they like what they see, instead of giving up because the game frustrates them every turn they take by tantalizingly showing them what they _could_ do, but can't...

There is ofc. the crowd that indeed won't play because they can't 'catch up', you will not reach them with this scheme, but I think you will see less ppl leave because they can't do what they want, not because the game doesn't offer them the option, but because the game tells them they can't do it yet.

As soon as ppl have found out in what direction they want to go they can create a plan and become very good at that, but I still remember my early days where I didn't play for days, not because I didn't like the game, but because I was waiting for skills to finish.

CanIPost Please
Posted - 2011.08.03 19:43:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Closed systems do exist . . . chess . . . Mike Tyson . . . tactics outside of the established rules of the system /game.


So, you just gave an example of a "closed" system and then gave an example of how said system is, in fact, not a closed system, then offered us the opportunity to make a moral judgement on someone exploiting the openness of that system.

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
The [rule] is this
You pay ccp x dollars a month to play and train 1 account. Everyone trains at the same speed.


Unless you have multiple accounts, which is one example of how EVE is not a closed system. Another? Selling PLEX for ISK. Another? Having more friends who play with you than the next guy. Being smarter than other players. Having more time to play. Botting . . . there is already imbalance that can be exploited in a number of ways. I propose to you that if there was such a great demand for skillpoints, the system would already see people investing what resources they have into generating more skillpoints. Me? I don't want to pay $10,000 to be a cyber-God. I just don't want to wait 3 months to fly a Skiff around low sec. And, can I get a pink camouflage paintjob on that (or maybe a bullseye)?

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
In your world you could have 1 pilot who can fly titans, fly jump freighters, and have maxxed out skills everywhere in 1 day. This is impossible in the current system


Somewhat true. One cannot buy a totally max skilled player, currently. However, in the current system, you can have 1 player who can fly titans and jump freighters SIMULTANEOUSLY. In truth, you're only gimping people who don't have the time and money to run such a setup by disallowing accelerated skillpoint accumulation. Rich people will find ways to gain advantage. They're good at that, hence, they're rich. They do it in real life.

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Why should you be allowed to catchup? You can't catchup to Bill Gates or Steve jobs.


I hate to put this to you, and to put it to you in such a harsh way, but if I assasinated Bill Gates or Steve Jobs, I winzordlolpwnwtfed them. I winned them! Life is a ****ed up little game that way. That's why we play video games, instead. Also, if I make a better personal computer than Steve Jobs or a better operating system than Bill Gates, I winned them!
Your analogy fails spectacularly . . . but that's the best way to fail; I think.

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Many people signed on to play this system or game that ccp set out. Many are still playing. Your change is like proposing to change the rules of chess to Boxing-chess [hilarious, BTW] halfway through a chess tournament. We don't want to play boxing chess. If you do go play it in wow or diablo3 or something else.


Different chess tournaments have different "ground rules" which appeal to different players much like high sec, low sec, null and wormhole space in EVE. The difference with chess is that it is a much, much, much simpler game and there is a much harder "level cap" on chess that really hasn't changed since the creation of the game. I don't have a problem with keeping EVE perfectly static, but if you are advocating that, then you are advocating rolling EVE back to it's original build. Otherwise, you accept that it should change and are just arbitrarily dictating which changes you think are acceptable.

And, I hit level 6 Draenei Shaman, yesterday.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.03 23:50:00 - [68]
 

Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 03/08/2011 23:56:04
Quote:
Somewhat true. One cannot buy a totally max skilled player, currently. However, in the current system, you can have 1 player who can fly titans and jump freighters SIMULTANEOUSLY.



Somewhat? TOTALLY true I think.
And getting that character who can fly everything will take years of training. AS IT SHOULD.
In your world you can get these uber characters in a day by using real money.

And that's the whole problem isn't it? Allow this and you have instant uber characters. It's not the increase of Titan (or whatever pilots) that is a problem ( that's just equivalent to a birth rate in real life ) it's the allowing of super players that's a no no.
Quote:

In truth, you're only gimping people who don't have the time and money to run such a setup by disallowing accelerated skillpoint accumulation. Rich people will find ways to gain advantage. They're good at that, hence, they're rich. They do it in real life.


But here is where you continue to fail your Econ.

Money and wealth are internal to the game of life. Getting rich is still playing by the rules internal to the system. Does counterfeiting count as getting rich? Sure but it's breaking the rules that everyone else has the play by, savvy? If you don't get this, then you never will. Luckily I think that everyone else does.

Thanks for bringing up the bill gates analogy to prove my point. By KILLING them, I supposed you win, but you cheated now and broke the rules right?
You are condoning that murder should be legalized.

Quote:
Different chess tournaments have diff ground rules


Okay sure but do you seriously want us to accept "boxing" chess is a valid version of chess, a game which is a test of intellect? I think most sane people will tell you to stick to boxing and stop trying to change the game of chess to suit your own selfish goals.

Seriously, I think the points are pretty black and white.


CanIPost Please
Posted - 2011.08.04 02:46:00 - [69]
 

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Somewhat? TOTALLY true I think. And getting that character who can fly everything will take years of training. AS IT SHOULD. In your world you can get these uber characters in a day by using real money.


Sorry. What I should have said is that your point was totally true, but only somewhat relevant, since a player can already "earn", buy, beg for, steal, or borrow a character or set of characters that can do what that one (multi-thousand dollar) uber-character could do . . . and they could all be logged into Tranquility at the same time, to boot.

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
And that's the whole problem isn't it? . . . it's the allowing of super players that's a no no.


There are already uber-players, except we tend to call them "veterans".

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
But here is where you continue to fail your Econ.

Money and wealth are internal to the game of life. Getting rich is still playing by the rules internal to the system. Does counterfeiting count as getting rich? Sure but it's breaking the rules that everyone else has the play by, savvy? If you don't get this, then you never will. Luckily I think that everyone else does.


Here is where you fail econ. The production of "goods" and the rendering of "services" is exactly the addition of value (money, wealth, energy, order, etc.) into a system. If you don't like "free" skillpoints, then I'll bet you hate "free" pirate bounties and "free" ore in asteroids belts and "free" characters (i.e., CCP wouldn't instantiate them on Tranquility, except that you are willing to pay them for doing so.)

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Thanks for bringing up the bill gates analogy to prove my point. By KILLING them, I supposed you win, but you cheated now and broke the rules right?
You are condoning that murder should be legalized.


I don't condone murder. I might not even eat other organisms for food if there were a viable, practical alternative. Let's be real, though. Murder is the single most profitable activity in the history of human-kind, from killing cows, to cutting down trees, to war, because when you kill something, you get to keep its stuff.

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Okay sure but do you seriously want us to accept "boxing" chess is a valid version of chess, a game which is a test of intellect? I think most sane people will tell you to stick to boxing and stop trying to change the game of chess to suit your own selfish goals.


You play a game where pixels on a monitor, controlled by rules (which are often changed by the creators/administrators of said game) which reside in a very powerful computer thousands of miles away from you, in a far away "ice land", and representing space and objects in a far science fiction future, interact with one another in complex, sometimes unpredictable ways to produce outcomes that are arbitrarily interpretable as success or failure based on which of the massive number of participants is observing.

But . . . boxing-chess is crazy? And, I don't think paying money directly to CCP for more in-game potential is quite as drastic as Gary Kasparov having his hands wrapped before a match with Deep Blue.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.04 04:51:00 - [70]
 

Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 04/08/2011 04:52:53
Really?
Seriously, do try to read and comprehend what my point is before you give a knee jerk response.

Quote:
value (money, wealth, energy, order, etc.) into a system. If you don't like "free" skillpoints, then I'll bet you hate "free" pirate bounties and "free" ore


Right and if you indeed understand economies all these things are within the game economy.

You want real money to be "part of" this economy. You want it to be a means of utility in this economy. That is where all your argument goes down the drain.

Ask yourself this. Should a big muscle man wrestler be at an advantage playing eve vs a girl?
No right? The rules should treat them the same. They should have both equal opportunity to do well or fail in the game of eve.

And so should the arguement go for people who are richer in real life than others.
QED

The chess analogy is sound. The rules of chess do not include advantages for those in the physical world. That's why a game between deep blue and Kasparov is still FAIR and within the rules. It wouldn't be fair though if Kasparov could unplug deep blue just because he happens to have hands, and the means to do it. ( ps that's an analogy for people like you ) Thanks for proving my point again.

You can be Kasparov because you were born later. Maybe if you study chess as long as he has, then you can ONE DAY be as good as he was at his prime. But you have to put in the time and effort, just like he did.
Exactly the case with veterans and noobs in eve.


Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.04 04:59:00 - [71]
 

To continue the list of analogies that all but a select few on this thread understand as obvious.

Real life:
Op wants counterfeit us dollars to be legal. Anyone who can afford to buy the plates and a printing press should be able to print money and it will be perfectly legal. Unfortunately these plates are expensive. So only the really rich can buy them. And you can only buy them with diamonds. So only diamond mine owners can print their own money.

And he wants to argue that this is fair and economically sound.

Completely ludicrous.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.04 05:22:00 - [72]
 

Want more?

Let's say I petition CCP to add a rule to this forum that requires people to get background checks, and people without university degrees or do not work in finance industry are no longer allowed to post any comments on any economic related topics in eve. The argument goes the lack of a clue from people speaking from out of their area of expertise just wastes everyones time.

Would you support this?
Likely not, because forums are supposed to be fair and equal opportunities should be given to those of any race religion education stupid smart without arms or wit or wheel chair bound.
So long as you can log into the Internet, you can post your opinion.

Now as much as I, and I'm sure many others here would love this rule to be implemented, it would make us hypocrites now wouldn't it?

CanIPost Please
Posted - 2011.08.04 07:15:00 - [73]
 

Oh, Kaelie Onren (I like that name, btw.), I can't quit you!

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Right and if you indeed understand economies all these things are within the game economy.


If you understand physics, you understand that there is no known system that is separate and immune from interaction with the rest of the universe. The universe is one whole economy of which the EVE Online universe is merely one subset and there is no real way to seal off the EVE universe from the wider economy. "Stuff" seeps in and out, sometimes in ways we cannot even imagine. The EVE economy and the whole economy are in or are attempting to be in equilibrium. What you are suggesting is not that EVE shouldn't interact with the universal economy, since that is impossible. What you are suggesting is that one specific external means of utility (money) be excluded from being allowed to translate directly into an in-game means of utility or from extracting that utility directly from the game with that means. There are many other external means of utility that do translate directly into the EVE economy. You're only picking on money, and that's not fair.

The pirate bounties, the minerals, the characters did not exist in the EVE universe before they were instantiated by Tranquility, i.e., something from nothing, just like your "counterfeit" skillpoints. The only association we can make between the utility of gaining ISK from bounties, the utility of gathering minerals from ore, the utility of accumulating skillpoints with a character, and a means of utility, is by associating said utilities with means that are external to the EVE economy (effort, bandwidth, electricity, education, fingers, capacity to think abstractly, etc.). So, if you want to nerf the possibility of external means generating utility in the EVE universe, then you have to look at all means of utility external to that system, not just money. Otherwise, you're just a sand merchant in the desert, claiming a pound of water and a pound of sand should be valued equally. Unfortunately, some people just have more water.

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
counterfeit money . . . diamonds . . .


That is what YOU are saying, only the "diamonds" in your analogy equates to seniority. You're saying that only players who have x length of months playing should have the possibility of having y skillpoints, but that if they have x money or x amount of effort to put into the game or x whatever, they should be disallowed from acquiring those same skillpoints because somehow that makes the game fair. You are equating the "diamonds" with real money, but even there, the "diamonds" can be acquired by other means, whereas, seniority isn't something that can be acquired.

Here's a solution: Let players sign up for their free trial now. They'll create a character, but then not pay or log on for a year. After that year, the person can log back on, enter their payment method, pay for the previous and next years, and they'll get a year's worth of skillpoints to apply to their character.

Kali Omega
Immortalis Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.04 15:42:00 - [74]
 

Edited by: Kali Omega on 04/08/2011 15:44:02
Oww my head hurts reading all this debating about this nonsense. I can understand both sides of this debate, but have to agree on never selling sp for cash. I'm not sure who said it first but when you are buying a toon in the bazar you are buying sp not the name. So here is the meat and potatos....make a accout with a starter toon go buy yourself as many gtc's as your heart desires and go buy yourself a toon!

Maximum Kiely
Caldari
Kiely and Son Salvage
Posted - 2011.08.04 16:02:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Cendric De'Credsiu
Its not the skill points that are the issue though man, its the fact that most new players when they try the game have no clue what to do. When I started out, I had no clue about focusing my skill training, or how to remap my stats properly.

I had a few friends that I met that actually started helping me out and including me in doing things with them. That made the game fun. We as a community need to make the new player experience better by helping them and including them in activities. The game needs to improve on the new player experience by adding things to help them out and provide enjoyment for them while they train as well.

Mainly its on the community not the game mechanics that will keep or drive players away from the game, and we need to step up to the plate and actively try to keep these players by showing them what is out there in the game and help them with setting up training ques for what they want to do.


Well said Cendric.

This is similar to the feedback I've received from friends I tried to get to play the game. All of them have left, mainly because they feel the cards are stacked against them in so many ways - isk, skills, knowledge, gameplay mechanics,(right or wrong, that's their feedback). They want to "dive in" and instead find themselves restricted to the kiddie pool until they earn enough isk or make enough friends (and making virtual friends can be just as tough as RL friends for some people). The community could certainly play their part in making some of the "learning wall" appear less daunting to a new player. Skills take time, so not much we can do there, but imparting knowledge, fleeting up with new players and even something as simple as letting a new player salvage an L4 Blockade can be a big deal to someone currently making 60K isk running L1s.

Alex Sinai
Mining And Probing Specialists
Posted - 2011.08.04 17:32:00 - [76]
 

I do understand CCP wish to make more money. They are business. So they drop some ideas and see how community respond. Sometimes they wishfully think. They already saw "The Great Unsub" event with that way of thinkinh. What's next? "The Great End"? With "The Great instant gratification players influx with a lot of cash" event in the middle and then "The Great Exodus" event?
Because if CCP does that enormous amount of players will leave. Once their 6-12 months characters biomassed that's it. They wont return. Emotional attachment lost and deep insult gained.

If you proposers of SP for money/isk/whatever else so much want that you picked up wrong game. It happens that people start playing but dont like it later. So stop offering cash to modify the game and go look for the game that suits you instead of making attempts to ruin this game for countless numbers of players.

Ddolik
Posted - 2011.08.04 19:53:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: Lykouleon
Biomass your characters and never come back.


CanIPost Please
Posted - 2011.08.04 22:01:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Kali Omega
Pay to win.


Fine, but I don't want your ****ty character with his ****ty skill tree. I want my own.
And, what are you? A GTC salesman?

The real problem in this discussion is that you guys want to have your cake and eat it to. On the one hand, you claim that skillpoints are not the most decisive factor of one's success in EVE, and that's why there is no need for us to be able to buy skillpoints and that's why the game is perfectly fair. On the other hand, you claim that buying skillpoints would create uber-characters that would dominate the game and that's why it's important to keep skillpoints limited the way they are now.

Well, if skillpoints aren't so important to the game, then why fight so hard against more of them? How would it unbalance the game to have high skillpoint noobs running around dying to lower skillpoint veterans? As it is now, you claim that low skillpoint noobs can already kill high skillpoint veterans, so, what's the problem with reversing who has the most skillpoints? It doesn't detract from the success of a player or the fun a player has in the game; right?

As for the claim that buying skillpoints would create uber-characters that would make the game unfair for poor people who only have so much to spend on this game, well, that argument could be made to limit any number of things in the game. By that argument, CCP could impose a limit on the number of battleships, since flying a battleship gives you an advantage in certain situations. They could limit the amount of ISK you can make per day. They could limit the amount of ore you can mine or the number of ships you can have or the amount of times you can jump or undock from a station per day.

Here's another suggestion: CCP should start a second shard to allow newer players to play in a new universe, one that they had more control in shaping the rules and culture of.

Kali Omega
Immortalis Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.05 02:15:00 - [79]
 

Well canipostplease my skill tree is pretty dam good

http://eveboard.com/pilot/Kali_Omega

Secondly yes I am a gtc sales man, you need one?

Lastly ccp should make a new shard? Umm no.

Spy 21
Caldari
Lonetrek Exploration and Salvage
Posted - 2011.08.05 02:40:00 - [80]
 

Wow 3 pages and no one has yet to mention that between the reduction in SP given to new characters and the removal of learning skills, new players trained at 2x normal speed for the first 1.2 mil SP. (wasn't that long ago)

Didn't break the game... no one suffered...oldsters didn't ragequit en mass... and, it was newbie friendly.

The reason that was stopped is fair enough.. ie removal of learning skills...however, new players are still handicapped today because 1) They usually don't train cybernetics to 4 right away (too many other priorities) and 2) they usually don't have a spare 100 mil ISK to purchase a full set of plus 4's... much less the half a billion a full set of plus 5's can cost.

I say bring back that feature... wouldn't hurt, and would help people like me who just started a new character (revealing my underlying conflict of interest in this post)


ShahFluffers
Ice Fire Warriors
Posted - 2011.08.05 03:16:00 - [81]
 

Edited by: ShahFluffers on 05/08/2011 03:17:32
Originally by: Spy 21
Wow 3 pages and no one has yet to mention that between the reduction in SP given to new characters and the removal of learning skills, new players trained at 2x normal speed for the first 1.2 mil SP. (wasn't that long ago)

Didn't break the game... no one suffered...oldsters didn't ragequit en mass... and, it was newbie friendly.



The reason CCP took out the double training time was because they found out that new players, with the new attribute system and the double training time, could train up to use a Drake, its missile systems, and have lvl 4 support skills in less than 2 weeks. They felt this was too much so they took out the training multiplier.

PaulTheConvoluted
Posted - 2011.08.05 07:34:00 - [82]
 

Originally by: ShahFluffers
They felt this was too much so they took out the training multiplier.
Oh my, god forbid new players having a fighting chance, or even a bit of fun, can't have that...

Having to wait, and wait, and wait until you can do pretty much anything gets old, especially if you're new to the game.

Vet: Hé friend, come play Eve with me, in Eve you can do X, Y, Z ...
New player: Oh, sounds cool!
New Player tries X: Can't, have to train for ages
New Player tries Y: Can't, have to train for a while
New Player tries Z: Can't, have to train 3 days to be able to board the ship and fit some modules and still have to warp out every 30 seconds.
New player: Oh boy, I can mine 34 m3/minute or do level 1 courier missions, joy joy

Alex Sinai
Mining And Probing Specialists
Posted - 2011.08.05 10:05:00 - [83]
 

No guys CCP removed that new players multiplier so that some amebas can advocate for SP being sold to them and CCP will gladly do so "in response do wide demand" with help of their brand new NoX MT shop.

How stupid you can be people?
You want more SP? Demand return of multiplier not SP for sale.
Once they start selling something via their MT shop it will not stop and you people will leave the game not that much time after P2W will be fully in place complaining but not understanding that it is you who brought it on yourselves.

And why wont you go play instant grat games instead of waiting for SPs? What a lovely care for new players. How worrisome. How handsome for you to argue for SP for poor newbies. I am a new player and I DONT want any SP for sale.

Grey Stormshadow
Starwreck Industries
Posted - 2011.08.05 11:10:00 - [84]
 

Not supported.

If you want to use the unfair advantage you already have, buy plenty of plex with real money and head to character basaar. You can get well trained character on day one.

Those who earn the isk in game to do the same, may spend years to earn enough to do the same.

Introducing more similiar features to AUR shop, would only make things worse. We do not want game changing items in NeX. Take my word on that.

CanIPost Please
Posted - 2011.08.05 12:59:00 - [85]
 

Originally by: Alex Sinai
No guys CCP removed that new players multiplier so that some amebas can advocate for SP being sold to them and CCP will gladly do so "in response do wide demand" with help of their brand new NoX MT shop.


Agreed, and because I have such disdain for the EVE player base, but am grateful that CCP made such a wonderful game, and because I like to argue, and because your reasoning for opposing skillpoints for money is so flawed, here I am doing exactly what they want.
You're poor, huh?

Originally by: Grey Stormshadow
If you want to use the unfair advantage . . .


Money is an "unfair" advantage? It sounds like you just don't like the fact that some people have lots of money and want to use the game of EVE Online to try to get back at them . . . which is kind of sad and pathetic. (no offense)

Originally by: Grey Stormshadow
Those who earn the isk in game to do the same, may spend years to earn enough to do the same.


If they're stupid it takes them years. Here's what you do: buy a year's subscription and play for a year without spending too much ISK on dumb ****, then, buy a higher skillpoint character with the billions of ISK you have. See how simple that was? It's not like it'll take you that long to get a good character, though. You should have billions in just a few months if you're halfway competent.

As for "earning" the ISK . . . GTFOH . . . it's a video game. This isn't a Chinese sweat shop. You aren't gonna be starved or beaten if you don't make 20 Rifters an hour. You need to get out more.

Kali Omega
Immortalis Inc.
Posted - 2011.08.05 14:04:00 - [86]
 

Wait wait Canipost please did you just support buying a toon from the bazar in that last statement or am I just that groggy from waking up?

Alex Sinai
Mining And Probing Specialists
Posted - 2011.08.05 14:05:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: CanIPost Please
Originally by: Alex Sinai
No guys CCP removed that new players multiplier so that some amebas can advocate for SP being sold to them and CCP will gladly do so "in response do wide demand" with help of their brand new NoX MT shop.


Agreed, and because I have such disdain for the EVE player base, but am grateful that CCP made such a wonderful game, and because I like to argue, and because your reasoning for opposing skillpoints for money is so flawed, here I am doing exactly what they want.
You're poor, huh?

Originally by: Grey Stormshadow
If you want to use the unfair advantage . . .


Money is an "unfair" advantage? It sounds like you just don't like the fact that some people have lots of money and want to use the game of EVE Online to try to get back at them . . . which is kind of sad and pathetic. (no offense)

Originally by: Grey Stormshadow
Those who earn the isk in game to do the same, may spend years to earn enough to do the same.


If they're stupid it takes them years. Here's what you do: buy a year's subscription and play for a year without spending too much ISK on dumb ****, then, buy a higher skillpoint character with the billions of ISK you have. See how simple that was? It's not like it'll take you that long to get a good character, though. You should have billions in just a few months if you're halfway competent.

As for "earning" the ISK . . . GTFOH . . . it's a video game. This isn't a Chinese sweat shop. You aren't gonna be starved or beaten if you don't make 20 Rifters an hour. You need to get out more.



Laughable arrogant post.
Not worth to comment it.

PaulTheConvoluted
Posted - 2011.08.05 14:22:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: Kali Omega
Wait wait Canipost please did you just support buying a toon from the bazar in that last statement or am I just that groggy from waking up?
Most of the ppl against purchasable SP seem to be in favor of the Bazaar (no, I don't have statistics, that's the general idea I got from reading this thread and a few like it), so what is the difference between buying a few PLEXs, convert them to ISK and then going to the Bazaar?

Buying SP instead of characters is a lot more granular, but it amounts to (roughly) the same thing: You pay money, you get skillpoints. If I wanted to, I can create and pay for 10 characters, skill them up, then sell them at the bazaar: Bam, 10* X million SP extra in game, without anyone at the controls doing anything with the characters. The mechanism is already there, so what's the problem?

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.08.05 14:37:00 - [89]
 

Originally by: PaulTheConvoluted
Originally by: Kali Omega
Wait wait Canipost please did you just support buying a toon from the bazar in that last statement or am I just that groggy from waking up?
Most of the ppl against purchasable SP seem to be in favor of the Bazaar (no, I don't have statistics, that's the general idea I got from reading this thread and a few like it), so what is the difference between buying a few PLEXs, convert them to ISK and then going to the Bazaar?

Buying SP instead of characters is a lot more granular, but it amounts to (roughly) the same thing: You pay money, you get skillpoints. If I wanted to, I can create and pay for 10 characters, skill them up, then sell them at the bazaar: Bam, 10* X million SP extra in game, without anyone at the controls doing anything with the characters. The mechanism is already there, so what's the problem?


Why do governments tax people? I hate being taxed, the government should just print more money instead. What's the difference?

Alex Sinai
Mining And Probing Specialists
Posted - 2011.08.05 14:49:00 - [90]
 

Why wont you go to play instant gratification game instead of making your proposals of changing game rules?
What's the difference if you play EVE or WoW?

Same goes to your tax comparison. It's not applicable to this discussion.


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