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blankseplocked [Proposal] EVE needs MT for skill points to survive.
 
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The Hardman
Amarr
Uncle Fester's Olde Tyme Barbershoppe
Posted - 2011.07.21 16:14:00 - [1]
 

Some of the reason why fewer people are joining EVE is because they feel that they can't catch up on skillpoints to those of us who have been in EVE for years.

I know this is the case, I have had people who joined and then left because of this.

It is a serious issue. It is likely a real reason why we have less people joining EVE now.

So there should be MT to allow people to speed up skill acquisition on their characters. Maybe even give them the Accelerator. Limit it to 'new accounts' (ones less than 1 year old).

Some argue that people can already get high skill point characters if they buy them on the character market. Well, I don't care about the character market. That isn't part of the game, it doesn't add anything to EVE, it detracts. Additionally, a lot of people are attached to their 'main'. So not allowing increased skilling speed for new accounts directly harms new players joining EVE (while does nothing for veterans, who already have a main and can just purchase on the character market a high SP alt).

So please CSM, introduce to CCP that there should be increased training speed in the MT store.

souhyeahright
Posted - 2011.07.21 18:24:00 - [2]
 

Counter-proposal: drink bleach.

Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.07.21 18:25:00 - [3]
 

No.

Mag's
the united
Negative Ten.
Posted - 2011.07.21 18:30:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: souhyeahright
Counter-proposal: drink bleach.
I laughed out loud, was that bad? Laughing

OP, you idea is based on the false assumption regarding catching up.

Not supported.

Esan Vartesa
East Khanid Trading
Khanid Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.21 18:32:00 - [5]
 

I know you're just trolling, but for good measure:

Eve is a game based entirely on progression. SP, ISK, relationships, etc. All things you build up over time.

It is right and proper that new players forever lag behind veteran players in several ways. Every measure taken against this concept is a denial of the very reason people play Eve.

Lykouleon
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.07.21 18:35:00 - [6]
 

Biomass your characters and never come back.

Sarrgon
Caldari
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.07.21 21:49:00 - [7]
 

I agree in part with the OP. I know a lot also that never started up Eve cause of the SP gap. Got a lot of other MMO's that have double XP ideas in place to help out with just that. Vets still will be vets, can't buy real experience in how to play the games, items you have gathered thoughout the years etc.

But I think it should be geared more towards middle of the run players. Ones that know what they are doing and just waiting for skills to finish so they can get into that new shinny ship or just to be able to use the one they got better. Someone playing the game for a few months into a carrier or such is just crazy. But as more and more vets leave the game, is the ones that have been playing only a few years that will be the future of Eve.



Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.07.21 21:59:00 - [8]
 

Once upon a time, I joined the game and flew with players who had 10x my SP. I thought "I'll never catch up..." then I focused on attaining specific goals for myself "fly this ship" "use the T2 version of that" "max that skill" and suddenly I wasn't worried about it. Now, I hear people say "I'll never catch up to you" and I chuckle a little, then help them set goals for themselves like a good corpmate/alliancemate/friend.

Sarrgon
Caldari
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.07.21 22:10:00 - [9]
 

The old "specialize" your training arguement again. Sure at first it is very good to specialize your training to even be somewhat useful in any corp / alliance. But one thing the bitter vets always will have is non specialize training, for how many ships they can fly, fit them all well and be very useful in any corp / alliance.

I've been ridiculed in prior corps / alliances for the lack of ships I can fly and how I can fit them. A lot of others have to and to be frank, a lot are tired of it and I know some that have quit the game over it cause of the SP gap. Or others that will never start playing eve cause of it. So a few bitter vets will quit if CCP ever does something like this, but would probably get more new players and retain others out of it. I say good, and wave to the bitter vets as they leave. Very Happy

The Hardman
Amarr
Uncle Fester's Olde Tyme Barbershoppe
Posted - 2011.07.22 00:30:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Bagehi
Once upon a time, I joined the game and flew with players who had 10x my SP. I thought "I'll never catch up..." then I focused on attaining specific goals for myself "fly this ship" "use the T2 version of that" "max that skill" and suddenly I wasn't worried about it. Now, I hear people say "I'll never catch up to you" and I chuckle a little, then help them set goals for themselves like a good corpmate/alliancemate/friend.



The issue is that most stay for a week or two and never convert from the trial account and never stick around long enough to start being involved.

Additionally, skills plays a huge role for the semi-solo highsec carebear which a lot of players are. These are important people for making the economy work/etc, even if they don't do much with the interesting parts of the game. And it is from these that some of the itnreesting people come.

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.22 00:48:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Ranka Mei on 22/07/2011 00:50:02

You seem to be thinking along my lines:

Neural remaps for PLEX

And the rationale is sound. So, yes, supported.

EDIT: And expounding a bit on the rationale in full: the gist of it.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.22 02:11:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Bagehi
Once upon a time, I joined the game and flew with players who had 10x my SP. I thought "I'll never catch up..." then I focused on attaining specific goals for myself "fly this ship" "use the T2 version of that" "max that skill" and suddenly I wasn't worried about it. Now, I hear people say "I'll never catch up to you" and I chuckle a little, then help them set goals for themselves like a good corpmate/alliancemate/friend.



Nah, you see you set goals, planned ahead, thought long term (long term in Eve being mere months, not years). This is beyond people like the OP. Because they fail at Eve they insist on everyone being able to cheat.

Nimrod Nemesis
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2011.07.22 03:02:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: souhyeahright
Counter-proposal: drink bleach.


reported for sticky

Cendric De'Credsiu
Posted - 2011.07.22 03:33:00 - [14]
 

We already have the option to buy skill points basically by buying a higher trained character.

If anything its not the skill point time that drives new players from the game. Its griefing and the lack of options when your first starting out.

We need instead of speeding up the skill training or allowing folks to buy skill points better tutorials for the new players that help them learn the different aspects of the game. Including remapping, overview settings, and pvp. Better warnings in the tutorials on how to avoid or minimize getting griefed ect, and most importantly more things for the new players to get involved in.

More missions like the sisters of eve epic arc, more dynamic missions that help teach and guide new players on skill plans and help them find what they enjoy in the game. More things that allow the new players to go out with lets say an npc fleet to get used to fleet mechanics ect.

Rather then try to fix something by breaking something else lets improve the game and fix it at the same time. All the above adds to the game, will help improve the new players experience and actually get them going on something they enjoy and hopefully keep them in the game.

Rawbone
Gallente
S3MINAL FLUID
Imperial 0rder
Posted - 2011.07.22 03:53:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: souhyeahright
Counter-proposal: drink bleach.


ROFL
I shot coffee out of my nose there.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.22 04:47:00 - [16]
 

Uh, please OP, do us all a favor and search the forum and read the related topics before you start YASPC thread.

I hate repeating myself, so I'm not going to say again all the reasons why the proponents of this line of reasoning is wrong, illogical, amounting to 'cheatcode' console gamer logic. Search and read the other threads on this topic to read the arguments that have already been said.

Instead, I will add my obligatory 1 comment for this YASPC. The SP system in EVE works because it keeps the game fun for everyone; those who only play casually are not at a severe disadvantage to those who are hardcore live in parents basement gamers who can play 23/7. In other games those who hack more sheep or spend more time training get better faster. This is fine for those 'other mmos'. Not for EVE. Eve has lasted 8+ years because of its unique -never reach a level max/cap- way of handling XP in the SP system.

Those new players that EVE loses because they can't get with this program, or learn to have fun without 'maxxing out skills' first should go away and play something else**, we really don't want you here. New Eden would be just fine without you.


*Yet Another SkillPoint Cheat
**I hear Star Wars Old Republic is out!!Wink

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.07.22 05:20:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Lykouleon
Biomass your characters and never come back.

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.22 12:04:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: J Kunjeh on 22/07/2011 12:06:15
Edited by: J Kunjeh on 22/07/2011 12:05:23
As much as I never thought I'd feel this way about this subject, I'm kind of on the fence about it lately. The OP does have a valid point. My first break from Eve was in part due to this very thing...I felt I could never catch up with those who started earlier.

I oppose the idea that it should be no big deal to speed up your training, but what if there were consequences? What if there was a booster that would do it for a short period of time, but had the possibility to bring severe consequences of some sort (maybe there could be a chance based side-effect that by taking it you would lose a skill level or two on a random skill instead of it working as intended)? Or maybe you could only use such a booster once or twice a year, to dire consequences of some kind if you tried more often?

I feel that offering a slight boost to skill training speed via methods like the above might not be as game breaking as some think. And I feel it would at least offer a glimmer of hope that even though you've not been playing 8 years, you're not entirely locked out of the race to the top (though it will cost you a lot of AUR and some risk to be able to take advantage of this).

Just some crazy thoughts...

Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.07.22 12:06:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: J Kunjeh
Edited by: J Kunjeh on 22/07/2011 12:05:23
As much as I never thought I'd feel this way about this subject, I'm kind of on the fence about it lately. The OP does have a valid point. My first break from Eve was in part due to this very thing...I felt I could never catch up with those who started earlier.


But the problem wasn't that you couldn't catch up, it was your mistaken perception that there was an issue in the first place.

J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.22 12:07:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: J Kunjeh on 22/07/2011 12:07:57
Originally by: Malcanis
Originally by: J Kunjeh

As much as I never thought I'd feel this way about this subject, I'm kind of on the fence about it lately. The OP does have a valid point. My first break from Eve was in part due to this very thing...I felt I could never catch up with those who started earlier.


But the problem wasn't that you couldn't catch up, it was your mistaken perception that there was an issue in the first place.


I never thought that it was a deal breaker...as I said, it was only a part of why I took a break. Still, I feel that the skill system is genius, but not perfect, primarily because of this issue.

De'Veldrin
Minmatar
Norse'Storm Battle Group
Intrepid Crossing
Posted - 2011.07.22 13:53:00 - [21]
 

Ok, for all those who are worried about "catching up" answer me this question:

How many skill points does it require to be an ace assault frigate pilot with max weapon, tackle and tank skills?

I'll give you a hint:
Exactly the same number as anyone else with the same skills, regardless of when they started playing.

And that is the beauty of the Eve skill system. You CAN catch up, just not in the way you're thinking about it. You view the total number of skill points like it's some kind of magical talisman, when, in relaity, at any given time, 75 - 80% of that number is completely useless.

Consider this:
If I'm flying an Amarrian freighter,
the 8 million skill points I have in gunnery
the 5 million in missiles
the million or so in T3 subsystems
the millions in caldari and minmatar, not to mention capital ships
the millions in drones

all of those are

COMPLETELY
TOTALLY
UTTERLY
USELESS.

Just like everyone else.

More skill points give your character more options and that's all.

The Hardman
Amarr
Uncle Fester's Olde Tyme Barbershoppe
Posted - 2011.07.22 16:05:00 - [22]
 

It is definitely perception. And it is some reality. For a new player to have the same opportunities as me, they would have to buy a ton of accounts and wait months or would have to buy a new character.

And I am not suggesting that people can 'buy' a ton of SP. Just that they can 'accelerate' it for the first year. I am not threatening your 100m SP characters.

Whether that is by the accelerator (which already exists for new characters) or by remaps.

Note that it has nothing to do with me. I have multiple characters over 40m SP and have run out of things interesting to train on a number of characters.

I would have no intention of using this myself. It would just be to help new players.

Cendric De'Credsiu
Posted - 2011.07.22 18:21:00 - [23]
 

The issue is not a matter of skill points, its a matter of having things for new players to do while they wait for there skills to train that makes the game fun and exciting for them. Already a new player gets two remaps when they are first starting out and this helps speed there training up a lot already. Specialize in something remap to match it to be useful, then remap and plan a training plan for the next year.

What you ask for is already in place for new players with that two remaps a year. Secondly speeding it up anymore will actually hurt the game far more then it would help. When you start making it easier what happens is you get a bunch of insta gratification players. Slowly but surly they take over the game and it changes from being something challenging to do, to super easy with no actual work or player skill to accomplish anything. After that the game dies as folks get bored with it and leave. Much like a few other MMO's that have died out.

Zeronic
Gallente
Zero Core Labs
Posted - 2011.07.22 18:41:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: Cendric De'Credsiu
The issue is not a matter of skill points, its a matter of having things for new players to do while they wait for there skills to train that makes the game fun and exciting for them. Already a new player gets two remaps when they are first starting out and this helps speed there training up a lot already. Specialize in something remap to match it to be useful, then remap and plan a training plan for the next year.

What you ask for is already in place for new players with that two remaps a year. Secondly speeding it up anymore will actually hurt the game far more then it would help. When you start making it easier what happens is you get a bunch of insta gratification players. Slowly but surly they take over the game and it changes from being something challenging to do, to super easy with no actual work or player skill to accomplish anything. After that the game dies as folks get bored with it and leave. Much like a few other MMO's that have died out.


./Agree ./Signed ./Supported. It's up to the Eve Community to stop all things that will break/ruin the sand box and if you don't like it "Here is the door".


Reaver Glitterstim
Legio Geminatus
Posted - 2011.07.23 02:04:00 - [25]
 

I see your point, OP, but allowing any sort of increased training speed for "new people" would ultimately be abused more than it was actually used. Furthermore, anyone who quits EVE because they don't have enough SP really never took the time to understand this game anyway. It is not at all difficult for a new player to play with the big boys pretty quickly in this game, in fact that is one way in which EVE contrasts from almost every other MMO out there (that I've heard of, anyway). In a lot of games, you have to play all the way to the end-game just to be viable to participate in end-game stuff. In EVE, training is not linear, but rather branched out. You can train one area pretty well in anywhere from a week to a couple years, depending on the area of focus. And when you're done with that (or before you're done), you can branch out and work toward something else.

I think what we should be doing is making sure new pilots are aware of what they can do to join in playing with the veteran community. They need to understand that battleships are not ultimately better than frigates, or that running level 4 missions and/or mining veldspar are not the primary sources of income in this game. Once people get past those and other misconceptions like those, they will be much more ready and able to enjoy this great game.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.23 10:07:00 - [26]
 

Indeed. As I've stated in the other irritating SP for MT threads, one of the great things about Eve is you can get 90% as good as the vets in a particular skill, in only 10% of the time it took them to max it out.

In fact most players I know rarely get tier two and higher skills above level four (at least till they have every other faster training skill they want), so they have more time to branch out, rather than spend ages getting that final 10% improvement.

I've only has this particular character for 14 months, yet I can fly every race's BCers, Minmatar BS (I fly the Typhoon Fleet Issue which is the most SP dependent T1 BS there is - it requires three weapon systems - drones, projectiles and missiles, and it has a damn tight fit), every race's weapons and EWar are at T1 or better, I have T2 scout drones (and the rest at T1), almost every mod my BS uses at T2, I fly T2 mining exhumers and can fit all highsec T2 crystals, Gallente transports and freighters, covert ops cloak, run five R&D agents at once, 10 R&D jobs at once, can have 129 open market orders, social skills are all at IV, exploration skills are good enough I can run any site out there, I can fit +4 implants, fly a Noctis at level IV, and there's stuff I'm sure I'm forgetting, as well as stuff I tried but didn't get into.

This guy is my high/lowsec/WH generalist. OTOH I have some specialist toons that have become extremely good at one job in a fraction of the time it took Toovhon to become a highsec jack of all trades.

Yes you'll never be able to rush your way to flying cap ships in just a couple months. But you can get into T2 frigates and cruisers and be 90% as good as vets in that time. That's leaving aside that T1 ships hardly become useless even at high levels. But back on point - with T2 frigates and cruisers you've heaps of options in 0.0 warfare, and if a mere two months is too long to wait, well - Eve is definitely not the game for you.

Tuggboat
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.23 11:42:00 - [27]
 

Edited by: Tuggboat on 23/07/2011 11:44:21
If you want new players to stay, Put an alt in the Help channels, They need UI help, a friend, an invitation to a corp and usually a friendly ultimatum that they must subscribe to be brought on. Its not much more complicated than this. Specialization is important in the beginning, Early introduction to fleets and pvp even at the frigate level. Fleets and ewar are force multipliers that can balance skill points. Detract from greed PVE isolation with team fleet activities that pay more or are more fun.

I think I will use this argument with them if it comes up

Quote:
Consider this: If I'm flying an Amarrian freighter, the 8 million skill points I have in gunnery the 5 million in missiles the million or so in T3 subsystems the millions in caldari and minmatar, not to mention capital ships the millions in drones all of those are COMPLETELY TOTALLY UTTERLY USELESS.


Thanks D, very simple!

Vodwyn
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.23 12:39:00 - [28]
 

You can already buy skillpoints here

The people that are too stupid to realize the character bazaar is there to facilitate quicker sps aren't going to do well in eve and quit anyways.

The Hardman
Amarr
Uncle Fester's Olde Tyme Barbershoppe
Posted - 2011.07.23 12:43:00 - [29]
 

Already addressed.

People are tied to their mains. This is true for everyone. It isn't the number of skill points, it is (for many) who you identify with to begin with.

The character bazaar is not some part of the game or something we should defend.

And yes, I know and you know that in just 3-4 months the player can have a useful number of skill points for all sorts of things.

But what matters is the players perception at 1-4 weeks.

And face it, some players want their mains to be the ones doing things.

You all are just as bad as those who said that removing learning would kill EVE.

Cendric De'Credsiu
Posted - 2011.07.23 15:58:00 - [30]
 

Its not the skill points that are the issue though man, its the fact that most new players when they try the game have no clue what to do. When I started out, I had no clue about focusing my skill training, or how to remap my stats properly.

I had a few friends that I met that actually started helping me out and including me in doing things with them. That made the game fun. We as a community need to make the new player experience better by helping them and including them in activities. The game needs to improve on the new player experience by adding things to help them out and provide enjoyment for them while they train as well.

Mainly its on the community not the game mechanics that will keep or drive players away from the game, and we need to step up to the plate and actively try to keep these players by showing them what is out there in the game and help them with setting up training ques for what they want to do.


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