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Reppyk
The Black Shell
Posted - 2011.07.20 13:13:00 - [1]
 

Hi EVE o7
This thread has nothing to do with all the "buff hybrids !" topics.
Currently 2 races (Amarr and Caldari) have a secondary weapon that is only used on a few ships.

Khanids aka "the black missile boats" : Inquisitor (fregate T1), Vengeance (AS T2), Anathema (Covert, split weapon system), Purifier (SB), Malediction (Inty), Heretic (dictor), Sacrilege (HAS), Curse (Force Recon, but not really a missile boat), Legion (with the assault optimization sub), Damnation (fleet command ship).

Caldari gunboats : Ibis (rookie), Merlin (fregate T1, split weapon system), Cormorant (destroyer), Moa (cruiser T1), Eagle (HAS), Ferox (Battlecruiser), Vulture (fleet command ship), Tengu (with the mag bassin sub), Harpy (AS), Raptor (Inty), Osprey (cruiser T1, no bonus), BlackBird (cruiser T1, no bonus), Falcon (recon, not a gunboat), Scorpion (T1 BS, no bonus), Rokh (T1/tiers 3 BS).

So what ?
Amarr missileboats : Great until you want to go BS-size, with a lack for T1 cruiser/battlecruiser. And no missile rookie ship.
Caldari : almost all the subcapital ships are available, the only missing link I see is the lack of a proper T1 freg.

Problems : Khanid high-end ships are the legion, the damnation and somewhat the sacrilege. No BS T1/T2, no dread, no titan. Absolutely no navy ships.
You want to play capital online ? You must cross-train caldari, or train lasers.
You want to play with missile pirate ships ? Good luck training gallente and caldari.

It's the same thing with caldari's (okay they have the scorp and the rokh, both ships known to be powerfull gunb--- oh wait). High-end ship ? The vulture has 5 turrets slots, the hybrid sub for the tengu is a joke.
You trained hybrid and caldari and you want to :
- have access to nice gunboats while using your caldari racial spaceship skills ? Train-cross amarr and lasers for the sanshas ships.
- Play capital online ? Train missiles or gallente.
- Want some navy ships ? Sorry, no one since the hookbill was changed.
- have access to nice gunboats while using your hybrid skills ? Train cross gallente and minmatar.

Meh. Neutral

Proposition :
Add 2 missile rookie ships (amarr and caldari).
Add at least 2 ships for the amarr selection from the list : T1 cruiser/T1 BC/T1 BS.
Add one real high end ship for the two races : Black Ops ? Dread ? A decent T3 ?
Plug the two missing pirate combinations : amarr/gallente (not sure what it should be) and minmatar/caldari (definitively hybrid ships).
Add a caldari navy gunboat (or correct the poor navy osprey). Add a navy khanid ship.

Page Starcaster
Gallente
Society of lost Souls
Posted - 2011.07.20 14:57:00 - [2]
 

Edited by: Page Starcaster on 20/07/2011 15:00:43
I don't think you understand the intended weapons focus of the races.

As I understand it, it is something like this;

Amarr- primary- Laser / secondary- missile/drones

Minmatar- Primary - Projectiles / Secondary- missiles/drones

Caldari- Primary- Missiles / Secondary- hybrids/drones

Gallente- Primary- Drones / Secondary- hybrid/missiles

Each race has most of there ships with bonuses to their primary weapon system and a couple with a bonus to a secondary weapon. I think this is why hybrid weapons suck so bad, they were not meant to be primary weapon for any race, although there are some caldari/gallente gun bouts meant to use them they are not that races specialty. you can cross train weapons and use them on any ship with the right slots, at the cost of losing the racial bonuses. Many players do this, but if you have a preferred weapon type you will find it easiest to go with a race that specializes in that weapon and find that races best ship for that weapon. for example if you like missiles, caldari do have the best missile boats. Aside from faction ships like the dram only gallente frigates can use drones, ect.

Reppyk
The Black Shell
Posted - 2011.07.20 15:12:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Reppyk on 20/07/2011 15:17:59
Originally by: Page Starcaster
Minmatar- Primary - Projectiles / Secondary- missiles/drones
No.

Originally by: Page Starcaster
Caldari- Primary- Missiles / Secondary- hybrids/drones
No.

Originally by: Page Starcaster
Gallente- Primary- Drones / Secondary- hybrid/missiles
No ! It's just a SB and a recon with a split weapon !

Originally by: Page Starcaster
I think this is why hybrid weapons suck so bad, they were not meant to be primary weapon for any race, although there are some caldari/gallente gun bouts meant to use them they are not that races specialty.
No. Hybrid weapons are the primary weapon of the gallente race, drones are only the second -but since hybrid guns have too many drawbacks, gallente drone boats are more common-.
Saying that drones are the secondary weapon of caldari ships is just so wrong. Maybe you're talking about gurista ships ? Well, why not saying lasers are the secondary weapon then, because of the sanshas ?

Originally by: Page Starcaster
Aside from faction ships like the dram only gallente frigates can use drones, ect.
Drone gallente fregs : ishkur ishkur ishkur ishkur ishkur imicus ishkur ishkur. That's not a very good point... And putting aside the dramiel/worm/comet lost me.
The arbitrator/curse/legion are drone boats too, it's not only about gallente.

Originally by: Page Starcaster
I don't think you understand the intended weapons focus of the races.
I'm pretty sure you don't. Thanks for the input anyway, but you missed my point : EVE has two lineups that were forgotten years ago.

Alexia page
Posted - 2011.07.20 15:51:00 - [4]
 

Edited by: Alexia page on 20/07/2011 16:15:07
Originally by: Reppyk
Edited by: Reppyk on 20/07/2011 15:17:59
Originally by: Page Starcaster
Minmatar- Primary - Projectiles / Secondary- missiles/drones
No.
ok scratch drones as I believe every ship above frigate/destroyer class can use drones. But the only weapons a minmatar ship receives bonuses for are projectiles and a few ships have missile bonuses. so the other two are right.

Originally by: Reppyk
Originally by: Page Starcaster
Caldari- Primary- Missiles / Secondary- hybrids/drones
No.
again, fine scratch drones, but show me a caldari ship with a weapon bonus other than missiles or hybrids?

Originally by: Reppyk
Originally by: Page Starcaster
Gallente- Primary- Drones / Secondary- hybrid/missiles
No ! It's just a SB and a recon with a split weapon !
Yeah I guess you can scratch missiles, I can't think of a gallente ship with a missile bonus other than the SB. However Gallente are absolutely meant to be the drone specialist race. they are the only race that has T1 frigates that can use drones. They have the best drone boats of any race. the faction Frigates that use drones such as the dramel require gallentine frigate skills to fly.

Originally by: Reppyk
Originally by: Page Starcaster
I think this is why hybrid weapons suck so bad, they were not meant to be primary weapon for any race, although there are some caldari/gallente gun bouts meant to use them they are not that races specialty.
No. Hybrid weapons are the primary weapon of the gallente race, drones are only the second -but since hybrid guns have too many drawbacks, gallente drone boats are more common-.
Saying that drones are the secondary weapon of caldari ships is just so wrong. Maybe you're talking about gurista ships ? Well, why not saying lasers are the secondary weapon then, because of the sanshas ?
well pirate faction ships are cross race, that is why they require skills from mutiple race backgrouds to fly. I use the dramel as an example only because that is one of my favorite ships. It is a T1 Pirate faction frigate, it requires minmatar and gallente skills to fly. ability to use drones comes from the gallente technology.

Originally by: Reppyk
Originally by: Page Starcaster
Aside from faction ships like the dram only gallente frigates can use drones, ect.
Drone gallente fregs : ishkur ishkur ishkur ishkur ishkur imicus ishkur ishkur. That's not a very good point... And putting aside the dramiel/worm/comet lost me.
the dramel is not gallente but is a pirate faction frig that requires gallentine skills to fly. All frigates with drone bays require gallentine skills, because the gallentine race SPECIALIZES IN DRONES.
Originally by: Reppyk
The arbitrator/curse/legion are drone boats too, it's not only about gallente.
I was talking about frigates not cruisers. but I understand if that was over your head. Show me a frigate that can use drones that is not gallente or pirate faction requiring gallente skills that can use drones.

Originally by: Reppyk
Originally by: Page Starcaster
I don't think you understand the intended weapons focus of the races.
I'm pretty sure you don't. Thanks for the input anyway, but you missed my point : EVE has two lineups that were forgotten years ago.
sorry dude. hybrids are not a specialty weapon for any race, they are shared between the caldari and gallente as a secondary weapon. Caldari primary focus is on missiles giving them the best missile boats. Gallentine primary focus is on drones giving them the best drone boats. neither caldari or gallente has a hybrid platform that is meant to be a focused ship. they just have average power gunboats, no superior gun boat fits focused on hybrids. You will see this is intended if you read up on the lore. Try doing some research rather than pulling facts out of your a$$.

Reppyk
The Black Shell
Posted - 2011.07.20 16:24:00 - [5]
 

Damnit, you're totally missing my point. Sad

Originally by: Alexia page
ok scratch drones as I believe every ship above frigate/destroyer class can use drones. But the only weapons a minmatar ship receives bonuses for are projectiles and a few ships have missile bonuses. so the other two are right.
The wrong part was in bold. There is no problem saying that missiles are the minmatar secondary weapon.


Originally by: Alexia page
again, fine scratch drones, but show me a caldari ship with a weapon bonus other than missiles or hybrids?
Bold.

Originally by: Alexia page
they are the only race that has T1 frigates that can use drones
You're forgetting the 3 other rookie ships, the heron, the crucifier, the magnate, the tormentor, the bantam, the griffin, the probe and the vigil. Yes I know, it hurts.

Originally by: Alexia page
They have the best drone boats of any race.
Show me a cruiser-size drone boat which can get solo kills ? Vexor/Ishtar ? Yes but they are certainly worst for this job than the Arbitrator/Curse/Pilgrim.

Originally by: Alexia page
well pirate faction ships are cross race, that is why they require skills from mutiple race backgrouds to fly. I use the dramel as an example only because that is one of my favorite ships. It is a T1 Pirate faction frigate, it requires minmatar and gallente skills to fly. ability to use drones comes from the gallente technology.
Stating the obvious. Did you read the part where I stated that in order to use pirate ships when you have khanid/caldapewpew skills, you must cross-train TWICE ? Nothing wrong with a cross-training.

Originally by: Alexia page
All frigates with drone bays require gallentine skills, because the gallentine race SPECIALIZES IN DRONES. ]I was talking about frigates not cruisers. but I understand if that was over your head. Show me a frigate that can use drones that is not gallente or pirate faction requiring gallente skills that can use drones.
^ see the list.

Originally by: Alexia page
sorry dude. hybrids are not a specialty weapon for any race, they are shared between the caldari and gallente as a secondary weapon. Caldari primary focus is on missiles giving them the best missile boats. Gallentine primary focus is on drones giving them the best drone boats. neither caldari or gallente has a hybrid platform that is meant to be a focused ship. they just have average power gunboats, no superior gun boat fits focused on hybrids. You will see this is intended if you read up on the lore. Try doing some research rather than pulling facts out of your a$$.
Gallente drone boats = ishkur vexor ishtar myrmi dominix sin (thanatos) (nyx).
Gallente hybrid boats = almost everything else.

My bottom is fine, thanks you. Now, about the subject ?

Lady Spank
Amarr
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2011.07.20 16:53:00 - [6]
 

lol

ITTigerClawIK
Amarr
Galactic Rangers
Galactic-Rangers
Posted - 2011.07.20 17:42:00 - [7]
 

Khanid Apoc anyone? 8 launchers with torpedo DMG, armour resist + torpedo ROF and Cap recharge bonuses ????

i know folks dont like the idea of that but i think it would be totaly ****ing awesome :-P

Reppyk
The Black Shell
Posted - 2011.07.20 17:48:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: ITTigerClawIK
Khanid Apoc anyone? 8 launchers with torpedo DMG, armour resist + torpedo ROF and Cap recharge bonuses ????

i know folks dont like the idea of that but i think it would be totaly ****ing awesome :-P
The dps of that thing would be a bit too much. Just add some range missile rigs and you got your minidread. The raven has only 6 launchers and the ROF bonus, and it's already one of the best BS to shoot at POSes.

Page Starcaster
Gallente
Society of lost Souls
Posted - 2011.07.20 19:07:00 - [9]
 

I guess you missed my point as much as I missed yours. I'm not saying there is no need for an update. But if you read the lore, gallente weapons development is drone focused. Drones are meant to be the gallente specialized weapon. I always thought that they should split gallente and caldari focus one specialize in blasters and the other in rails but that doesn't follow the lore.

I agree that hybrid turrets do need some major love. But I do not agree that gallente should be given a missile boat that can out perform the comparable caldari since caldari are, according to lore, supposed to be the missile specialists.

There is supposed to be a complete revamp of all ships for balance but only one or two at a time per update, and with a focus on making less popular ships more appealing.

Sorry for posting with the wrong toon last time. Alexia is me.

If you want to ask for a new gallente ship you need to keep it in line with the lore or it will never be considered.

Sinikka Huiputti
Posted - 2011.07.20 21:08:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Page Starcaster
lore


it always helps if you undock to go see yourself instead of sitting in station and watching holoreels. it's called getting field experience.


Page Starcaster
Gallente
Society of lost Souls
Posted - 2011.07.20 21:12:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Sinikka Huiputti
Originally by: Page Starcaster
lore


it always helps if you undock to go see yourself instead of sitting in station and watching holoreels. it's called getting field experience.




Very true, But CCP developers will never do anything that goes against the lore. So no point in even asking.

Eugene Bugblatter
Posted - 2011.07.21 05:33:00 - [12]
 

I support the idea of a Khanid BS with missiles, in the very least. It does make sense since the Khanid ships are missile boats, as pointed out by the OP. Suggesting it be a Khanid Navy Apoc with 8 torps is disingenuous in the least (besides, thats called a Golem); the OP as far as I'm aware is saying if CCP releases more ship variations in this class, the Amarr BS variation would preferably be a missile boat.

The difficulty is in providing a solution that is more than just a phallic Raven and doesn't outmatch the CNR or Golem. Eg,
Khanid BS
8 high Slots: 5 launchers, 5 turret (aka minimum 2 Utility)
5 Mids
6 Lows
5% bonus to cruise/torp missile damage, 5% capacitor recharge bonus

This would create essentially a BS with comparable DPS to a Raven (given the ability to jam more BCU's in the lows) and the ability to either MWD around (cap bonus) or fit an effective armour tank. Just an idea.

Reppyk
The Black Shell
Posted - 2011.07.21 14:28:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Page Starcaster
But I do not agree that gallente should be given a missile boat that can out perform the comparable caldari since caldari are, according to lore, supposed to be the missile specialists.

[...]

If you want to ask for a new gallente ship you need to keep it in line with the lore or it will never be considered.
I never talk about gallente ships. Shocked It's about amarr&caldari !
A gallente missile boat is a silly idea.

Originally by: Eugene Bugblatter
I support the idea of a Khanid BS with missiles, in the very least.
Ah, thanks.
I'm looking for inputs from khanid/pewpewcaldari pilots, I know they are rare and hunted and mocked, but maybe we could cry a bit together :)

Tommy Blue
Black Lance
Posted - 2011.07.21 16:24:00 - [14]
 

Only gallente firgs can use drones?

Don't forget THE HERON.

Also, missiles are a secondary for gallente. If some of its ships use a different type of weapon besdes the primary, it becomes secondary.
--> tristan, celestis, nemesis, lachesis

Reppyk
The Black Shell
Posted - 2011.07.21 17:02:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Tommy Blue
Only gallente firgs can use drones?

Don't forget THE HERON.

Also, missiles are a secondary for gallente. If some of its ships use a different type of weapon besdes the primary, it becomes secondary.
--> tristan, celestis, nemesis, lachesis
Me too, I like to post in a thread without reading it. Rolling Eyes

Jacob Stov
Posted - 2011.07.21 19:14:00 - [16]
 

Well, I don't think CCP will introduce any new ships. Best shot for a Khanid Battleship could be to turn the Redeemer into a Khanid ship.
Et voila, Khanid BB, without the danger to create an overpowered beast like an 8-torp double damage bonus Abbadon.

As for black Amarr hulls with hybrid guns. There are the EoM ships. IIRC they are shield tanked, too. There you have your Amarr/Caldari crossbreed with hybrid bonus. (But why would you want a crappy hybrid ship, if you can get a tachyon boat with marauder layout, shield tank and godly tracking bonus ?)

But one thing would be nice: removal of the crappy split weapons on merlin. Four turrets pls. Oh yeah, and Caldari turret dread would be great, too. (for whatever they are good in this day and age)

Reppyk
The Black Shell
Posted - 2011.07.21 20:48:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Jacob Stov
Well, I don't think CCP will introduce any new ships.
Oh, they will not. They still must do these T3 "freg/bs/whatever" and the tornado. And patch the game. And balancing.

It's not that I made this thread to discuss what could be these new ships. I just want to be heard, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.
I'm a caldari hybrid pilot, I fly my ferox and my rokh with T2 mods, I could use a tengu or an eagle but... no sorry. The only thing left for me is to skill up to the vulture, and large railgun specialization lvl5. With only 7 months of SP. Neutral

Originally by: Jacob Stov
There are the EoM ships. IIRC they are shield tanked, too. There you have your Amarr/Caldari crossbreed with hybrid bonus. (But why would you want a crappy hybrid ship, if you can get a tachyon boat with marauder layout, shield tank and godly tracking bonus ?)
Nice catch. :p
CCP would say : "but you must skill for it and build'em ! C'mon kid look at these ! it's P I R A T E ships with LONG RANGE ! C'mon it's awesome ! YARRRR!!"
I want one ! Shocked

Originally by: Jacob Stov
But one thing would be nice: removal of the crappy split weapons on merlin. Four turrets pls. Oh yeah, and Caldari turret dread would be great, too. (for whatever they are good in this day and age)
Small hybrids (at least the blasters) are still usable. Basically it's a T1 harpy without the +5% dps but +5% shield, it would become the new rifter.
But +1 turret slot for the merlin... Wow, I really would love that.

And a phoenix with more turret slots is making me dizzy EmbarassedEmbarassedEmbarassed

Jacob Stov
Posted - 2011.07.22 16:06:00 - [18]
 

Well, I can understand your pain. My first ever battleship was a Rokh. And I used to love Harpy and Vulture. I've got max skills (ah well, minus drone skills) with all of them. Siege warfare spec 5 and all that useless crap.
Truth is I get better results flying Minmatar or Amarr ships. Now of course I would kill for a 7-turret Ferox and Vulture, or an Ishukone (or better yet Mordus') Scorp. (boxy-ship-with-gray-camo-fetish)
The Mordus Scorp is my wet dream. Scorpion + gray camo + marauder layout + hybrid damage bonus + resistance bonus and enough midslots for full tackle. Now of course that won't ever happen... ugh
Would even skill up frog ships for that. Razz


Reppyk
The Black Shell
Posted - 2011.07.22 16:24:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: Jacob Stov
Well, I can understand your pain. My first ever battleship was a Rokh. And I used to love Harpy and Vulture. I've got max skills (ah well, minus drone skills) with all of them. Siege warfare spec 5 and all that useless crap.
Truth is I get better results flying Minmatar or Amarr ships. Now of course I would kill for a 7-turret Ferox and Vulture, or an Ishukone (or better yet Mordus') Scorp. (boxy-ship-with-gray-camo-fetish)
The Mordus Scorp is my wet dream. Scorpion + gray camo + marauder layout + hybrid damage bonus + resistance bonus and enough midslots for full tackle. Now of course that won't ever happen... ugh
Would even skill up frog ships for that. Razz


Would you marry me ? :3

The scorpion hull could indeed be an amazing turretboat, like the NPC gurista scorpion. Sadly they made the Navy scorp a navy raven-bis. Crying or Very sad

Mordu Rokh -now we're talking-.

Reaver Glitterstim
Legio Geminatus
Posted - 2011.07.31 01:07:00 - [20]
 

Reppyk, I wouldn't listen to Page too much. She obviously isn't listening to you.

I'm not sure what you're trying to say about faction ships (and I'm too noobish to be expected to), but I'll agree with you it's pretty clear hybrids are a main weapon at least among tech 1 Gallente and Caldari ships. Caldari seem to be about evenly balanced between hybrids and missiles, with ALL (read, 100.0000000%) damage ships focused on EITHER missiles OR hybrids, NEVER on both together. This doesn't mean a missile focused ship doesn't have a utility high it can't fill with a hybrid, and vice versa, but nobody can reasonably expect the other types of weapons to get much love on the thing. The closest thing to a compromise between missiles and hybrids is a merlin, and as far as I can tell it only has half and half to reduce its dps because it tanks so well. The funny thing is that it does a lot better with missiles even though it has a hybrid weapon bonus. When I was a noob I was killing stuff with my rockets in one, used the other highs for non-weapons cause I never scored any hits with hybrids.

And hybrids are very clearly the main weapon Gallente have. Their ships generally have larger drone bays than other race ships, but only a handful actually have drone bonuses. Yet the increased drone bay doesn't even come close to making hybrids work on those ships.

Supported because you seem to know what you're talking about.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.31 04:02:00 - [21]
 

I'm just talking from a general standpoint (with focus on balance and lore) so please don't jump all over me :)

Question:

Quote:
Plug the two missing pirate combinations : amarr/gallente (not sure what it should be) and minmatar/caldari (definitively hybrid ships).


What pirate faction would that be? I always thought skill combos for the pirate where lore based, not arbitrary decisions just to make the game mechanics symmetrical.

Guristas operate in G/C space
Angels are influenced by M/G due to their tight alliance with each other
Bloods span A/M territory
and Sansha is a Caldarian, but was banished to Amarr fringes.

How would they be able to fill the missing combos, and indeed, why should they?, (besides making some people with some SP invested in certain races SC skill happy.)

Quote:

Add a navy khanid ship.



Well, Khanids are a weird oddity. They aren't really a separate faction entirely, more like the Thukker Tribe but playable. So their ships are really Amarrian, and as such need to be play balanced in the larger Amarrian scale. I don't think it would be fair to give Amarr another navy ship without giving every other race one too.


Utsen Dari
Posted - 2011.07.31 15:20:00 - [22]
 

Amarr/ gallente pirate faction is Equilibrium of Mankind.

They all use Amarr hulls with railguns mounted.


Reppyk
The Black Shell
Posted - 2011.08.02 15:46:00 - [23]
 

Edited by: Reppyk on 02/08/2011 15:46:16
Rise from the dead little thread, there is hope !

http://www.evenews24.com/2011/07/30/eve-vegas-ccp-keynote/

Quote:
Supercaps and caps are being rebalanced. Logistics tweak. Dramiel change. (Four or five changes like this). GALLENTE WEAPON REBALANCE FOR NEXT SUMMER. “Supercaps were the most urgent but Gallente weapons are close behind.”


Do not forget the Merlin/Cormorant/Ferox/Rokh !

I even made one picture :
It's a rokh !

Exclamation UP Exclamation UP Exclamation

Swynet
State War Academy
Posted - 2011.08.02 16:47:00 - [24]
 

Pick any caracal and fit lasers on it, that's it you've made your pirate ship !

Or, you can fit rails on amarr ships and make eoms.

Easy.Laughing

Weeble Tauri
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.03 23:39:00 - [25]
 

One question. What is a "fregate"?


 

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