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Aynen
Posted - 2011.07.20 13:04:00 - [1]
 

To all those who seek to stop Sansha Kuvakei:

When Sansha came back, and started abducting our people, it was discovered that graviton particles being sent directly into the wormholes they used to gain access to our worlds, could destabilize those wormholes. This was due to the fact that Sansha was using technology that allowed them to control the mass that is able to travel through the wormhole at any one time.
However, the aproach of using gravimetric ECM on the wormholes to make it hard for Sansha forces to know how much mass allowance to set their wormhole to, was quickly compensated for, and is now, at best, unreliable.
After the full scale occupations of our systems began I beleived the wormhole-based operations of Sansha would be over, but recent events have proven me wrong.
So I decided to take another hard look at the ECM tactic and how to improve upon it.
I came to the conclusion that in order to be able to compensate for this tactic, Sansha must be able to monitor the wormhole with whatever technology they use to control it, and since gravimetric ECM being sent through the wormhole has appearantly had no effect on their ability to monitor the wormhole, either from this side or the other side, they must be using a different targeting technology. The targeting technology used by Caldari, where Kuvakei originaly came from, is based on gravimetrics. But the ships flown by Nation also appear to have large influences from Amarr technology, which might indicate the use of radar technology.
If this is indeed the case, sending gravitons through the wormhole to create an inpredictable mass allowance situation aswell as using radar based ecm on the wormhole might prevent Nation from being able to target, and therefor monitor, the wormhole. This would in turn mean they can't see how high the graviton count is that is affecting the wormhole, so they can nolonger compensate for it, leaving their forces trapped on our side without the possibility of reinforcements.
For maximum effect, the ships sending radar jamming signals through the wormhole should be at point blanc range from the wormhole as the signal will have to travel an unknown amount of distance on the other side of the wormhole before it can interfere with whatever ship or station Nation is using to monitor the wormhole with.
Choosing radar jamming systems is however an innitial guess at what targeting technology they might be using, and if it fails to be effective, other jamming systems must be attempted.

Operation Bad Moon will be attempting small scale experiments, which, on their own will not likely prove effective to control the wormholes, but they should indicate wether destabilization is occuring at all.
I strongly recommend other, larger forces, to keep an eye on our results so that you may use the adapted tactic on a much larger scale than Operation Bad Moon is capable of.

Once I get results I will let you know.

-The Operation Bad Moon innitiative.

Rek Jaiga
Minmatar
Crimson Path
Posted - 2011.07.20 14:36:00 - [2]
 

If radio waves (which are the entire basis behind radar and counter-radar systems) can enter Nation wormholes, then it must be the case that electromagnetic radiation can enter the wormholes (which is already a given, because from certain angles you can actually see through to the other side of the wormhole). If electromagnetic radiation can enter the wormholes, why aren't both sides firing lasers through the event horizon in hopes of scoring hits on enemy ships? You'd think Nation would already be doing this, and you'd also think the Amarr would think of this as well as both factions use laser weaponry (lasers being devices which emit electromagnetic radiation).

Aynen
Posted - 2011.07.20 15:07:00 - [3]
 

It's entirely possible that lasers can travel through, but from our side it'd be difficult to find out wether or not we're hitting anything because we have little ways of seeing what's happening on the other side.
As for why Nation isn't using lasers to fire through, I suspect it has to do with difficulties of aiming your laser, versus how cheap it must be for them to simply send ships through which don't have such difficulties.

Rek Jaiga
Minmatar
Crimson Path
Posted - 2011.07.20 15:51:00 - [4]
 

Nation has at least half a dozen Avatar-class Titans though. Sending a huge laser (The Judgement, probably enhanced with Nation tech) through the event horizon would surely hit something. Perhaps Nation actually cares about human losses, as we've been saying this entire time? In any case the latter suggestion is for a debate, and I am here only to discuss the scientific and technical side of this conversation.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.20 16:13:00 - [5]
 

The explanation for this is actually quite simple. Even if electromagnetic waves are permitted through a wormhole, they are distorted and subject to high degrees of interference in their trajectory.

While this will not hinder some basic uses of electromagnetic wavelengths, it all but nullifies the intensity and focus necessary to give a laser any level of force. All that would pass through to the other side of a wormhole would be a beam of harmless light.

Aynen
Posted - 2011.07.20 17:01:00 - [6]
 

I suspect that sending radar jamming signals through would greatly dispurse them, which will make theme lose a lot of their strength. However, it will basically turn a targeted radar jamming system into an omni-directional one on the other side of the wormhole. If you can send through a strong enough signal then even after the dispersion occurs, it should still be strong enough to interfere with any monitoring equipment Nation is using to monitor the wormhole's gravitonic conditions with.

Rek Jaiga
Minmatar
Crimson Path
Posted - 2011.07.20 17:04:00 - [7]
 

Is this so? The light is not dispersed (or refracted) as in the case of a traditional physical lense. Rather, the spacetime near the event horizons on both ends of the wormhole is highly distorted and the light simply follows a geodesic determined by the magnitude of the curvature of the local spacetime. Which is to say, the light does in fact appear distorted near the wormhole but as it exits the wormhole begins to appear normal again (because again, light follows geodesics and as one goes further from a wormhole the spacetime becomes smooth, meaning the geodesic would resemble a straight line).

Aynen
Posted - 2011.07.20 17:13:00 - [8]
 

The reason I expect distortions to occur is because I'd expect the light, as it travels through the event horizon, would interact with itself, creating an interference pattern that you would see with any type of unfocused radiation.
I may well be wrong about this, and if I am, I suspect a targeted ecm of any type won't hit anything beyond the wormhole unless it happens to be in a direct straight line from the origin of the signal.
Field testing should point out which is the case here.

Rek Jaiga
Minmatar
Crimson Path
Posted - 2011.07.20 17:25:00 - [9]
 

Why would they interfere with each other? The light from a laser disperses in (an extremely, extremely) narrow cone as per the inverse square law. Which means the beams of light are moving away from each other at any given point along the beam's trajectory. Regardless of spatial distortion, in relation to each other the beams of light would continue to move away from each other in a cone while travelling on the geodesic.

I agree though, field testing is in order. With that being said, I am confident that theory will hold.

Aynen
Posted - 2011.07.20 17:38:00 - [10]
 

The idea behind the interference is that if the distortions the beam passes through aren't equal across the breth and length of the beam, then you get some of the beam traveling in a slightly different direction as other parts of the beam, and possibly colliding with itself, aswell as colliding with itself in quantum mechanical superposition.
To be honest though, natural wormholes the way they have been occuring since the Seylinn event are not that well understood from a physics standpoint, and I'm going into the experiments with an 'anything can happen' attitude.

Tarryn Nightstorm
Minmatar
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
Posted - 2011.07.20 18:11:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Aynen
The reason I expect distortions to occur is because I'd expect the light, as it travels through the event horizon, would interact with itself, creating an interference pattern that you would see with any type of unfocused radiation.
I may well be wrong about this, and if I am, I suspect a targeted ecm of any type won't hit anything beyond the wormhole unless it happens to be in a direct straight line from the origin of the signal.
Field testing should point out which is the case here.


Hmmmm....maybe a beam of EM..."interference," I guess you can call it won't hit anything on the other side, as it would disperse.

But has anyone considered sending an actual, physical electro-magnetic pulse bomb through, and detonating it on the other side? A powerful enough electro-magnetic pulse will fry radar sets right effin' now, after all.

I'm thinking a modified version--or perhaps, hybrids thereof--of our existing Electron- and Lockbreaker-type bombs, launched by stealth-bombers.

Just a thought.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.20 18:18:00 - [12]
 

It is not just the light of a laser that matters, however. It is the focus and the heat. While the light may very well stay relatively close to its original pattern even through the distortion, it will have lost significant focus (focus being the directed point of trajectory from source to target, with least distance traveled).

Through the distortion, the beam will travel farther than its original trajectory, will have bent several times and the overall heat of the beam will have dissipated tremendously.

You clearly understand the physics behind laser technology, so surely you also understand that the reason it works the way it does is because it travels in a straight line from source to destination, in as short a time as possible to preserve both the intensity (heat) and focus (light) of the beam in order to maintain its integrity (combined force of light and heat). Electromagnetic wave distortion and interference dramatically hinders this process.

Theoretically, a supercharged and intensified laser might still work, but standard lasers will be nigh useless when fired through a wormhole.

(My own engineering and physics understanding of lasers and wormholes is far from expert level, but this is the summary of what I've been able to determine through virtualizations and research.)

Aynen
Posted - 2011.07.20 18:21:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Tarryn Nightstorm

Hmmmm....maybe a beam of EM..."interference," I guess you can call it won't hit anything on the other side, as it would disperse.

But has anyone considered sending an actual, physical electro-magnetic pulse bomb through, and detonating it on the other side? A powerful enough electro-magnetic pulse will fry radar sets right effin' now, after all.

I'm thinking a modified version--or perhaps, hybrids thereof--of our existing Electron- and Lockbreaker-type bombs, launched by stealth-bombers.

Just a thought.


The problem with that is that Sansha controls how much mass can travel through the wormhole, so they can simply deny your bomb entry. That's what the original graviton ECM tactic was based on.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.20 18:26:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Aynen
Originally by: Tarryn Nightstorm

Hmmmm....maybe a beam of EM..."interference," I guess you can call it won't hit anything on the other side, as it would disperse.

But has anyone considered sending an actual, physical electro-magnetic pulse bomb through, and detonating it on the other side? A powerful enough electro-magnetic pulse will fry radar sets right effin' now, after all.

I'm thinking a modified version--or perhaps, hybrids thereof--of our existing Electron- and Lockbreaker-type bombs, launched by stealth-bombers.

Just a thought.


The problem with that is that Sansha controls how much mass can travel through the wormhole, so they can simply deny your bomb entry. That's what the original graviton ECM tactic was based on.


Do we know how quickly Nation can alter the permitted mass level of a wormhole? Given the size of such a bomb in comparison to even a frigate, to deny it would be to deny anything passing through the wormhole.

Unless the level of mass permitted can be changed nigh instantaneously, the idea still has merit.

Aynen
Posted - 2011.07.20 18:31:00 - [15]
 

Well, after the tactic of graviton ecm was first used, Nation quickly adapted. And during the whole campaign the amount of ecm used did seem to have an impact on Nation's ability to compensate but results where unpredictable at best, hence the need for revisions.
There have been rare occurances of capsuleers succesfully sending something through the wormhole, such as Mouse Nell succesfully getting images from the other side using probes.
But reproducing such results is easier said than done, and it may well have been a one time fluke.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.20 18:33:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Aynen
Well, after the tactic of graviton ecm was first used, Nation quickly adapted. And during the whole campaign the amount of ecm used did seem to have an impact on Nation's ability to compensate but results where unpredictable at best, hence the need for revisions.
There have been rare occurances of capsuleers succesfully sending something through the wormhole, such as Mouse Nell succesfully getting images from the other side using probes.
But reproducing such results is easier said than done, and it may well have been a one time fluke.


Understood.

Tarryn Nightstorm
Minmatar
Hellstar Towing and Recovery
Posted - 2011.07.20 18:37:00 - [17]
 

Edited by: Tarryn Nightstorm on 22/07/2011 09:52:59
Originally by: Raze Valadeus
Originally by: Aynen
Originally by: Tarryn Nightstorm

Hmmmm....maybe a beam of EM..."interference," I guess you can call it won't hit anything on the other side, as it would disperse.

But has anyone considered sending an actual, physical electro-magnetic pulse bomb through, and detonating it on the other side? A powerful enough electro-magnetic pulse will fry radar sets right effin' now, after all.

I'm thinking a modified version--or perhaps, hybrids thereof--of our existing Electron- and Lockbreaker-type bombs, launched by stealth-bombers.

Just a thought.


The problem with that is that Sansha controls how much mass can travel through the wormhole, so they can simply deny your bomb entry. That's what the original graviton ECM tactic was based on.


Do we know how quickly Nation can alter the permitted mass level of a wormhole? Given the size of such a bomb in comparison to even a frigate, to deny it would be to deny anything passing through the wormhole.

Unless the level of mass permitted can be changed nigh instantaneously, the idea still has merit.


I'm pretty sure they can't do it instantly, unless I'm very much mistaken. My knowledge of this kind of physics is very limited, to put it mildly, but...now my mind won't shut off and let this go* (Us Sebbi's are weird like that)Rolling Eyes...

(Chuckles) Right, then, more coffee!

*(That, and I'm finally acceding to the entreaties of my Caldari friend who works for me, and beginning reading for the missile and bomb systems of the Stealth-Bomber class...She's very convincing, plus, we both like the idea of bombing toastersTwisted Evil)

Rek Jaiga
Minmatar
Crimson Path
Posted - 2011.07.20 18:59:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Raze Valadeus
You clearly understand the physics behind laser technology, so surely you also understand that the reason it works the way it does is because it travels in a straight line from source to destination, in as short a time as possible to preserve both the intensity (heat) and focus (light) of the beam in order to maintain its integrity (combined force of light and heat). Electromagnetic wave distortion and interference dramatically hinders this process.

Theoretically, a supercharged and intensified laser might still work, but standard lasers will be nigh useless when fired through a wormhole.



The distance would surely be quite small, seeing as a ship has to be within 2.5 kilometers of the event horizon in order to polarize its hull so it can enter through the wormhole. Also, I am not talking about a standard laser but rather the Judgement-class laser used on the Avatar. And surely if anti-radar ECM (which is just radio white noise, not focused like a laser and much less intense) can reach the other side then so too should a super-weapon laser. Hell, a laser modulated into the radio frequency range may act as a more efficient jammer by the time it reaches the other side.


As for the idea of inserting a physical bomb, as was already pointed out Nation is capable of determining how much mass may pass through a wormhole. If you were to send a bomb of mass X you could theoretically balance the load with a corresponding negative mass-energy. You know, exotic matter and such.

Graelyn
Amarr
Wolfsbrigade
Posted - 2011.07.20 20:19:00 - [19]
 

I don't even want to know the cost of a skillbook for 'Trans-wormhole locking'. Confused

Aynen
Posted - 2011.07.20 21:42:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: Graelyn
I don't even want to know the cost of a skillbook for 'Trans-wormhole locking'. Confused


Since when do skill books have a monopoly on learning?

Aynen
Posted - 2011.07.21 11:03:00 - [21]
 

Edited by: Aynen on 21/07/2011 11:04:06
Operation Bad Moon conducted it's first field test today of the adapted graviton tactic, with success!
3 Wormholes appeared in New Caldari, near the Jita gate.
Once OBM arrived, one of them was being actively used to bring Nation forces through.
I decided to start the test on the other two wormholes first, which succesfully closed both of them.
The third gate remained open however, suggesting that more ECM of either the radar or the gravimetric variety must be used to close a gate they are actively using.
However, a single radar ecm module along with 3 gravimetric ones proved to be enough to close the unused wormholes, fairly quickly.
Only after the destruction of a Nation carrier was the last remaining wormhole closed.
Larger tests should be able to show wether actively used gates can be closed with sufficient radar and gravimetric ecm.
Of note is that the radar ecm was applied at point blanc range, to achieve maximum range on the other side of the wormhole.


 

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