open All Channels
seplocked EVE General Discussion
blankseplocked If you can't code....
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6

Author Topic

Crasniya
Gallente
Dragon's Legion of New Eden
Posted - 2011.07.20 18:35:00 - [121]
 

Originally by: Xercodo
I only half like this thread.

The sentiment is right but the analogies and the break downs on how it relates are all wrong.

The problem is that you can certainly criticize the end product CCP gives us, but you can't criticize the work they put into it. Those guys that have no programming experience and ***** at CCP wondering why they haven't fixed something saying "JUTS CHANGE ONE THING, SEE FIXED, DONE" really need to be stabbed in the face.

Something as simple as that can actually be a day project because it's almost NEVER that simple. And even if the change itself is that simple, the other things it breaks in the process end up taking hours, not because the other problems are hard to solve, they might be just as simple, but sometimes these changes are just time consuming.

You can criticize the brick layer for having a crooked step, but you have no right in telling him that he's stupid cause it's as simple as dropping a brick on the ground and "how could he possibly **** that up". It's might be on very uneven and unstable ground, he needs to put a extra foundation of sand and then beat on it with a mallet to ensure it's level. It's not as simple or as quick ans just dropping the brick there.


I was specifically complaining about the sorts of people who whine about how they're not fixing simple things that are actually significantly more complicated to fix. I've seen a lot of it.

Most people in this thread, assume I'm referring to everything under the sun in this thread. And hence, have said I need experience in Public Relations, Marketing, Omnipotence, etc.

Even in design portions, there's a lot that goes into it beneath the surface to keep things running, apart from code, and you can assume there's a simple fix, when that would actually break something else in the balance.

This thread has nothing to do with their PR catastrophe, or their microtransaction pricing, etc etc, it's basically about people making amateurish claims that they know how to make the game better, without a shred of experience or education in the area.

Yes, I have a degree from DeVry. Yes, I know it's a lame school, as I commonly lament. It's also less boring than most schools and I have a short attention span. It was convenient, nearby, and I'm lazy. So while I *could* have applied myself and easily gotten into one of those really really expensive you-need-a-scholarship-for-sure-to-ever-afford-to-go-here-schools, I chose not to, because I like having a balance between work and play in my life. Anyways... experience/education is experience/education. Don't care if people are self-taught or educated in a school, but they need to have some idea what they're talking about before they start whining.

And PHP is a perfectly respectable web programming language. Those who don't like it, should find a bonfire, and jump in it. Whether they actually do or not, is completely their choice.

umaya
Posted - 2011.07.20 18:43:00 - [122]
 

I can sort of relate to the OP, while I don't think people without a dev background can't spot problems, if there is one thing that peeves me, it's people without a dev background commenting how it would only be a small fix, or it should be easy to fix, or other such nonsense.

Or more closer by, that person a few comments up that suggests they should just add threading to the client. Unless he's seen the code, knows how the client is built and did benchmarks on the bottleneck's that statement is laughable. About on-par with some junior who gets added to a legacy project and suggests everything is wrong and we should be using language X, framework X or whatever.

Petrus Blackshell
Minmatar
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2011.07.20 18:43:00 - [123]
 

I like to use Emacs.

S Byerley
Posted - 2011.07.20 18:44:00 - [124]
 

Originally by: Crasniya
PHP is a perfectly respectable web programming language. Those who don't like it, should find a bonfire, and jump in it.


I've never known anyone to claim otherwise; most computer scientists despise web programming.

A Little Girl
Posted - 2011.07.20 18:52:00 - [125]
 

If you can't make a Big Mac... you can't complain when an employee spits in it

If you can't make a car... you can't complain when the mechanic breaks a part of it

If you can't do plumbing... you can't complain when the plumber causes a leak which floods your house

If you can't use your brain... you make posts like the OP

Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.07.20 18:57:00 - [126]
 

Originally by: Crasniya
but they need to have some idea what they're talking about before they start whining.


I don't need to know **** about coding. As a paying customer I have every right to ***** about the final product.

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.07.20 19:02:00 - [127]
 

Developers that champion any language that uses whitespace as part of the syntax (like Python), makes me wonder if they just secretly miss using punch cards, or if it is all just a big joke like the Whitespace language.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.20 19:13:00 - [128]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 20/07/2011 19:48:35
Originally by: S Byerley
Java is one of the least focused high-level languages out there. It's a popular teaching language because the syntax for algorithm implementation, objects, recursion, and data structures is about as intuitive and easy to debug as it gets without carrying the corporate strings of something like C#.
Ok, fair enough. It's still not suitable for a large number of topics, which is his main point.
Quote:
/facepalm
…mainly because it's just LISP in fancy clothing Twisted Evil, again, not because of how useful it is as an implementation language.
Quote:
Computer Science is the De facto higher education for "code typists".
And that is the thing he's objecting to. He wants to see a differentiation in education much along the lines we see between engineering and natural science classes, and being a mechanic or lab rat. He's not an old programmer resisting change — he's a snob! Razz

That said, there is some hypocrisy involved here: he's rolling his eyes at firms doing "grep hiring", but kind of want to be able to do the same himself. It's just that he's coming at it from the perspective of saying that "java → compsci knowledge" is a false conclusion, and that educational institutions are helping in perpetuating that fallacy, whereas he wants to be able to make the "compsci → [vast array of topical knowledg]" conclusion.
Quote:
As someone who made a point of never learning more about pointers than was necessary for a course or a project, I'm also extremely comfortable saying that they are an extremely poor judge of general reasoning ability in computer science.
…and I think the point there is that you could learn it. There are those who grow cross-eyed when even trying to grasp the concept.

Barakach
Posted - 2011.07.20 20:01:00 - [129]
 

It comes down to this. Creating a game engine is not an easy task. Some bugs can be very hard to fix because of feature creep from expansions.

But they have gained a lot of experience and now have a very good grasp of what issues the engine has when upgrading. They should be able to re-write the game with their current knowledge and make it easier to debug and expand. While they're at it, they should incorporate the newest patterns for ASync and multi-threaded processing.

This would not be an easy accomplishment. I would think a decent portion of their programming ability and about 2 years to start over. For the client anyway. No idea about the server.

With a decently long timeline, they might-as-well aim for DX11/10. In 2 years, DX10 should be quite standard.

Satyri Hermides
Posted - 2011.07.20 20:14:00 - [130]
 

Question = MsgBox ("Are you a freaking idiot?", 4)
Dim MSG

Select Case Question

Case vbYes
MSG = "Go Away"

Case vbNo
MSG = "Your a Troll"

End Select
MsgBox MSG, vbInformation


Put all that in notepad, then name it duh.vbs and double click it... Anyone can complain


Shugo Ellecon
Posted - 2011.07.20 20:28:00 - [131]
 

Originally by: Satyri Hermides
Question = MsgBox ("Are you a freaking idiot?", 4)
Dim MSG

Select Case Question

Case vbYes
MSG = "Go Away"

Case vbNo
MSG = "Your a Troll"

Please use a real programming language :P
End Select
MsgBox MSG, vbInformation


Put all that in notepad, then name it duh.vbs and double click it... Anyone can complain




vbs is soo 1999....

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.20 20:44:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: Satyri Hermides
Put all that in notepad, then name it duh.vbs and double click it... Anyone can complain
Yeah, I want to complain: I don't have anything called notepad, and when I put that into a text file and clicked it, Dreamweaver opened. Evil or Very Mad

edith prickley
Posted - 2011.07.20 20:54:00 - [133]
 

Originally by: S Byerley
An advocate of C will argue that C should still be used because you simply can't get the same efficiency out of a language that utilizes a virtual machine and a garbage collector while automating out pointer distinctions. However, that's simply not true. There are low-level programmers who work exclusively on developing specialized Java servers that approach the speed of the same server running optimized C. When you consider the optimization mistakes made by even veteran C programmers, the Java will often come out on top.


...As will python, which is the language in question for CCP (provided a few bindings to some low-level C functions are liberally applied where needed). But I'm one of those veteran C guys, and I have the prejudice that kids today don't learn optimization at the byte level like they used to. I appreciate that in designing modern big applications, high-level code clarity might be at least as important as low-level speed. But for real efficiency, you always have to roll up your shirt-sleves and dig in to the details.

Python is a brilliant language. I admire CCP's foresight for making this choice, particularly given the state of the language in 2002. But MPI parallelization is still pretty experimental in python, and you always need to fall back to one of the old-fashioned languages if you want to make effective use of your cluster. As far as I can tell from dev-blogs, CCP are still using some kind of threaded shared memory parallelization, which will always handicap their ability to scale at some point.

But luckily we don't need to debug CCP's code at the language level for them. We pay our subscription, so we can evaluate CCP's performance as consumers: They produce customer pleasing results slower than other game manufacturers. Why should they be allowed to use the "it's complicated" excuse (cf. OP), when other game designers just get along with the job and deal with the complications?

@Petrus: Real men use vi. :wq

Crasniya
Gallente
Dragon's Legion of New Eden
Posted - 2011.07.20 20:57:00 - [134]
 

Originally by: Shugo Ellecon
vbs is soo 1999....


But so memorable...

S Byerley
Posted - 2011.07.20 21:08:00 - [135]
 

Originally by: edith prickley
Originally by: S Byerley
An advocate of C will argue that C should still be used because you simply can't get the same efficiency out of a language that utilizes a virtual machine and a garbage collector while automating out pointer distinctions. However, that's simply not true. There are low-level programmers who work exclusively on developing specialized Java servers that approach the speed of the same server running optimized C. When you consider the optimization mistakes made by even veteran C programmers, the Java will often come out on top.


...As will python, which is the language in question for CCP (provided a few bindings to some low-level C functions are liberally applied where needed). But I'm one of those veteran C guys, and I have the prejudice that kids today don't learn optimization at the byte level like they used to. I appreciate that in designing modern big applications, high-level code clarity might be at least as important as low-level speed. But for real efficiency, you always have to roll up your shirt-sleves and dig in to the details.

Python is a brilliant language. I admire CCP's foresight for making this choice, particularly given the state of the language in 2002. But MPI parallelization is still pretty experimental in python, and you always need to fall back to one of the old-fashioned languages if you want to make effective use of your cluster. As far as I can tell from dev-blogs, CCP are still using some kind of threaded shared memory parallelization, which will always handicap their ability to scale at some point.

But luckily we don't need to debug CCP's code at the language level for them. We pay our subscription, so we can evaluate CCP's performance as consumers: They produce customer pleasing results slower than other game manufacturers. Why should they be allowed to use the "it's complicated" excuse (cf. OP), when other game designers just get along with the job and deal with the complications?

@Petrus: Real men use vi. :wq


You had me until the end. All the cool kids use vim sir and/or madam.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.20 21:10:00 - [136]
 

Edited by: Tippia on 20/07/2011 21:10:12
Originally by: S Byerley
You had me until the end. All the cool kids use vim sir and/or madam.
…wait, “and”?! Shocked

Petrus Blackshell
Minmatar
Minmatar Ship Construction Services
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2011.07.20 21:23:00 - [137]
 

Originally by: edith prickley
Python is a brilliant language. I admire CCP's foresight for making this choice, particularly given the state of the language in 2002. But MPI parallelization is still pretty experimental in python, and you always need to fall back to one of the old-fashioned languages if you want to make effective use of your cluster. As far as I can tell from dev-blogs, CCP are still using some kind of threaded shared memory parallelization, which will always handicap their ability to scale at some point.


Their parallelization is not MPI-based. They use a non-standard version of Python called Stackless, which is made with lots of threading in mind. I haven't used it myself for any project, but I've played around with it and it's pretty cool. As a Python developer myself, my best guess as to the gross of their performance problems is in the modularity they baked into the game. From various design choices, it appears everything is object oriented to a bit of an obnoxious degree. I would bet WoW would be much slower too, if it were to use a discrete piece of data on the server side to track every projectile in the air (the way Eve does with missiles), or other such things. The uniquity of Eve's MMO mechanics is both a blessing and a curse: it is a one-of-a-kind experience, but there being nothing else like it means the devs are often just "winging it" and seeing what works... which can result in crappy or unoptimized code.

And chill, I use vi/vim (whichever's available) as Notepad, but for real text editing / tetris / psychotherapy, I use Emacs.

Trainwreck McGee
Posted - 2011.07.20 21:32:00 - [138]
 

CCP made a room A ROOM in 6+ months a ****ING ROOM

I dont need a degree to know they have very very low standards there.

Xercodo
Amarr
Xovoni Directorate
Posted - 2011.07.20 21:36:00 - [139]
 

Originally by: Trainwreck McGee
CCP made a room A ROOM in 6+ months a ****ING ROOM

I dont need a degree to know they have very very low standards there.


well it took me a month to make a camera work in a 3D space to work like EVE's

it was all new territory for me, and having something other then space ships are all new to them...

edith prickley
Posted - 2011.07.20 22:04:00 - [140]
 

Edited by: edith prickley on 20/07/2011 22:07:53
Originally by: Petrus Blackshell
The uniquity of Eve's MMO mechanics is both a blessing and a curse: it is a one-of-a-kind experience, but there being nothing else like it means the devs are often just "winging it" and seeing what works... which can result in crappy or unoptimized code.

Yup. But for instance there are many-body codes doing galaxy evolution which handle millions of particles with the same position/velocity info that Eve combat needs. It's essentially a "solved problem" at the level of several thousand bodies. Admittedly, I don't know if they process the info in real-time fast enough for gaming needs. Still, back of the envelope calculations suggest that internet connection latency would be a bigger factor than inter-node communication for the type of data volumes they're dealing with in a fleet battle.

Anyhow, the fact that CCP even trys to tackle these problems does deserve some respect. I suspect they could do some things better ... but I'm no professional programmer, so exactly the kind of trouble-maker the OP is complaining about.
Quote:

And chill, I use vi/vim (whichever's available) as Notepad, but for real text editing / tetris / psychotherapy, I use Emacs.

(Truth be told, I'm also an emacs guy, I just pose as a vi user for macho cred whenever I'm posing as an asian chick.)

daddys helper
Posted - 2011.07.20 22:06:00 - [141]
 

epic? troll is epic?

Whiteknight03
WESAYSO Industries
Posted - 2011.07.20 22:13:00 - [142]
 

If you don't know anything about programming, ***** about the programs themselves as much as you want. Just don't ***** about how long it takes, because coding is defiantly not easy and it takes quite a bit of time to get anything done.

edith prickley
Posted - 2011.07.20 22:18:00 - [143]
 

Originally by: Whiteknight03
If you don't know anything about programming, ***** about the programs themselves as much as you want. Just don't ***** about how long it takes, because coding is defiantly not easy and it takes quite a bit of time to get anything done.

Okay, cool. Be sure to put that on the top of your CV when you are looking for a job.

But other developers do get the job done, even when it's "not easy." Why is it more difficult for CCP?

Satyri Hermides
Posted - 2011.07.21 13:17:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Crasniya
Originally by: Shugo Ellecon
vbs is soo 1999....


But so memorable...


And the fact that you remember it means it still holds that special place in your heart...

Also, complaining about people who can't code complaining is so 1999

S Byerley
Posted - 2011.07.21 13:24:00 - [145]
 

Originally by: edith prickley
I'm no professional programmer...

I'm also an emacs guy


redundant

Astir Zekor
Posted - 2011.07.21 14:34:00 - [146]
 

It's stupid to say if you can't code you can't say anything... It's like saying you can't complain about missed luggage in airport if you don't have pilot licenseRazz

And to be honest about difficulty in fixing anything in eve it's very simple, there are little pages where workers criticize or praise they last job and about ccp biggest complain is lack of direction and appropriate documentation. Documentation isn't even required there.

If you have some experience in codeing you should know how important is documentation in large scale ongoing projects like mmos. Fixing even little thing that normaly would take an hour tops can be nightmare if poor developer have no idea where in code its hidden becouse it was coded by person that left company long ago without any documentation.

This is biggest issue with CCP and EVE, if they want to change something they need to follow entire code and look for appropriate part of code instead of quick checking in documentations.

So any fix in this environment is both a nightmare and prone to creating more bugs, I'm only codeing webpages and even in this relatively small enviroment its nightmare if code is created by few peoples, codeing in difrent styles in period of a year or two without any documentation and even without any explanations what the hell aaa1, aaa2, aaa3 is...

Sorry for my english I don't use it very often.

Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari
draketrain
Posted - 2011.07.21 14:39:00 - [147]
 

trololo imma poasting fyuu y u no coder on eve forum when i very much over 50% very coder.

Djavo
Midas Tycho
Posted - 2011.07.21 15:14:00 - [148]
 

// Hello1.cs
public class Hello1
{
public static void Main()
{
System.Console.WriteLine("Hello, World!");
}
}

haha I win, sort game, the end. Game Over.

Hakaru Ishiwara
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.07.21 15:34:00 - [149]
 

OP is a good troll! 8/10 rating.

FYI, I'm going for my master typist degree in order to be able to legitimately post on this forum. It is the e-honorable thing to do! LaughingLaughingLaughing

Karak Terrel
As Far As The eYe can see
Chained Reactions
Posted - 2011.07.21 23:27:00 - [150]
 

Originally by: Djavo
// Hello1.cs
public class Hello1
{
public static void Main()
{
System.Console.WriteLine("Hello, World!");
}
}

haha I win, sort game, the end. Game Over.


Now thats a big hello world.

ruby -e "p 'hello world'"


Pages: 1 2 3 4 [5] 6

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only