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Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
Posted - 2011.07.20 09:32:00 - [91]
 

Edited by: Miilla on 20/07/2011 09:34:39
Originally by: Klandi
So I may have missed something along the way (always happens) but isn't the responsibility of hiring the dev down the the Tech Director or similar? So why would s/he hire someone that is not competent in their area?


Taking that point to its natural progression, the dev is just the implementer, effectively he gets told what to do, it is the various levels of middle management that turn the vision of the concept in some sort of reality. If that concept is there and not being attained, then is it the devs fault?


Lets give that to an example. As a plane building company, you have designers, architects and people involved in providing a product that will fill a need. You need engineers, electricians and all manner of specialists to put it together properly and strangely enough, a different set of specialists to fly and crew it.

If the plane don't fly - what could be the reason? The body of people that is LEAST responsible are the people that put the plane together.

Relating that back to the area in question, the coder is the person that turns the concept into something tangible (the engineers in my example)they are given a task to complete, have the knowledge and expertise required and we now enjoy the result.

We should not be concentrating on the Devs ability to code, but the designers concept. That dept put forward the requirements for the number or guns, damage done etc., - that is the item that is flawed and we kick up a fuss about.

And the human race NEVER gets it right the first time...EVERYTHING is a work in progress. evolution exists on all levels. But we want it right here and now.

There - that's better, Rant over ...



It is usually up to the hiring manager for his team, not a director lol, unless it is a small company but you are right, a developer is just a tool, without domain specialism outside of those tools, they are just monkeys, nothing more, dime a dozen.

However if they are specialisets such as vision experts, metallurgists, etc well that's a different matter, coding is just a means to an end, again, coders are dime a dozen, coders are basically COMMODITIES and UTILITIES there to just get the dirty job done.

If your sole skill is just development, well, put on that red shirt :)

I don't care how good you are using a tool or know a language, our company does not make compilers :)

I have to laugh at interviewer noobs that try to trick canditates with syntax, I'm like wtf you on man, we're not hiring compiler experts lol. Needless to say they got taken out of the interview loop :)

dexington
Caldari
Baconoration
Posted - 2011.07.20 09:59:00 - [92]
 

Originally by: Miilla
It is usually up to the hiring manager for his team, not a director lol, unless it is a small company but you are right, a developer is just a tool, without domain specialism outside of those tools, they are just monkeys, nothing more, dime a dozen.


Not all domain experts are in high demand, besides it most often require higher education and/or years of professional experience in that field. If you are a versatile experienced programmer with who have been working with many different forms of technology, and maybe have some project management skills, you are just as valuable as many domain experts.

Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
Posted - 2011.07.20 10:03:00 - [93]
 

Edited by: Miilla on 20/07/2011 10:10:36
Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Miilla
It is usually up to the hiring manager for his team, not a director lol, unless it is a small company but you are right, a developer is just a tool, without domain specialism outside of those tools, they are just monkeys, nothing more, dime a dozen.


Not all domain experts are in high demand, besides it most often require higher education and/or years of professional experience in that field. If you are a versatile experienced programmer with who have been working with many different forms of technology, and maybe have some project management skills, you are just as valuable as many domain experts.



Actually our domain experts do their own coding for the algorithms, they are the best for that domain.
We have a useability expert for the interface.
Vision system expert, yeah he does his own coding for the vision.
Metallurgists, yup, couple for the raw metallurgy and one that knows C for the algorithms implementations.
A lot of domain experts are actually taught development on how to implement their specialist domain skills.

You will find most smaller companies for automation systems that sit on the shop floor ( industry ) are mostly dominated by domain experts, and perhaps 1 or 2 coders to glue it together.

Coders here are in the minority, the systems just work, if we were dominated by coders, it would be a nightmare to be honest.

Again I can give Microsoft as an example of too many coders and not enough domain experts.

MSFT favour developers even for SDET's (Test developers) over domain experts, becuase they are cheap and they are overrun by students as they are practically free.

Now, I have seen MS fire a whole BUNCH of DOMAIN EXPERTS in areas and replaced them with student developers and new developers. Guess what happened, yeah their product became a nightmare to verify, everybody was asked to take over areas to own, they had no clue, all that domain experteese was lost. Fired basisally, thrown away.

End result, nobody had a clue how that domain worked, yet they shipped it anyway. This was a HUGE product ( I won't name it :) ) sold to HUGE mid size to large enerprises for LARGE MONEY.

That is how much of a joke MS is really, they favour engineers over domain experts. I've seen it first hand. American managers fired all the domain experts, local regional managers where astounded. Now the company cannot keep local people, they walk, because of the American management mentality, 3 years later that manager ran back to America, and basically what will happen is domain experts will be brought back in and the cycle will repeat, another American manager will come in and do the same.


dexington
Caldari
Baconoration
Posted - 2011.07.20 10:24:00 - [94]
 

Originally by: Miilla
[Yellow]Coders here are in the minority, the systems just work, if we were dominated by coders, it would be a nightmare to be honest.[/Yellow


I've worked on projects with 3-5 domain experts and 30-50 programmers, the domain experts job was to help the GUI designers, they helped in the design process and they did a lot of application testing, but they never touched the code.

It's very different how domain experts are used, and it heavily depends on the size of the development team and how the software is being developed.

Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
Posted - 2011.07.20 10:29:00 - [95]
 

Edited by: Miilla on 20/07/2011 10:33:10
Originally by: dexington
Originally by: Miilla
Coders here are in the minority, the systems just work, if we were dominated by coders, it would be a nightmare to be honest.


I've worked on projects with 3-5 domain experts and 30-50 programmers, the domain experts job was to help the GUI designers, they helped in the design process and they did a lot of application testing, but they never touched the code.

It's very different how domain experts are used, and it heavily depends on the size of the development team and how the software is being developed.



30 to 50 coders against 3-5 domain experts, lol.

Does your company sell compilers? databases? or industry products?

Usually when the product is not aimed at "developers" then the balance should usually be coders in the minority, if it is aimed at developers, then I can see more developers being used.

Yes depends on the industry, usually shop floor and industry automation and applications directed at non computing domains are dominated by domain experts in any fields related to the product / company direction.

The problem with coders is they want always to be architects lol, well, a company doesnt need 50,000 architects (in the case of MS - believe me, 1 or 2 is more than enough in each BU (business unit) lol if you actually dealt with em to get spec sign off's lol) and they don't sit in their chair long enough (especially in MS's case).

Domain experts with coding skills are out there, good thing too. And they don't do the core databases or logging or whatever boilerplate glue we need, once that is coded, it just needs maintenance, we can lower our dev headcount to match the effort.

Xaifas Kyr'Ozch
Posted - 2011.07.20 10:53:00 - [96]
 

Originally by: Miilla
*cough* bla bla *cough*


int epeen = 9000;
void e*****(string forum) {
brag == much ? brag_done() : brag_more();
}

void brag_done() {
epeen++;
cout << "I has OVER 9K epeen, RAWR!";
}

Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
Posted - 2011.07.20 10:55:00 - [97]
 

Edited by: Miilla on 20/07/2011 11:51:21

Originally by: Xaifas Kyr'Ozch
Originally by: Miilla
*cough* bla bla *cough*


int epeen = 9000;
void e*****(string forum) {
brag == much ? brag_done() : brag_more();
}

void brag_done() {
epeen++;
cout << "I has OVER 9K epeen, RAWR!";
}



Using cout and standard string functions are not safe , just sayin :)
Also shouldn't you also use L macros for unicode :)

You also didn't declare the local instance variable brag.

Also KnR indentation is crap and frowned upon.

You also forgot to include your headers :)
Function prototype, but new compilers can let that go I suppose :)

And since it's an unmanaged runtime, what about Hungarian notation.


Xaifas Kyr'Ozch
Posted - 2011.07.20 10:58:00 - [98]
 

Originally by: Miilla
Edited by: Miilla on 20/07/2011 10:55:56

Using cout and standard string functions are not safe , just sayin :)
Also shouldn't you also use L macros for unicode :)

Also KnR indentation is crap and frowned upon.

You also forgot to include your headers :)
Function prototype, but new compilers can let that go I suppose :)

And since it's an unmanaged runtime, what about Hungarian notation.




You just proved my point sir.

Miilla
Minmatar
Hulkageddon Orphanage
Posted - 2011.07.20 10:59:00 - [99]
 

Originally by: Xaifas Kyr'Ozch
Originally by: Miilla
Edited by: Miilla on 20/07/2011 10:55:56

Using cout and standard string functions are not safe , just sayin :)
Also shouldn't you also use L macros for unicode :)

Also KnR indentation is crap and frowned upon.

You also forgot to include your headers :)
Function prototype, but new compilers can let that go I suppose :)

And since it's an unmanaged runtime, what about Hungarian notation.




You just proved my point sir.



Hey if you post code then expect it to be "visually inspected" lol

Gwenywell Shumuku
Posted - 2011.07.20 11:29:00 - [100]
 

Originally by: Crasniya
....you can't talk.

I've gotten pretty fed up with people in various forum posts who think they have the right to whine and moan about CCP's game design, game programming, code optimization work, etc. etc. etc. from people who obviously have no grasp of what it takes to code a game of Solitaire, much less an MMO.

Get a Bachelor's of Science in Game and Simulation Programming (That's what DeVry calls it anyways, sure other colleges have similar degrees under different names), and if you STILL have complaints... then whine and moan.


I see. So if you are no plumber, and the guy doesn't fix your toilet, you shouldnt complain if **** happens? Is that what you are saying?

Genious.

Bklyn 1
Posted - 2011.07.20 13:22:00 - [101]
 

Originally by: Crasniya
....you can't talk.

I've gotten pretty fed up with people in various forum posts who think they have the right to whine and moan about CCP's game design, game programming, code optimization work, etc. etc. etc. from people who obviously have no grasp of what it takes to code a game of Solitaire, much less an MMO.

Get a Bachelor's of Science in Game and Simulation Programming (That's what DeVry calls it anyways, sure other colleges have similar degrees under different names), and if you STILL have complaints... then whine and moan.


I can't code, but I can play video games. When I see sub-par stuff, I assume that people exist who are capable of doing it better, since I've seen it done better in other video games. As a free courtesy, I provide customer feedback.

Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
Posted - 2011.07.20 14:59:00 - [102]
 

Originally by: Miilla
Edited by: Miilla on 19/07/2011 21:22:30

I can code and that includes DirectX architecture and AI and more and no you don't need a bachelors anything to do it and indeed the people we hire are actually smarter than "graduates" funnly enough. Usually Bachelors come out of university like useless cabbages in the work place (at least the one's we got from the US and UK anyway - they were too busy comparing body bits and kept on ****ing me off in my office trying to get promotions and flights of fancy around the world and acting know it all's but they knew little of reality and telling us we are making the wrong decisions for a business), come to me when you get real world experience, we only hire experienced people, and yes that usually means older people because they are far more mature than new graduates. Let the big name companies take em, they can hide in there amongst the red tape and memos.


That's some truth right up there. ^

RAW23
Posted - 2011.07.20 15:04:00 - [103]
 

Originally by: Crasniya
....you can't talk.

I've gotten pretty fed up with people in various forum posts who think they have the right to whine and moan about CCP's game design, game programming, code optimization work, etc. etc. etc. from people who obviously have no grasp of what it takes to code a game of Solitaire, much less an MMO.

Get a Bachelor's of Science in Game and Simulation Programming (That's what DeVry calls it anyways, sure other colleges have similar degrees under different names), and if you STILL have complaints... then whine and moan.


If you can't reason correctly, as you clearly cannot, then you shouldn't really talk about anything.

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.20 15:14:00 - [104]
 

Originally by: Crasniya
....you can't talk.

I've gotten pretty fed up with people in various forum posts who think they have the right to whine and moan about CCP's game design, game programming, code optimization work, etc. etc. etc. from people who obviously have no grasp of what it takes to code a game of Solitaire, much less an MMO.

Get a Bachelor's of Science in Game and Simulation Programming (That's what DeVry calls it anyways, sure other colleges have similar degrees under different names), and if you STILL have complaints... then whine and moan.


Once you pay for something you have the right to criticize it, period. If no-one complained about Windows you'd be running 3.11 and certainly not playing EvE.

Tobias Sjodin
Habitual Euthanasia
Pandemic Legion
Posted - 2011.07.20 15:18:00 - [105]
 

Actually you CAN talk. However, with the fact that everyone has an opinion, and that 'everyone' in this game number in the hundreds of thousands, there is a lot of inflation going on in regards to the value of said opinion.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.20 15:19:00 - [106]
 

Originally by: Miilla
Also KnR indentation is crap and frowned upon.
GTFO

Heathen.

Cipher7
Posted - 2011.07.20 15:22:00 - [107]
 

Edited by: Cipher7 on 20/07/2011 15:32:24

I can do anything I put my mind to, just because I took a path in life other than programming doesn't mean I have no right to say "this is schit quality work."

That's like saying "You can't say these steps are broken unless you're a bricklayer."

Don't need to be a proctologist to tell when ppl are full of schit.

That said I think Eve programming is fine, just bad design and UI.

Saying something is a PvP game and letting unlimited people into a system is dumb.

When you join a game of Halo and the teams are 10 vs 1, that's broken.

When you join a game of Halo and teams are 200 vs 800 that's even more broken because the node is gonna crash on top of teams being unbalanced.

Why do you let that many people into the system if it can't handle it. Most servers have slots. "This server can handle X players" 248...249...250... STOP, no more people allowed in system. DUH.

And who the hell ever heard of nested menus as a UI.

Walking on stations. That's like CoD meets "The Sims." That's ******ed.

Do one thing, do it well.

You gonna be a space game, be a space game.

You wanna be the Sims, be the Sims.

Sit there going "I'm a viking, I'm a viking" no b*tch you're not a viking, learn basic game design.

Nova Kira
Ashes Against The Grain
Posted - 2011.07.20 15:50:00 - [108]
 

I don't need to know how to code in order to figure out that there are errors, or how to report them.

The first week of incarna alone, character skins and clothing skins bugged out, displaying random things such as text from my email, a list of bookmarks and even bits of my desktop background. I'm sure it doesn't take a genius to recognize that the character creation is completely buggy when I'm staring at a completely blue head on a completely red body.


I also don't need to know how to code to recognize a Z axis error or to come to the conclusion that the game client shouldn't be crashing 30 seconds after I log in, over and over and over.

Xercodo
Amarr
Xovoni Directorate
Posted - 2011.07.20 15:54:00 - [109]
 

I only half like this thread.

The sentiment is right but the analogies and the break downs on how it relates are all wrong.

The problem is that you can certainly criticize the end product CCP gives us, but you can't criticize the work they put into it. Those guys that have no programming experience and ***** at CCP wondering why they haven't fixed something saying "JUTS CHANGE ONE THING, SEE FIXED, DONE" really need to be stabbed in the face.

Something as simple as that can actually be a day project because it's almost NEVER that simple. And even if the change itself is that simple, the other things it breaks in the process end up taking hours, not because the other problems are hard to solve, they might be just as simple, but sometimes these changes are just time consuming.

You can criticize the brick layer for having a crooked step, but you have no right in telling him that he's stupid cause it's as simple as dropping a brick on the ground and "how could he possibly **** that up". It's might be on very uneven and unstable ground, he needs to put a extra foundation of sand and then beat on it with a mallet to ensure it's level. It's not as simple or as quick ans just dropping the brick there.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.20 16:01:00 - [110]
 

Originally by: Xercodo
The problem is that you can certainly criticize the end product CCP gives us, but you can't criticize the work they put into it.
Actually, you can quite often do that as well because even without experience, you have other points of reference to compare against where the same amount of work generated far better results.

*cough*newforums*cough*

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.20 16:10:00 - [111]
 

^^Missing the point.

Its a free market for most of us. You can complain about what a company does or does not do all day long. When its all said and done, people will buy what they feel is the best product they can get for their money.

For example, the expansions are a hot topic right now. Many people feel they are inadequate. You can complain about the coding, the lack of coding, the content, the lack of content etc etc. But at the end of the day, the real comparison is between what you are paying for and your other options. In my personal experience, the EvE model is better than the WoW and GW model, even tho the EvE expansions give less content. The WoW model gives an expansion with more content, but a monthly fee and charges for the expansion. The GW model has no monthly fee but you have to pay for the expansion.

IMHO EvE is better because even tho the expansions come out with less features, they come out more frequently, and they add features at patch time in between. GW is 7 years old with four expansions. You needed 200 bucks to pay the game with one account if you purchased the base model, no MT, as they came out.

Anyway, the point is that you vote with your dollar and you can say anything you want about the coding of the game. You don't have to know how to code to know product x is better than product y, just like you don't have to be a mechanic to know a BMW is better than a Daewoo.


Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.20 16:15:00 - [112]
 

Originally by: Cipher Jones
You can complain about the coding, the lack of coding, the content, the lack of content etc etc. But at the end of the day, the real comparison is between what you are paying for and your other options. In my personal experience, the EvE model is better than the WoW and GW model, even tho the EvE expansions give less content.
Fair enough, but that still leaves us with the longitudinal point of reference that is CCP itself (setting aside those instances where the EVE model content isn't actually different from any other model). You can still, as a complete novice in the field of coding, say "I've seen CCP themselves do better than this".
Quote:
Anyway, the point is that you vote with your dollar
…unless you're in a niche market. Wink

S Byerley
Posted - 2011.07.20 16:41:00 - [113]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Anyway…


This argument is a bad one and indicative of an old programmer overly resistant to change. The trend has always been towards a growing divide between back-end programmers and application programmers; for good reason. I'm struggling not to use an assembly line analogy, but the truth is that developers are much more effective when they can either focus exclusively on the big picture or the small picture, and anyone who tells you they can't program an application faster in, for instance, Java over C, is either lying to him/herself or to you. An advocate of C will argue that C should still be used because you simply can't get the same efficiency out of a language that utilizes a virtual machine and a garbage collector while automating out pointer distinctions. However, that's simply not true. There are low-level programmers who work exclusively on developing specialized Java servers that approach the speed of the same server running optimized C. When you consider the optimization mistakes made by even veteran C programmers, the Java will often come out on top.

I'll be very happy when C is finally phased out of application development, and it would happen a lot faster without ****ers like this guy.

As for pointers being a weed out factor, he contradicts his own argument when he makes reference to Universities traditionally using Latin and Greek in the same way. The standard changed not to make it easier, but to make it more relevant. I do work on parallelization optimizations that would make this man go running back to his fixed points. That doesn't mean it's inherently more challenging, it's just a different set of reasoning abilities. Why weed out students with pointer concepts when it's not what they'll be using in industry?

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.20 17:07:00 - [114]
 

Edited by: Cipher Jones on 20/07/2011 17:14:37
Originally by: Tippia
Originally by: Cipher Jones
You can complain about the coding, the lack of coding, the content, the lack of content etc etc. But at the end of the day, the real comparison is between what you are paying for and your other options. In my personal experience, the EvE model is better than the WoW and GW model, even tho the EvE expansions give less content.
Fair enough, but that still leaves us with the longitudinal point of reference that is CCP itself (setting aside those instances where the EVE model content isn't actually different from any other model). You can still, as a complete novice in the field of coding, say "I've seen CCP themselves do better than this".
Quote:
Anyway, the point is that you vote with your dollar
…unless you're in a niche market. Wink


I guess it depends on how far down you sub-genre-fy the 'niche'. The problem I can see is that the other space MMOS suck, not that they don't exist.

And I guess I agree that I could compare CCP to CCP, but the problem with that is that so much of what I hear is, well, hearsay. I don't get effected by every bug and people exaggerate. When people come here everyday and say things are "gamebreaking', I start to get used to it as a whine, and if it doesn't affect me then I immediately forget about it.

Edit: thought of a perfect example....

I have been told turning CQ on is "gamebreaking" for some players. Some have the hardware to run CQ on one client and some do not.

If you do not have the resources to run even one client with CQ on it is in fact game breaking, because you cant play the game.

If you have the resources to run a single client with CQ on, but not multiple clients, it is not gamebreaking.

And of course people word things as ambiguously as CCP in the same breath they are slandering them with...

"CQ is gamebreaking for me." Bull****. You can still turn it off and get better performance than before.

"Turning CQ on is gamebreaking for me." There you go. It could be.

On the subject, I have a 6 month old 50 dollar video card, 32 bit OS, and dual core AMD 2ghz cpu with 2 gigs of ram. Lower middle class PC and runs it flawlessly on one client. So when the same people tell me CCP fails at coding that told me CQ 'broke' EvE, I tend to take it with a grain of salt.

Tippia
Caldari
Sunshine and Lollipops
Posted - 2011.07.20 17:22:00 - [115]
 

Originally by: S Byerley
I'm struggling not to use an assembly line analogy, but the truth is that developers are much more effective when they can either focus exclusively on the big picture or the small picture, and anyone who tells you they can't program an application faster in, for instance, Java over C, is either lying to him/herself or to you.

[…]

I'll be very happy when C is finally phased out of application development, and it would happen a lot faster without ****ers like this guy.
But that's not his argument. He has nothing against any particular language as a tool to make your programs; he has a problem of using one very circumscribed language to teach programming in its various forms. C is excellent for teaching certain concepts, as is LISP Scheme, as is [insert favourite language here]. But none of them can do it all, and Java is so focused on one thing that it's a pretty poor teaching language for almost anything.

Hell, his favourite language is JavaScript.
Quote:
Why weed out students with pointer concepts when it's not what they'll be using in industry?
Because he wants students who know how to solve problems using computers, not an industrial work force. He's talking about CompSci courses — something that should approach an actual science (or at least some kind of advanced engineering) — not about mass-producing code typists.

That is not to say that there is no need for code typists, but rather that CompSci is not the field that should fill that role. He's not an old programmer resistant to change; he's a teach company owner who wants to be able to look at applicants' resumés and say "ok, compsci, then I can safely assume that he is more than a code typist and that (s)he has all those different sets of reasoning abilities".

Ildus Hekx
Minmatar
Republic Military School
Posted - 2011.07.20 17:29:00 - [116]
 

Originally by: Crasniya
....you can't talk.

I've gotten pretty fed up with people in various forum posts who think they have the right to whine and moan about CCP's game design, game programming, code optimization work, etc. etc. etc. from people who obviously have no grasp of what it takes to code a game of Solitaire, much less an MMO.

Get a Bachelor's of Science in Game and Simulation Programming (That's what DeVry calls it anyways, sure other colleges have similar degrees under different names), and if you STILL have complaints... then whine and moan.


Eh.... F' U

Barakach
Posted - 2011.07.20 17:47:00 - [117]
 

Originally by: Crasniya
....you can't talk.

I've gotten pretty fed up with people in various forum posts who think they have the right to whine and moan about CCP's game design, game programming, code optimization work, etc. etc. etc. from people who obviously have no grasp of what it takes to code a game of Solitaire, much less an MMO.

Get a Bachelor's of Science in Game and Simulation Programming (That's what DeVry calls it anyways, sure other colleges have similar degrees under different names), and if you STILL have complaints... then whine and moan.


The game engine could use a nice peppering of threading. I went to Jita during the protests to see how my comp would handle everything.. 1 core pegged at 100% and the GPU at 15%. No threading at all.

This game could benefit from 2-3 thread, especially with newer CPUs actually lowering IPC in trade for more cores. It won't be long before upgrading your CPU will make the game run slower.

This game actually has very few annoying "bugs". Most of the issues that annoy me are related to the UI waiting on the server to validate. But they should be looking to doing some amount of threading. Usually threading and ASync patterns are highly correlated, so I bet they don't make full use of ASync programming either. Although, there are many uses for ASync to speed up single threads, so I would hope they have some amount of ASync going on.

Baaldor
Black Sail Anarchists
Yarr Collective
Posted - 2011.07.20 17:54:00 - [118]
 

Originally by: Crasniya
....you can't talk.

I've gotten pretty fed up with people in various forum posts who think they have the right to whine and moan about CCP's game design, game programming, code optimization work, etc. etc. etc. from people who obviously have no grasp of what it takes to code a game of Solitaire, much less an MMO.

Get a Bachelor's of Science in Game and Simulation Programming (That's what DeVry calls it anyways, sure other colleges have similar degrees under different names), and if you STILL have complaints... then whine and moan.


Yes, having a ****ty degree allows you to make ****ty products and no one can call you on it unless they have a ****ty degree too.

Barbelo Valentinian
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2011.07.20 17:58:00 - [119]
 

Originally by: Xercodo

You can criticize the brick layer for having a crooked step, but you have no right in telling him that he's stupid cause it's as simple as dropping a brick on the ground and "how could he possibly **** that up". It's might be on very uneven and unstable ground, he needs to put a extra foundation of sand and then beat on it with a mallet to ensure it's level. It's not as simple or as quick ans just dropping the brick there.


Well, I guess it depends on how much you're paying the bricklayer. If you're not paying her much (going by industry standards) then yeah, you can't expect her to be good enough to be able to cope with particularly difficult problems easily; but if you're paying her well, or over the odds, then her ability to cope with difficulties is precisely what you're paying over the odds for.

And moreover (Carthage ought to be destroyed), if CCP are going to tout EVE as a "Premium" product, then peoples' level of tolerance for excuses on account of the sweaty difficulties of coding will, accordingly, be lower.

S Byerley
Posted - 2011.07.20 18:00:00 - [120]
 

Originally by: Tippia
Java is so focused on one thing that it's a pretty poor teaching language for almost anything.


Java is one of the least focused high-level languages out there. It's a popular teaching language because the syntax for algorithm implementation, objects, recursion, and data structures is about as intuitive and easy to debug as it gets without carrying the corporate strings of something like C#. A focused language is something like PHP or Bash.

Originally by: Tippia
his favourite language is JavaScript.


/facepalm

Originally by: Tippia
Because he wants students who know how to solve problems using computers, not an industrial work force. He's talking about CompSci courses — something that should approach an actual science (or at least some kind of advanced engineering) — not about mass-producing code typists.

That is not to say that there is no need for code typists, but rather that CompSci is not the field that should fill that role. He's not an old programmer resistant to change; he's a teach company owner who wants to be able to look at applicants' resumés and say "ok, compsci, then I can safely assume that he is more than a code typist and that (s)he has all those different sets of reasoning abilities".


Computer Science is the De facto higher education for "code typists". At most schools, it's extremely easy to prepare yourself for the type of computer science you'd like to go into based on your choice of senior courses. If he was any good at hiring, he'd be looking at courses rather than ability to use pointers.

Let's be clear, pointers have exactly nothing to do with the theory side of Computer Science. They are an interim step between working directly with registers and working directly with higher level abstracted variables. As someone who made a point of never learning more about pointers than was necessary for a course or a project, I'm also extremely comfortable saying that they are an extremely poor judge of general reasoning ability in computer science.


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