open All Channels
seplocked Intergalactic Summit
blankseplocked To serve, or not to serve? And who to serve?
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: 1 2 [3]

Author Topic

Vikarion
Caldari
State Trade Consortium
Posted - 2011.07.25 04:06:00 - [61]
 

Originally by: Commander Dirtbag
Originally by: Diana Kim


This slavery issue is internal Amarr problem, and they will deal with it themselves, without us or... YOU telling them what to do. They have ancient and beauty culture and they are very conservative. It is very hard to them to go against their traditions, thus it is simply impossible for them to just get rid of slavery because, for example, another dunderhead gallente senator told them to do so.



We appreciate our Caldari allies in our struggle to spread the Truth across New Eden. o7

The slavery issue has already been dealt with in the Empire. We clothe, feed, and shelter the Minmatar like we would any other livestock. All we ask in return is that they tend our fields, work our factories, and man our lasers. Is that really so much to ask after all we've done for them? I think not.

Dirtbag


It's still going to backfire on you, you do realize? One can justify it all one likes, but, in the end, you have less reason to keep them under than they do to kill you.

Better to release them now, and have some good will, then to one day find that they have the upper hand.


Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.25 13:13:00 - [62]
 

A point of clarification:

Captain Dirtbag's views and statements represent himself only, not the Empire or the Amarr people as a whole.

Captain Dirtbag,

I understand your attempts to live up to your callsign, but your views and statements are representative of a complete lack of understanding of the Amarr culture and faith. Educate yourself before spreading your ignorance further.

Rahn Koban
Posted - 2011.07.27 06:05:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Adeli Bosboger



Several of the responses I've received seem to raise the notion that I'm somehow not Matari if I'm to hesitate before joining this war. This is something I resent, as if my people are indeed only themselves if they adhere to blind obedience without question, then who's to say we're so different from our enemies?

I hope my future comrades in the TLF will forgive my misgivings. I'll be amongst their ranks inside the day.




Hesitance before spilling blood is no fault. Infact I belive any with a soul would hesitate before shooting Amarrian warships possibly crewed by our blood still in bondage. It is a sad thing that some will die in the course of liberating more, but I belive our willingness to do what is necessary to defend our freedoms, and the freedoms of our brothers and sisters, is what makes us Matari.

N'maro Makari
Posted - 2011.07.27 12:07:00 - [64]
 

Edited by: N''maro Makari on 27/07/2011 12:07:52
Originally by: Leopold Caine
Young mr. Bosboger seemed rather promising at first.
Pity the Shakorite propaganda took another one of its victims.


This is a prime example of a dangerous ignorance prevelant in the Empire and Kingdom, complete ignorance of the fact that "Shakorite propaganda" is only effective because the vast majority of it is true, and rest is based in truth.

And that truth is that there are still Holders like the aptly named Dirtbag, there are still people who make money from hunting escaped slaves, slaves still have Vitoc put into their bodies, slaves are still put in "breeder facilities", they are still being worked to death not to mention being forced to serve on your ships, human beings are still being denied their right to self determination, and a good few Holders still actively encourage slavery as a means to keep the Empire prosperous, i.e. thinking about their wretched selves rather than any religious motive. This is a concise list, ladies and gentlemen, I could well go on.

Now centuries later, we do not know your God, and we do not want your God. You are welcome to him, but keep us out of it.

N'maro Makari
Posted - 2011.07.27 12:10:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Commander Dirtbag
Originally by: Diana Kim


This slavery issue is internal Amarr problem, and they will deal with it themselves, without us or... YOU telling them what to do. They have ancient and beauty culture and they are very conservative. It is very hard to them to go against their traditions, thus it is simply impossible for them to just get rid of slavery because, for example, another dunderhead gallente senator told them to do so.



We appreciate our Caldari allies in our struggle to spread the Truth across New Eden. o7

The slavery issue has already been dealt with in the Empire. We clothe, feed, and shelter the Minmatar like we would any other livestock. All we ask in return is that they tend our fields, work our factories, and man our lasers. Is that really so much to ask after all we've done for them? I think not.

Dirtbag


You also put poison in their bodies and worked them to death for you own selfish motives, so you'll forgive me if I say yes, it is too much to ask.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.27 12:54:00 - [66]
 

Captain Makari,

There are also many Amarrians working toward improving things, to deny that truth is to negate the entirety of your argument's foundation.

I'm beginning to sound like a broken record but evils have been committed on both sides and by both peoples and the longer we continue to jab one another with our evils and inhumanities, the longer the malice and war will continue to be fed.

N'maro Makari
Posted - 2011.07.27 17:36:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: Raze Valadeus
Captain Makari,

There are also many Amarrians working toward improving things, to deny that truth is to negate the entirety of your argument's foundation.

I'm beginning to sound like a broken record but evils have been committed on both sides and by both peoples and the longer we continue to jab one another with our evils and inhumanities, the longer the malice and war will continue to be fed.


I do not deny it, I encourage and welcome it. However, its difficult to accept a handshake of peace while the other hand wields a knife, which highlights the difference between you and Dirtbag.

Also, my retort was mostly aimed at Caine, and his premise that the Matari are being blindly led by bloodthirsty dictators.

Maximum Kiely
Caldari
Kiely and Son Salvage
Posted - 2011.07.27 19:18:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: Raze Valadeus
Captain Makari,

There are also many Amarrians working toward improving things, to deny that truth is to negate the entirety of your argument's foundation.

I'm beginning to sound like a broken record but evils have been committed on both sides and by both peoples and the longer we continue to jab one another with our evils and inhumanities, the longer the malice and war will continue to be fed.


Do you propose some form of reciprocity or simply a let's all let bygones be bygones approach?

Veronique Devereaux
Posted - 2011.07.27 20:41:00 - [69]
 

Edited by: Veronique Devereaux on 27/07/2011 20:41:36
((oops))

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.28 13:08:00 - [70]
 

Originally by: Maximum Kiely
Originally by: Raze Valadeus
Captain Makari,

There are also many Amarrians working toward improving things, to deny that truth is to negate the entirety of your argument's foundation.

I'm beginning to sound like a broken record but evils have been committed on both sides and by both peoples and the longer we continue to jab one another with our evils and inhumanities, the longer the malice and war will continue to be fed.


Do you propose some form of reciprocity or simply a let's all let bygones be bygones approach?


Reciprocation only begets further reciprocation.

Reparations and active, sincere demonstrations of a pursuit toward peace would undoubtedly be necessary, as well as compromise on both sides. It is foolish to suggest that both sides should simply "let bygones be bygones," but it is also necessary to realize that the pursuit of peace will require compromise and a level of forgiveness that does not starve justice.

Lucius Vindictus
Amarr
East Khanid Trading
Khanid Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.28 13:52:00 - [71]
 

Serving is for commoners. Capsuleers are too autonomous to make good servants. Any employers trying to treat us as such will soon become just another trivial line in a long employment history list. In the best case such corporations find themselves easily left and forgotten. In the worst case a disgruntled capsuleer might take revenge and/or allocate themselves a... severance fee.

It is better to allow a capsuleer to stay their own master while offering an environment that allows them to thrive and grow. Whether this is by offering them a hunting ground or an industrial complex is up to the whims and preferences of the demigod in question.

Don's ask who or what you should serve... ask who should serve you.

Diana Kim
Caldari
Wolfsbrigade
Posted - 2011.07.28 16:04:00 - [72]
 

Originally by: Lucius Vindictus
Serving is for commoners. Capsuleers are too autonomous to make good servants. Any employers trying to treat us as such will soon become just another trivial line in a long employment history list. In the best case such corporations find themselves easily left and forgotten. In the worst case a disgruntled capsuleer might take revenge and/or allocate themselves a... severance fee.

It is better to allow a capsuleer to stay their own master while offering an environment that allows them to thrive and grow. Whether this is by offering them a hunting ground or an industrial complex is up to the whims and preferences of the demigod in question.

Don's ask who or what you should serve... ask who should serve you.


Now you are talking like a gallente, and it is very disgusting. Talking about 'commoners', I think you were opposing them to 'nobles' of your society. And in this case I will absolutely disagree with you.
Serving is for nobles, not for commoners. How you talk about capsuleers and their ability to choose employers - this is also applicable to commoners, who will choose whom to work for only because of payment. Maybe I am not right, but I think your nobles serve your King not for money, but because of sense of duty and dedication.

To serve you need much more strength and will, than a commoner can have. You should be able to defend others interests before your own. And only when you will be ready to give your life for someone else, you will understand the meaning of 'serving'.

Ava Starfire
Minmatar
Teraa Matar
Posted - 2011.07.28 16:53:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Raze Valadeus
Originally by: Maximum Kiely
Originally by: Raze Valadeus
Captain Makari,

There are also many Amarrians working toward improving things, to deny that truth is to negate the entirety of your argument's foundation.

I'm beginning to sound like a broken record but evils have been committed on both sides and by both peoples and the longer we continue to jab one another with our evils and inhumanities, the longer the malice and war will continue to be fed.


Do you propose some form of reciprocity or simply a let's all let bygones be bygones approach?


Reciprocation only begets further reciprocation.

Reparations and active, sincere demonstrations of a pursuit toward peace would undoubtedly be necessary, as well as compromise on both sides. It is foolish to suggest that both sides should simply "let bygones be bygones," but it is also necessary to realize that the pursuit of peace will require compromise and a level of forgiveness that does not starve justice.


Reparations need be made only once. However, one side must be willing to actually make them, and the other prepared to accept them.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.28 18:27:00 - [74]
 

Originally by: Ava Starfire
Originally by: Raze Valadeus
Originally by: Maximum Kiely
Originally by: Raze Valadeus
Captain Makari,

There are also many Amarrians working toward improving things, to deny that truth is to negate the entirety of your argument's foundation.

I'm beginning to sound like a broken record but evils have been committed on both sides and by both peoples and the longer we continue to jab one another with our evils and inhumanities, the longer the malice and war will continue to be fed.


Do you propose some form of reciprocity or simply a let's all let bygones be bygones approach?


Reciprocation only begets further reciprocation.

Reparations and active, sincere demonstrations of a pursuit toward peace would undoubtedly be necessary, as well as compromise on both sides. It is foolish to suggest that both sides should simply "let bygones be bygones," but it is also necessary to realize that the pursuit of peace will require compromise and a level of forgiveness that does not starve justice.


Reparations need be made only once. However, one side must be willing to actually make them, and the other prepared to accept them.


On this, we agree completely, Ava.

Lucius Vindictus
Amarr
East Khanid Trading
Khanid Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.28 22:49:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: Diana Kim
...


I see I don't fit into the box of stereotypes you were going to stuff me into. That makes me happy. As for the rest of what you said, I don't think you realize how much freedom capsuleers have compared to the people that scrub our ships clean inside the stations or who mine the ores out of the planets below for our profit.

Mitara Newelle
Amarr
PIE Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.28 22:55:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: Raze Valadeus
Originally by: Ava Starfire

Reparations need be made only once. However, one side must be willing to actually make them, and the other prepared to accept them.

On this, we agree completely, Ava.


I am eager to see what reparations Ava Starfire and her fellow terrorists offer the Empire.


Adeli Bosboger
Posted - 2011.07.28 23:20:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Mitara Newelle
Originally by: Raze Valadeus
Originally by: Ava Starfire

Reparations need be made only once. However, one side must be willing to actually make them, and the other prepared to accept them.

On this, we agree completely, Ava.


I am eager to see what reparations Ava Starfire and her fellow terrorists offer the Empire.




Here we go again.

Hori To
Masuat'aa Matari
Posted - 2011.07.29 07:25:00 - [78]
 

Originally by: Mitara Newelle
Originally by: Raze Valadeus
Originally by: Ava Starfire

Reparations need be made only once. However, one side must be willing to actually make them, and the other prepared to accept them.

On this, we agree completely, Ava.


I am eager to see what reparations Ava Starfire and her fellow terrorists offer the Empire.




how about some barrage m?

Maximum Kiely
Caldari
Kiely and Son Salvage
Posted - 2011.07.29 16:31:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Raze Valadeus
...it is also necessary to realize that the pursuit of peace will require compromise and a level of forgiveness that does not starve justice.


Mhmm... that's the tricky part.

You can also turn that around to be a level of justice that does not starve forgiveness. These types of discussions are difficult ones, I commend you for trying to create dialogue Captain Valadeus.

Unfortunately cultures at war often become cultures of war.

Diana Kim
Caldari
Wolfsbrigade
Posted - 2011.07.29 18:31:00 - [80]
 

Originally by: Lucius Vindictus
I see I don't fit into the box of stereotypes you were going to stuff me into. That makes me happy.

Oh, well. Then you didn't completely understand what my 'stereotypes' are and what I assume about people by default. But let it be as is, if it makes you happy.

Originally by: Lucius Vindictus
As for the rest of what you said, I don't think you realize how much freedom capsuleers have compared to the people that scrub our ships clean inside the stations or who mine the ores out of the planets below for our profit.

You forgot one thing: they are doing it for their own profit.

And I think you are not quite right by distinguishing normal people from capsuleers. People haven't changes for millennia since first small colonies to large interplanetary Empires, they have the same desires and dreams, same flaws and sins.

Everything that makes us different is the illusion of immortality, the illusion that makes you feel yourself as 'demi-god'. But in fact, we are still the same particles of star dust, that will live its age and eventually burn out, as everything else.

Tim Steakley
Posted - 2011.07.30 19:14:00 - [81]
 

Serve who you will of those "empires". It is only a matter of time before you realize that they are petty wars, fought by petty nations, with petty goals.

The "war" you are so concerned with the ethics of is little more than a training ground for many, a fight that is cheap thrills for others, and an excuse to have a proper brawl for most who gleefully kill each other without consequence. Indeed, the "Empires" seem to have accepted it as a way to allow dangerous capsuleer elements to blow off steam without much in the way of true consequence. Their war is a playground for capsuleers and a testing ground for their navies, but little more.

There have been several times when one side or the other could have dealt a coup-de-grace, but refrained with gentlemanly good behavior. They fight their little skirmishes over secondary systems and secondary worlds, afraid to intrude upon each others core. Whether this is ineptitude, or an acceptance that the war they fight is little more than a distraction, neither should cause as much moral heartache as there seems to be.

The empires, for all their philosophical musings, all play by the same rules, and make sure that the same factions are in the same power. The slaughter of the millions you worry over, is little more than sanctioned murder in the name of pride. Its actual effects are naught.

Your moral quandry is moot: anybody staring past the blinding glare of propaganda can see that this war serve sno purpose other than itself. Some of your people will still be slaves. The Amarrians will never re-subdue you. This will not change. The deaths of your crew, and the crews you kill, will probably never be mentioned or cared about as the great powers have a slightly violent ball room dance. To enter it is to embrace warring for wars sake, as it can never be concluded for one side or the other; it can only serve as a living valhalla for capsuleers, a place to fight endlessly and laugh over a drink at night, and a cold grave for the millions foolish enough to join their crews.

But then what is left, if there is no empire to serve? First understand this: As a capsuleer you are more than eternal life, you are also, by dint of your power, eternal death. It doesn't matter if you trade in Jita, and your run on robotics causes thousands to starve on some colony as workers are laid off, or if you watch your autocannon tear through the hull of a fellow immortal. People will die, lives will be ruined, because of YOU. It is the burden of power.

All you can hope to do is make their deaths serve a purpose. And purpose is not to be found in the squabble of empires.

Come out to the deep black, the long night, where your wars and their deaths will carve a society, if only for a day. Only there can you be truly free; only there can the inevitable deaths have any meaning.

Or, of course, face the least pleasant introspection: they will die for your purposes, they will die for your riches, they will die so that you can fly a ship you like better. They will die because you were bored and wanted a sparring match.

Choose as you will, but don't decieve yourself into thinking there is any greater morality to deaths you cause in the Great Game of Empire.

Lucius Vindictus
Amarr
East Khanid Trading
Khanid Trade Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.31 01:17:00 - [82]
 

Edited by: Lucius Vindictus on 31/07/2011 01:45:51
Originally by: Diana Kim
you didn't completely understand what my 'stereotypes' are


Stereotypes bore me. So I agree, let's not allow another pointless discussion to be born into this forum.

Originally by: Diana Kim
And I think you are not quite right by distinguishing normal people from capsuleers. People haven't changes for millennia since first small colonies to large interplanetary Empires, they have the same desires and dreams, same flaws and sins.


Have you examined your own normal human body (that happens to be made out of cadavers) lately, after you very normally floated in a pod filled with nanites and amniotic fluids? Ever wondered about the normal sockets that are sunken into your back? Ever ran your hand over your normal skull fulled with normal cybernetics? Ever wondered why you can casually commit mass murder and then return to the station to mingle with the survivors without being arrested? Have you ever dropped an entire industrial park on a wrong location by accident and then demolished the whole thing again on a whim? I sure have... "OOPS! Sorry about dropping that starport on top of your village! Silly me... wrong planet."

To us those things are normal, boring even. But if you think any of that is considered normal by the average people on the planets I'd like to know what strange land you came from. Capsuleers and people are held to very different standards. And capsuleers have many more privileges. You can pretend otherwise, but that won't make it any less true. We are many things, good and bad. But normal is the one thing we aren't anymore.

Originally by: Diana Kim
Everything that makes us different is the illusion of immortality, the illusion that makes you feel yourself as 'demi-god'. But in fact, we are still the same particles of star dust, that will live its age and eventually burn out, as everything else.


I think that the power you were given deserves a little more appreciation. Our bodies can be turned into dust, yes. It would be silly if I pretended otherwise as I have already "died" several times. But our essence is not so easily vanquished. I will live forever, and even if this world won't let me then I will do so in the next.


Pages: 1 2 [3]

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only