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Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.20 22:18:00 - [31]
 

Edited by: Raze Valadeus on 20/07/2011 22:20:50
Originally by: Ugleb
Originally by: Diana Kim
I see how you feel to your enslaved brethren. Feel the same to those who work with you, and you will understand our corporations. That's how tribes meant to be organized too, and that's what you should fight for. But your people are obsessed with freedom and slavery too much. Slavery is just inefficient management scheme, many amarrians understand it, and even Empress herself made first step to reforming it. And the freedom... freedom is just a void. Do not let it consume your soul.


Sarum made savvy political move, not one born out of humanitarian interest or a desire for reform. She released that part of the slave population furthest removed from its Minmatar heritage, only those from families that had lived out generation upon generation knowing nothing but life under the Amarr.

At a time when the free Minmatar were prepared to take a large step forwards in restoring our own cultural identity, Sarum released thousands of Amarrian evangelists back into the Republic, sowing confusion and noise everywhere. It was a masterful move, reinforcing her image as benign saviour of Amarr with one hand while casting another wave of disruption towards her enemies.


I can understand how this perception of the events is rationalized within the Republic. I've heard this argument before, but quite honestly it is merely one perception of the events, a perception already tainted with past prejudices and marred by bitterness.

If the Amarr believe that slavery is a means by which someone is brought into humility before God and therefore able to find the pathway that leads to his will, then it stands to reason that those closest to that goal would be the ones released from slavery. If they released the youngest and least guided among them, they'd be betraying their own purpose in practicing it to begin with.

The Empress has publicly declared that she believes the age of slavery is coming to an end. "The age of slavery" implies all of it, not just a political maneuver to dump a handful of slaves off outside of the Empire to appease the masses and then move on. Add to that fact that her emancipation of the ninth generation and older slaves was met with hostility and controversy both from within and without the Empire, if she was attempting a political maneuver, this would be a very, very bad way to go about doing so.

It's a well-known fact that I do not practice slavery, nor do I condone it's practice, but to continue to claim that any effort made by the Empire or the Empress is nothing more than cunning political maneuvers and feints is not only an ignorant, propagated view, it is counter-intuitive to progressing toward a better future; both for the Empire and the Republic.

Isn't a better future for the Matari what you're working for? Stop hindering progress in that direction by slapping the efforts toward progression.

Ugleb
Minmatar
Sarz'na Khumatari
Ushra'Khan
Posted - 2011.07.21 16:58:00 - [32]
 

Originally by: Raze Valadeus
It's a well-known fact that I do not practice slavery, nor do I condone it's practice, but to continue to claim that any effort made by the Empire or the Empress is nothing more than cunning political maneuvers and feints is not only an ignorant, propagated view, it is counter-intuitive to progressing toward a better future; both for the Empire and the Republic.

Isn't a better future for the Matari what you're working for? Stop hindering progress in that direction by slapping the efforts toward progression.


I am prepared to acknowledge acts that I believe to be genuine in intent, but I do not believe that particular act was meant as an 'olive branch'.

This empress is the same one that created the 24th Imperial Crusade and declared the reclaiming against Minmatar. Not a simple defensive force such as the Federal Defence Union or State Protectorate, and that bears considerable weight. Her mandate is an offensive one, not a defence.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.21 23:11:00 - [33]
 

"Her" mandate is reflective of our Holy Mandate to Reclaim all that is God's (which is all creation.)

I should also note that Imperial Law currently forbids the influx of new slaves apart from criminals signed over to slavery (as a way of social rehabilitation and reform) and occasionally prisoners of war (my understanding that this latter one is only used if that POW is also guilty of non-military criminal acts.)

The restrictions on the influx of new slaves remains in line with her declaration that the age of slavery is coming to an end. The 24th Imperial Crusade is to keep us in line with our Holy Mandate to bring all of God's creation into his will and service. (Notice that this mandate does not expressly indicate doing so through slavery, and the current restrictions on slavery keep the Crusade limited to actual conquest, not slavery.)

Imperial conquest aside, the issue of slavery is being addressed and improving.

Mizhara Del'thul
Minmatar
Lutinari Syndicate
Electus Matari
Posted - 2011.07.22 02:29:00 - [34]
 

And by the time the 'issue' is addressed... there won't be any of our people left in slavery. There'll only be Amarrians carrying our blood.

The actions of your Empress are clear enough. The Empire remains a threat, no matter the justifications, no matter the 'laws' on slavery. It doesn't really matter whether a reclaiming is a war for territory, slaves, religious evangelism or anything else... it's a threat to those who wish to stand on their own two feet. Should she free every last one of the slaves today, it wouldn't matter at all as long as the Empire seeks 'reclaiming'. There's only one path that could ever lead to peace... the end of all enslavement of Matari, and the end of all military aggression from the Empire. Stay within your own damned borders and you can do whatever the hell you want. Within our borders... all you do is ensure that there will be a war.

As for the 'laws' on slavery... well... I'm willing to bet I'm not the only one who's taken on Amarrian Fleets within Tribe space, enslaving our people. The laws aren't followed, even by your own fleets, Amarrian. If you seek confirmation, I'll bet I can go out and get recordings of Empire Navies protecting slaver vessels within our space within a day.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.22 02:57:00 - [35]
 

Originally by: Mizhara Del'thul
And by the time the 'issue' is addressed... there won't be any of our people left in slavery. There'll only be Amarrians carrying our blood.


This perspective aids in continuing aggression and war. Yes, the process takes time, but the fact is that we are addressing it, and there are plenty of us trying to make things better. Yet our efforts are continually assaulted, berated, ostracized, and even mocked by the very people who should be recognizing and commending every step toward progression. Yourself included.

Originally by: Mizhara Del'thul

The actions of your Empress are clear enough. The Empire remains a threat, no matter the justifications, no matter the 'laws' on slavery. It doesn't really matter whether a reclaiming is a war for territory, slaves, religious evangelism or anything else... it's a threat to those who wish to stand on their own two feet. Should she free every last one of the slaves today, it wouldn't matter at all as long as the Empire seeks 'reclaiming'. There's only one path that could ever lead to peace... the end of all enslavement of Matari, and the end of all military aggression from the Empire. Stay within your own damned borders and you can do whatever the hell you want. Within our borders... all you do is ensure that there will be a war.


Your ultimatum is entirely one-sided and fails to recognize the continued aggression by your own people. The path of peace requires actions from both sides, not just one. I agree that as long as the Empire seeks conquest, there is little hope for a peaceful resolution apart from one side overtaking the other and hopefully managing an equal coexistence from there. I have not, nor will I ever deny that.

The "one path to peace" you proclaim is the only path is incomplete. The Matari would also have to cease aggression against the Empire and no matter what you might wish to retort with, several Matari have declared that they will never stop attacking the Empire until it is burned to ashes. Not the freeing of slaves, not the ceasing of aggression from the Empire - the absolute and complete destruction of the Empire is the condition under which they will cease hostilities. This sort of view point does not and will not lead to peace. Peace is a two way street.

Originally by: Mizhara Del'thul

As for the 'laws' on slavery... well... I'm willing to bet I'm not the only one who's taken on Amarrian Fleets within Tribe space, enslaving our people. The laws aren't followed, even by your own fleets, Amarrian. If you seek confirmation, I'll bet I can go out and get recordings of Empire Navies protecting slaver vessels within our space within a day.


There will always be those operating outside of the law in every government and nation. I will not point out to you the criminal elements prevalent within the Republic, I am sure you are quite intelligent enough to recognize them for yourself. However, I will also not hold you to account for every terrorist or criminal activity performed by Matari or by anyone wearing the colors and insignia of the Republic because they are not always operating within your laws or with your approval.

You have no reason to respond to me with hostility, I've issued none toward you.

Adeli Bosboger
Posted - 2011.07.22 03:05:00 - [36]
 

Edited by: Adeli Bosboger on 22/07/2011 11:35:34
Originally by: Raze Valadeus
"Her" mandate is reflective of our Holy Mandate to Reclaim all that is God's (which is all creation.)


Then we all may as well be slaves.

Originally by: Mizhara Del'thul
And by the time the 'issue' is addressed... there won't be any of our people left in slavery. There'll only be Amarrians carrying our blood.

The actions of your Empress are clear enough. The Empire remains a threat, no matter the justifications, no matter the 'laws' on slavery. It doesn't really matter whether a reclaiming is a war for territory, slaves, religious evangelism or anything else... it's a threat to those who wish to stand on their own two feet. Should she free every last one of the slaves today, it wouldn't matter at all as long as the Empire seeks 'reclaiming'. There's only one path that could ever lead to peace... the end of all enslavement of Matari, and the end of all military aggression from the Empire. Stay within your own damned borders and you can do whatever the hell you want. Within our borders... all you do is ensure that there will be a war.

As for the 'laws' on slavery... well... I'm willing to bet I'm not the only one who's taken on Amarrian Fleets within Tribe space, enslaving our people. The laws aren't followed, even by your own fleets, Amarrian. If you seek confirmation, I'll bet I can go out and get recordings of Empire Navies protecting slaver vessels within our space within a day.


Several of the responses I've received seem to raise the notion that I'm somehow not Matari if I'm to hesitate before joining this war. This is something I resent, as if my people are indeed only themselves if they adhere to blind obedience without question, then who's to say we're so different from our enemies? In any case, it's the reason I'm currently in Caldari space.

But Del'thul here is right. Maybe, given my political ideals, I'd be happier in the State. And my moral compass agrees with the plight of the Caldari over that of the Gallente, for sure. But the difference here is that both the Caldari and Gallente, each with their many faults, are reasonable and rational thinkers. Eventually they will come to terms, and eventually their war will end.

I can't believe the same will ever happen in the case of the Amarr. The notion of divine right is a horribly dangerous thing - a true disease of the mind. If they believe all of creation is destined to be under their rule, then my fight really does belong at home. I respect the Caldari, and I've been shown great hospitality by them. I don't really like the idea of meeting them on the field, but I have to keep it in mind now that 'all creation' includes them, too. One of these days, when all other foes are vanquished, their 'friends' will surely want them, too, to attend mass.

I hope my future comrades in the TLF will forgive my misgivings. I'll be amongst their ranks inside the day.

Thank you for your offer, Mr. Vikarion, but it's time for me to go home. I'm sure you understand.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.22 03:14:00 - [37]
 

Edited by: Raze Valadeus on 22/07/2011 03:14:10
I am pleased to see that you have found a path and purpose, Captain Bosboger. As much as I am saddened to see that your decision puts us on opposite ends of the battlefield, I would not wish uncertainty and doubt upon anyone.

May you always find strength in your resolve and not forsake wisdom in your path.

Markius TheShed
Minmatar
Murientor Tribe
Posted - 2011.07.22 10:03:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Adeli Bosboger


I hope my future comrades in the TLF will forgive my misgivings. I'll be amongst their ranks inside the day.



Welcome to the fight, You have made the right choice all Minmatar much stand together with our Gallente allies to stop us all from being `Reclaimed'

Adeli Bosboger
Posted - 2011.07.22 11:33:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Raze Valadeus
Edited by: Raze Valadeus on 22/07/2011 03:14:10
I am pleased to see that you have found a path and purpose, Captain Bosboger. As much as I am saddened to see that your decision puts us on opposite ends of the battlefield, I would not wish uncertainty and doubt upon anyone.

May you always find strength in your resolve and not forsake wisdom in your path.


Many thanks, Captain Valadeus. While I may resent what you stand for, I like to think that were there more Amarr with your level head and empathy, perhaps such a battlefield wouldn't have had to exist to begin with.

Raze Valadeus
Amarr
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.22 12:05:00 - [40]
 

Reviewing what I stated above, I feel I need to clarify something and I regret that I did not have the clarity to state it before.

There are many of us, myself included, who believe that the "Reclamation" can be fulfilled through peace, not just through conquest. I will use a theoretical as an example.

Theoretically speaking, let us say that peace was finally found between the Amarr and the Minmatar. We could continue to evangelize, teach, and live as examples of righteousness (righteousness being defined as living within the will of God and for his purpose, not as a moral superiority). In so doing, we continue to teach the words of truth from the Scriptures and continue to lead those seeking to God.

This does not require slavery or conquest and still accomplishes the calling to bring as many as we are able before God. It is my sincere belief that this is possible and it is what I continue to fight for. There are those who will disagree with me, but such is the way of life, unfortunately.


Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.22 13:22:00 - [41]
 

Originally by: Adeli Bosboger
I like to think that were there more Amarr with your level head and empathy, perhaps such a battlefield wouldn't have had to exist to begin with.


This only works in both ways.

Odelya d'Hanguest
ZERO HEAVY INDUSTRIES
Posted - 2011.07.22 23:54:00 - [42]
 

Oh come on, ‘Second-thought Adeli’! Join the Knighthood of the Merciful Crown—then you’ll neither serve yourself nor others!

Vikarion
Caldari
State Trade Consortium
Posted - 2011.07.23 04:08:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Adeli Bosboger
Thank you for your offer, Mr. Vikarion, but it's time for me to go home. I'm sure you understand.


A pity. I had been working something out for you. As it is, I'll make sure you are instructed as to the wisdom of being duplicitous.

It seems that the Matari are ever eager to bite the hand of a prospective friend.

Vikarion
Caldari
State Trade Consortium
Posted - 2011.07.23 04:14:00 - [44]
 

Originally by: Markius TheShed
Welcome to the fight, You have made the right choice all Minmatar much stand together with our Gallente allies to stop us all from being `Reclaimed'


You already have been. It just wasn't by the Amarr.

Or do you think that the Federation offers you aid out of the goodness of its heart? You are their fiefdom, their little pets, mewling for succor in the nest of the black eagle. Your traditions, tribes, customs, and laws are daily eroded by their cultural domination of your young men and women. Already nearly a third of Minmatar live by Federation law and according to Federation custom, and why do you think that is?

The Federation needs and wants Minmatar maids, Minmatar janitors, Minmatar prostitutes, and Minmatar soldiers. Minmatar cannon fodder. Why? Because they dislike risking Gallente necks where tribal "barbarian" necks will do. Do you think I lie?

Why do you think we rebelled?

You are still slaves. But your chains now are made of dependence, flattery, and false friendship. Much stronger chains. At least the Amarr, threat that they are, are honest.

Commander Dirtbag
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.23 04:43:00 - [45]
 

Sooo....

You're Minmatar and you're wondering whom to serve rather than how to make your own way. Fitting.

This is why the Minmatar were enslaved in the first place. They are a race of chattel. Like children and we, the Amarr, are your parents, your benevolent masters. Come back into the fold, lost soul, and bask in the warm light of God's lasers.

You want to know whom to serve? You may serve me.

Your loving master,
Commander Dirtbag Very Happy

Adeli Bosboger
Posted - 2011.07.23 05:44:00 - [46]
 

Originally by: Vikarion
Originally by: Markius TheShed
Welcome to the fight, You have made the right choice all Minmatar much stand together with our Gallente allies to stop us all from being `Reclaimed'


You already have been. It just wasn't by the Amarr.

Or do you think that the Federation offers you aid out of the goodness of its heart? You are their fiefdom, their little pets, mewling for succor in the nest of the black eagle. Your traditions, tribes, customs, and laws are daily eroded by their cultural domination of your young men and women. Already nearly a third of Minmatar live by Federation law and according to Federation custom, and why do you think that is?

The Federation needs and wants Minmatar maids, Minmatar janitors, Minmatar prostitutes, and Minmatar soldiers. Minmatar cannon fodder. Why? Because they dislike risking Gallente necks where tribal "barbarian" necks will do. Do you think I lie?

Why do you think we rebelled?

You are still slaves. But your chains now are made of dependence, flattery, and false friendship. Much stronger chains. At least the Amarr, threat that they are, are honest.


Believe me when I say I'm at the Gallente's side because they are the lesser of two evils. I don't disagree on any particular point you raised. I don't respect them, and their exaltation of Noir's 'sacrifice' is nothing short of sickening. You of all people know I have far more of a soft spot for the Caldari than our so-called benefactors. But in the face of the galactic manifest destiny held by the Amarr, they're the lesser worry.

That's the only reason I'm taking this road - rather than your offer - Captain Vikarion. No offense was ever intended. Hopefully, my service (along with the war) won't be forever. I hope there's some way I can be of service in the future, if need be. Very few extended a hand to me in all this, and I don't like leaving a favour unpaid.

Adeli Bosboger
Posted - 2011.07.23 05:46:00 - [47]
 

Originally by: Commander Dirtbag
Sooo....

You're Minmatar and you're wondering whom to serve rather than how to make your own way. Fitting.

This is why the Minmatar were enslaved in the first place. They are a race of chattel. Like children and we, the Amarr, are your parents, your benevolent masters. Come back into the fold, lost soul, and bask in the warm light of God's lasers.

You want to know whom to serve? You may serve me.

Your loving master,
Commander Dirtbag Very Happy


I'd rather serve my superiors than serve a book.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.23 13:20:00 - [48]
 

One must be a little confused to serve a book.

Ava Starfire
Minmatar
Teraa Matar
Posted - 2011.07.23 20:44:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Lyn Farel
One must be a little confused to serve a book.


Oh, you can say that again...

Lando Storm
Center for Advanced Studies
Posted - 2011.07.23 23:34:00 - [50]
 

Why do you need to serve some one or some organization? that is the real question.




Van Cleef
Caldari
Caldari Independent Navy Reserve
The Fourth District
Posted - 2011.07.24 00:00:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Andreus Ixiris
A successful capsuleer serves in this order:

1. First, serve yourself.
2. Second, serve your corporation.
3. Thirdly, serve those to whom your corporation pays loyalty.

When interests conflict, choose the side that is highest in the heirarchy. Aim to minimise conflicts of interest.


That is a very Gallente way of looking at things.

Adeli Bosboger
Posted - 2011.07.24 00:49:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Lando Storm
Why do you need to serve some one or some organization? that is the real question.






Well, some of us just weren't built to lead people. Having never left your place of education, I'm sure you're familiar with the notion.

Aquila Shadow
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.24 07:59:00 - [53]
 

Originally by: Markius TheShed
So your first thought is to join the Caldari instead of the Gallente?

The Caldari are currently occupying the Gallente system of Harroule, In a bid to increase their corporate power and wealth at the cost of the death of millions of civilians caught in the cross fire. Caldari bragging






Like you said, in war casualties are unavoidable.

Leopold Caine
Amarr
Stillwater Corporation
Posted - 2011.07.24 12:30:00 - [54]
 

Young mr. Bosboger seemed rather promising at first.
Pity the Shakorite propaganda took another one of its victims.

Seriphyn Inhonores
Gallente
Eleutherian Guard
Posted - 2011.07.24 12:42:00 - [55]
 

It seems I'm given the task of reminding capsuleers that one-third of all Federation citizens are of Minmatar ethnicity, excluding the segment of ethnic Gallenteans who are descended from immigrants.

If you pledged allegiance to the Caldari State, you would be aligning yourself against your fellow people who are at the forefront of this conflict. Never mind the fact that you are not Caldari to begin with, and to do so without being of their ethnic origin, would involve you obliterating your previous culture, practices and traditions. "When in Caldari..."

You might also be aware of the Caldari State's support for slavery by their alliance with the Amarr Empire.

So, all in all, good choice that you aligned yourself with the Tribal Liberation Force. Yes, the Caldari uphold a culture of honour, duty and respect. So, you are doing the right thing by upholding duty to your own country, not a foreign one. I'm sure any Caldari can appreciate that.

Lyn Farel
Knighthood of the Merciful Crown
Posted - 2011.07.24 13:21:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Ava Starfire
Originally by: Lyn Farel
One must be a little confused to serve a book.


Oh, you can say that again...


Why ? It is pointless to say the same thing several times.

Diana Kim
Caldari
Wolfsbrigade
Posted - 2011.07.24 16:01:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Seriphyn Inhonores
You might also be aware of the Caldari State's support for slavery by their alliance with the Amarr Empire.


Yeah, r-right, also we enslave gallentes and sell them to jovians in exchange to super-death-ray weapons.

But... do you really think so? Don't you know that slavery is prohibited in the State?

Well, what can I say. I am fighting with Amarr Empire already for several days, and, you know, nobody loaded my ship with slaves, nobody asked me to get a slave or to do anything related to slavery at all.

This slavery issue is internal Amarr problem, and they will deal with it themselves, without us or... YOU telling them what to do. They have ancient and beauty culture and they are very conservative. It is very hard to them to go against their traditions, thus it is simply impossible for them to just get rid of slavery because, for example, another dunderhead gallente senator told them to do so.

Being true ally means you must help others with what they ask, not with what you want to change in them, like your kind used to do, like you did with Intaki, Minmatar and Mannar, and tried to do with us.

Support for slavery. Yeah. We should meet someday and talk one-to-one, because I need new jovian super-death-ray weapon.

Commander Dirtbag
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.25 03:22:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Adeli Bosboger
Originally by: Commander Dirtbag
Sooo....

You're Minmatar and you're wondering whom to serve rather than how to make your own way. Fitting.

This is why the Minmatar were enslaved in the first place. They are a race of chattel. Like children and we, the Amarr, are your parents, your benevolent masters. Come back into the fold, lost soul, and bask in the warm light of God's lasers.

You want to know whom to serve? You may serve me.

Your loving master,
Commander Dirtbag Very Happy


I'd rather serve my superiors than serve a book.


We ARE your superiors.

Commander Dirtbag
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.25 03:30:00 - [59]
 

Originally by: Lando Storm
Why do you need to serve some one or some organization? that is the real question.






Because he's Minmatar. They are a docile species of livestock, incapable of initiative or independent thought. They're basically cows and should be treated as such. Milk them until they are ready to be slaughtered.

Dirtbag

Commander Dirtbag
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.25 03:43:00 - [60]
 

Originally by: Diana Kim


This slavery issue is internal Amarr problem, and they will deal with it themselves, without us or... YOU telling them what to do. They have ancient and beauty culture and they are very conservative. It is very hard to them to go against their traditions, thus it is simply impossible for them to just get rid of slavery because, for example, another dunderhead gallente senator told them to do so.



We appreciate our Caldari allies in our struggle to spread the Truth across New Eden. o7

The slavery issue has already been dealt with in the Empire. We clothe, feed, and shelter the Minmatar like we would any other livestock. All we ask in return is that they tend our fields, work our factories, and man our lasers. Is that really so much to ask after all we've done for them? I think not.

Dirtbag


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