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Zirse
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.07.28 20:00:00 - [31]
 

Originally by: Killer Gandry
Originally by: Nimrod Nemesis
and be damned sure they're good at e-politics.


Thank you for making me smile.
Actually roar with laughter.

Looking at the current " representatives " I can say that being good at e-politics is the last thing one can say of them.



Say what you will about the Mittani, but he has pretty much won EVE politics.

People who don't know very much about EVE like to spout off about the nullsec block of sheep voting for their alliance leader overlords. But each one of those sheep is a real person (with 5 or 6 accounts most likely) who is genuinely interested in nullsec affairs and on average, far more organized than the average high-sec dweller. Voting for an alliance leader doesn't make a nullsec player any less of an individual, just a smarter, self-interested one.

Nullsec needs to offer a far more gratifying reward than high-sec, that's the risk vs reward mentality of EVE. The fact that players congregate into large blocs to mitigate that risk is the natural outcome of our species' politcal nature.

Why shouldn't these large alliances of people, who are forced to work together in a game where trust is nigh impossible be given greater access to resources than a person who logs in for a few hours a week to play a single player game?


Nimrod Nemesis
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2011.07.28 20:30:00 - [32]
 

Edited by: Nimrod Nemesis on 28/07/2011 20:30:30
Originally by: Killer Gandry
Originally by: Nimrod Nemesis
and be damned sure they're good at e-politics.


Thank you for making me smile.
Actually roar with laughter.

Looking at the current " representatives " I can say that being good at e-politics is the last thing one can say of them.



The current reps were elected by voting blocks at the alliance/coalition level so their need to politik is not as dire as someone who's representing a veritable hoard of un-related mission runners, miners, traders, industrialist, suicide gankers, wardecers, explorers, and whatever else the highsec carebears do. I wouldn't go so far as to say they're politically inept, Mittens seems to have a much larger fan-base than just GS and co. evidenced by the fact he got many more votes than were cast by his constituents.

But yes, any rep. for the squalid masses is going to need massive e-political clout on the level of Chribba to even begin to draw out the numbers needed to compete with nullsec blocks. Since I more often than not find myself agreeing with the alliance reps I don't really care if this happens or not, but i'm really skeptical of anyone who suggests it could happen.

Jaxon Grylls
Posted - 2011.07.28 20:42:00 - [33]
 

Originally by: Nimrod Nemesis
Edited by: Nimrod Nemesis on 28/07/2011 17:19:31
A "credible," highsec candidate would have to be campeigning long before anyone else due to the fact he or she would essentially be rallying a playerbase that is incredibly diverse, lazy, and fearful.

Hazarding a glance at the "highsec," forum names that would have a shot at garnering such support I don't see anyone who's game to do it. So if you want your opinions better represented and you're tired of our 0.0 politics hogging the show, I suggest you get out there and find a candidate who's willing to take on this task and be damned sure they're good at e-politics.


Well if you had bothered to read the whole thread it may have given you a clue that this is what it is all about. I'm not saying that getting hisec organised behind a slate of credible candidates is going to be easy. It is true that the people in hisec are individualistic in temperament and not easy to organise. I refute your implication that we are "lazy, and fearful." The "socialistic" nature of 0.0 is not something that appeals to me and I suspect many others. Why work for the priviledge of fitting someone else out with a Titan?

No, the contempt and disdain that it obvious in the utterances of people connected with 0.0 seems to me to be a more than convincing argument for getting a counterweight to the self-serving attitude of the 0.0 representatives on the current CSM. Anyone wanting to contact me in game is more than welcome. This is going to be hard to pull off, but it needs to be done for the sake of the game.

Zirse
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.07.28 20:48:00 - [34]
 

Edited by: Zirse on 28/07/2011 20:48:09
Originally by: Jaxon Grylls
Originally by: Nimrod Nemesis
Edited by: Nimrod Nemesis on 28/07/2011 17:19:31
A "credible," highsec candidate would have to be campeigning long before anyone else due to the fact he or she would essentially be rallying a playerbase that is incredibly diverse, lazy, and fearful.

Hazarding a glance at the "highsec," forum names that would have a shot at garnering such support I don't see anyone who's game to do it. So if you want your opinions better represented and you're tired of our 0.0 politics hogging the show, I suggest you get out there and find a candidate who's willing to take on this task and be damned sure they're good at e-politics.



Well if you had bothered to read the whole thread it may have given you a clue that this is what it is all about. I'm not saying that getting hisec organised behind a slate of credible candidates is going to be easy. It is true that the people in hisec are individualistic in temperament and not easy to organise. I refute your implication that we are "lazy, and fearful." The "socialistic" nature of 0.0 is not something that appeals to me and I suspect many others. Why work for the priviledge of fitting someone else out with a Titan?

No, the contempt and disdain that it obvious in the utterances of people connected with 0.0 seems to me to be a more than convincing argument for getting a counterweight to the self-serving attitude of the 0.0 representatives on the current CSM. Anyone wanting to contact me in game is more than welcome. This is going to be hard to pull off, but it needs to be done for the sake of the game.


Look out nullsec, Jaxon Grylls is on the case.

Gaylord Buttafuko
Posted - 2011.07.28 22:26:00 - [35]
 

Is that kinda like Bear Grylls, but in highsex?

Nimrod Nemesis
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2011.07.28 22:46:00 - [36]
 

Originally by: Jaxon Grylls

Well if you had bothered to read the whole thread it may have given you a clue that this is what it is all about. I'm not saying that getting hisec organised behind a slate of credible candidates is going to be easy. It is true that the people in hisec are individualistic in temperament and not easy to organise. I refute your implication that we are "lazy, and fearful." The "socialistic" nature of 0.0 is not something that appeals to me and I suspect many others. Why work for the priviledge of fitting someone else out with a Titan?

No, the contempt and disdain that it obvious in the utterances of people connected with 0.0 seems to me to be a more than convincing argument for getting a counterweight to the self-serving attitude of the 0.0 representatives on the current CSM. Anyone wanting to contact me in game is more than welcome. This is going to be hard to pull off, but it needs to be done for the sake of the game.


Good luck with that. If being "social," doesn't appeal to you though, i'm almost certain you're off to a poor start. Of course, stranger people have been elected. Laughing

Killer Gandry
Caldari
Shadow of the Pain
Posted - 2011.07.28 23:28:00 - [37]
 

Originally by: Zirse

People who don't know very much about EVE like to spout off about the nullsec block of sheep voting for their alliance leader overlords. But each one of those sheep is a real person (with 5 or 6 accounts most likely) who is genuinely interested in nullsec affairs and on average, far more organized than the average high-sec dweller. Voting for an alliance leader doesn't make a nullsec player any less of an individual, just a smarter, self-interested one.

Nullsec needs to offer a far more gratifying reward than high-sec, that's the risk vs reward mentality of EVE. The fact that players congregate into large blocs to mitigate that risk is the natural outcome of our species' politcal nature.

Why shouldn't these large alliances of people, who are forced to work together in a game where trust is nigh impossible be given greater access to resources than a person who logs in for a few hours a week to play a single player game?




I am fairly certain I roamed null sec before Mittens even thought about starting in EVE.
I have done about anything EVE has to offer, from missionrunning to sov war, small PvP, solo PvP, industry in all aspects, trade etc.

The null sec players however have to realise that they can nerf high sec to hell but that will mean they will nerf their 0.0 game too, since high sec can't exist without null sec and visa versa.

Null sec messed up a lot of the null sec life themselves but instead at looking how they themselves fecked things up it's easier to point in other directions.
CCP made it possible to blue a lot of other alliances and corporations so they blue eachother to death in a few big coalitions and then they cry that 0.0 becomes stagnant.

There are enough options to increase a commercial infrastructure in null sec, but the very nature of null sec dwellers messes that up for themselves.

Ow and yes you can look at my KB stats and find them wanting a lot, but guess what, those stats mean jack cause they tell only a small insignificant part of the whole picture.

Zirse
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.07.28 23:36:00 - [38]
 

Originally by: Killer Gandry
Originally by: Zirse

People who don't know very much about EVE like to spout off about the nullsec block of sheep voting for their alliance leader overlords. But each one of those sheep is a real person (with 5 or 6 accounts most likely) who is genuinely interested in nullsec affairs and on average, far more organized than the average high-sec dweller. Voting for an alliance leader doesn't make a nullsec player any less of an individual, just a smarter, self-interested one.

Nullsec needs to offer a far more gratifying reward than high-sec, that's the risk vs reward mentality of EVE. The fact that players congregate into large blocs to mitigate that risk is the natural outcome of our species' politcal nature.

Why shouldn't these large alliances of people, who are forced to work together in a game where trust is nigh impossible be given greater access to resources than a person who logs in for a few hours a week to play a single player game?




I am fairly certain I roamed null sec before Mittens even thought about starting in EVE.
I have done about anything EVE has to offer, from missionrunning to sov war, small PvP, solo PvP, industry in all aspects, trade etc.

The null sec players however have to realise that they can nerf high sec to hell but that will mean they will nerf their 0.0 game too, since high sec can't exist without null sec and visa versa.

Null sec messed up a lot of the null sec life themselves but instead at looking how they themselves fecked things up it's easier to point in other directions.
CCP made it possible to blue a lot of other alliances and corporations so they blue eachother to death in a few big coalitions and then they cry that 0.0 becomes stagnant.

There are enough options to increase a commercial infrastructure in null sec, but the very nature of null sec dwellers messes that up for themselves.

Ow and yes you can look at my KB stats and find them wanting a lot, but guess what, those stats mean jack cause they tell only a small insignificant part of the whole picture.



Go read up on Game Theory and come back when your done.

Alliance bloc proliferation is unavoidable in a sandbox, especially as the game grows.

Killer Gandry
Caldari
Shadow of the Pain
Posted - 2011.07.29 10:23:00 - [39]
 

Originally by: Zirse
[Go read up on Game Theory and come back when your done.

Alliance bloc proliferation is unavoidable in a sandbox, especially as the game grows.


You should stick to theory then because most 0.0 nubs have the faintest clue about reality.
Sadly enough most high sec nubs know just as much.

The fact is that most problems that exsist in EVE currently are player driven.

Zirse
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.07.29 16:56:00 - [40]
 

Originally by: Killer Gandry
Originally by: Zirse
[Go read up on Game Theory and come back when your done.

Alliance bloc proliferation is unavoidable in a sandbox, especially as the game grows.

The fact is that most problems that exsist in EVE currently are player driven.



Exactly my point. Player driven and inevitable. Nullsec exists in a realist paradigm, where alliance continuance relies on doing what it takes to win rather than what is 'fun.'

Next time I promise to yield to the mighty intellect of Killer Gandry.


Killer Gandry
Caldari
Shadow of the Pain
Posted - 2011.07.29 17:42:00 - [41]
 

Did you study to get this dimwitted or did it all come natural?

Seems if I talk to you like your Mitty does it might get through your thick skull.

People in nullsec dug their own problems and now they want high sec and CCP to undig them.
That is the reality of null sec.

Super Chair
Caldari
Hell's Revenge
Posted - 2011.07.29 18:20:00 - [42]
 

Just dont vote for nullsec players for CSM unless theyve previously served on the CSM and proven to be level headed people after good game design, not e-tards who think CSM is just a joke and a means to further along their alliances nullsec agenda and make money off RMT. Chances are a highsec player will be more level headed than this CSM.

Zirse
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.07.29 21:41:00 - [43]
 

Originally by: Killer Gandry
Did you study to get this dimwitted or did it all come natural?

Seems if I talk to you like your Mitty does it might get through your thick skull.

People in nullsec dug their own problems and now they want high sec and CCP to undig them.
That is the reality of null sec.



Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

I can't even insult you because you fail so miserably at logic. What are you even trying to say?

Gwen Bailen
Posted - 2011.07.29 22:02:00 - [44]
 

As long as "votes" are based on forums/reading login news - there will never be a representative part of Eve's player base.

The day you get a popup "Do you want this? YAY/NO?", its democratic, but don't ever think Eve was ever anything but major powerblocks running the game.

CSM is voted in by 90% of the people who have an agenda. Its like real world politics.
It's not representative, and it's aparently what CCP wants.

Only whine is, you pay $15 to the powerblocks.

Nimrod Nemesis
Amarr
Royal Amarr Institute
Posted - 2011.07.30 02:16:00 - [45]
 

Originally by: Gwen Bailen
The day you get a popup "Do you want this? YAY/NO?", its democratic, but don't ever think Eve was ever anything but major powerblocks running the game.


So I take it you're new then?


Zirse
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.07.30 02:32:00 - [46]
 


EVERYONE CAN VOTE

Nowehere in the rulebook are non-nullsec players restricted from voting. The CSM has long been ignored by nullsec, to the point that the one one prior to this one was so unabashedly unrepresentative of nullsec that we as players organized to play a bigger role on this CSM.

Use this as an opportunity to rally yourselves and perhaps collectively wet your little carebear panties on the next CSM. Or don't, I don't care.

Killer Gandry
Caldari
Shadow of the Pain
Posted - 2011.07.30 10:03:00 - [47]
 

For someone who doesn't care you attempt to be very vocal.

Zirse
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.07.30 14:58:00 - [48]
 

Originally by: Killer Gandry
For someone who doesn't care you attempt to be very vocal.



Just tired of the level of stupid.

Jaxon Grylls
Posted - 2011.08.01 21:22:00 - [49]
 

Originally by: Andski

What, you think the CSM's purpose is to represent the playerbase?

Ha.

CSM members represent their constituents, not the playerbase as a whole. dealwizit~


No, that's been made perfectly plain. Just the vested interests you are involved with.

But I'm glad to have it from the horse's mouth.

Might make the job of booting you lot out at the next CSM election easier.

Andski
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.02 03:01:00 - [50]
 

Originally by: Jaxon Grylls
Originally by: Andski

What, you think the CSM's purpose is to represent the playerbase?

Ha.

CSM members represent their constituents, not the playerbase as a whole. dealwizit~


No, that's been made perfectly plain. Just the vested interests you are involved with.

But I'm glad to have it from the horse's mouth.

Might make the job of booting you lot out at the next CSM election easier.


heh, entitlement complex

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2011.08.03 06:12:00 - [51]
 

Originally by: Oooooh Aaaaah
Edited by: Oooooh Aaaaah on 19/07/2011 14:29:34
@Franz: I (personally) am not annoyed with highsec carebears, nor do I have an interest in ganking noobs or getting them into null-sec - it's the old players living in high-sec.
There seems to be a problem from a game design-perspective. CCP had a natural progression in mind - of course you can go to 0.0 when you're 2 hours old, but taking a pve/pvp career as an example for the majority, it's learning to fly lvl 4 in a BS, do that for a while, make enough money so a BS loss doesn't hurt you anymore, get bored of it and then move on to 'higher level content'.

And there's the 'problem' (I don't really have a problem with that as long they don't complain about the lack of higher level content when it's in front of their noses and called 0.0) - some never make that transition and that's probably because high sec is too comfortable for them compared to null-sec.

Obviously, this needs changing - similar to EAF's - if a frigate is flown by even less people than titans or black ops, there must be something wrong with it compared to all the other ships. If a majority of players never moves out of highsec, there must be something wrong with low-sec/0.0.

It's *not* so "obvious" that this needs changing. There are many reasons why someone might not move out to 0.0 having nothing to do with "being a care-bear". Some people just can't take eve so serious as to commit to 0.0. Some find it hard to *care* what happens to 2500 other people they have no connection to. Some get mistreated in 0.0 corps and don't bother going back. How many times has it come up (here and elsewhere) "XYZ Corp doesn't do **** for the alliance - they never fly pvp!" When, in fact, they mine/invent/build? I've read it on CAOD, Gen. Discussion and Scrapheap (now Failheap). Part of the problem is might be the perception (right or wrong) about the nature of the communities in 0.0...

Originally by: Oooooh Aaaaah
@Cedille: I don't particularly like the 0.0 sov alliances, but currently, the unfair advantage is on high-secs side.
These people conquered their space empires (well - except Goonswarm who had their space donated), they build an infrastructure, pay sov-bills and occasionally defend it. However, they are limited to 1 (expensive) outpost/system, hence have a limited supply of invention slots and so on, they don't even have access to lots of necessary resources (data-cores) - basically everything in 0.0 industry is at such a large disadvantage, everything is imported from high-sec.

I really can't believe that these mega alliances have every moon covered with a moon mining POS, and can't spare the Powergrid/CPU for labs. The 0.0 power blocs *could* have all the invention slots they could use, but for some reason, they don't.

Originally by: Oooooh Aaaaah
Compare that to high-sec: no sovbills, no teamplay, no investment, no buildup, no risk and effort required, ~10 free Stations/System full of production/invention slots.
<snippage>

If you want to stick to yourself, that's perfectly fine, but eve is an MMO and should reward team play, effort and risk. That's fair.

Ugh, I'm tired and I can't devote more thought to this (it's 2:11 a.m.) - I'll be back.

Ammzi
Posted - 2011.08.03 07:16:00 - [52]
 

Originally by: Zirse
But each one of those sheep is a real person (with 5 or 6 accounts most likely) who is genuinely interested in nullsec affairs and on average, far more organized than the average high-sec dweller. Voting for an alliance leader doesn't make a nullsec player any less of an individual, just a smarter, self-interested one.




I would like to call out loudly BULL**** on that statement. More organized? Oh the laughs. You mean endless CTA's and setting your alarm clock?
I have met dozens of x-nullsec players who left due to the massive amount of nullsec-political drama between alliances and within them.

Contrary to popular belief, highsec pilots are very capable of organizing. The incursion runners are a physical daily proof of it.
We organize blacklists, public statements and events for over 1000 incursion runners.
If a future CSM is to support our daily milk and honey then you can easily expect a large group of supporters from incursion runners.

James Duar
Merch Industrial
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.03 08:20:00 - [53]
 

Edited by: James Duar on 03/08/2011 08:21:17
Originally by: Asuri Kinnes
I really can't believe that these mega alliances have every moon covered with a moon mining POS, and can't spare the Powergrid/CPU for labs. The 0.0 power blocs *could* have all the invention slots they could use, but for some reason, they don't.


Are you familiar with the concept of "opportunity cost"?

If it was cheaper to run your own 0.0 invention slots, then people would do that. It isn't, as evidenced by the fact that no one has implemented it on a large scale, which should inform you that, perhaps, it is not fiscally or :effort: viable compared to just jumping to high-sec.

Were it effective, every alliance would do it, since if they did not they would lose their competitive edge against other alliances.

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2011.08.03 15:41:00 - [54]
 

Originally by: James Duar
Edited by: James Duar on 03/08/2011 08:21:17
Originally by: Asuri Kinnes
I really can't believe that these mega alliances have every moon covered with a moon mining POS, and can't spare the Powergrid/CPU for labs. The 0.0 power blocs *could* have all the invention slots they could use, but for some reason, they don't.


Are you familiar with the concept of "opportunity cost"?

If it was cheaper to run your own 0.0 invention slots, then people would do that. It isn't, as evidenced by the fact that no one has implemented it on a large scale, which should inform you that, perhaps, it is not fiscally or :effort: viable compared to just jumping to high-sec.

Were it effective, every alliance would do it, since if they did not they would lose their competitive edge against other alliances.


Why yes, I am familiar with the concept. Go back and read the persons statement that I was replying to. I.E. "these alliances are limited to one station/system, and can't even get invention slots..."

My point was that it can be done other ways and, WH corps do it all the time. No, it's not as easy as hi-sec.

Zirse
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.08.03 16:48:00 - [55]
 

Originally by: James Duar
Edited by: James Duar on 03/08/2011 08:21:17
Originally by: Asuri Kinnes
I really can't believe that these mega alliances have every moon covered with a moon mining POS, and can't spare the Powergrid/CPU for labs. The 0.0 power blocs *could* have all the invention slots they could use, but for some reason, they don't.


Are you familiar with the concept of "opportunity cost"?

If it was cheaper to run your own 0.0 invention slots, then people would do that. It isn't, as evidenced by the fact that no one has implemented it on a large scale, which should inform you that, perhaps, it is not fiscally or :effort: viable compared to just jumping to high-sec.

Were it effective, every alliance would do it, since if they did not they would lose their competitive edge against other alliances.


Research POSes aren't the difficult part. There are plenty of those in every alliance. The problem is the logistics of inventing in null and having to import most of your components, especially datacores.

Kerrisone
Posted - 2011.08.03 22:02:00 - [56]
 

Originally by: Ammzi
Originally by: Zirse
But each one of those sheep is a real person (with 5 or 6 accounts most likely) who is genuinely interested in nullsec affairs and on average, far more organized than the average high-sec dweller. Voting for an alliance leader doesn't make a nullsec player any less of an individual, just a smarter, self-interested one.




I would like to call out loudly BULL**** on that statement. More organized? Oh the laughs. You mean endless CTA's and setting your alarm clock?
I have met dozens of x-nullsec players who left due to the massive amount of nullsec-political drama between alliances and within them.

Contrary to popular belief, highsec pilots are very capable of organizing. The incursion runners are a physical daily proof of it.
We organize blacklists, public statements and events for over 1000 incursion runners.
If a future CSM is to support our daily milk and honey then you can easily expect a large group of supporters from incursion runners.



Then whoever organizes them should have gotten them to vote and maybe we'd have a more balanced CSM or one with more representatives who were more engaged in the game/community. If they all did vote then the statement remains true the larger group of highsec players need to be more organized and connected to their 'game/space' etc to vote for people that best represent them.

By the very nature of highsec people are more apt to be on thier own even if they form corps/alliances they all are not so tied together like in null where you need your friends and know your enemies with centralized leadership to make announcements etc. Highsec is harder to get a message out to 'everyone' as their isn't a pyramid of leadership through corps and alliances that have the vast majority of players in highsec in them.

Jaxon Grylls
Posted - 2011.08.04 09:52:00 - [57]
 

Originally by: Zirse


Exactly my point. Player driven and inevitable. Nullsec exists in a realist paradigm, where alliance continuance relies on doing what it takes to win rather than what is 'fun.'




Then what is the point of playing EVE. I may have got it wrong but I thought EVE was a *GAME* Unless someone is paying you to play of course!

Zirse
Minmatar
Brutor Tribe
Posted - 2011.08.04 18:09:00 - [58]
 

Originally by: Jaxon Grylls
Originally by: Zirse


Exactly my point. Player driven and inevitable. Nullsec exists in a realist paradigm, where alliance continuance relies on doing what it takes to win rather than what is 'fun.'




Then what is the point of playing EVE. I may have got it wrong but I thought EVE was a *GAME* Unless someone is paying you to play of course!


Some parts of EVE are really fun, some parts are not. Try doing nullsec alliance logistics without wanting to take your own life on a nightly basis. But I think we all play this game more for the meta aspect than the actual half-baked space sim. It is fun belonging to an empire, protecting your borders and resources from other players in a persistent universe filled with political intrigue.

I'm not saying there is no room for improvement in nullsec. I think we'd all like to see an incentive for smaller fleet fights, but large ones are fun too.

Poetic Stanziel
Gallente
Macbeth Transport and Freight LLC
Posted - 2011.08.04 19:16:00 - [59]
 


Malcanis
Caldari
Vanishing Point.
The Initiative.
Posted - 2011.08.05 09:04:00 - [60]
 

So insults, hyperbole and poo-flinging apart, we're back to where we started: there are no "hi-sec" representatives on the CSM because no-one running on the "hi-sec" platform had the organisational skills or the motivation to get themselves elected. It's not inherent to the process that "hi-sec" reps dont get elected; Ankhemthingy and Dierdre Vaal both ran on a hi-sec focused platform and got elected. If there was a credible, intelligent candidate who ran on a platform of genuinely reforming hi-sec rather than just BAN GRIEFERS PUT ARKANOR IN 1.0 MISHUNS GIEF X-TYPE L3WTZ NAOW than I'd be quite happy to give them one of my votes.

But at this stage I'm just waiting for someone to make the suggestion that CCP reserve CSM seats for "hi-sec" representatives...


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