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blankseplocked Ignorance is Bliss, A 0.0 Wormhole Comparison.
 
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Digital Messiah
Gallente
N7 Corporation
PandaMonium.
Posted - 2011.07.19 06:21:00 - [151]
 

Originally by: Alu Utukku
Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

How this pic has not turned up in this thread yet, I have no idea.

The basic truths here are:

A number of the members of the CSM are obvious asshats, who wouldn't know a wormhole from the puckered end of an intestine.

The person comparing moving a freighter full of a/b/c out of a c5 after multiple compressions has no idea what the **** this thread is actually about.

That is all.


QFmo'fuggin Truth!!!!!!!!!

Ruiryu
Caldari
Gray Rogue Squadron
Posted - 2011.07.19 06:53:00 - [152]
 

Originally by: Janus Odeo
Edited by: Janus Odeo on 19/07/2011 05:28:00
You said a bunch of stuff... (I wanted more characters to type with)




Anyhow, I never said things were effortless in 0.0 I know they aren't at one time I managed 40 some odd POS towers and 2 out posts spread across 4 regions, I had cyno chains and jump bridges. I know the effort that goes into this; I'm not arguing that fact. But that comes with a lot of added luxuries, and those are just that the jump bridges and cyno chains. But the truth is they make moving through 0.0 insanely easy. Long gone are the days of doing 25 gate jumps, or getting corp mates to set up cyno ships. I'm sure some are still used and gates as well but not to any serious degree when traveling with in "your space"

I went to wormhole space for the sleepers, and some pvp, everything else is bonus. But I quickly learned that T3 production had its limits. You had to harvest the gas; you needed to mine a little to create some of the other stuff. Everything in wormhole space is carefully balanced. The one thing I'm sure a lot of the groups out here would ask for is the low end minerals. A lot of us produce our own ammo or tech1 battleships, and even carriers. But to take away the ABC minerals that is used to counter the costs of buying the needed low ends for stuff is a bad idea.

As for the mining, most don't go to wormholes space for it, I sure as to hell didn't and I can't think of anyone who made that their goal. If people have there is much better places for it, such as 0.0. Why? Because your asteroid belts are always there. Your down fall to 0.0 is also the politics, and the big corps/alliance mentalities, a lot of people are just sick of it and don't want to deal with the BS.

In a wormhole once you have mined your belt(s) (more than one if you are lucky) you might not get another one for weeks or days. In 0.0 the group you are with will always have some that you can have access to. The first grav site (a mining one) just spawned last night in my wormhole. This is the first one in 3 weeks. I live in a C6 It has 3 ark rocks, and I think 5 or 6 Bistot from what I've been told. Even if the sov upgrade only produces more base Ark that is a lot more than what will ever be found in Wormhole Space. I have seen the odd WH with a few grav sites issue is, if it isn't your own wormhole you best be careful of how many trips you do through your connection, and will you really get all of what you want in time? Speaking of time, if the belt is in your wormhole you have a time limit on it as well. Now you might go I'm going to save this for a day or two and mine it then, but low and be hold that guy that scanned in a few hours later, he warped to your grav site spawning it. You didn't know he did this; you come back a couple days later to do it and guess what, no more grav site. (It might be 3 days for the time limit I can't remember I don't mine) Nonetheless you have a time period on it. You either do the site right away or you could end up losing it.

The system I was talking about wasn't that great it didn't have the greatest NPC spawns or even have a -1 sec rating but it did have the ABCs and funded many projects.

0.0 space is easier to defend then wormholes as well. And you better believe people have to stop to defend their wormholes as well. 0.0 you have cyno jammers for those key systems, you can move around fleets to get better positions via star gates and jump bridges. You can have back up and pick your routes accordingly.

The Risk is higher in wormholes regardless of how you stack it up. And for 0.0 dwellers to say they are under constant attack is a lie. I have been there; I know that is not the truth. And if constant attack means the roaming gangs that come through on people’s night off, wormholes have it too. 0.0 just need to HTFU and move on. 0.0 groups have their times of peace as well. They just like to **** in other people’s backyards a little more.

Ruiryu
Caldari
Gray Rogue Squadron
Posted - 2011.07.19 06:55:00 - [153]
 

Originally by: Alu Utukku


How this pic has not turned up in this thread yet, I have no idea.

The basic truths here are:

A number of the members of the CSM are obvious asshats, who wouldn't know a wormhole from the puckered end of an intestine.

The person comparing moving a freighter full of a/b/c out of a c5 after multiple compressions has no idea what the **** this thread is actually about.

That is all.




I have posted this a couple times, but as a link. I typically fail at setting the links up correctly though Laughing

The R00k
Posted - 2011.07.19 08:54:00 - [154]
 

+1 to removal. corps in wh can mine almost 100% safe if they are doing it right.
Its wrong end of.
CSM are RMT losers we know but they happen to be right.
So remove the ore and lets talk about how we counter RMT alliances.

Woodman2
Posted - 2011.07.19 08:59:00 - [155]
 

Originally by: The R00k
+1 to removal. corps in wh can mine almost 100% safe if they are doing it right.
Its wrong end of.
CSM are RMT losers we know but they happen to be right.
So remove the ore and lets talk about how we counter RMT alliances.


And you don't know what you're talking about, have you ever even been in a worm hole?

raker
Posted - 2011.07.19 09:03:00 - [156]
 

Originally by: Tau Cabalander
OP may have missed, but nulsec already has better ores than w-space, as there are no 5%/10% yield ores in w-space.


Can I point out that to refine in WH space has a cost of 25 %

Thier is no way (imo) that corps are mining ABC ores in WH space and taking it to the market, just getting it thier runs a bundle of risks and you would be lucky to get any large amount out to high sec, you would be a lovely tgt for any corp seeing a movement of haulers thro thier WH space

BTW my corp is building 2 carriers in a c4. cos we cant fly them in and have recently had to run the gauntlet of bringing in 90 mill of Trit from the market, cos thiers not enough ore in our system

So imo , WH corps are bringing in much more ore than they are taking out

For pete's sake just leave WH space alone

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.07.19 12:09:00 - [157]
 

Just a friendly little bump to see if CCP is paying attention at all.

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.07.19 12:33:00 - [158]
 

Edited by: Gypsio III on 19/07/2011 12:33:49
Originally by: Woodman2
Originally by: The R00k
+1 to removal. corps in wh can mine almost 100% safe if they are doing it right.
Its wrong end of.
CSM are RMT losers we know but they happen to be right.
So remove the ore and lets talk about how we counter RMT alliances.


And you don't know what you're talking about, have you ever even been in a worm hole?


Well, being honest here, to mine safely in a WH you can have scouts on your known WH(s), and you can have a combat probe out running repeatedly, looking for fresh incoming WHs and cloaky ships as they log in.

So it is possible to mine very safely in WH space - but this completely misses the point. Because in alliance nullsec, it's far, far easier to mine/rat just as safely, as all you have to do is (have your bot) watch local.

So the logical conclusion is that nullsec is far too safe. If nullsec wants ABC ores and Sanctums, it needs to give up local.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.07.19 12:37:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: Gypsio III
... If nullsec wants ABC ores and Sanctums, it needs to give up local.


Regardless of how cozy they have it in null, it still doesn't justify removing ABC ores from WH space. We get a lot less already for a lot more work.

Taipion
Caldari
Operations Control
United Pod Service
Posted - 2011.07.19 12:50:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Ruiryu
Originally by: Taipion
TL;DR

(I did just read the OP, not the else)


Just one thing to the OP:

Refining in W-Space... just proves how dumb you are! Sorry, truth hurts.

When I was mining in W-Space, besides the all-time-sleeper-hunting, there was a x-large-ship-assemblby-array in my POS, that one has a whooping 18.5m mģ, yep, over 18 MILLION CUBIC METERS!

Now what? That does not help at all! ... Oh well, it does!

Once in a while one of our Rorquals came from one of the other 4 POSses and compressed it, thats even better than refined, mģ-wise!

8m mģ of tasty ABC-Ore, compressed to 400k mģ and haulered out in a frighter.

Damn it, how did you haul with a frighter in there?!?! ... Well, be in a C5 or C6 and have a static C5, if you KNOW how to use this, you have as many exits of whatever kind you could ever need...


Congratulations you figured out the trick that some people use!
But here are a few things you have also failed to mention,
A: POS gets reinforced with all of in those hangers and guess who is going to get screwed.
B: C1-C3 aren't likely to have a rorqual in it. It is rather difficult to get it in some wormholes, and in many cases has to built there. If you lose control of the wormhole you can also very easily lose that ship.
C: You fail at reading and pretty basic comprehension. How you have managed this is beyond me.
D: There are times when refining in the wormhole is needed AND that is what that was what and is what people are talking about.

Anyone and everyone who is an industrialist has likely considered the Rorqual, the group I fly with does just what you said here. But consider those people who this is targeting and not me. Take the blinders off and read a little between the lines. Calling me dumb doesn't prove anything other then your inability to read and fully understand everything here.

Also the truth hurts doesn't it?


A: We had 5 POSes and 9 Caps in our C5, you wonīt RF that, if you donīt do what it takes, donīt whine if it fails!

B: You can build Caps in ANY WH, as to that itīs diffcult or you may lose the WH, see A:

C: You Fail at putting up any real arguments, filling the empty space with nothingness.

D: If you need to refine in a WH, you are doing heavy mining, if you do, get a WH above C3/C4 and a Rorqual. Heavy mining in W-Space without a Rorqual is just silly, and especially compared to the risk/reward-ratio, youīd be better off in HighSec.

Floydd Heywood
Posted - 2011.07.19 12:51:00 - [161]
 

The fact that I haven't seen any of the CSM repeat their ignorant statements after sensible people like the OP have explained to them what wormholes are makes me cautiously optimistic that they may have actually realized they were dead-wrong.

Well ok, that's probably just wishful thinking Laughing

Taipion
Caldari
Operations Control
United Pod Service
Posted - 2011.07.19 13:12:00 - [162]
 

Just to contribute something to the whole WH Vs 0.0 ABC discussion:

I have been in both areas for quite some time, and I minered in both areas heavily, when I was bored, using some 5-7 accounts, so yes, I did that quite seriously, and even though I was carefull, I still was lucky not to lose anything while mining in W-Space.

To the actual comparison:

In WHs you donīt allways have mining sites, actually, itīs rather rare, if you are chasing them in C1-C3 sites then you are doing it wrong, couse those WHs have much too much traffic and too little reward compared to the risk of mining in there, being a "nomad" and mining one WH after the other, either from HighSec or from a static WH inside a C2/C3 might get you some decent mining sites in acceptable time, but as mentioned a rather bad risk/reward-ratio.

Being stationary in a higher class WH, which has the advantage of having less traffic and being farther off from HighSec, you can and should have a Rorqual and heavy fortifications there, requiering quite some people with you to keep it effective, and degrading mining most likely to be only the 3rd-effective profession in there after Sleeper-Hunting and Gas-Mining.
You will constantly have a good supply of mining sites either in your C5/C6 or in your (preferably) static-C5, granting you as much ABC ore as you can handle, but still, if you are there allready, there are much more ISK-efficient things to do.

For 0.0, as it is with the "new" system of military/industry index, if you are not in a system with good truesec and natural ABC, you wonīt be there alone, and the other miners effect what there is and what you do, you will end up being pretty ****ed off, for your choices are rather limited:
1.) Mine mostly non-ABC, as that bit of good stuff is gone in an hour of mining
2.) Try to cherry-pick ABC and not mine much else, so you donīt mine most of the time and **** your corp/ally-mates
3.) Try to coordinate the whole mining-effort to switch off/on belts after downtime for faster respawn to get you just a bit more, but not really much more ABC

TL;DR Version:

WHs: You can mine all that precious ABC off the sites, and there is lots of it per site, though you are likely screwed one or another way.
0.0: ABC is pretty limited if you are a full-time-miner, but at least you got the logistics and safety that WHs wonīt offer, hello all you AFK-miners.

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2011.07.19 14:18:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: Taipion
Just to contribute something to the whole WH Vs 0.0 ABC discussion:

To the actual comparison:

In WHs you donīt allways have mining sites, actually, itīs rather rare, if you are chasing them in C1-C3 sites then you are doing it wrong, couse those WHs have much too much traffic and too little reward compared to the risk of mining in there, being a "nomad" and mining one WH after the other, either from HighSec or from a static WH inside a C2/C3 might get you some decent mining sites in acceptable time, but as mentioned a rather bad risk/reward-ratio.


Far as I know, the CSM were only talking about c1-c3 WH's....
Originally by: Taipion
You will constantly have a good supply of mining sites either in your C5/C6 or in your (preferably) static-C5, granting you as much ABC ore as you can handle, but still, if you are there allready, there are much more ISK-efficient things to do.

They aren't talking about C5/C6...

C1 - C3 WH's (in my experience) have *way* too much traffic to make mining viable, without a POS and other infrastructure. CSM specifically said "day-trippers" - showing a complete lack of knowledge of WH's, WH Mechanics or WH realities...

Taipion
Caldari
Operations Control
United Pod Service
Posted - 2011.07.19 15:23:00 - [164]
 

Edited by: Taipion on 19/07/2011 15:24:42
Originally by: Asuri Kinnes
[...]
C1 - C3 WH's (in my experience) have *way* too much traffic to make mining viable, without a POS and other infrastructure. CSM specifically said "day-trippers" - showing a complete lack of knowledge of WH's, WH Mechanics or WH realities...


Thats basically what I just said, maybe I am not good at expressing my point of view.

C1-C3 (and I would include C4) WHs are not really good for mining.

But on the other hand, in current 0.0 you donīt have that much ABC either, the sites spawned through upgrades donīt have that many of it, and you end up mining other stuff if you do it full-time.


[edit:]
So between C1-C4 and 0.0 (with low TrueSec) you may simply decide between way too high risk on the one hand (WH) and way too low reward on the other hand (0.0).
That is pretty even.

Ruiryu
Caldari
Gray Rogue Squadron
Posted - 2011.07.19 16:13:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: Taipion

A: We had 5 POSes and 9 Caps in our C5, you wonīt RF that, if you donīt do what it takes, donīt whine if it fails!

B: You can build Caps in ANY WH, as to that itīs diffcult or you may lose the WH, see A:

C: You Fail at putting up any real arguments, filling the empty space with nothingness.

D: If you need to refine in a WH, you are doing heavy mining, if you do, get a WH above C3/C4 and a Rorqual. Heavy mining in W-Space without a Rorqual is just silly, and especially compared to the risk/reward-ratio, youīd be better off in HighSec.


The title of this thread is really Ironic I love it.

A: I can say with 100% certainty that that can be reinforced. And done within 2 hours, all I need is to wait for you to sleep. I've done this once already and AHARM did it all the time, they managed to even get my wormhole.

B:I know this I have been doing this, I live in a C6 that has more caps and towers in it than your C5, again though you have missed the argument of this being in c-1-c4. Building capitals in the wormhole can be equally difficult, people who live in these C-classes have already stated that in this discussion.

C: You have failed to comprehend twice now what has been discussed in this thread. I suggest you go and read all of it before replying again. As of right now you look more like a fool than anyone else who has posted who has no clue what they are talking about. My arguments seem to make perfect sense to everyone else here, you can disagree all you like but at least back up your points with relevant topics to this discussion, you keep going back to C-5 and C-6 when we have been talking about C1-C4.

D: Not everyone in wormhole space can handle the C5 or C6, they don't have the numbers or the man power. They might not have the ISK either to buy a Rorgual or even to move into a C5-C6. Those people who live in a C4-C1 a lot of them can't even jump a Rorqual or a different capital in. This means they MUST build it to get it. This means they will be mining and hauling in resources. Everyone needs to start somewhere and making that first jump can be difficult and long.

Again you think I've made this topic to discussion and whine about my hardships. My hardships I haven't even mentioned, you have failed to even understand what this topic is about. For you more than anyone that has posted the first portion of the thread title holds all to true.

If you do reply again without something constructive I'm just going to look past it as your comments have offered nothing constructive to this conversation because of your general inability to read and understand what is being discussed and what has been told to you.

Ignorance is truly bliss.

lech lizdian
Posted - 2011.07.19 16:29:00 - [166]
 

Liang is that you?

Taipion
Caldari
Operations Control
United Pod Service
Posted - 2011.07.19 16:32:00 - [167]
 

Edited by: Taipion on 19/07/2011 16:41:05
Originally by: Ruiryu
Originally by: Taipion
[...]
[...]


[sorry, had to cut the quotes to insert more text of my own Razz]

A: RF is one thing, taking it out a completely different thing, even RFing a WELL built POS in W-Space without Capitals CAN be quite diffcult, donīt allways assume a easy kill, for it is not.

B: [...] though you missed the point, I said, if you wanna do it right, donīt go C1-C3, if you are a more casual player, C1-C3 is quite nice.

C: You say: "You Fail!", You mean: "I Fail!", for the point that you missed, again, see B:

D: Right, and that again leads to the main point: Donīt complain that a C1-C3 wonīt let you do things, that you could not do in a C4-C6 beacause you lack what is required to do so.

[other stuff that you said]: Boy, you can try to make your insults sound as sophisticated as you want, but it does not change what they are and what you do.

Again:

C1-C3 are fine for the casual player or small groups, if you live there, make sure to have a static WH that fits your needs, and donīt count on mining too much, for you wonīt get much out of it.

C5-C6 are fine, and I love them, you again can mine here, better than in the lower ones, huge chunks of ABC, but simply shooting sleepers will get you much, much more.

0.0 has a not that good, but constant and no-risk supply of ABC.



That leads to:
You can mine in W-Space, partly better than in 0.0, but if you are in a WH, there are better things to do.
Mining in 0.0 is less risky, less rewarding, and much more boring

[edit:]
Just to make this clear, my personal opinion is, among other things, that you complain too much about how difficult life in and around W-Space is, were it is actually not, if you have the necessary expirience.
And I donīt support the removal of ABC from W-Space, all my post state that it is kinda balanced between 0.0 and W-Space, and that both areas and their accesibility of ABC well comply with their general philosphy and the given risk/reward-ratio.

Slade Trillgon
Endless Possibilities Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.19 16:42:00 - [168]
 

Edited by: Slade Trillgon on 19/07/2011 16:42:59
Originally by: The R00k
+1 to removal. corps in wh can mine almost 100% safe if they are doing it right.
Its wrong end of.
CSM are RMT losers we know but they happen to be right.
So remove the ore and lets talk about how we counter RMT alliances.


Pilots in 0.0 systems can mine even closer to 100% safe if they are doing it right.


Slade

Blacque Nebulae
Posted - 2011.07.19 17:22:00 - [169]
 

Originally by: Thomas Turnpoint
+1

I've poked around in WH space enough to find out the hard way about the fact that you aren't always alone.
That won't stop me from going back. As a player who is new to it all, it holds a lot of mystery and a good amount of excitement.

I very much agree with the commentary that WH space is "EVE on normal mode".

Having no 'local' simply rocks. Yeah, you don't know they are there, but they don't know you are either. And it gets down to a game of cloak and dagger, even if you are just exploring.

I think there are a lot of 0.0 people who fear "normal mode". They can't get by without their jump clones, stations, and all the amenities of 0.0. In a way, WH space makes *them* look like carebears.

Oh, and correct me if I'm wrong, but you don't get KM's for taking someone down in WH space right? If that's so, you can cut a big chunk out of the low-sec/0.0 folks who play just for the stats.

In my short experience with wormholes, the only thing I would like to see changed would be maybe a little better ability to judge the stability of a wormhole (how long it will last, etc.), and *maybe* add more static ones, but this may not be a good idea. I don't have the experience to know if adding more static wormholes would have a detrimental effect on all of it.

The OP is great. Got me even more interested in WH space in general.


don't know enough about wormholes to comment, but wanted to support the bolded bit there. local should be removed throughout all of eve. the game would be 1000 times better, with epic gameplay around every corner. CCP, grow some ****ing balls and turn local off. NOW.

Karash Amerius
Sutoka
Posted - 2011.07.19 17:58:00 - [170]
 

No lottery in WH space either (officer spawns)...at least nothing that I have seen yet.

Digital Messiah
Gallente
N7 Corporation
PandaMonium.
Posted - 2011.07.19 18:23:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: Floydd Heywood
The fact that I haven't seen any of the CSM repeat their ignorant statements after sensible people like the OP have explained to them what wormholes are makes me cautiously optimistic that they may have actually realized they were dead-wrong.

Well ok, that's probably just wishful thinking Laughing
I think the Mittani's smugness is blocking out all the logical comprehension atm. Also, I think the other CSM's do a great job when talking to each other and addressing issues. I don't know if Mittani comes from some noble family or knows something we don't. But he acts like a king and a bit of an arse to others. You shouldn't address the people you are supposed to be supporting with "I'll jump on this grenade (followed with) a bunch of angry WHer's who are ****ed off about it, and I don't give a $#!7." - 1. you cut off white tree, 2. you said you didn't give a $#!7 "You don't give a @#$% about those players or the players?", 3. you called a game mechanic stupid, one that you don't fully understand or taking out of context "abc's 2 jumps from jita" to prove a misconstrued point.

I have played a lot of games with people like Mittani. They are mostly guild leaders who get a big head once they start giving people direction. I understand he feels entitled to his opinions and ideals. But for the love of professionalism at the very least, don't be proud about being smug. Pride is a deadly sin, don't assume you are worthy to hold it over others, or it will eventually be stripped away.

On a side note: We really need a poll system so that issues like this can be voted on. If they are in fact the voice of the community and they stop speaking for us. Then there needs to be a means to show we are not on the same page. This is for you CCP readers! Put a polling system in the new forums please.

Lyrrashae
Minmatar
Crushed Ambitions
Posted - 2011.07.19 21:46:00 - [172]
 

Edited by: Lyrrashae on 19/07/2011 21:54:22
Originally by: Kiran
If they remove the ABC ores we should ask for the removal of local in null sec and low sec.


That's what I, to name just one, did.

And the trolling from clueless up-themselves blob-tarded 1337-kids and/or their forum-alts is so gratingly predictableRolling Eyes

But, come on, mates, let's be realistic here:

80+ per cent of the player-base couldn't be arsed to vote in the last CSM "elections," and the worst meta-gaming ****-bag in the game--who freely admits he hasn't even played in forever, nor intends to--rigs it to get him and his Greek chorus of narcissists in so they can continue to fellate each other at everyone else's expense.

Why are you so surprised that this is the result?

This is a textbook example how dysfunctional emotional-children/narcissists operate when you give them just a bit of power and/or influence, alright.

Add to that with CCP's equal up-themselves narcissism, and exacerbate it by their monumental incompetence and cluelessness...

Yeah, again, all I can say is, why are you surprised?

(Don't blame me, I voted for the Suddenly Ninjas guy!)

Laruen Pleides
Posted - 2011.07.19 22:18:00 - [173]
 

Ruiryu: There have been a couple points in the thread where you've suggested that those who live in WH Space be open to compromise.
I understand your intentions there, but I don't know that people should just drop into a compromise mindset on this. Statements/accusations about the productivity of wormholes were made without any solid data, and, as you have said, they need to provide evidence in that regard before anyone living in WH space should even let the word "compromise" come to thought.

Reading the comments on this thread has opened up a part of Eve that I know very little about. In fact, I now know that I didn't know as nearly as much as I thought I did. It's amazing how many times I went into WH space before I finally got popped, but even with very little WH experience, it's pretty clear to me as to why the removal of the ores is a bad idea. If anything, more ore would be better.

The CSM (not all of them) and other users also seem to suffer from the "stargate" mindset in regards to wormholes. They have wormholes checkboxed in their minds as a type of stargate, and when categorized as such, perhaps they forget that wormholes open and close randomly, leading to a general misconception about how "easy" it is to get too and from a *specific* spot in WH space.
Then again, if it's not a "stargate" mindset, maybe it is true that they only want the ore removed to further their own agenda or that of an alliance.


J Kunjeh
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.19 22:19:00 - [174]
 

Originally by: Digital Messiah
I think the Mittani's smugness is blocking out all the logical comprehension atm. Also, I think the other CSM's do a great job when talking to each other and addressing issues. I don't know if Mittani comes from some noble family or knows something we don't. But he acts like a king and a bit of an arse to others. You shouldn't address the people you are supposed to be supporting with "I'll jump on this grenade (followed with) a bunch of angry WHer's who are ****ed off about it, and I don't give a $#!7." - 1. you cut off white tree, 2. you said you didn't give a $#!7 "You don't give a @#$% about those players or the players?", 3. you called a game mechanic stupid, one that you don't fully understand or taking out of context "abc's 2 jumps from jita" to prove a misconstrued point.

I have played a lot of games with people like Mittani. They are mostly guild leaders who get a big head once they start giving people direction. I understand he feels entitled to his opinions and ideals. But for the love of professionalism at the very least, don't be proud about being smug. Pride is a deadly sin, don't assume you are worthy to hold it over others, or it will eventually be stripped away.

On a side note: We really need a poll system so that issues like this can be voted on. If they are in fact the voice of the community and they stop speaking for us. Then there needs to be a means to show we are not on the same page. This is for you CCP readers! Put a polling system in the new forums please.


Very well put. Thanks for that.

I agree we need a poll system of some sort (as long as it's one account, one vote).

Ruiryu
Caldari
Gray Rogue Squadron
Posted - 2011.07.19 23:14:00 - [175]
 

Originally by: Laruen Pleides
Ruiryu: There have been a couple points in the thread where you've suggested that those who live in WH Space be open to compromise.
I understand your intentions there, but I don't know that people should just drop into a compromise mindset on this. Statements/accusations about the productivity of wormholes were made without any solid data, and, as you have said, they need to provide evidence in that regard before anyone living in WH space should even let the word "compromise" come to thought.

Reading the comments on this thread has opened up a part of Eve that I know very little about. In fact, I now know that I didn't know as nearly as much as I thought I did. It's amazing how many times I went into WH space before I finally got popped, but even with very little WH experience, it's pretty clear to me as to why the removal of the ores is a bad idea. If anything, more ore would be better.

The CSM (not all of them) and other users also seem to suffer from the "stargate" mindset in regards to wormholes. They have wormholes checkboxed in their minds as a type of stargate, and when categorized as such, perhaps they forget that wormholes open and close randomly, leading to a general misconception about how "easy" it is to get too and from a *specific* spot in WH space.
Then again, if it's not a "stargate" mindset, maybe it is true that they only want the ore removed to further their own agenda or that of an alliance.




I'm just keeping an open mind, no one has to come to a compromise right now I agree. But when the time comes, people should be willing to come to one. The idea in that statement was to spark discussion about what kind of things would be acceptable if "XYZ" and what kind of things could changed to make "XYZ" happen better.

Lyrrashae
Minmatar
Crushed Ambitions
Posted - 2011.07.19 23:37:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: Jesarey
Edited by: Jesarey on 18/07/2011 12:14:25
CSM VI

This pretty much sums the whole "player representation" fairytale.

I dont get it. I truly dont. Why do you even care how much money do wh people make. Why give any voice to thoose damned cowards who cant imagine living without a supercap fleet ready to hotdrop and bail them. You damn pussies.

Just leave the damn WH-space alone. We dont want any of the null vs low vs high sec crap. We dont care about eve politics, who did the Goons pi**ed off this time, or another alliance r***d by PL. We just want to be left alone. We build our own home, and we want to live there the way we want.

Its we who should be *****ing about unfairness. We dont have any upgrades, we cant claim sov, we cant mine moons.

All we have is sleeper sites.And why dont we talk about nullsec scannable plexes. You think sleepers are profitable - think again. They are nothing compared to blood raiders or angels sites in null. They are located in a friendly system. You get a crapload of them in an upgraded system. These sites contain a crapload of nice easy to kill rats, that dont spider tank and dont switch targets. You can bring a carrier to do them. Heck, half the profits you get from bounties - without having to do anything besides killing them. And then you have the nerve to even talk about WH being TOO profitable and TOO easy? You damned hypocrites.


Fixed for spelling, but aside from that:

THIS!!!

+11111111111111111111111111111111111...1!!!!!!!!

Frankly, I just don't understand it, myself: It seems that CCP and their fluffers on the CSM are actively, conciously trying to destroy the fun and gameplay of...well, basically everyone else.

Am I wrong?

I certainly bloody well hope soNeutralugh

Oh, and apropos nothing else whatsoever CCP:

Un-nerf/fix Black Ops, and bring in a Tier 2/Tech 2 BC-sized "Heavy Stealth Bomber" with covert-cloak/covert cyno capability that can mount 4-6 capital torpedo launchers. As it is, the only way everyone freaking else can hope to PvP with you 1337-blobtards is through the use of BLOPs-based gangs, but these lack the striking power needed to kill super-capitals at present. Hell, introduce this ship, and you might not even need to nerf super-caps, provided the rest of us can work towards a realistic chance of killing one without needing more of the ****ing things.

(Don't blame me, I voted for the Suddenly Ninjas guy!)

Lyrrashae
Minmatar
Crushed Ambitions
Posted - 2011.07.19 23:53:00 - [177]
 

Originally by: Maeve Trinity
Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
For them to be nerfed is almost like a slap in the face to players who CHOOSE not to occupy 0.0 because they don't want to be a part of a circlejerk.


QFT. Why is it 0.0 dwellers believe that any measure of success is something that should be exclusive to them?


Look up the terms "narcissism," "solipsism," "group-think," and "false-consensus effect" sometime. Whilst at it, also look up "smug, sanctimonious, brazenly corrupt, no-integrity *******," and see the nice big picture of the entire CSM--with 1, maybe 2 exceptions, and I've lost a massive amount of respect for Trebor recently--in all their...ummm...glory. Yeah, that's it, glory...Confused

Sabre Tek
Posted - 2011.07.21 05:16:00 - [178]
 

Your writing style sucks, go back to school. You could of said all of that in 2 paragraphs.

I stopped reading after your writing turned into drivel which was just after you started typing...

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.07.21 12:12:00 - [179]
 

Originally by: Ruiryu

I'm just keeping an open mind, no one has to come to a compromise right now I agree. But when the time comes, people should be willing to come to one. The idea in that statement was to spark discussion about what kind of things would be acceptable if "XYZ" and what kind of things could changed to make "XYZ" happen better.


A compromise would imply something gained in wormholes in return. For example, dirty comets that we could mine ice fuels and megacyte from. Sleeper drones and a means to reprocess them in wormholes for megacyte and other minerals.

These minerals are needed in holes of all classifications simply for production within the holes and to balance out the logistics of hole-life compared to the cake-walk of null through high-sec. I could see removing the ABC ores if and only if another means to replace said minerals at an equal or greater amount were introduced.

You know... I kind of really like the comet idea... we could use ice fuels in holes.

Mr Kidd
Posted - 2011.07.21 13:31:00 - [180]
 

Edited by: Mr Kidd on 21/07/2011 14:08:15
Edited by: Mr Kidd on 21/07/2011 13:53:23
Edited by: Mr Kidd on 21/07/2011 13:49:37
Regardless of how easy it is to get the stuff out of a C1/2, from a logistical standpoint it just doesn't make sense that w-space is providing much ABC to the market.

Lets compare what a Freighter can get out of 0.0 and what an Orca can get out of w-space. Since 0.0 has perfect refining available I'm going to scale up the amount of ore to the equivalent minerals a freighter could carry as compared to w-space's lack of efficient refining and opting to ship the ore out. The w-space counterpart will only carry ore out of the hole. I'll use Arkonor for this example.

735,000m3 available space in a Providence.
164,171m3 available in an Orca. Cargo,Corp hang, ore bay

1 unit of ark = 16m3
1 unit of trit, zydrine, megacyte all equals 0.01m3

16/.01 = 1600

So, there's a 1600 to 1 volume ratio. For every 1m3 of ark that an orca can carry, the freighter can carry an equivalent 1600m3 of ark.

The orca can carry 164,171m3 of Ark. The freighter can carry 735,000m3 x 1600 = 1,176,000,000m3 of Ark in the form of refined minerals. The orca would have to make 7,163 trips to off load the same amount of ore that a freighter could do in 1 trip.

Lets say the freighter has a 45 jump trip, one way to offload it's cargo. The Orca has an average 15 jumps one way, 30 jump round trip having to make 7,163 round trips to deliver the same amount of ore. That's 214,890 jumps in total. Now, lets say each jump takes 1 minute and that's being kind. That's 3,582 hours or 149 days or 5 months. Man, that Orca pilot is going to have a really long day. Maybe w-space needs to hire Chinese prisoners?

But, lets make that more realistic. Lets say the Orca pilot only has 5 hours a day to play and on average can only play 5 days a week. I don't think I'm being realistic here but, for argument's sake lets assume the guy only has work to deal with and a little bit of a social life. So, he can play a total of 25 hours in a week. Ooh, doesn't look good. It'll take him 143 weeks to offload his ore. Or 2.76 years. I'm sorry, I'm just not seeing how w-space having ABC is a problem.

If I've gotten the math right (I'm not a math person and generally it scares me, so feel free to check it), I don't really see where the problem is with w-space having access to ABC. There's no effective way for w-space to compete with 0.0. This consideration by the CSM is purely epeen in my opinion.

I would really like someone to check my math on this. The numbers seem a bit unrealistic, but I believe it to be a salient point that clearly indicates w-space having ABC is trivial to 0.0.


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