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blankseplocked Ignorance is Bliss, A 0.0 Wormhole Comparison.
 
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DemetRYS
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.18 19:30:00 - [121]
 

Actually never noticed it myself, so thanks for pointing it out. Just having a little fun with the lore crowd. Wink

Venko Trenulo
Spelunkers
Posted - 2011.07.18 20:52:00 - [122]
 

Originally by: Ruiryu

A/B/C Oreís (Arkonor, Bistot, and Crokite) presence in C1-C4 have been of concern because of the so called relative ease of shipping them back and forth to high Sec space. But in actual truth the only true case where this can/should be considered is in those C1-C4 who have a static High Sec exit. Not all of these wormholes have direct access to high Sec space, some of them in fact lead to more dangerous wormholes. So why must all of these suffer in turn? This is a question I have no answer for and should be given to CCP and/or the CSM. I can however agree to a small level that those wormholes that do have a direct access to High Sec space should maybe be looked over on what ores are available there. Wormhole dwellers I know I just plucked a cord for you. But step up to the plate and try to come to a compromise. Show EVE that you arenít the spoiled child, or one of the many raging lobotomized monkeys.

Ah, so if we disagree with you we're spoiled children and raging lobotomized monkeys? That pretty well frames the discussion, doesn't it?

Despite that, no. Just no. The reason is that C1-C3 with Empire exits have different logistics issues than deep-wspace systems, but they are just as dangerous - more dangerous in many cases. The reason is that if you have access to high-population systems, they also have access to you, which means the danger is even more from roving gank squads, which are less likely to delve deep into w-space. They prefer to scan down a wh from high sec, jump in and see what they can gank, and then jump out again to find another soft target.

Risk vs reward: you got it right the first time, but you don't seem to have a visceral understanding of what the risks are in C1-C3.
Quote:
But to clear any confusion, the fabled 2 jump to Jita wormhole does exist, Iíve seen it once since the release. This doesnít mean though that it should be used as a comparison to nerf these wormholes though. The lower wormholes in question (C1 or C2) with static High Sec generally also do not allow for much travel due to mass restrictions.


I had an opening in Isanamo last week in my C2. It was the first time. I took some Sleeper tags and other manufactured stuff out, but no minerals. It's not a biggy - I usually get a path around 17 jumps or so to Jita or to my high sec base, but I prefer the remote ones -- fewer gankers coming in. As soon as I got back from selling the tags I started closing the wormhole immediately, and it was tough with all the incoming visitors.
Quote:

As it has been pointed out several times in other threads and I do believe in this one as well. They canít even accept larger mining barges, or even battleships for that matter. So, making use of an orca for transporting minerals to market is now out of the question.


You might want to do a little research here. B274 is a C2->high wormhole, and it can take 300m per jump. That means a battle ship or a Hulk or an Orca (but not a Rorqual) will fit through it. Not many jumps before the wormhole collapses, though. But that's beside the point: it takes nads of steel to take an Orca or Hulk into a system where it won't have any protection other than what you bring.
Quote:

Without citation from CCP on the true numbers of how wormholes are affecting the mineral market there is no way to truly argue either side of this.

This. It makes no sense to nerf anything (including C1-C3) without data. You're trying to make concessions and compromises before it's demonstrated that any are even called for.

Barbara Nichole
Cryogenic Consultancy
Black Sun Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.18 21:03:00 - [123]
 


I'm not with the CSM who are asking for this removal. if anything wh ABC mining is much more dangerous an activity than it is in generic null sec. I think it's silly to remove it..

but say they want to do it anyway..in that case I believe the addition of WH only vital minerals and maybe new forms of mining just for wh's would be prudent.


Joe Skellington
Minmatar
Matari Legion Holding
Matari Legion
Posted - 2011.07.18 21:21:00 - [124]
 

I can't believe the CSM are asking for removal of ABCs from WH space, what a bunch of ignorant asshats. I've lost total faith in them. Another nail in the coffin for me and this game.

Caldari Citizen20090217
Posted - 2011.07.18 21:24:00 - [125]
 

0.0 has local, easymode logistics (cynos, jump freighters, cyno jammers), easymode intel through local, mad direct isk from sanctums (no hauling), local, predicatable and guardable routes, and most importantly local.

Wh space has no local, dscan every 2 secs or die, the possibility of being jumped at any time (new incoming wh spawn), no certain route in/out, masslimits to haul (no freighters etc), no cynos, no supercaps, feast-or-famine resources, and cannot be botted reliably without risk.

Maybe they should remove ABC from null.

Grey Wind
Posted - 2011.07.18 21:49:00 - [126]
 

I would love to see the nit wits who proposed this crap actually show up and try to defend their stances with proof other than "We think it's stupid". Rolling Eyes The ABC's in WH's aren't being shuttled out, first of all he said a Hulk going into a C1 in the minutes...you can't fit any mining barge larger than a retriever into a C1. And you aren't going to be able to pull out any amount of ore large enough to make the risk of being popped by roving WH pvpers worth yoru time. WH's are not flooding the market, if you wanna remove the ABC's from WH's, come up with some FACTS not nul sec propoganda.

Ruiryu
Caldari
Gray Rogue Squadron
Posted - 2011.07.18 22:06:00 - [127]
 

Edited by: Ruiryu on 18/07/2011 22:15:02
I'm going to just do a standard reply rather than a quote for you Venko Trenulo.


People can disagree all they like, people just need to remember to keep things civil and give logical reasoning, rather than a flame or troll. Everything I've posted is not to be taken as if I know everything I've posted an opinion. I don't want people to be thinking "This is what we should be doing right now". I am simply letting people see both sides of a coin. My suggestions of a compromise is a suggestion to get people to start thinking, people getting their back up against a wall results with nothing but disappointment later if things don't go 100% their way, but if you were willing to make a compromise now later it won't feel like you are getting shafted.

Secondly I agree completely that those wormholes with statics to High Sec have their own security issues. But are they truly suitable for the ABC ores? Yes the risk reward factor is there I agree as you read in my first series of posts. But what everyone else is pointing out is their ease of access to high sec with these ores. In my first post I mentioned a few 0.0 systems, HED-GP being one of them. That system doesn't even have ABC ores there and it is a major travel route.

I'm playing a devil advocate here to get people thinking and talking, and I'm hoping in this discussion that people come to better understand all the issues. My goal at this point has been just this, and so far it has sparked a great conversation.

Also I know full well the risks in a C1 - C3 I have done PVP there and took down someone's POS there.

What exits you like more is of little interest to me, but your statement just goes further to prove points I've already made. Also there is no such thing as deep wormhole space. Some days the wormhole I'm in is only 2 deep from a high sec exit, other dayís yes it can seem deep when you have to go 7 wormholes to find an exit, or some days not even find one. But at the same time if you really need an exit there is one to always be found, it all depends on how dedicated you are to flipping wormholes and scanning.

As for your comment about mass, you just proved that there are multiple different types of wormholes some allow a little more some allow next to nothing. My point here is that I can agree to some degree that those that do have static high sec holes do have some advantage over the rest of the wormholes making logistics to some degree much easier. This was the concern of the CSM as I understood it. I just offered a slightly different solution for people to think about and discuss. Instead of everyone getting all uppity about things, I gave a possible solution to be discussed and talked about. You just simply saying no reason behind it doesn't progress the conversation. This all goes back again to what I first stated in this post, and yes I want to see metrics and statistics on all of this too before making any kind of solid statement on it.

The thread is about comparisons and that is all I've been talking about for the most part.

If you haven't figured out how to flip your wormhole successfully yet send me an in game eve mail and I'll help walk you through it.

I hope this has cleared things up for you and anyone else.

*edited for grammar and spelling*

Capt Sly
Posted - 2011.07.18 22:20:00 - [128]
 

Edited by: Capt Sly on 18/07/2011 22:27:03
Over a year ago I used to "Ninja" WH's from Hi-Sec. When I started Hemophrite was over 5k in Jita and Arkonor about 7k I believe.

I did it solo, 2 Boxes, 3 accounts. C3 and above.

1. Cov Ops goes in scan WH, if active POS's then I would leave. (Although it never failed to amaze me that Corps would advertise their hours of operation (West US Timezone, GMT TZ etc) in their corp description, in those cases I would work them after hours)

2. Cov Ops Pilot returns in Hurricane and Kills rats in the Belt I want, stuck with Hemo for quite awhile till the price drop made Ark more attractive.

3. Back in with a Falcon with Probes to act as lookout

4, Hulk and orca jump in and warp to cloaked Falcon and start mining. It was the hardest isk I ever made, but I probably did 10 successful runs while hemo was still high and made a bunch of isk, I had a couple close calls but I got out safely. One time I exited the WH into high sec and there was a gang of about 8 BC and up forming to jump in, but I had seen combat probes on D-scan and got out before they locked me in.

When I was forced to switch to Arkonor, finally got ganked when a Interdictor equipped gang nailed me in a C-6 with a 0,0 WH that had spawned while I was mining. Did maybe 2 more runs after that and quit while I was ahead. VERY risky business. No doubt the most stressful thing I have ever done in a game.

edit: And once I lost an Orca and a Hulk (along with my Falcon I foolishly uncloaked to save the day Shocked ) I realized that the risk vs reward curve was turning against me and I found other ways to make isk. Was fun while it lasted though, and it darn sure wasn't the tiny drops of ore I was getting to Jita that drove the price down

Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
Posted - 2011.07.18 23:20:00 - [129]
 

+1 for the OP. Well thought out explanation, easy to read and understand.



Lelob
Posted - 2011.07.18 23:23:00 - [130]
 

Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
I just occupied a wormhole (class 3 static lowsec U210) for four days, and had some fun. Between two friends, we pulled a billion ISK out of there. But it was mostly in sleeper sites. We did mine a little, and I think we would up with about 20k Arkonor. It net about 140 mil, which was nothing to write home about.

As somebody who enjoys occasionally doing different things, I believe restricting ABC to 0.0/C4/5/6 is a poor move when you consider the risk that wormhole space brings. Diving into a hole is a very demanding task. It requires dedication, support, logistics and most of all experience. For them to be nerfed is almost like a slap in the face to players who CHOOSE not to occupy 0.0 because they don't want to be a part of a circlejerk.

Honestly, get over yourselves 0.0 holders and let the little guys have some fun, too. You get stations to dock in. W-space does not.


I spent 9 months in a c5 wh and, while it's not exactly the same as the lower classes, I agree as well. Inevitably, I found the work and effort was too much so I left for null. WH's require so much more effort then null ever will and given the crappy nature of the grav sites in the lower end WH's compared to the higher ups, the risks you take in living in a wh and pretty much everything that was elucidated in the OP, I see no good reason to nerf the little guys. Especially given that the guys living in those WH's will probably go right back to highsec, given the way that renters are treated in null.

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.07.18 23:26:00 - [131]
 

OP may have missed, but nulsec already has better ores than w-space, as there are no 5%/10% yield ores in w-space.

Venko Trenulo
Spelunkers
Posted - 2011.07.19 00:14:00 - [132]
 

Originally by: Ruiryu
People can disagree all they like, people just need to remember to keep things civil and give logical reasoning, rather than a flame or troll.

Assuming that's directed at me, the only uncivil thing in my response was noting what you had said: "Ah, so if we disagree with you we're spoiled children and raging lobotomized monkeys? That pretty well frames the discussion, doesn't it?"
Quote:
My suggestions of a compromise is a suggestion to get people to start thinking, people getting their back up against a wall results with nothing but disappointment later if things don't go 100% their way, but if you were willing to make a compromise now later it won't feel like you are getting shafted.

I'm unwilling to compromise before we've even seen evidence that there's a problem. So far all we've seen is speculation from 0.0 types that ABC from wormholes is swamping the market.
Quote:
You just simply saying no reason behind it doesn't progress the conversation. This all goes back again to what I first stated in this post, and yes I want to see metrics and statistics on all of this too before making any kind of solid statement on it.


I agree that we need to see metrics and statistics before we will know whether there's a problem that needs to be solved. Only after it's been demonstrated that there's a problem should we be talking about the solution to it.
Quote:

If you haven't figured out how to flip your wormhole successfully yet send me an in game eve mail and I'll help walk you through it.


I know how to do it efficiently and effectively by running appropriate types of ships through it in appropriate modes. It's challenging if if the wormhole being used heavily. I jumped to my exit the other day and somebody from high sec had jumped in and put up a mobile warp disruptor. I had to fight them off and then I popped it before I continued. If there's a better way to pop wormholes, like the recent "news" article suggesting that one can bombard a Sansha wormhole with ECM to pop it, I'd love to hear about it.
Quote:

I hope this has cleared things up for you and anyone else.

I think we're clear. I also think we agree on nearly everything, and I still applaud the clarity and completeness of your original post. The only thing left to disagree on is whether we should agree to give away ABC ores from C1-C4 before seeing evidence that there's a problem.

Taipion
Caldari
Operations Control
United Pod Service
Posted - 2011.07.19 00:59:00 - [133]
 

TL;DR

(I did just read the OP, not the else)


Just one thing to the OP:

Refining in W-Space... just proves how dumb you are! Sorry, truth hurts.

When I was mining in W-Space, besides the all-time-sleeper-hunting, there was a x-large-ship-assemblby-array in my POS, that one has a whooping 18.5m m≥, yep, over 18 MILLION CUBIC METERS!

Now what? That does not help at all! ... Oh well, it does!

Once in a while one of our Rorquals came from one of the other 4 POSses and compressed it, thats even better than refined, m≥-wise!

8m m≥ of tasty ABC-Ore, compressed to 400k m≥ and haulered out in a frighter.

Damn it, how did you haul with a frighter in there?!?! ... Well, be in a C5 or C6 and have a static C5, if you KNOW how to use this, you have as many exits of whatever kind you could ever need...

Ruiryu
Caldari
Gray Rogue Squadron
Posted - 2011.07.19 01:11:00 - [134]
 

Venko, I wasn't directing the disagreement comment to you, or anyone.

Anyone can disagree as long as they do it in a manner that adds to the discussion (personally I like it when people disagree and criticize things, as long as it is constructive), "Unlike a spoiled child, or a lobotomized raging monkey" is someone who is just going to flame or troll, or just spout pointless random garbage.

As for your commitment to not waiver on a compromise, thatís your choice. But again itís all there in theory to talk about possible out comes to diversify Wormhole space a little.

I also agree on seeing the stats and facts before making any solid agreement or commitment to anything as well.

As for closing the wormhole I kind of figured you knew how, but I was after your response more than anything to again prove a point.

But again remember Iím playing the devilís advocate here. Itís all to spark discussion.

Sassums
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.19 01:14:00 - [135]
 

Where is the link to these talks about removing ABC ores from W-Space?

Ruiryu
Caldari
Gray Rogue Squadron
Posted - 2011.07.19 01:22:00 - [136]
 

Originally by: Taipion
TL;DR

(I did just read the OP, not the else)


Just one thing to the OP:

Refining in W-Space... just proves how dumb you are! Sorry, truth hurts.

When I was mining in W-Space, besides the all-time-sleeper-hunting, there was a x-large-ship-assemblby-array in my POS, that one has a whooping 18.5m m≥, yep, over 18 MILLION CUBIC METERS!

Now what? That does not help at all! ... Oh well, it does!

Once in a while one of our Rorquals came from one of the other 4 POSses and compressed it, thats even better than refined, m≥-wise!

8m m≥ of tasty ABC-Ore, compressed to 400k m≥ and haulered out in a frighter.

Damn it, how did you haul with a frighter in there?!?! ... Well, be in a C5 or C6 and have a static C5, if you KNOW how to use this, you have as many exits of whatever kind you could ever need...


Congratulations you figured out the trick that some people use!
But here are a few things you have also failed to mention,
A: POS gets reinforced with all of in those hangers and guess who is going to get screwed.
B: C1-C3 aren't likely to have a rorqual in it. It is rather difficult to get it in some wormholes, and in many cases has to built there. If you lose control of the wormhole you can also very easily lose that ship.
C: You fail at reading and pretty basic comprehension. How you have managed this is beyond me.
D: There are times when refining in the wormhole is needed AND that is what that was what and is what people are talking about.

Anyone and everyone who is an industrialist has likely considered the Rorqual, the group I fly with does just what you said here. But consider those people who this is targeting and not me. Take the blinders off and read a little between the lines. Calling me dumb doesn't prove anything other then your inability to read and fully understand everything here.

Also the truth hurts doesn't it?

Ruiryu
Caldari
Gray Rogue Squadron
Posted - 2011.07.19 01:24:00 - [137]
 

Edited by: Ruiryu on 19/07/2011 01:25:51
Originally by: Sassums
Where is the link to these talks about removing ABC ores from W-Space?


Right here

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2011.07.19 01:41:00 - [138]
 

Originally by: Taipion
TL;DR

(I did just read the OP, not the else)


Just one thing to the OP:

Refining in W-Space... just proves how dumb you are! Sorry, truth hurts.

When I was mining in W-Space, besides the all-time-sleeper-hunting, there was a x-large-ship-assemblby-array in my POS, that one has a whooping 18.5m m≥, yep, over 18 MILLION CUBIC METERS!

Now what? That does not help at all! ... Oh well, it does!

Once in a while one of our Rorquals came from one of the other 4 POSses and compressed it, thats even better than refined, m≥-wise!

8m m≥ of tasty ABC-Ore, compressed to 400k m≥ and haulered out in a frighter.

Damn it, how did you haul with a frighter in there?!?! ... Well, be in a C5 or C6 and have a static C5, if you KNOW how to use this, you have as many exits of whatever kind you could ever need...


May have read the OP, but you seemed to have missed the point that it's the ABC in low end WH's that seem to be the issue (not that there is an issue - other than in some CSM members minds).

Typecast
Posted - 2011.07.19 02:19:00 - [139]
 

What are you guys doing? Quit rocking the CSMs boat and bend over already!

You only need to look at the alliances the CSM members are from to get a fair idea of their agendas. There isn't much that can be done about it, seeing as alliance members are told who to vote for the major alliances will always have a few guys each on the CSM.

Just like real life I suppose, very rarely will you see impartiality. Can't blame them I suppose, most of us would probably do the same.

Janus Odeo
Aggressive Affects
Posted - 2011.07.19 02:34:00 - [140]
 

Edited by: Janus Odeo on 19/07/2011 02:40:45
Edited by: Janus Odeo on 19/07/2011 02:39:08
Gonna say as someone who has both set up a tower in WH space and lived in nullsec that the OP is as hilariously ignorant of the realities of nullsec as several of the CSM members are of WH space. I'd say that when I lived in nullsec (a C2 with a static hisec and static C4) I was actually much safer than in 0.0. Still I'm going to suspend judgment for the time being and say that ABCs should stay in WH space as I settled in WH space shortly after apocrypha and only stayed for a few months. I imagine it's more crowded now?

But still, thinking of ships only as "the amount of liquid ozone required to move" when the jump bridge nerf just severely impacted the risks of 0.0 travel, and claiming that people can just have infinite ABCs with upgraded space when you're forced to mine tons of worthless lowends to keep that industry level up and respawn the belts, etc. Really think that the OP should have done more research before making this thread, but meh.

Anyways, instead of merely snarking at everyone's inherent grass is greener effect I suppose I'll try to offer some constructive observations.

1. I've read both wormhole dwellers in this thread and 0.0 residents complain about having to import trit for industry, as really no one has any desire to mine veldspar or spodumain or whatever. Maybe CCP should consider adding some sort of high-end low end asteroid to both systems?

2. Both wormhole and 0.0 industrialists would probably like mining to be viable again. Amusingly both sides seem to have accused each other. Many wormhole residents blame "armies of mining bots in nullsec" (if I see any I'll let you know...but I'm fairly sure ratting bots are the problem in 0.0, and the mining bots are in hisec). On the other hand the 0.0 alliance CSM members have blamed wormholes. At least we're not all ignorant of the drone regions, which are very likely the true source of mineral value reduction.

Edit: Have people actually been calling for sleeper spawns in nullsec? I've heard some people ask if there could be higher end nullsec PVE with sleeper AI, but not anyone who wants to gather T3 salvage from the safety of a system with local. Not really relevant since incursions are pretty much exactly that, but meh.


Sassums
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.19 03:00:00 - [141]
 

I agree with the CSM in that wormholes work, there is no need to remove ABC ore from those systems.

However living in WH space, is very hard, in that players can come pop your POS like nothing.

Gerald Sphinx
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2011.07.19 03:12:00 - [142]
 

Originally by: Janus Odeo
Edited by: Janus Odeo on 19/07/2011 02:40:45
... and claiming that people can just have infinite ABCs with upgraded space when you're forced to mine tons of worthless lowends to keep that industry level up and respawn the belts, etc. Really think that the OP should have done more research before making this thread, but meh.


That depends on your local alliance. But overall, it's relatively easy to upgrade a 0.0 system and maintain it. All you need from a powerful alliance is a few days of constant mining ops consisting of a single Rorqual and a few Orcas accompanied by a fleet of Hulk and Mackinaws and you got yourself a decent upgrade. From there, it's let's up to the local corp (that owns the system) doing just a few simple scans for several gravimetric sites and start mining every now and then (mostly ending up selling them for cheaper than Jita prices or for free when in a CTA) to maintain it, which is not that hard. Apparently, mining grav sites help boost and maintain upgrades better than mining standard asteroid belts.

I have also dived into WH on very rare occasions (usually when the WH is detected in the 0.0 system) for tactical reasons. It's a bit weird, but I keep getting that adrenaline rush every time I enter a WH because A) there is no local unless someone there talks to you, B) you have no idea if someone is already camping the entrance and C) you are never sure of the number of people already in there (your D-Scanner only shows what's not already cloaked).

Capt Sly
Posted - 2011.07.19 03:46:00 - [143]
 

Another comparison is the loot to be had in 0,0.

Got news for you 0,0 folks, there are no Billion dollar Officer drops in WH's. The rat's bite a whole lot harder in WH's also. There are also no major NPC plex's with more BIG isk loot. WH's do one thing well and that's T3 BASIC materials. No big score to be had on a chance basis ala 0,0.

How about we just nerf CCP's association with the big Alliances instead?It is obviously a conflict in interest towards the majority of players in this game.

Ruiryu
Caldari
Gray Rogue Squadron
Posted - 2011.07.19 04:05:00 - [144]
 

Originally by: Janus Odeo

Gonna say as someone who has both set up a tower in WH space and lived in nullsec that the OP is as hilariously ignorant of the realities of nullsec as several of the CSM members are of WH space. I'd say that when I lived in nullsec (a C2 with a static hisec and static C4) I was actually much safer than in 0.0. Still I'm going to suspend judgment for the time being and say that ABCs should stay in WH space as I settled in WH space shortly after apocrypha and only stayed for a few months. I imagine it's more crowded now?

But still, thinking of ships only as "the amount of liquid ozone required to move" when the jump bridge nerf just severely impacted the risks of 0.0 travel, and claiming that people can just have infinite ABCs with upgraded space when you're forced to mine tons of worthless lowends to keep that industry level up and respawn the belts, etc. Really think that the OP should have done more research before making this thread, but meh.

Anyways, instead of merely snarking at everyone's inherent grass is greener effect I suppose I'll try to offer some constructive observations.

1. I've read both wormhole dwellers in this thread and 0.0 residents complain about having to import trit for industry, as really no one has any desire to mine veldspar or spodumain or whatever. Maybe CCP should consider adding some sort of high-end low end asteroid to both systems?

2. Both wormhole and 0.0 industrialists would probably like mining to be viable again. Amusingly both sides seem to have accused each other. Many wormhole residents blame "armies of mining bots in nullsec" (if I see any I'll let you know...but I'm fairly sure ratting bots are the problem in 0.0, and the mining bots are in hisec). On the other hand the 0.0 alliance CSM members have blamed wormholes. At least we're not all ignorant of the drone regions, which are very likely the true source of mineral value reduction.

Edit: Have people actually been calling for sleeper spawns in nullsec? I've heard some people ask if there could be higher end nullsec PVE with sleeper AI, but not anyone who wants to gather T3 salvage from the safety of a system with local. Not really relevant since incursions are pretty much exactly that, but meh.




Janus, this post isn't just for the CSM, I am fully aware that there are a couple, that have Wormhole experience. But the fact is that a major part of them knew nothing about them. They weren't aware of ABC ores being present there and they weren't aware of the fact it was null sec space. Also wormhole space does have more people in it.

As for your jump bridge argument, it's still invalid to me as it is still providing you a stupid safe level of travel through space, not to mention a much faster trip. I'm happy they nerfed it. Secondly I helped establish one of the first Jump Bridge networks in the game. I know exactly what I'm talking about here. On top of all of this "when the jump bridge nerf just severely impacted the risks of 0.0 travel" You mean you have to start using the gates again! My heart bleeds for those in 0.0. Quite frankly the system wasn't working as it should have been or was likely envisioned, and that is why it was nerfed to it's current state, those jump bridges took out the "Risk" factor of 0.0. It should be used as a supply chain, and life line. Not a new star gate system.

And seeing as someone already touched on the mineral and sov upgrade comment I'll leave it there. But I will say this much, in wormholes you get 1 belt of rocks, with the lowest level ore quality, that might spawn every two weeks if you are lucky. In 0.0 in a system I was once in we had access to 11 asteroid belts teaming with all levels of Ark and Bistot.

I had a snarky reply for your comment that I was ignorant and didn't do research. But then I thought again of what I titled this and laughed at the Irony in your comment. *Hint I was laughing at you*

Ruiryu
Caldari
Gray Rogue Squadron
Posted - 2011.07.19 04:16:00 - [145]
 

Edited by: Ruiryu on 19/07/2011 04:24:05
Originally by: Gerald Sphinx


I have also dived into WH on very rare occasions (usually when the WH is detected in the 0.0 system) for tactical reasons. It's a bit weird, but I keep getting that adrenaline rush every time I enter a WH because A) there is no local unless someone there talks to you, B) you have no idea if someone is already camping the entrance and C) you are never sure of the number of people already in there (your D-Scanner only shows what's not already cloaked or in range!).


*edit* I fixed your quote, see bolded text.

I'm going to give you one more to think about there Gerald that will likely get your adrenaline pumping a little harder. Wormholes have different effects on ships. Some increase shield but nuke your armor into the ground, some increase speed and have negative effects on missiles and drones. There are some that have no effects and there are more then what I listed. but keep in mind if you find people living there you are going to be playing a big disadvantage card jumping into their system. They are prepared for those effects, they know what works what doesn't and how to kick you in the side of the head without you seeing it. If you want to learn a little more check this out

Culmen
Caldari
Culmenation
Posted - 2011.07.19 04:54:00 - [146]
 

Edited by: Culmen on 19/07/2011 04:55:40
I thought the reason for removing ABC ore from WH was obvious...

CCP Wants: To sell Monocles.
Problem: Wormhole Players do not dock and hence do not buy Monocles.
Solution: Force players out of wormholes so they buy Monocles.

Woodman2
Posted - 2011.07.19 05:19:00 - [147]
 

Originally by: DemetRYS
Nullsec and W-space just offer diffirent styles of risks and rewards.

-Sov. gets invaded/taken, WH gets invaded/taken
-Sov. has to deal with cynos, WH has to deal with delayed local (note: one can be jammed)
-Sov. has jump bridges/JF's, WH has the possibility of empire exists

ABC's belong both places.

A slight correction, local is not delayed in wh, there is no local in a wh unless someone speaks on it.



Janus Odeo
Aggressive Affects
Posted - 2011.07.19 05:27:00 - [148]
 

Edited by: Janus Odeo on 19/07/2011 05:28:00
Originally by: Ruiryu

Janus, this post isn't just for the CSM, I am fully aware that there are a couple, that have Wormhole experience. But the fact is that a major part of them knew nothing about them. They weren't aware of ABC ores being present there and they weren't aware of the fact it was null sec space. Also wormhole space does have more people in it.

As for your jump bridge argument, it's still invalid to me as it is still providing you a stupid safe level of travel through space, not to mention a much faster trip. I'm happy they nerfed it. Secondly I helped establish one of the first Jump Bridge networks in the game. I know exactly what I'm talking about here. On top of all of this "when the jump bridge nerf just severely impacted the risks of 0.0 travel" You mean you have to start using the gates again! My heart bleeds for those in 0.0. Quite frankly the system wasn't working as it should have been or was likely envisioned, and that is why it was nerfed to it's current state, those jump bridges took out the "Risk" factor of 0.0. It should be used as a supply chain, and life line. Not a new star gate system.

And seeing as someone already touched on the mineral and sov upgrade comment I'll leave it there. But I will say this much, in wormholes you get 1 belt of rocks, with the lowest level ore quality, that might spawn every two weeks if you are lucky. In 0.0 in a system I was once in we had access to 11 asteroid belts teaming with all levels of Ark and Bistot.

I had a snarky reply for your comment that I was ignorant and didn't do research. But then I thought again of what I titled this and laughed at the Irony in your comment. *Hint I was laughing at you*



Well props to show that you know more than your OP led me to believe :^:. I'll admit I haven't read more than the first few pages and stopped paying much attention after reading a lot of way I saw things phrased. I'll somehow live with the fact that you laughed at me! And yeah, the irony of the thread title got to me as well, I might have just not replied otherwise. In fact I should apologize to you for just going after you in the post, a lot of the ignorance was probably from the many people that replied...kinda felt like a bit of a circlejerk with how much of a lack of an opposing viewpoint was being presented.

Anyways, IIRC jump bridges actually cost quite a bit in sov maintenance now post-dominion, as do sov bills in general. I'm perfectly ok with the jump bridges now post-nerf, but I'm confused as to how they make traveling effortless. They're nice certainly.

And yeah, it takes quite a bit of effort to take higher-end systems with the great belts you describe, so I'm not sure how that's out of balance. Those truesec systems are a much more limited resource than upgraded industry and the many wormholes in eve. I think even those belts are going unmined though, but I haven't really mined since wormhole space as the insurance nerf made mining fairly worthless.

How many belts you get in a wormhole is random, not one as you say (though yeah, in your home system if you get a belt it's usually just one once you've cleaned out the sites). Back when I was there the static C4 always had more than enough belts than my small corp could handle and was rarely occupied but I'm guessing that's somewhat of a thing of the past. I'm also fairly certain that the industry upgrade belts are also base ABC with no density bonuses.

Running into the character limit here so I'm not going to quote the post, but to Gerald Sphinx, does that change the fact that you still have to mine a certain amount of less valuable ore to keep the industry level from falling from 3 (4 isn't worth it). I'm not saying that it is or isn't a problem the way it is but its a bit worse than being able to cherrypick the ABC ores that are (somewhat but not really) worth your time. In return you get amenities such as easier logistics, station refining, etc while having to defend the space.

Tron Flux
Caldari
Midnite Madness
Posted - 2011.07.19 05:31:00 - [149]
 

Originally by: Siigari Kitawa
Originally by: Jackson Millenius
rofl who mines ABC ores in WH space? Please post here. Please say you mine.

Because I know only 2 in my corp, and they only do it for the fullerene reactions.


I don't know the reasons behind CCP/CSM wanting to nerf them, and I don't care.

But with sleepers and Fullerenes....who really cares about the ores? lol

Imagine you're in a corporation of people who have varied talents. You have the die-hard PVPers, the self-proclaimed mining gods, the glossy-eyed explorers and the avid mission runners.

Between that group alone, you can tackle just about any site in a wormhole. So you find a wormhole that is unoccupied and has thirty or so sites/anomalies and you get to crackin. Once your explorers have scanned down all the sites, your missioners are clearing sleepers out of anomalies and various other sites like radars, magnetos and the warp-in grav/ladars. Meanwhile your PVPers are setting up bubbles on the various wormholes and screwing around looking for random targets to gank and your miners are snoring away blasting the rich rocks that the belts contain. Some are even sat in gas belts to let nothing go to waste.

There are a lot of people who play EVE, and not everybody has each skill in their repertoire. A corporation of friends who are in the game together to have fun (which is what MMOs are about) can easily find plenty to do in a wormhole if they are all from different walks of EVE. Take some of those reasons to go into a wormhole away, and you will quickly find it a wasteland as desolate as lowsec.


+288

Alu Utukku
Posted - 2011.07.19 06:15:00 - [150]
 

Please visit your user settings to re-enable images.

How this pic has not turned up in this thread yet, I have no idea.

The basic truths here are:

A number of the members of the CSM are obvious asshats, who wouldn't know a wormhole from the puckered end of an intestine.

The person comparing moving a freighter full of a/b/c out of a c5 after multiple compressions has no idea what the **** this thread is actually about.

That is all.



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