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XIRUSPHERE
Gallente
Deadly Intent.
Posted - 2011.07.17 22:53:00 - [61]
 

Nap sec has no business trying to fanny up the one piece of this game that is certifiably hardcore. Here's to hoping the rest of us get to find out what delayed local is like. Twisted Evil

Knug LiDi
N00bFleeT
Posted - 2011.07.17 22:57:00 - [62]
 

Quote:
Is C1 even worth it? What kind of income do you get there?


On average about 1B per month, without overly exerting oneself

more folks, more PI options, as well

Nixler Six
Gallente
Barely Illegal
Posted - 2011.07.17 23:56:00 - [63]
 

Am I missing something here??

Isn't this Mittens guy the main Goon? You know a group of "people" who's stated main goal is to RUIN the game for everyone else?

+1 to OP and all the other great posts here.

Leave WH space alone. Spend your time going after the botters and RMT tards in null sec please CCP.

Bootboy Maraki
Posted - 2011.07.18 01:00:00 - [64]
 

Just a thought. If ABC ores are so great in WHs, how come nullseccers don't go there? What is stopping them? I mean they have easy access to WHs since they live in space that contains those. And most likely empty WHs at that.


What is stopping 0.0 dwellers from mining in WHs?
Not lucrative enough? Can't be a problem then.

The underlining message here seems to be that ABC-mining should only happen in nullsec (and WH class 3, 4 etc).

Is that going to bring more ppl into nullsec and WHs? How would that fix "problems with the economy"?

Explain please

AnzacPaul
Perkone
Posted - 2011.07.18 01:39:00 - [65]
 

+1

Please remove the ores ccp, I could do with another riot before my last sub runs out YARRRR!!


On a side note, I wonder if having a short questionarre/survey on login once a fortnight/month to gauge players actual interests in the game would make a difference? Make it simple, 2 or 3 multiple choice questions, and force people to do it. that way you can get the response from the whole player base. Even 1 question a fortnight.

Johannes Alexodia
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.18 02:13:00 - [66]
 

Edited by: Johannes Alexodia on 18/07/2011 02:14:00
Originally by: Bootboy Maraki
Just a thought. If ABC ores are so great in WHs, how come nullseccers don't go there? What is stopping them? I mean they have easy access to WHs since they live in space that contains those. And most likely empty WHs at that.


What is stopping 0.0 dwellers from mining in WHs?
Not lucrative enough? Can't be a problem then.

The underlining message here seems to be that ABC-mining should only happen in nullsec (and WH class 3, 4 etc).

Is that going to bring more ppl into nullsec and WHs? How would that fix "problems with the economy"?

Explain please


Because they are unable to run bots there.

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2011.07.18 02:28:00 - [67]
 

Gotta love it. Great Post OP.

First the 0.0 CSM's didn't know that WH's were 0.0 space and even *had* ABC ores...

THEN the 0.0 CSM's *knew* that so-called "day-trippers" were ruining their market in ABC ores...

Idiots.

Does anyone else remember, back during CSM 5 when the 0.0 contingent got so fired up because "people who didn't understand 0.0 were suggesting changes?" - anyone remember that?

I would suggest that the honorable members of CSM VI don't fall into the same tra...
Mad

oh hell, too late.... Wish we had Mynxee back...

DemetRYS
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.18 02:36:00 - [68]
 

ABC ores belong in w-space more so than nullsec. Seriously, I can't remember the last time I though "oh man, should I undock in my cynojammed system full of blues to go rat/mine etc?

Wormholes on the other hand, make me wet myself on a regular basis. Anyone who can live in there full time, ESPCIALLY with a highsec static, has balls of ****ing steel.

Ris Dnalor
Minmatar
Fleet of Doom
Posted - 2011.07.18 02:42:00 - [69]
 

+1 op

Malkev
Posted - 2011.07.18 03:17:00 - [70]
 

Quote:
the subject of removing "ABC" minerals from wormholes was raised by nullsec-resident CSMs, who were surprised to learn that WH space was nullsec

Clearly we are dealing with experts on the subject of w-space.

Also, more WH 'daytrippers' please. Nothing I enjoy more than logging on and seeing barges/exhumers in sites I already have bookmarked. Twisted Evil

Chatelaine Superior
Posted - 2011.07.18 03:30:00 - [71]
 

look guys, am living in one NPC zero's system for long. i scan system everyday. last time i scanned down a gravimetric site in that system was one year ago. Confused i really would like some balance. i know signature spaming in NPC zeros is low, but one gravimetric site per year? serious?

Digital Messiah
Gallente
N7 Corporation
PandaMonium.
Posted - 2011.07.18 04:21:00 - [72]
 

It would be nice to at least see a response in this thread from the CSM's on an issue they "covered". If you didn't catch the fireside chat here is a recording "Fireside chat 6". Here is strictly their discussion on Wormholes and removing ABC ores.

Ruiryu
Caldari
Gray Rogue Squadron
Posted - 2011.07.18 04:44:00 - [73]
 

Originally by: Digital Messiah
It would be nice to at least see a response in this thread from the CSM's on an issue they "covered". If you didn't catch the fireside chat here is a recording "Fireside chat 6". Here is strictly their discussion on Wormholes and removing ABC ores.


I listened in and I was rather unimpressed by what was said. This generally goes back to their lack of knowledge and understanding of how wormholes work and operate.

Jhan Niber
EdgeGamers
Situation: Normal
Posted - 2011.07.18 05:12:00 - [74]
 

Well, I hear the The Mittani in that file saying they're not going to spend time on the issue, so hopefully this will never become an issue.

That said, the CSM claims that it's easy to get ABC ore out of WH's because it might connect to Jita or some other hub. They say that's stupid, but I'm sorry, that comment is pretty stupid and anyone trying to mine in a WH system that connects to Jita or run ore through a WH system that connects to Jita, or any other hub, is similarly stupid.

OHU812
Posted - 2011.07.18 05:14:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: AnzacPaul
+1

Please remove the ores ccp, I could do with another riot before my last sub runs out YARRRR!!


On a side note, I wonder if having a short questionarre/survey on login once a fortnight/month to gauge players actual interests in the game would make a difference? Make it simple, 2 or 3 multiple choice questions, and force people to do it. that way you can get the response from the whole player base. Even 1 question a fortnight.



+1 ^^^ Excellent IDEA!! That would remove the need for CSM entirely. CCP could spend the money on more important things like development, not airline tickets. Not to mention EVERYONE has a voice!

DeftCrow Redriver
Gallente
Best Path Inc.
Cascade Imminent
Posted - 2011.07.18 05:35:00 - [76]
 

Edited by: DeftCrow Redriver on 18/07/2011 05:40:36
A well written essay that points out logical arguments.

Regarding the CSM fireside talk...

"...you can mine Arkonor two jumps from Jita through a wormhole" and "low risk" are at the same sentence? How is that possible? It's like trying to mine in EC-P8R, PF-346, HED-GP or Y-MPWL, without the 23.5/7 protection of friendly gate camps(because there can be so many friendlies in C3/C4s), while using only d-scan and combat probes to tell how many covert scouts, cloaky recons/T3s, stealth bombers or nano HACs are trying to kill you. It makes no sense at all.

Gerald Sphinx
Gallente
The Scope
Posted - 2011.07.18 05:51:00 - [77]
 

I have to agree with Ruiryu. Nullsec is so full of drama that being an industrialist there means having to devote too much time doing one of the following:

1. Safe up when a neut/red comes into local (assuming your local blues are too sissy to put up a fight).
2. Be called into battle (CTA).
3. Mine for free (for the glory of your so-called alliance).
4. Manufacture for free (same).
5. Selling your minerals and equipment for less than what you get at Jita because of the policy of your alliance.

all while devoting too little time for the following:

1. Mine for personal profit.

And this is all assuming you became a member of a 0.0 alliance and you have your own system to mine in. That said, I feel sorry for the renters because they get treated like crap.

So, no to nerfing wormholes.

Ceryn Stormblade
Posted - 2011.07.18 06:12:00 - [78]
 

I completely disagree with the proposed ABC removal from C1-C3 wormhole space; primarily out of self-interest (I run a modest wormhole expedition with exactly one other person), but also because I don't like the implications of said nerf.

I wonder how many CSM representatives have ever tried a solo/small group wormhole operation? Most of our wormhole mining is constrained by the following:

1)Completely random and very infrequent grav site spawns.
2)Decreased yields due to lengthy refining times/-25% products.
3)Increased time and resources (mostly mashing the d-scanner, but still) to watch out for near-invisible (or sometimes actually invisible) enemies that can strike at any moment. Sure, it's a PVP game; but in w-space there's no local or zero-space allies to warn you that the Huns are on the move. Cowering in a POS can help, but being stuck indoors is no picnic.
4)As mentioned by others, logistics are a huge factor. We spend days waiting for just the right stars to align and give us a good path to empire that isn't plagued by <insert your favorite low-sec denizens here>.

Wormholes are plenty risky; never know what entries and exits will open and bring in nightmares to crush your tiny empire. Removing ABC from lower grade wormholes won't cause me to do anything stereotypical; like ragequit the game or form a protest, but it sure would make a very fun part of the game less fun. It also seems to me (I could be wrong) that this nerf sends a subtle message that unless you're in a zerg mega-corp alliance in zero space, you don't deserve to have as much fun in this game. But I confess to being ignorant of such things; just a small guy trying to make my way in the universe. =)

OHU812
Posted - 2011.07.18 06:23:00 - [79]
 

Edited by: OHU812 on 18/07/2011 06:34:19
EDIT: To add content. <-- HINT CCP

Well Gerald you summed up about everything that can be said about 0.0 with that one post. Been there and done that myself.

Let's herd all the newbs to 0.0 to be slaughtered. Seems the goal now day is try to ruin any possible means of making isk in lo/hi/WH space so everyone can go to o.o and be slaves and cannon fodder. I feel sorry for newbs now days, lol.

AH! Me loves the hermit/pirate life! Nothing like a good bottle of scotch and a cloaky Loki. It will be dearly missed! Indeed.

catinboots
Minmatar
Vintage heavy industries
Posted - 2011.07.18 07:04:00 - [80]
 

Yes 0.0 can have all the abc ores , but as compensation for the WH dwellers all moon goo will now be WH only

Kidding of course but i agree wholehearty with the op

But i agree with the overall trend that some of these 0.0 alliances are getting to powerfull , not only for the rest of us but for all of EVE
and the idea of ' superveld' really makes me think they too lazy to minde veld themselves

Lyrrashae
Minmatar
Crushed Ambitions
Posted - 2011.07.18 07:54:00 - [81]
 

Edited by: Lyrrashae on 18/07/2011 07:54:48
Edited by: Lyrrashae on 18/07/2011 07:54:32
Originally by: catinboots
Yes 0.0 can have all the abc ores , but as compensation for the WH dwellers all moon goo will now be WH only

Kidding of course but i agree wholehearty with the op

[...]

and the idea of ' superveld' really makes me think they too lazy to minde veld themselves


Their bot-armies do it for them. We all know why they never seem to get banned, now, don't we.

Actually, I rather like the moon-goo/ABC-O ore swap-idea (the tears of the null-trash would be epic).

Here's mine, and yes, I'm serious Twisted Evil

Jadecougar
Posted - 2011.07.18 08:10:00 - [82]
 

Fantastic initiative and a :high five: to the OP! Well done.

I've been arguing similar points on Failheap Challenge starting from Page 20 about this very topic. The majority are more concerned about MT rather than WHs but there are some nuggets.

This whole thing has been a load of BS from the beginning...starting from a conversation with people that have no clue about wormholes and especially the mechanics, yet they are talked about as if they know it all. There are two on the CSM (Trebor and Meissa) that know about wormholes, Meissa likely being a bit more ahead than Trebor but I found his (Meissa's) views disturbing on FHC. Two Step from AHARM is an alternate and has been reasonably quiet on the issue since first discussing it on PodGoo podcast episode 21 just after myself, LSE, and The Night Crew CEOs were on the wormhole summit in episode 20 of the same podcast.

Without repeating everything that I've said on the cast or what has been outlined already on FHC, there are a couple of things:

1. The removal of ABC's from "lower end" wormholes
2. The idea to 'nerf' wormholes by introducing tower type restrictions based on wormhole class

Number 1 is just stupid to me. I can't help but chuckle when some numbnut tells me that ABCs out of wormholes are affecting the New Eden market so much that they need to be removed, but no need for change in null sec. LOL

Lets see:

Wormhole space gravs:
- Randomly spawn
- Time limited (3-5 days)
- Others can "activate" them, rendering you with NO knowledge of its lifetime
- No local channel to help
- logistics dangerous/difficult pending number of hostile, occupied systems AND wormhole mass restrictions

Null Sec Gravs:
- Repeatedly Spawn
- Local channel to help GTFO when needed
- Logistics is incredibly organized and risk mitigated through jump bridges and cynos
- can have a rorqual chewing the mined ore from ops real-time


The question then comes about the risk vs. reward to which I'd say to BOTH WH and Null Sec "depends on the situation" but in more cases than not, WH's have higher risk and MORE TO LOSE.

Now, why remove from 'lower end' wormholes? First what IS a lower end wormhole and why from them specifically?

-- The only terminology I've seen stating what a lower end wormhole is are the holes with mass restrictions on capital ships. This (to me) tells me that the big boy corps who pvp just want more targets to blow up...the old big stays big by feeding off some of the medium to small corps that are playing THEIR end game of living in and off the wormholes.

So in summary: a PvP reason

-- The other reason is the logistics which are said to be 'easy.' This is laughable. Anyone in wormholes knows that logistics are rarely easy, even with a high sec hole. Going out? Usually ok. Coming back (unless you have eyes)? Not always.

Number 2 and closing in the next post....

--Jade
Lost in Eve podcast

Gypsio III
Dirty Filthy Perverts
Posted - 2011.07.18 08:27:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Bootboy Maraki
Just a thought. If ABC ores are so great in WHs, how come nullseccers don't go there? What is stopping them? I mean they have easy access to WHs since they live in space that contains those. And most likely empty WHs at that.


What is stopping 0.0 dwellers from mining in WHs?
Not lucrative enough? Can't be a problem then.

The underlining message here seems to be that ABC-mining should only happen in nullsec (and WH class 3, 4 etc).

Is that going to bring more ppl into nullsec and WHs? How would that fix "problems with the economy"?

Explain please


They are so dependent on instant, infallible intel from Local that when removed from its pernicious grasp, they collapse into a catatonic stupor, terrified that they might become a victim of PVP. That isn't what they went to 0.0 for.

And bots lol.

Jadecougar
Posted - 2011.07.18 08:27:00 - [84]
 

Edited by: Jadecougar on 18/07/2011 08:34:18
Edited by: Jadecougar on 18/07/2011 08:32:29
Number 2 (from my previous post) is totally a PvP reason. Restricting tower types sucks balls. While I agree to some extent that POSes in some wormholes are seen to be overpowered vs the firepower that can possibly fit through a wormhole, making restrictions on towers in what is essentially 'null security space' is wrong.

Null sec = sandbox choices regarding defences. Wormholes are the same 'space' only the wormholes have restrictions, which we as wormholers have no problem with. Messing with the towers makes no sense.

If someone wants to set up a deathstar and army out of a C1, that's his choice. I wouldn't bother but if someone wants, and do all the ridiculous work hassling with the holes masses, repackaging, etc...go for it. Have fun! This is EVE.

The mechanics of EVE in general (aside from high sec...which generally sucks in comparison)don't have much mercy for opportunities for the small corps who also wish to enjoy the fun of the game, making money without having be pressured to join a big null sec corp/alliance as renters or pets being treated like crap for it.

Maybe the same 'restrictions' of tower types in wormholes should be applied to Null Sec Tru Sec spaces? Twisted Evil

:whine statement: People want freedom to build their corps in reasonable safety (is that so bad btw??) and make ISK how they see fit. By nerfing the towers in 'null security' space, you once again give the big guys a better chance of taking them out in what is seen as a walk in the park exercise whilst possibly utterly destroying the entire small corp merely trying to make their mark on New Eden by building their corp infrastructure. That kind of loss for a big corp ends up being a laugh with only a few hours before they're back up and running. For the small corp, that may never happen due to its resource limitation. :end whine statement: Laughing

Seriously though, there's a ton of risk vs. reward as-is.

The notion that PvP is "THE" end game of EVE is a load of BS. There are so many things you can do in the game. Punishing (again) the industrialist for their ability to make ISK to produce things so the null sec boys can buy it and blow it up is the 'circle of life' in EVE. WTF are they whining about ABCs for when wormholes have so much more risk, danger, and limitations than the null sec counterparts????

I wouldn't otherwise be so fired up about it BUT when CCP Zulu agrees that some of these issues are "******ed" that leaves me with an impression that based on the feedback of null sec cronies crying about how null sec sucks, they use all that hot air to start nerfing one of the best parts of EVE online in an effort to improve Null Sec, which most of us honest players will agree DOES need work. Screwing with wormholes like that is bad for the game.

I've much to say more on the topic but between what's been said here already by everyone and what I said on FHC, it's enough for now.

Glad to see other wormholers standing up about this issue. Smile

--Jade
Lost in Eve podcast

Venko Trenulo
Spelunkers
Posted - 2011.07.18 09:20:00 - [85]
 

I completely agree with the OP. Wormhole mining is the most dangerous mining there is. Those who say C1-C3 shouldn't have the good ores are simply wrong. Yes, they have a chance of being closer to Empire, but that cuts both ways: it's also easier for PvPers to find and hunt down the miners. In addition, access to Empire isn't as helpful as the 0.0-er might think, because it takes a lot of hauling to get the ore out, or a lot of wastage if it's refined in the w-system.

Mining in 0.0 alliance space is much safer than mining in a C1-C3. With the early warning from local and the advantages of sovereignty they have all kinds of safety nets not available to wormholers.

Risk vs reward - the OP has it spot on.

Balthazar Weston
Posted - 2011.07.18 09:25:00 - [86]
 

I agree with virtually everything said in this thread so far. The Null Sec CSM members know ****-all about WH's and should just but the hell out until they know what they're talking about.

The only reason they're even suggesting the removal of ABC ores is because their Null Sec Alliance Leaders have told them to make that suggestion. They're like the bloody mafia with an insider everywhere corrupting everything!

Either we need to implement the forced survey idea suggested by someone else in this thread, or we need a way to balance the amount of members in the CSM representing each type of space (Low, High, Null, WH) so that there is an equal amount of each.

----- To the Null sec CSM members who probably won't read this: UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU TALK ABOUT FIRST BEFORE STICKING YOUR NOSES IN WHERE THEY AREN'T WANTED!

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.18 09:35:00 - [87]
 

Hi everyone, I just got pointed to this thread, so I thought I'd post some clarifications.

1) At the summit, Meissa and I objected strongly to kneejerk nerfing ABC in WH space. Both of us have some WH experience (him more than myself, but I currently have my second account main living in a C4, where he's been waiting for weeks for one of these fabled highways to Jita). My position in particular is that nothing like this should be done without good statistics on the actual effect of WH mining on the market (ie: net flows out of WH space, not just amount of mining).

2) Contrary to what you may have heard, CSM has received no such statistics. Nor have we heard that any nerf is in the pipeline.

Best,
Treb

PS: If you check the minutes, you will see that Two Step, even though he was an alternate who was not present at the summit, did substantial work on them, in particular related to WH issues. Keep that in mind when it's election time.

Space Wanderer
Posted - 2011.07.18 09:37:00 - [88]
 


I think the issue is simple. Is W-space null-sec? Yes. Is there ABC ores in null-sec? yes.

Why is the CSM messing up with stuff that is working is beyond me...

Jienna Sarain
Posted - 2011.07.18 11:35:00 - [89]
 

Fantastic OP

This post hits the nail exactly on the head.

Having lived in wh's for 2 years (C3 then a C5) i know all too much how much hard work it is. but the pro's outweigh the cons for me once your used to daily scanning etc.

It would be nice to hear some sort of actual first hand experience from these so called "for the EVE community" CSM types that have all our interests at heart ... pfft

PS. compression is the way to go for ores if you find theres nothing else to do but mine in your WH, as it happens our C5 static c3 system gets 3 ore belts 1 after each other if we're lucky every 6 to 8 weeks or so.

Along with Grav sites also comes Null Sec wh's everytime wothout fail ;p

Anyhoo

OP +1 million


Thomasale
Posted - 2011.07.18 11:37:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: DemetRYS
ABC ores belong in w-space more so than nullsec. Seriously, I can't remember the last time I though "oh man, should I undock in my cynojammed system full of blues to go rat/mine etc?

Wormholes on the other hand, make me wet myself on a regular basis. Anyone who can live in there full time, ESPCIALLY with a highsec static, has balls of ****ing steel.


Have NOT read the "hole" thread yet (just up to 68 ) but I had to commend this poster!!! This should be the ONLY place ABC is available BECAUSE you cannot BOT mine it!! **** the CSM for even "thinking" about touching our space!


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