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Aleena Doran
Posted - 2011.07.16 23:07:00 - [1]
 

According to the QEN for Q4 2010 the population disctribution in eve is:
Hisec: 79.61%
Lowsec: 6.68 %
Nulsec: 11.26%
Wormhole: 2.45%
Therefore approximately 80% of CCP customer accounts and 80% of the players the CSM represents are based in hisec.
Despite this I have heard little if anything of CSM/CCP thoughts on future hisec developments. Please could the CSM/CCP enlighten us.

Minutes from the May CSM meeting indicate the next expansion is 0.0 focused (to follow the dominion expansion perhaps). The CSM also expresed a desire in the minutes for nulsec residents to get sole access to ABC ores, better T2 invention opportunities, and to be able to operate with further independence from hisec. I saw nothing to suggest CCP/CSM have any thoughts on how to enhance the EVE experience for the 89% of people not in 0.0.





Cedille Mureau
Gallente
Institute of Archaeology
Posted - 2011.07.17 10:22:00 - [2]
 

Ah, but you should know by now that the only "REAL" players in EVE are in nullsec. Now that the likes of Goonswarm have decided to take the CSM seriously you should not be surprised that CSM are trying to enhance the benefits of operating out of 0.0. It's what all power blocks do, they try to get the best deal for their special interests. The solution is to put up some credible candidates from whs, hisec etc. to try and achieve a balance because if we don't then the only game worth playing will be from 0.0, and that is not somewhere I want to go. I'm not presumptous enough to think that I would be a candidate at any time, this NDA business is enough to put me off but I would be willing to help out and try to counter the block votes of the 0.0 alliances, who will, of course, only be voting for their own candidates and in their own interests.Sad

Kerrisone
Posted - 2011.07.17 12:28:00 - [3]
 

If you read the may minutes and
http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/game/14/feature/5410/EVE-Online-Kristoffer-CCP-Soundwave-Touborg-Interview.html

I think the picture is clear 00 gets buffs and the rest will be nerfed to make those buffs happen or better. Hisec is the bastard child of CCP the one they want to go to war and die gloriously to make them less of a shameful POS for having a bastard. 00 is the prodigal son they want to take over the world and whom they introduce at all the cool shin digs to their buddies bragging about how he punched this kid so hard in grade school the ****er died.

I'd expect hisec to get screwed, in the form of more nerfs to 'safety' and most especially income methods not just missioning but trading, research etc. If we are lucky it won't be messed with but left alone as other parts of the game, 00, see their lot in life improved.

D'Leh Mannuck
Posted - 2011.07.17 16:23:00 - [4]
 

Fact is that High Sec players aren't as vocal as null sec players.
Whereas the null sec residents vote in large chunks the residents of high sec only dribble in here and there and are too spread out to have a real candidate to be pushed forward.

If High sec wants a better representation they have to look for a few credible candidates first and then vote en masse on them.

But since a lot of High Sec people don't bother to vote they resort to complaining.

Groll McCabe
Posted - 2011.07.17 22:35:00 - [5]
 

I'd also like to hear if the CSM has any ideas on improving hisec gameplay. I believe this forum is the official means for comminicating with the CSM. If the CSM views hisec as boring or repetitive then what are their thoughts on how hisec gameplay can be improved?

Name Family Name
Posted - 2011.07.18 02:12:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Name Family Name on 18/07/2011 02:17:12
Originally by: Aleena Doran


Minutes from the May CSM meeting indicate the next expansion is 0.0 focused (to follow the dominion expansion perhaps). The CSM also expresed a desire in the minutes for nulsec residents to get sole access to ABC ores, better T2 invention opportunities, and to be able to operate with further independence from hisec. I saw nothing to suggest CCP/CSM have any thoughts on how to enhance the EVE experience for the 89% of people not in 0.0.




Most of the CSM are 0.0 lobbyists, so what do you expect?
Also, ABC ores already are restricted to nullsec (WHs also being 0.0).

In general, highsec serves two main purposes:
- Let newbs learn to walk.
- Have a neutral meeting ground for trade.

So basically I don't see much need for Highsec expansions. If it's boring and repetitive, go do something else - be it in highsec or somewhere else. Even Highsec isn't restricted to mind-numbingly rescue damsels all day long. Go wardec someone, do incursions, leave for 0.0, WH-space or lowsec.

There is no need for 'mid/endgame' highsec-content, because the mid/endgame content of Eve is already there - it's called Wardecs/0.0/lowsec (as hopelessly broken the latter might be).

The only problem is that highsec is far too lucrative and risk free, hence a huge percentage of players never moves on to a higher level and gets stuck in the newb-area due to a lack of incentives to move on. This needs fixing and this is what's being worked on for the winter expansion.





DemetRYS
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.18 03:18:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: D'Leh Mannuck
Fact is that High Sec players aren't as vocal as null sec players.
Whereas the null sec residents vote in large chunks the residents of high sec only dribble in here and there and are too spread out to have a real candidate to be pushed forward.

If High sec wants a better representation they have to look for a few credible candidates first and then vote en masse on them.

But since a lot of High Sec people don't bother to vote they resort to complaining.



This. Not a single highsec'er I know bothers with the CSM. Then again, most of them don't even visit the forums on a regular basis. If highsec wants representation, they need to abaondon isolationism and get a serious set of candidates in mind for the next round.

I am; however, confident that this will not happen.

Carmen Martino
Posted - 2011.07.18 05:06:00 - [8]
 

Edited by: Carmen Martino on 18/07/2011 05:14:29
Originally by: Name Family Name
Edited by: Name Family Name on 18/07/2011 02:17:12
Originally by: Aleena Doran


Minutes from the May CSM meeting indicate the next expansion is 0.0 focused (to follow the dominion expansion perhaps). The CSM also expresed a desire in the minutes for nulsec residents to get sole access to ABC ores, better T2 invention opportunities, and to be able to operate with further independence from hisec. I saw nothing to suggest CCP/CSM have any thoughts on how to enhance the EVE experience for the 89% of people not in 0.0.



Most of the CSM are 0.0 lobbyists, so what do you expect?
Also, ABC ores already are restricted to nullsec (WHs also being 0.0).

In general, highsec serves two main purposes:
- Let newbs learn to walk.
- Have a neutral meeting ground for trade.

So basically I don't see much need for Highsec expansions. If it's boring and repetitive, go do something else - be it in highsec or somewhere else. Even Highsec isn't restricted to mind-numbingly rescue damsels all day long. Go wardec someone, do incursions, leave for 0.0, WH-space or lowsec.

There is no need for 'mid/endgame' highsec-content, because the mid/endgame content of Eve is already there - it's called Wardecs/0.0/lowsec (as hopelessly broken the latter might be).

The only problem is that highsec is far too lucrative and risk free, hence a huge percentage of players never moves on to a higher level and gets stuck in the newb-area due to a lack of incentives to move on. This needs fixing and this is what's being worked on for the winter expansion.







So even though 80% of the player base lives in high-sec it shouldn't matter. If that were true there would not be nearly as many high-sec systems. Think about it. What you said is short sighted and one-sided. I know plenty of people who choose to live in empire space because of their play style. Not everyone wants to deal with blobs and gate camps.

Cedille Mureau
Gallente
Institute of Archaeology
Posted - 2011.07.18 10:37:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: DemetRYS
This. Not a single highsec'er I know bothers with the CSM.


Well, you know of one now. Me.

Cedille Mureau
Gallente
Institute of Archaeology
Posted - 2011.07.18 10:49:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Cedille Mureau on 18/07/2011 10:50:18
Originally by: Name Family Name
Edited by: Name Family Name on 18/07/2011 02:17:12
Originally by: Aleena Doran


Minutes from the May CSM meeting indicate the next expansion is 0.0 focused (to follow the dominion expansion perhaps). The CSM also expresed a desire in the minutes for nulsec residents to get sole access to ABC ores, better T2 invention opportunities, and to be able to operate with further independence from hisec. I saw nothing to suggest CCP/CSM have any thoughts on how to enhance the EVE experience for the 89% of people not in 0.0.




Most of the CSM are 0.0 lobbyists, so what do you expect?
Also, ABC ores already are restricted to nullsec (WHs also being 0.0).

In general, highsec serves two main purposes:
- Let newbs learn to walk.
- Have a neutral meeting ground for trade.

So basically I don't see much need for Highsec expansions. If it's boring and repetitive, go do something else - be it in highsec or somewhere else. Even Highsec isn't restricted to mind-numbingly rescue damsels all day long. Go wardec someone, do incursions, leave for 0.0, WH-space or lowsec.

There is no need for 'mid/endgame' highsec-content, because the mid/endgame content of Eve is already there - it's called Wardecs/0.0/lowsec (as hopelessly broken the latter might be).

The only problem is that highsec is far too lucrative and risk free, hence a huge percentage of players never moves on to a higher level and gets stuck in the newb-area due to a lack of incentives to move on. This needs fixing and this is what's being worked on for the winter expansion.







It strikes me that we seem to be being astro-turfed on the merits of 0.0 versus hisec. This poster only has an employment record of 4 months and this seems to be a pattern with Amar Azaph posting here link. He too has a 4 month employment history. Coincidence? Maybe.

Name Family Name
Posted - 2011.07.18 11:03:00 - [11]
 

Edited by: Name Family Name on 18/07/2011 11:06:24
@Carmen: Well - until very recently, the majority of players living in the biggest nullsec powerblock consisted of people who never engaged in pvp, didn't camp gates, never left their anomalies even if a homedefense blob was called for or never ran into gate camps because they never used anything but jumpbridges anyway.

Then there's WH 0.0 - no gatecamps, no blobs, and hardly any pvp.

Also, the numbers may be a tad misleading - almost everyone I know in lowsec has a highsec alt for easy money and logistics since the very nature of living in lowsec prevents their mains from entering highsec and lowsec has no markets to speak off.
Whilst most money-raising activities in lowsec may yield a tiny bit more reward than doing the same in highsec, it's just not worth the additional effort to constantly watch local and the directional scanner when you can do it semi-afk in a stupidly expensive pimp-ship without any risk involved at all in highsec.

Groll McCabe
Posted - 2011.07.18 11:46:00 - [12]
 

I saw somewhere that the average age of an Eve player is 31. I happen to have a young family. I assume I'm not alone in having significant RL demands that prohibit me from being on-line for extended periods, on voicecoms or able to monitor local and the scanner without distraction. That makes trips to lowsec or 0.0 an infrequent luxury for me. Does the fact that I am based in hisec make my subscription less valuable to CCP than that of those in nulsec alliances? I hope not. Indeed the fact that I am a casual player means I have had to spend real dollars on plexes to buy new ships when I've lost them. I just don't have the RL time to make that much isk.

It already seems that a disproportionate protion of CCPs development effort goes to supporting a minority of players in nulsec alliances. I hope this doesn't continue.

Trebor Daehdoow
Gallente
Sane Industries Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.18 11:52:00 - [13]
 

There are several CSM members that care deeply about hisec issues, most notably Meissa and myself. There are lots of things that are horrible that need to be fixed, but the blunt fact of the matter is that hisec participation in CSM voting is much lower than nullsec participation, so most of the CSMs are going to come from nullsec until this changes.

Add to that the fact that fixing basic things in the game is boring, but fixing nullsec is a more interesting challenge, and there is a definite bias towards nullsec, at least for now.

It is for this reason that I put most of my :effort: into general game issues like the UI, where improvements would benefit everyone, because it's easier to make the cost-benefit case.

D'Leh Mannuck
Posted - 2011.07.18 13:13:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
There are several CSM members that care deeply about hisec issues, most notably Meissa and myself.


Caring about High Sec issues is a whole other ballpark than actually doing somehthing about it.

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow

There are lots of things that are horrible that need to be fixed, but the blunt fact of the matter is that hisec participation in CSM voting is much lower than nullsec participation, so most of the CSMs are going to come from nullsec until this changes.


It means that the High sec representation will have to realise they have to work harder.
The number of votes alone in the CSM isn't the only thing that decides if something comes up on the agenda. It's also the amount of players agreeing on the forums about a topic.
And yes to have more people in high sec to actually agree with a certain topic you need to work a lot harder than in null sec.

The High Sec CSM members can put in their own agenda to bring the CSM more to the high sec crowd. Raise interrest etc.
You represent a slower to respond and most likely slower willing to vote mass, but if you want to be representers of this group then that is what you do, and not just ride your own favourite piggy and for the rest swim along with the null sec incrowd.


Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow

Add to that the fact that fixing basic things in the game is boring, but fixing nullsec is a more interesting challenge, and there is a definite bias towards nullsec, at least for now.


You aren't in the CSM to avoid the boring stuff. Stuff like this just proves to me that the representation we currently have are mainly glamour bunnies.
"Heee, look what we all did" But heck, I look at all the stuff you again didn't represent or brought forward.

What you call boring is a part which improves the game experience of a lot of people if finally handled.
Fixing null sec is just as boring/interesting as high sec.
The only difference is that the null sec is more vocal about it. This means you will have to find more ways to get the high sec side more vocal.
Yet again, less personal directives and more representation. Your UI improvement isn't why people voted for you.

There is no biase towards null sec, stop flogging that dead horse. There is only more vocal sound about null sec. If you manage to bring high sec on a more vocal path you wont hear null sec because the roar of high sec has the option in it to be ten times as loud.

Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow

It is for this reason that I put most of my :effort: into general game issues like the UI, where improvements would benefit everyone, because it's easier to make the cost-benefit case.



And that is the sad part. You admit that you put most of your effort into your personal project and not into what people voted you for.
You aren't in the CSM for your personal little pet project nor for doing cost-benefit calculations for CCP. They have people for that.

Since this CSM is an obvious fail for the major part of the playerbase I will focus my time on finding a good group of high sec representing people.
To break the hegemony of null sec loudmouths and bring the CSM and CCP's attention to where the bigger part of the playerbase actually resides.

High Sec.


P.S. Yes this is an alt.

Aleena Doran
Posted - 2011.07.18 15:21:00 - [15]
 

Trebor thank you for your input. Appreciate your honesty. With respect however it seems to me that the CSM approach is inadequate. As you point out the CSM represents the interests of only a small minority of players. I am certain ccp is aware of this. Therefore ccp is quite rightly justified in disregarding the CSMs opinion. If the csm provides advice or priority lists to ccp based solely on the desires of the minority they represent, then ccp would be wise to take council elsewhere.

Regarding your point about hisec not being developed because it is not interesting, that is exactly the problem, and what the csm should be addressing with ccp. I'm not advocating cap ships, major fleet fights, or top tier anomalies. Those belong in 0.0 however there does need to be some more attention paid to the interests of the hisec or more casual player, such as more interesting solo pve content like epic arcs, or changes to the way markets work to eliminate market bots and give casual players more of a chance.

Kin Taku
Posted - 2011.07.19 05:17:00 - [16]
 

The CSM, like any elected body, is there to represent all the players of EVE Online, not just the people who voted for them.

If polititions acted in the same way, only looking after a small minority of the people in their electorate, they would not get in in the next round of votes.

The player run alliances and member corps would naturally have an advantage in any voting system, they are already organised and a policy of voting for alliance candidate X would be applied.

For Highsec there is no organisation, there are no highsec alliances or large corps based in highsec, so there is no organisation, there is no body of people to policy a candidate to the CSM.

If 70% of the player base is in highsec, then 70% of the effort and actions should be directed towards this area of the game.

It is not sufficient for an elected body to claim that because the majority of their votes were from their alliance, that they should be representing the interests of that alliance alone.

It is the responsibilty of the CSM to represent all players of EVE. Else the CSM is just a complete waste of time for all but 20% of the player base.

EVE needs more small and solo PVP where someone without 5 years of skills can actually be effective in some way.

hmmmmm makes me annoyed and wondering why I sub'd for a year if the only improvments are going to null...

CCP and the CSM should be sponsoring the love around for all the players...

Juliette Starr
Posted - 2011.07.19 22:56:00 - [17]
 

I'm currently in 0.0 but typically spend most of my time in hisec. From what I've seen there are more game features available to those in nulsec than hisec (moon mining,cap ships,sov,officer rats, etc.). As a consequence it could be argued that those in nulsec have more fun - which is the reason for playing the game in the first place.
Eve is supposed to be a sandbox where players can do what they wish that suits their play style. It isn't correct to say that everyone is supposed to 'progress' from hisec to lowsec to 0.0. Many people just don't like the lowsec playstyle which seems to be largely based around forming or surviving gatecamps.
I believe there shoud be more varied content in hisec to keep the game interesting for the vast majority of players who may have no wish to move lowsec or nulsec, as is their choice.
I play Eve to have fun, not specifically to make isk. I'm not sure that either hisec/nulsec incomes need to be boosted/nerfed. Basing arguments for that on gross carriacatures of rich players is a falacy (cap ship plexer in nulsec vs faction fitted golem pilot in hisec). Both are a tiny minority of players and not representative of either constituency.

WarFireV
Gallente
The Maverick Navy
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2011.07.20 13:22:00 - [18]
 

I believe alot of you people who actually think 80% of the people who play this game play in highsec don't really fully understand the game. That number is a lie, most people who play in nullsec use alts. Whether they be mission alts, trade alts, data core alt, freighter alts, combat alts in training.

I was not the one who said this, but it rings extremely true."People in nullsec know what goes on in highsec. People in highsec don't have a clue what goes on in nullsec."

Also who in there right mind would call moon mining "fun"??!?!

gaudare
Posted - 2011.07.20 15:28:00 - [19]
 

I would like to offer up for the CSM a couple of thoughts on how to better spread out the population from Hi-Sec.
1 - Hi-Sec players do not generally go to the low-sec areas because of the massive amount of it that is claimed by the big block Alliances. Possible Solution: Big block Alliances can only claim 3 or 4 low-sec/0.0 solar systems per member corporation. A non-Alliance based Corporation can claim only 1 or 2 low-sec/0.0 solar systems.

Please note that I am a Hi-Sec player not an alt and I do vote.

D'Leh Mannuck
Posted - 2011.07.20 16:37:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: gaudare
I would like to offer up for the CSM a couple of thoughts on how to better spread out the population from Hi-Sec.
1 - Hi-Sec players do not generally go to the low-sec areas because of the massive amount of it that is claimed by the big block Alliances. Possible Solution: Big block Alliances can only claim 3 or 4 low-sec/0.0 solar systems per member corporation. A non-Alliance based Corporation can claim only 1 or 2 low-sec/0.0 solar systems.

Please note that I am a Hi-Sec player not an alt and I do vote.


1 - It isn't claimed space since you can't claim lowsec like null sec. You can only try to control it.

My suggestion would be more along the lines that Supercarriers can't jump to low sec. Since for low sec and high sec entities it's much less viable to have a big chunk of Supercaps than for big null sec alliances.

This would open more normal carrier and dreadfighting in which the table was less easy turned into the null sec residents advantage as it is now.

Make Supercarriers null sec only vessels and the whole low sec issue becomes a whole new ballpark to play in.

Last Star Fighter
Posted - 2011.07.20 16:44:00 - [21]
 

THE CSM DOES NOT CARE ABOUT HIGH SEC. IT DOES NOT FALL UNDER ONE OF THE MITTANI'S 'CHEST SUCKING WOUNDS' AGENDAS. THE ONLY CHANGES THE CSM WANTS FOR HIGH SEC, LOW SEC AND WORMHOLE SPACE WILL BE NERFS.

D'Leh Mannuck
Posted - 2011.07.20 16:49:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Last Star Fighter
Lot of useless capslock


Instead of using capslock or shouting at people you could try to wake up your brain and put something constructive in any thread.

Sadly enough your just another wanna be populist who shouts a lot into the void without ever offering something usefull to improve stuff.

gaudare
Posted - 2011.07.20 19:15:00 - [23]
 

Well it seems that I really wasn't as clear in my wording and that has resulted in readers not being able to following my suggestion above.

My thinking on the claiming by the Low-Sec/0.0 Alliances was more along the idea that when I a Hi-Sec/corporation player, would be trying to establish a presence in Low-Sec/0.0 and then have to deal with both the rats (that have bigger DPS) and the Alliance roving bands who want to protect what they have/are claiming as theirs, tends to be a bit more than the Hi-Sec player/corporation can deal with. In order to just get setup and dealing with the rats in Low-Sec/0.0 is more than enough to start with. I am quite sure this last thought will not find a strong agreement among this forums readers/commentors.

The idea was that there would be a learning the ropes of this part of EVE before being hammered by every passer by.

Cedille Mureau
Gallente
Institute of Archaeology
Posted - 2011.07.21 10:03:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: gaudare


My thinking on the claiming by the Low-Sec/0.0 Alliances was more along the idea that when I a Hi-Sec/corporation player, would be trying to establish a presence in Low-Sec/0.0 and then have to deal with both the rats (that have bigger DPS) and the Alliance roving bands who want to protect what they have/are claiming as theirs, tends to be a bit more than the Hi-Sec player/corporation can deal with.


I agree entirely. I don't think that hisec corps/alliances have the motivation to move to 0.0 because of the entrenched positions of the incumbants. And why should they be forced to? EVE is, I have always assumed, a sandbox where you can play any way you want. If you are happy roaming around inventing doing PI etc.in hisec why should you be forced to move either to losec or 0.0?

What a lot of people in 0.0 seem to be saying is that they want to have their cake and eat it too. Have a presence in 0.0 so as to form blobs and knock the living daylights out of other blobs and at the same time keep one foot in hisec so that they can make, and develop the materiel need for the blob fights. I read once that BoB, remember them, had a major manufacturing base in Alentene, where's that? hisec of course. Note this quote Here If this is not the most contradictory statement in a long time I do not know what is. Of course trolls are always with us and it maybe that this is a glaring example but from what I have seen reported about statements made by CSM in their "fireside chat" this attitude would appear to be widespread.

I'm not going to bang the drum about the attempt I am making to organise some kind of slate of hisec candidiates for the next CSM election but if anyone is interested they can contact me ingame.

Allanis Valtreis
Posted - 2011.07.21 15:16:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Cedille Mureau
If you are happy roaming around inventing doing PI etc.in hisec why should you be forced to move either to losec or 0.0?

Your perfectly right; a high sec player who wants to invent or manufacture shouldn't be forced to go into low/nullsec. But by the same token, a Nullsec player who wants to manufacture/invent shouldn't be forced to go to highsec, which at the moment they are.

As you point out yourself:
Quote:

What a lot of people in 0.0 seem to be saying is that they want to have their cake and eat it too. Have a presence in 0.0 so as to form blobs and knock the living daylights out of other blobs and at the same time keep one foot in hisec so that they can make, and develop the materiel need for the blob fights. I read once that BoB, remember them, had a major manufacturing base in Alentene, where's that? hisec of course.


Did you know, an industrialist in my alliance (that is Goonswarm, just so you know, since that seems to be a target of your dislike) pointed out that if every single manufacturing slot in Deklein (the 0.0 region we live in), was devoted entirely to the invention and production of T2 ammunition, one full fleet (thats 256 people) could expend the entire production capacity for a full month in just one hour of continuous firing.

Thats why we in 0.0 are looking to get some parity in 0.0/highsec production. We don't want to take anything away from you. However, if 0.0 is supposed to be about creating empires, it is somewhat ludicrous that we can't even produce our own ammunition, let alone ships, modules, and infrastructure. You say we want to exist in nullsec and 0.0 simultaniously? Thats the point, we don't, we want the complete opposite. This char i'm posting with is a purely Highsec character (she's my hauler alt to get things i need from Highsec). I don't want to have to have this char, but at present i do to get the items I need.

Kerrisone
Posted - 2011.07.21 19:26:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Allanis Valtreis
Originally by: Cedille Mureau
If you are happy roaming around inventing doing PI etc.in hisec why should you be forced to move either to losec or 0.0?

Your perfectly right; a high sec player who wants to invent or manufacture shouldn't be forced to go into low/nullsec. But by the same token, a Nullsec player who wants to manufacture/invent shouldn't be forced to go to highsec, which at the moment they are.

As you point out yourself:
Quote:

What a lot of people in 0.0 seem to be saying is that they want to have their cake and eat it too. Have a presence in 0.0 so as to form blobs and knock the living daylights out of other blobs and at the same time keep one foot in hisec so that they can make, and develop the materiel need for the blob fights. I read once that BoB, remember them, had a major manufacturing base in Alentene, where's that? hisec of course.


Did you know, an industrialist in my alliance (that is Goonswarm, just so you know, since that seems to be a target of your dislike) pointed out that if every single manufacturing slot in Deklein (the 0.0 region we live in), was devoted entirely to the invention and production of T2 ammunition, one full fleet (thats 256 people) could expend the entire production capacity for a full month in just one hour of continuous firing.

Thats why we in 0.0 are looking to get some parity in 0.0/highsec production. We don't want to take anything away from you. However, if 0.0 is supposed to be about creating empires, it is somewhat ludicrous that we can't even produce our own ammunition, let alone ships, modules, and infrastructure. You say we want to exist in nullsec and 0.0 simultaniously? Thats the point, we don't, we want the complete opposite. This char i'm posting with is a purely Highsec character (she's my hauler alt to get things i need from Highsec). I don't want to have to have this char, but at present i do to get the items I need.


Can you explain how and why nullsec players are forced to do their research/industry in highsec?

Then can you tell me why there are so few stations in that region as it seems the capacity is lacking if that many people can and do expend that much ammunition in such a short time frame, assuming it was needed etc.

I'd also ask what happens when/if your supply lines/infrastructure/logistics are interrupted/fail/betrayed do you fall into oblivion without the resources you need or do you log on that highsec alt who'll always be there to bail you out?

If you go from null imports 80% of their 'goods' to importing 5% then that is taking away from other people who used to be supplying them out there and now don't have those people to trade with. The same is true for things that happen in 00 to other parts of space like moon goo it is a null only good so why should people not in null have to deal with null players to get it, how about some parity there? You can't 'boost' one area without taking something away from another the more you boost it the more you take away. If we go for 'balancing' we are messing with the way these different groups and areas interact with each other and if done enough we ruin it.

I tend to think the idea that you could take a handful of supplies and rebuild the 'civilized' world in the middle of nowhere with nothing but a few tools is ludicrous. If the point is to go out into nowhere and have nothing to do with the rest of the game then EVE doesn't need to be on one shard and the point of the game is destroyed if there are fewer and fewer ties to different groups of players in different parts of space. The dependencies is what makes the whole single shard universe work and meaningful.

There can and may need to be tweaks here and there but to make it so nullsec dwellers can do whatever they want without ever needing to trade with other areas or make use of any other part of space, low, WH, high is stupid.


Dolm De'Mourne
Posted - 2011.07.21 23:00:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Allanis Valtreis
Originally by: Cedille Mureau
If you are happy roaming around inventing doing PI etc.in hisec why should you be forced to move either to losec or 0.0?

Your perfectly right; a high sec player who wants to invent or manufacture shouldn't be forced to go into low/nullsec. But by the same token, a Nullsec player who wants to manufacture/invent shouldn't be forced to go to highsec, which at the moment they are.

As you point out yourself:
Quote:

What a lot of people in 0.0 seem to be saying is that they want to have their cake and eat it too. Have a presence in 0.0 so as to form blobs and knock the living daylights out of other blobs and at the same time keep one foot in hisec so that they can make, and develop the materiel need for the blob fights. I read once that BoB, remember them, had a major manufacturing base in Alentene, where's that? hisec of course.


Did you know, an industrialist in my alliance (that is Goonswarm, just so you know, since that seems to be a target of your dislike) pointed out that if every single manufacturing slot in Deklein (the 0.0 region we live in), was devoted entirely to the invention and production of T2 ammunition, one full fleet (thats 256 people) could expend the entire production capacity for a full month in just one hour of continuous firing.

Thats why we in 0.0 are looking to get some parity in 0.0/highsec production. We don't want to take anything away from you. However, if 0.0 is supposed to be about creating empires, it is somewhat ludicrous that we can't even produce our own ammunition, let alone ships, modules, and infrastructure. You say we want to exist in nullsec and 0.0 simultaniously? Thats the point, we don't, we want the complete opposite. This char i'm posting with is a purely Highsec character (she's my hauler alt to get things i need from Highsec). I don't want to have to have this char, but at present i do to get the items I need.


Sov nullsec has the ability to increase it's manufacturing capacity. In the time I have lived there I have not seen then exhaust mineral supply or mined out belts. I won't contest the fact of nullsec being dependent on highsec manufacture, but there are ways around it in current game mechanics (POS slots, outposts, upgrades). Also, while living in Null, one issue I never had was not being able to find an empty manufacturing slot. If current resources aren't being used to their fullest, why should other areas of the game that are using them be punished?

D'Leh Mannuck
Posted - 2011.07.22 12:48:00 - [28]
 

Edited by: D''Leh Mannuck on 22/07/2011 12:49:53
Originally by: Kerrisone
Can you explain how and why nullsec players are forced to do their research/industry in highsec?


In retrospect. Can you explain why high sec players should be forced to null sec?

Originally by: Kerrisone

Then can you tell me why there are so few stations in that region as it seems the capacity is lacking if that many people can and do expend that much ammunition in such a short time frame, assuming it was needed etc.


Rofl, there are enough production slots in null sec if the PoS setups would also run manufacturing setups propperly.
But as it is most PoS in null sec are either for jumpbridges, stagingpoints, moonmining and SC and titan building.
It's not asif there aren't anymore moons left for other production setups.
People moving to null sec knew and know that stationless systems which aren't NPC space can have only 1 Outpost.
People moving to null sec knew and know that the infrastructure of Empirespace isn't in place there and most likely won't be in space there.

These are facts those moving to nullsec knew and know and yet they complain about it. Isn't that a result of a choice?
Just like it's a result that a high sec player can't find officer spawns, mine moongoo, mine ABC's or run sanctums.

Each side made their choices and now both sides complain about the lack of contents the other side does have.

Originally by: Kerrisone

I'd also ask what happens when/if your supply lines/infrastructure/logistics are interrupted/fail/betrayed do you fall into oblivion without the resources you need or do you log on that highsec alt who'll always be there to bail you out?


Hmmm, one of the most heard quotes in null sec is that you have to be able to defend what you have. If you can't defend it then you shouldn't have it.
It's space where the might of the strongest prevails. A fact every null sec resident is aware of or at the very least should be aware of.
In high sec it isn't much different with the contant wardecs. Corporations being decced by griefer or merc corporations and disrupting the usual gameplay. Don't you think such a corporation can survive for a longer period of time without the use of alts?

If you can't maintain your supplylines, be it in null sec or in high sec you are doomed to withdraw and rebuild elsewhere.

Originally by: Kerrisone

If you go from null imports 80% of their 'goods' to importing 5% then that is taking away from other people who used to be supplying them out there and now don't have those people to trade with.


I don't think you give marketeers enough credits. Those who can't adapt are forced to other ways. Those who can't will perish.
Isn't that the normal way in EVE?

Originally by: Kerrisone

The same is true for things that happen in 00 to other parts of space like moon goo it is a null only good so why should people not in null have to deal with null players to get it, how about some parity there?


As stated previous.

You can't 'boost' one area without taking something away from another the more you boost it the more you take away. If we go for 'balancing' we are messing with the way these different groups and areas interact with each other and if done enough we ruin it.

I tend to think the idea that you could take a handful of supplies and rebuild the 'civilized' world in the middle of nowhere with nothing but a few tools is ludicrous. If the point is to go out into nowhere and have nothing to do with the rest of the game then EVE doesn't need to be on one shard and the point of the game is destroyed if there are fewer and fewer ties to different groups of players in different parts of space. The dependencies is what makes the whole single shard universe work and meaningful.

There can and may need to be tweaks here and there but to make it so nullsec dwellers can do whatever they want without ever needing to trade with other areas or make use of any other part of space, low, WH, high is stupid.


Kirkland Langue
Posted - 2011.07.22 14:22:00 - [29]
 

I'd bet that a full 90% of Players who consider 0.0 to be their home have multiple alt-characters sitting in High Sec, whether those characters are actively being used or are just sitting around.

I'd bet that 100% of new Pilots start out in High Sec, many of which never even go to 0.0 before moving on to other games - meaning that they haven't experienced enough of EVE to say which parts are in the most urgent need of help.


Not saying that High Sec doesn't need help, but using Population Statistics in a game based around the use of ALTs, is beyond ridiculous. How about just stating what you feel needs fixing in High Sec... often using many different alts?

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.07.22 17:38:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Bagehi on 22/07/2011 17:38:57
Originally by: Trebor Daehdoow
There are several CSM members that care deeply about hisec issues, most notably Meissa and myself. There are lots of things that are horrible that need to be fixed, but the blunt fact of the matter is that hisec participation in CSM voting is much lower than nullsec participation, so most of the CSMs are going to come from nullsec until this changes.

Add to that the fact that fixing basic things in the game is boring, but fixing nullsec is a more interesting challenge, and there is a definite bias towards nullsec, at least for now.

It is for this reason that I put most of my :effort: into general game issues like the UI, where improvements would benefit everyone, because it's easier to make the cost-benefit case.


I have 1 character in null, 3 in low sec, 7 in high sec. My four accounts voted for people who have null sec's best interests at heart, despite an overwhelming number of the characters being in high sec. You will find this is common for most of null sec, so it should come as no shock that though many characters are in high sec, their accounts vote/support null sec issues.


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