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blankseplocked Universe Expansion its way overdue.
 
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Hawk Firestorm
Posted - 2011.07.15 11:20:00 - [1]
 

Looking back over the years since the beginning Eve hasn't had much in the way of any expansion to the Universe.

Initially Average players online started around 1k gang sizes were small and the game played entirely differntly as a result.

Space felt vast and there were plenty of opportunity's for smaller groups to move out and setup home in the sticks if they wanted.

Now the overall population is 50 times or more that what it was initially, and many of the games mechanics are strained to the breaking point and beyond.

Corps have increased in size vastly and so have the gang sizes, blob warefare etc, which makes all balancing of ships etc impossible to the point now eve has progressively moved towards gangs migrating to bigger and bigger ships etc to compete.

It's long overdue the Universe was expanded massively, perhaps with interconnecting gates to other galaxy's, on their own shards, but allowing seemless travel between them, to encourage the player base to spread out more and into smaller groups.

Personally I thik the universe should be expanded 2/3x what it is now and like I've said perhaps be split into separate galaxies that are interconnected in some fashion.

And perhaps the ability for explorers to chart them, character knowledge of these new areas being unkown till explored etc perhaps allowing individuals or groups to set out into the unknown and find a home etc.

But overall the in-game Universe should undergo a regular expansion as the population of the game grows, and also to put back some of the unexplored frontier element of the game like in the early days.

Discussion floor is open.

Skinae
Hello Kitty Hug Patrol
Posted - 2011.07.15 11:30:00 - [2]
 

We roamed for 3 hours today through Min / Gal low sec space and ran into 1 gang, most systems were empty.


Glyken Touchon
Gallente
Independent Alchemists
Posted - 2011.07.15 11:43:00 - [3]
 

This might be an interesting read. From September 2010, so plans may have changed.

One thing that won't have changed though:
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
The tradeoff we have to consider when thinking about overall universe size is balancing that feeling of size and the "localization" (ie, opposite of globalization) of space against being able to get to where the action is and just plain interacting with people. If space was truly vast you could get completely isolated and be exploring totally empty constellations, which many people would find pretty cool - but the flipside is that you'd never run into anyone else and thus wouldn't have the chance to interact with them, and at that point there's not a whole lot of sense in us spending a stack of money on MMO-style server infrastructure when the player experience is indistinguishable from a single-player game.

Medidranda Livoga
Posted - 2011.07.15 11:48:00 - [4]
 

Just another bad opinion from them.

Valei Khurelem
Posted - 2011.07.15 12:08:00 - [5]
 

I'd like to see some more unclaimed 0.0 space added myself, but that's just me.

Doctor Invictus
Gallente
Industry and Investments
Posted - 2011.07.15 13:13:00 - [6]
 

I have something like this in my proposal (specific sub-section here).

Basically, new claimable nullsec regions would be created as players moved outward from existing regions. The system is designed to progress at a crawl (due to material, logistical, and other constraints), so that the universe will expand very slowly and in accordance with player actions. This sub-proposal exists in the context of an overhauled sovereignty system, though. It was basically just a way of giving smaller groups a frontier they could settle without immediate interference from existing alliances.

Valei Khurelem
Posted - 2011.07.15 13:30:00 - [7]
 

I don't think that it's a good idea to make content like that for an MMORPG. This will be because players will easily exploit it by not capturing a few 0.0 systems until they've beaten the other corporations so in the long run it will make it far easier for them to claim the rest of the 0.0 systems for themselves.

Just add in the extra systems right away, don't try and make things more complex than they need to be.

Doctor Invictus
Gallente
Industry and Investments
Posted - 2011.07.15 13:42:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Valei Khurelem
I don't think that it's a good idea to make content like that for an MMORPG. This will be because players will easily exploit it by not capturing a few 0.0 systems until they've beaten the other corporations so in the long run it will make it far easier for them to claim the rest of the 0.0 systems for themselves.

Just add in the extra systems right away, don't try and make things more complex than they need to be.


Why would adding more systems make it easier for an alliance to conquer all of nullsec? Common sense would tend to suggest that the opposite would be true.

Glyken Touchon
Gallente
Independent Alchemists
Posted - 2011.07.15 13:53:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Medidranda Livoga
Just another bad opinion from them.


Read the entire thread. That was one quote regarding massive expansion of space, along with the business case for their opinion. There are a number of posts by Greyscale in the linked thread which expand on his views (of the time).

Hawk Firestorm
Posted - 2011.07.15 14:30:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Hawk Firestorm on 15/07/2011 14:42:45
Originally by: Glyken Touchon
This might be an interesting read. From September 2010, so plans may have changed.

One thing that won't have changed though:
Originally by: CCP Greyscale
The tradeoff we have to consider when thinking about overall universe size is balancing that feeling of size and the "localization" (ie, opposite of globalization) of space against being able to get to where the action is and just plain interacting with people. If space was truly vast you could get completely isolated and be exploring totally empty constellations, which many people would find pretty cool - but the flipside is that you'd never run into anyone else and thus wouldn't have the chance to interact with them, and at that point there's not a whole lot of sense in us spending a stack of money on MMO-style server infrastructure when the player experience is indistinguishable from a single-player game.



Utter tripe.

Eve used to have 500-1k players milling around this universe and there has and always will be plenty of interaction, that's what corps are for.

I may be wrong but it seems greyscale wasn't about in the beginning or he'd know just how wrong all that truely is.

The only way gang sizes are ever going to come down are if the corp sizes do and more corps and alliances spring up over longer distances that plays to peoples unwillingness to jump 90 jumps to a fight so they are more spreadout and localised.

Eve just can't continue as is we've all seen it 600+ lag pits and no matter how much hardware CCP throw at it, the limiting factor is always going to be the clients machine.

As with the Early days CCP needs to recognise and cater for the varied playstyles of different groups be it PVP's builders etc and those inbetween the Empire builders and team project builders that enjoy building stations and their community etc, without having to be in a mega corp or alliance to do so, and trek off to a quieter corner of the universe and do their thing.

The introduction of Jump capable units while great also had a negative effect it made the universe smaller, it negated the players unwillingness to want to travel 100's of jumps to go fight a war, instead of smaller local engagements.

A smart designer is not only good with mechanics but understands peoples motivations and how they interact with a design utilising peoples strengths and flaws.

Having a smaller universe and making it easy to travel large distances is what makes Super corps and alliances, and creates the blob warefare problem which breaks the mechanics of the game in the first place.

There is a direct link to the size of the universe, size of corps and gangs and all the problems that it causes as it has since beta, and there needs to be incentive and opportunity for the playerbase to spread out over huge distances to encourage smaller corps and overall gang sizes to go down, fighting in smaller more localised engagements where the mechanics of the game were designed for and function.

It's what made Eve so unique in the first place, and alot has been lost bercause its been ignored for a longtime.

What made Eve popular with so many people in the first place was all the possibilites, and the gameplay styles that allowed not some eyecandy avatar that takes 5mins to load when you dock. Laughing

Its way past time to bring alot of that back to eve and expand its boundaries and players opportunity's.

Valei Khurelem
Posted - 2011.07.15 14:53:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Doctor Invictus
Originally by: Valei Khurelem
I don't think that it's a good idea to make content like that for an MMORPG. This will be because players will easily exploit it by not capturing a few 0.0 systems until they've beaten the other corporations so in the long run it will make it far easier for them to claim the rest of the 0.0 systems for themselves.

Just add in the extra systems right away, don't try and make things more complex than they need to be.


Why would adding more systems make it easier for an alliance to conquer all of nullsec? Common sense would tend to suggest that the opposite would be true.


Adding systems progressively would make it easier for alliances to conquer 0.0 that is of course unless you're planning on adding far more systems in between the alliances or closer to high security space so that normal people can make a grab for them.

Buzzmong
Aliastra
Posted - 2011.07.15 15:10:00 - [12]
 

The Universe doesn't need to be made bigger currently. It's plenty big enough for the current playerbase.

What it needs howevever is reintroduction of the super highways between the high sec empires, with sub branches into low sec.

Making travelling certain big distances easier will help spread the population out, especially as the vast majority of Eve's players are in high sec (QEN 2010 I think states percentages), around the trade and (now somewhat former) mission hubs.

Don't forget there's quite a big barrier between being in high sec and low sec. Null isn't much different from low (and argueably, low is more dangerous), but the population spread isn't even.

Lowsec needs a change too to make people be more willing to leave high sec and spread their wings. I personally favour seeing Navy ships (not Concord) sitting around 0.4 systems and helping to stop conflict at gates.

Once you make it easier to spread out, and therefore make logistics easier, it's more likely you're going to see lone or small group operations happening, rather than relying on big fleets.

Hawk Firestorm
Posted - 2011.07.15 15:17:00 - [13]
 

Edited by: Hawk Firestorm on 15/07/2011 15:28:46
I agree the expansion would have to be massive, not just another region for a super corp/alliance to go grab but so massive as to have the desired effect.

Making travel easier has the inverse effect, it makes people congregate, larger gangs bigger fights bigger corps holding more territory.

The other problem is of course the way Eve rams PVP down everyones throat, there's no way of allowing groups of players to opt out for a more peaceful existance but still have the benefits of live in 0 space, but thats a different design arguement.

Medidranda Livoga
Posted - 2011.07.15 15:26:00 - [14]
 

I don`t see any problem with sandbox having option for wandering so far from civilization that you will not see anyone else in years.

Plyn
Posted - 2011.07.15 15:29:00 - [15]
 

WARNING: GIANT WALL OF TEXT AHEAD

I saw a very interesting suggestion about a week ago which involved creating new k-space pockets on the other side of w-space that were only connected to the existing cluster through that wormhole pipe. I may try to track it down again and link it, but this is an expansion on that.

This should also entail a slight expansion of the w-space as the increased traffic of people trying to pioneer this new space would probably have an adverse affect on the current w-space dynamic. Perhaps a whole new, unconnected to the current w-space area could be the link, thus not interrupting the parts of w-space that people already know and love.

The new k-space could be entirely 0.0, or perhaps include a/some high-sec areas? I would prefer 0.0, but I'd leave that open to discussion as I'm sure lots of people's opinion on that differs from mine. Maybe some NPC faction controlled space in just a few systems so there would be a very small number of initial stations/trade hubs.

The new space could be occupied (rat wise) entirely by drones. This is flexible as well, and I know drones are typically an unpopular choice, but there are a few reasons why this would be beneficial:

1) Creating a vast new area with no/little stations or anything to begin with means that a HUGE amount of industry will have to be done before it begins to resemble what most of 0.0 is these days. This space couldn't be jumped to by jump-drives from current k-space, so this would force all logistical assets from the current world to be transported, quite riskily, through the worm holes that lead to the new world. As such, the market for minerals in this new space would be really good. Drones drop minerals.

2) One of the reasons, looking at this from a dev standpoint, for being reluctant to create new space is because new space means more rats which means the bounty isk faucet grows. Since drones don't have bounties, they only drop minerals, this wouldn't create any new isk, just move existing isk around.

The wormhole entrance(s) to this new space would of course move around, which means that a large group can't go in and just try to lock it down and own all the space. The link between the worlds needs to be small, but not so small that it is an easy camp point, either. Maybe 5+ w-space systems, each interconnected with each other, each with 3 exits to the new space and 3 exits to our current space. With all of these moving around frequently, people wishing to attack pioneers would certainly have opportunities to do so, but it would be incredibly hard to cover all the bases. Of course there could be more connections (probably would have to be) if people think this would still not be enough. To further spice things up, the new w-space "connector areas" could have frequent dynamic events where incursion like forces of drones or sleepers or something comes and attacks huge fleets camping on the entrances?

Lore-wise this makes a lot of sense, as this would be extremely similar to how new eden was colonized to begin with. "Oh, a wormhole... Oh a bunch of new space..." The only hole I see in the lore is how do the gates connecting the new space systems get there, which I suppose could be explained with the drones (or whatever the rats end up being) being the ones who made them.

This would be ultra interesting to people who enjoy exploring, a lot of new area for corps and alliances to make home, a whole new market away from the normal market, which would eventually open up some amazingly cool cluster to cluster trading opportunities. If the drones were the route taken for the rats/lore/etc this would be a fantastic place for non-superblocks to make their stomping ground, as it would be riskier and slightly less fruitful than current 0.0, so less incentive for the superblocks to spend a bunch of time/assets on this area.

Hawk Firestorm
Posted - 2011.07.15 16:37:00 - [16]
 

Waaay more complicated that it ever needs to be.

Hugh Mungous
Posted - 2011.07.15 17:13:00 - [17]
 

I think a new, new eden on the other side of wormhole space would be cool, but it would be difficult to explain how the stargates got there. I guess ccp would have to build some new ones and maybe found a few new empire factions (why not?).

Other than that...current space surrounding empire is still largely 2 dimensional, big blocks of 0.0 above and below empire would be awesome, but flattening the map would have to be in 3 tiers.

Plyn
Posted - 2011.07.15 17:31:00 - [18]
 

Originally by: Hawk Firestorm
Waaay more complicated that it ever needs to be.


Perhaps! Though some of the reasons why I like an (over)complicated idea like this lie in the fact that it provides new dimensions for game play (literally and figuratively lol, see what I did there Wink)

Just plopping in a couple of new 0.0 regions alongside all the rest of what's already out there will result in more of the same. When I lurk across all the forums here I see some topics come up over and over. Most I won't mention, because they have their own place, and their own flame-wars... but certain ones, like "How to let the smaller corps/alliances have a chance to participate", "How to have fun, goal oriented PvP while avoiding blobs", "How to expand exploration as a player profession", and "How to engage players who've 'seen it all'" can be solved with a single idea.

If you add more 0.0 regions without something new we run into problems:

1) Where did the new space come from? There's a lot of people that don't care about RP/Lore, but there are others that do... and CCP seems to be in the 'people that do' category. If we want them to actually put more space in, it's a good idea to give devs an example of how the space could have got there.

2) New region opens up next to MegaPowerblockA's current territory... Gee, I wonder who's going to swarm that space, find all the bottlenecks, and basically add it to their already massive space? We can't blame them for doing this, it would be folly for them to leave this huge area on the border of theirs unchecked.

3) OP basically states that space is getting too crowded. We are reminiscing of the days when there were only a thousand, maybe a couple thousand people in this massive cluster. The game's playerbase has expanded, as stated before 50x what it was back then? But! The space has remained virtually the same. If we only bump it up to ~160% of its current size without any other limitations it won't really feel that much larger. It won't be any easier for groups of players to go out there than it is to go where is available now. They'll still have to beg for NAP or pay rent to the powerblock next door.

Originally by: Hawk Firestorm
It's long overdue the Universe was expanded massively, perhaps with interconnecting gates to other galaxy's, on their own shards, but allowing seemless travel between them, to encourage the player base to spread out more and into smaller groups.


How does the suggestion differ from what you were originally asking for? You aren't asking for just a handful of static gates to this other zone are you? I mean, sure that's what it sounds like, but those aren't really new zones, they're just new regions that happen to have a one gate bottleneck!

Hugh Mungous
Posted - 2011.07.15 17:42:00 - [19]
 

New regions that are connected by gates but happen to be out of jump range would keep all current supercaps out, might be kinda neat.

I wouldn't mind seeing a 5x increase in K-space. CCP wants to make money right? Maybe a huge increase like that would bring in new players (eventually). There would actually be something to explore again (i think moons should run out of a layer materials or go through techtonic shifts to make different materials available...but thats for a different discussion)

Hawk Firestorm
Posted - 2011.07.15 20:27:00 - [20]
 

Edited by: Hawk Firestorm on 15/07/2011 20:40:17
Connecting other areas to habitate by Wormholes would create problems for newer players for one, if it did happen it would have to be a more convention/unconventional method of travel that was more available to everyone.

Sadly in Eve that method is gates.

As for powerblocks etc one of the reasons they exist is because of the size of the universe, its simply not possible to go off and find a far flung corner of the universe that you can start up in far off the beaten track.

If any expansion was to happen it'd have to be huge, not just a few more regions otherwise yes the larger alliances would just move on in, as making it logistically impossible for any alliance to grab onto and hold.





 

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