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Teinyhr
Minmatar
A Club for Reputable Gentlemen
Posted - 2011.07.14 21:03:00 - [1]
 

Since EVE search is not working at the moment, google returned latest thread on the issue from 2008, and didn't manage to spot anything about this on the first 10 pages....

What is the status of Artificial Intelligence in EVE -universe now? I've understood that Rogue Drones are clearly a form of artificial hivemind, quite possibly Sleeper Drones are as well, but is there any "true" artificial intelligence in the form of, say, an android or shipbound AI's present? What I'm looking for is an artificial individual, a person, rather than the "insect type" of what drones seem to exhibit.

From what I've gathered Aura and shipboard "AI's" - if they're not one and the same thing - in use are more of an Mass Effect like VI (Virtual Intelligence), basicly vast libraries of knowledge on some specific issues on their field, data processors that appear sentient due to intricate programming and appearance, but really are just humanlike data interfaces.
So, is there some information about these subjects in the novels or some chronicles I've overlooked-slash-have forgotten?

Uncanny Valley
Posted - 2011.07.14 21:41:00 - [2]
 

Judging based on Eve's past history with artificial intelligence (the aforementioned rogue drones) you'd think that the desire for those sorts of systems would be lacking. Furthermore, given the advances in pod technology and the speed of human-machine wetware interfaces, the desire or necessity for something along the lines of a true Artificial Intelligence might be greatly lessened. Granted, an AI would be quick and easy to duplicate and proliferate, that would also be precisely the problem. Its tougher to duplicate a pod pilot, but similar to the AI they cannot be "destroyed" per-se. Humans have difficulty accepting things they cannot control, so at least the pod pilot (regardless of their godlike properties) they are probably seen as partially human, and therefore under control (oh, and they don't duplicate themselves).

Teinyhr
Minmatar
A Club for Reputable Gentlemen
Posted - 2011.07.14 21:53:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: Teinyhr on 14/07/2011 22:03:19
Originally by: Uncanny Valley
Judging based on Eve's past history with artificial intelligence (the aforementioned rogue drones) you'd think that the desire for those sorts of systems would be lacking.


Well yes I recall reading somewhere that research in to artificial intelligence is outlawed (or perhaps I'm mixing this with some other sci-fi setting in my mind), but that doesn't necessarily mean that people will give it up. As an example, Sansha's Nation was entirely based into illegal, ethically unbound research - somewhere I read they had vaguely described "+8 implants" almost hundred years ago, among other things. True Slaves are a mix of AI and human, or so I've been told, but again what has been seen of them, they aren't persons, being "hardwired with loyalty" to Sansha Kuvakei, and generally acting more like humanoid computers than sentient beings. Creating an artificial being is a matter of scientific curiosity, if nothing else.

-------

Actually speaking of androids, this sort of ties into the discussion I think, as we have mind transfer technology, what is to stop a capsuleer, or just anyone rich enough, from inhabiting an artificial body of a mechanical nature? And change to a new one after the last one is too old and costly to maintain?

Tarron DiValerian
Posted - 2011.07.15 06:26:00 - [4]
 

I think it was the "Rogue Drones" chronicle itself that states that they're the product of Gallente drone research and the reason why research and development of a true autonomous AI has been outlawed thereon. This stance has even been reinforced with the find of the Sleeper drones in W-space.

Tarron DiValerian
Posted - 2011.07.15 06:33:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Teinyhr
Actually speaking of androids, this sort of ties into the discussion I think, as we have mind transfer technology, what is to stop a capsuleer, or just anyone rich enough, from inhabiting an artificial body of a mechanical nature? And change to a new one after the last one is too old and costly to maintain?


The 'mind transfer' works by recording the layout and the state of the capsuleer's brain in order to reproduce it in the clone. Nothing I've read let me believe that there is a way to actually decode the recording to have a machine-parseable description of the mind's state (thoughts, moods, ...)at the time of the recording.

So the only way to use this recording is to reconfigure the clone's brain to the state of the snapshot.

In essence, a proposed android would require a cloned brain wired to a mechanical body, much like a capsule to a spaceship. And I think capsuleer technology hasn't been miniaturized that far to cram the interfacing (and life support!) tech into a humanoid body.


Viktor Fyretracker
Caldari
Emminent Terraforming
O.G.-Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.15 15:04:00 - [6]
 

I wonder if drones have ever evolved strains that could land on planets and attack those for resources as well or if they just attack ships to get things that would be the results of planetary based services(as in PI materials). Though id imagine they would first have to figure out on their own or steal the required information to figure out how to make something that could travel along the ground of a planet and break back into orbit.

but that would still be pretty cool to see a random chance of in low or null sec "Drone infested planet"

Glyken Touchon
Gallente
Independent Alchemists
Posted - 2011.07.15 15:17:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Tarron DiValerian
The 'mind transfer' works by recording the layout and the state of the capsuleer's brain in order to reproduce it in the clone. Nothing I've read let me believe that there is a way to actually decode the recording to have a machine-parseable description of the mind's state (thoughts, moods, ...)at the time of the recording.


Zainou description
Quote:
A biotech company founded by the eccentric Todo Kirkinen, the first man to have his mind transferred into a machine. Zainou has from its inception been at the forefront of bio-chemical and nano-mechanical research, its headquarters are described as a combination of a mad scientist's lab and a jungle zoo.
And Hilen Tukoss just defected from there...

Ghost Hunter
True Slave Foundations
Shaktipat Revelators
Posted - 2011.07.15 20:16:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Viktor Fyretracker
I wonder if drones have ever evolved strains that could land on planets and attack those for resources as well or if they just attack ships to get things that would be the results of planetary based services(as in PI materials). Though id imagine they would first have to figure out on their own or steal the required information to figure out how to make something that could travel along the ground of a planet and break back into orbit.

but that would still be pretty cool to see a random chance of in low or null sec "Drone infested planet"


I generally agree with the assessment it's easier to harvest asteroids and broken up matter clumps in space than it is from planets. The issue with planets is, I think, mostly how much resources are burned escaping the gravity well. If the margin is too small, you could just invest in existing operations to expand them.

A drone infested planet would be pretty neat looking though.

Unit XS365BT
The Synenose Accord
Celestial Imperative
Posted - 2011.07.15 20:46:00 - [9]
 

the vast majority of drones (at least their alloys) contain some amount of tritanium, which is supposedly not too stable in atmo...

however, drones DO exist on planets in empire, and in many other forms.. repair drones, police drones, medical drones, engineering drones etc, so it is not a push to consider that some (or many) planets in the drone regions have been 'infested'

I do agree that it would be interesting to see the result of a drone infested planet, though i feel it is far more likely that the drones would build some form of Dyson sphere, to more readily harvest solar energy, and would likely strip the interior of such an area of all resources, before bringing resources in from outside.

in fact.. i wonder if they have done that in an un-gated system as of yet. it would be cool to see :)

from a personal standpoint, i can see why it has not happened though, if of course it hasn't... the drones get everything they need from space, all the building materials they use are synthetic in origin, and can be manufactured from asteroid deposits, so they would not need to inhabit planets.

remember that the vast majority of the reason humans in eve still use planets is the need to harvest food, breathable air and the such. Drones don't need em.

-------------------

back to the OP's question though.

Advanced, self-learning AI in eve are unilaterally banned, ( which is bad for me Confused ) ever since the rogue drone incidents, (6 reported incidents where super-advanced drones looked at their surroundings and basically went *screw that* and left their controller's influence, generally with somewhat destructive results)

however, there are some limited AI in existence, such as those you mentioned.

your assumption that they are closer to VI that AI is a valid one, as it is the ability for a drone to truly learn that Directive Omega-One-Five has banned. (unless research is performed under the direct scrutiny of CONCORD...)

i hope some of this inane ramble has been of use. :P

Yuni

Unit XS365BT
The Synenose Accord
Celestial Imperative
Posted - 2011.07.15 20:54:00 - [10]
 

Originally by: Tarron DiValerian
Originally by: Teinyhr
Actually speaking of androids, this sort of ties into the discussion I think, as we have mind transfer technology, what is to stop a capsuleer, or just anyone rich enough, from inhabiting an artificial body of a mechanical nature? And change to a new one after the last one is too old and costly to maintain?


The 'mind transfer' works by recording the layout and the state of the capsuleer's brain in order to reproduce it in the clone. Nothing I've read let me believe that there is a way to actually decode the recording to have a machine-parseable description of the mind's state (thoughts, moods, ...)at the time of the recording.

So the only way to use this recording is to reconfigure the clone's brain to the state of the snapshot.

In essence, a proposed android would require a cloned brain wired to a mechanical body, much like a capsule to a spaceship. And I think capsuleer technology hasn't been miniaturized that far to cram the interfacing (and life support!) tech into a humanoid body.




ah.. but EVE lore has the answer.. nothing except the HUGE requirements of power and ISK is stopping you... (and the development time for CCP itself... lol)

Look into Zainou corporation. It's CEO is the first human (in recent years) to have fully transferred his conciousness into a computerised system. It is likely he now oversees all electronic happenings within Zainou...

an effective cyber-security measure i think. perhaps something Yuni here should be looking into :P

Tarron DiValerian
Posted - 2011.07.20 06:12:00 - [11]
 

Okay. So someone did manage to transfer himself into a machine and get it working, opposed to being a simple bunch of data to be stored.

But there has to be a reason why this technique isn't widespread but rather looks like a one-shot achievement of a single brilliant scientist or research effort.

Think about the advantages: Why carrying that meatbag around in a ship, needing specialized equipment and care if the same can be done using a highly sophisticated computer?

As stated earlier, I'd assume that this was a single achivement and not a piece of technology suited for mass consumption, plus it would surely fall into the jurisdiction concerning AI's, since it doesn't quite matter how a 'thinking machine' is made -- only that it would be.

So why not pulling the plug of the machine already in existence? Simple: We're talking about a big one in a Caldari Corporation; exactly that kind of institution that makes the laws in Caldari society. And the laws concerning creating AI's may cover just that -- creating them. Destroying one, especially if it was a human mind once, may be akin to murder.

Seriphyn Inhonores
Gallente
Eleutherian Guard
Posted - 2011.07.20 12:10:00 - [12]
 

A few points...

- The Federation are pioneers of artificial intelligence
- From the showinfo description of a factory PIN, Gallente factories can be staffed by "androids overwatched by a team of drones"
- In the Burning Life, one of the protagonists encounters a Blood Raider AI which speaks to him with remarkable humanity and programmed emotions. Note that the Blood Raiders fall outside of CONCORD jurisdiction anyway.

I believe that especially in places like the Federation, AI is a very integrated part of society. Street cleaning drones, advertisements, office receptionists, and so on. They would not necessarily be autonomous, just have an extremely advanced programming.

This is the future, after all.

Deviana Sevidon
Gallente
Panta-Rhei
Butterfly Effect Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.20 18:41:00 - [13]
 

The Greatest Joke (Linkage mentions being counseled by an AI. I think limited types of AI are quite common, but probably with a lot of restrictions so they cannot beyond the task they are initially programmed to and cannot duplicate themselves.

The rogue drone problem was caused by AI that could reproduce and evolve beyond their programming.


 

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