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blankseplocked [Proposal] Yet Another Faction War Fix
 
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Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.14 07:04:00 - [1]
 

Just a thought, (if not original, then please forgive me)
But why not make FW PAY the participants?
I mean, many complain that FW is a empty shell of what it can be. It seems to me that the easiest way to get anyone to do something in an ultra-capitalist society is to reward them for actions with ISK.

If you are part of the Armed Forces, you should expect to get PAID for your services.
Currently the only way this can happen is through Militia Agents, and frankly, anything less than lvl4 missions are not worth it, as the amount you stand to lose in loss of ships for lvl1 and lvl2 players aren't worth the rewards.

Why not PAY for kills? You are fighting for your faction anyhow, seems to me like the faction should reward you for it. (should apply for corps and players)

Of course we have to make sure that people don't create alts just to join the other side to be killed. So maybe set the rewards for kills to be depending on the 'pretige' or rank of the pilot that you shot down.

Also make lower level mission rewards worth more, so that it can be a full time profession. It makes no sense that people have to mine or do something else just so that they can make a living while in the militia. The missions should not make anyone rich, but it should at least make them self sufficient. Make the rewards a function of how large the enemy force is or how much territory they have vs yours etc.

Any comments or suggestions?

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.07.14 09:39:00 - [2]
 

We already have LP-for-Kills, they just need to fix it so that all involved get a slice (top damage/mail recipient only now I think). There is your direct pay.

If you know of anyone mining to make ends meet in FW, pod them for me please. They must be so dumb that their deaths will bring the average IQ of the server as a whole up several points! Very Happy

I can (if I could be arsed to) make ISK enough for a supercarrier in little over one month with only a few hours per day invested in FW .. show me a place that is not deep null where that is possible.
Why do you think that 95%+ of all militia members do nothing but mission whoring?

PS: FW is a proxy war, it is not the "armed forces" but rag-tag militias.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.14 10:15:00 - [3]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
We already have LP-for-Kills, they just need to fix it so that all involved get a slice (top damage/mail recipient only now I think). There is your direct pay.

If you know of anyone mining to make ends meet in FW, pod them for me please. They must be so dumb that their deaths will bring the average IQ of the server as a whole up several points! Very Happy

I can (if I could be arsed to) make ISK enough for a supercarrier in little over one month with only a few hours per day invested in FW .. show me a place that is not deep null where that is possible.
Why do you think that 95%+ of all militia members do nothing but mission whoring?

PS: FW is a proxy war, it is not the "armed forces" but rag-tag militias.



Maybe I'm missing the point of all the threads that FW is 'broken' then.

Interesting though, didn't knaw about the LP. How does that translate into ISK though?
getting things from the store and selling them?

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.07.14 12:01:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Maybe I'm missing the point of all the threads that FW is 'broken' then...

It is not broken because of the lack of ISK, but because the mechanics and general system is FUBAR.
CCP did not spend months prior to release riling people up with promises of the biggest cash cow in Eve's history, but rather meaningful small-gang action, RP and entertainment .. the pew is there, but not really all that different from everywhere else any more.

LP-for-Kills is pretty low, but yes you get LP with your militia to use FW store for killing others. Any higher and you will start to see people killing alts repeatedly so not really a steady income but nice to see a flash once in a while.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.14 15:51:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 14/07/2011 15:51:52
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Maybe I'm missing the point of all the threads that FW is 'broken' then...

It is not broken because of the lack of ISK, but because the mechanics and general system is FUBAR.
CCP did not spend months prior to release riling people up with promises of the biggest cash cow in Eve's history, but rather meaningful small-gang action, RP and entertainment .. the pew is there, but not really all that different from everywhere else any more.

LP-for-Kills is pretty low, but yes you get LP with your militia to use FW store for killing others. Any higher and you will start to see people killing alts repeatedly so not really a steady income but nice to see a flash once in a while.


Sorry if I'm being obtuse, but I really just never been in militia so don't know, but is the LP earned any more than the LP with regular lvl1 and lvl2 missions? If so, then how can this really pay for itself? Are there any special items that you get from Militia stations or missions that are worth more than the occasional lost frigate or destroyer for beginner players?

In your opinion, (as you seem to have more experience than I) can a beginner player support themselves doing FW (what does that mean exactly) alone? I know 1 case where someone was just doing the lvl1 missions and they complained that at that rate it would take them forever to earn enough to buy a cruiser, let alone carry the cost of losing one. If I were to take his story at face value, I would say that their is a game mechanic problem here. But as he already quit EVE, I thought I would throw this topic out for discussion and comments from those who may know better.

X Gallentius
Quantum Cats Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.14 16:24:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: X Gallentius on 14/07/2011 16:24:11
FW missions can easily support a FW player's pvp habits.


Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.07.14 17:47:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
Sorry if I'm being obtuse, but I really just never been in militia so don't know, but is the LP earned any more than the LP with regular lvl1 and lvl2 missions? If so, then how can this really pay for itself? Are there any special items that you get from Militia stations or missions that are worth more than the occasional lost frigate or destroyer for beginner players?

In your opinion, (as you seem to have more experience than I) can a beginner player support themselves doing FW (what does that mean exactly) alone? I know 1 case where someone was just doing the lvl1 missions and they complained that at that rate it would take them forever to earn enough to buy a cruiser, let alone carry the cost of losing one. If I were to take his story at face value, I would say that their is a game mechanic problem here. But as he already quit EVE, I thought I would throw this topic out for discussion and comments from those who may know better.


The LP in FW is fantastic. Check the LP reward costs:
Faction Warfare
Mission Running

Dedicated, reasonably skilled FW pilots make a couple billion a month. One problem with FW is the gap between skilled (both experience and SP) players and new players. One big problem has been that because Gallente ships are generally gimped compared to other ships, their faction versions have much less market demand, so people in FW for isk don't join the Gallente Militia, creating a dramatic imbalance with the Caldari (which are possibly the highest demand) Ships/Militia. Another issue is that Incursions, from an income standpoint, draw experienced players away from the Militias. But the major problem, from what I understand, has to do with the FW sov mechanics. I would assume that if CCP can come up with sov fixes that work in null in this Winter 2011 expansion, then FW will reap some of the benefits of a functional sov mechanic.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.07.14 18:30:00 - [8]
 

"Beginner" is a strange term to use, does it mean new to militia or new to game? Smile
You can acquire standings enough for lvl4 missions in a few days of doing almost nothing thanks to the broken plexing mechanics.

Once lvl4's are unlocked you can make enough for a supercarrier in a couple of months by investing 2-3 hours per day .. the income potential has no equal except maybe for a locked down -1.0 system in deep null.


Sinikka Huiputti
Posted - 2011.07.14 19:17:00 - [9]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
"Beginner" is a strange term to use, does it mean new to militia or new to game? Smile
You can acquire standings enough for lvl4 missions in a few days of doing almost nothing thanks to the broken plexing mechanics.

Once lvl4's are unlocked you can make enough for a supercarrier in a couple of months by investing 2-3 hours per day .. the income potential has no equal except maybe for a locked down -1.0 system in deep null.




i don't think it's broken that experienced player gets to level 4 missions fast. because it would be pretty much waste for any experienced player to do level 1 missions. so there is no problem there.

if you spend time exclusively doing missions you can get pretty nice income, granted that there is no one hunting you in plexes. HOWEVER there is plenty of other ways to make isk faster, it's no "i win" button for eve by any means.

also lp stores have differences, there's much more demand for caldari items and missions are more difficult to do with higher amount of ppl in fw area = higher gain.

what has bugged me most with fw is almost non-existant rewards for actually participating in war. you get rewards for carebearing. originally idea was probably that people would go shoot people doing missions but that's not really working right now. fw sov seems more like ping pong.



Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.07.14 20:25:00 - [10]
 

Edited by: Hirana Yoshida on 14/07/2011 20:27:06
Originally by: Sinikka Huiputti
i don't think it's broken that experienced player gets to level 4 missions fast.

Read it again, it is not that it is possible that is broken but the mechanic that allows it. Hell, you could buy the bloody standings for all I care .. but when plexes that I want for RP/tags purposes are blitzed by stabbed frigs I get sad Crying or Very sad
Originally by: Sinikka Huiputti
..HOWEVER there is plenty of other ways to make isk faster, it's no "i win" button for eve by any means.

Name it, because I sure as hell have never come across a better revenue source.
Bulk invention comes close but is very vulnerable to market fluctuations.
Marketeering can get similar income, but you need a massive wallet to begin with to really make it work.
Originally by: Sinikka Huiputti
..higher amount of ppl in fw area = higher gain.

The payouts are identical to any other agent, payout is based on system security .. lowsec pays better than high-sec.
Difference is that normal missions can't be completed in 5 minutes and normal LP stores do not have the same item spread or ship discounts.
Originally by: Sinikka Huiputti
what has bugged me most with fw is almost non-existant rewards for actually..

Preaching to the choir dear, preaching to the choir Sad
Nothing worse than playing a game and getting the feeling you are wasting your time, which is why it would awesome to get some (read: any) response from Devs.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.15 17:22:00 - [11]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
"Beginner" is a strange term to use, does it mean new to militia or new to game? Smile
You can acquire standings enough for lvl4 missions in a few days of doing almost nothing thanks to the broken plexing mechanics.

Once lvl4's are unlocked you can make enough for a supercarrier in a couple of months by investing 2-3 hours per day .. the income potential has no equal except maybe for a locked down -1.0 system in deep null.




New to the game. New players to the game, with no ISK cannot make ANY money from FW. Essentially forcing wannabe PvPers to be mission standings grinders for the first 3 months in EVE.

There may be other problems, as someone else mentioned, but the problem I see is that it has an impossible barrier to entry for new players, where as other professions can support themselves for new players.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.15 17:29:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: Kaelie Onren on 15/07/2011 17:37:29
Originally by: Sinikka Huiputti

what has bugged me most with fw is almost non-existant rewards for actually participating in war. you get rewards for carebearing. originally idea was probably that people would go shoot people doing missions but that's not really working right now. fw sov seems more like ping pong.





Exactly my point. And though lvl4 missions make money in FW or normal missioning, that isn't the problem. The problem is lack of a 'beginner' -- err "NEW PLAYER" -- profession path for PvPers. FW was supposed to be it, but it fails in that regard horribly. (23 jumps to do a lvl1 mission that can get you killed and not enough reward to even cover the loss of your ships???)

Other professions have easy 'noob' paths:

PvE - Missioning
Industry - Mining
Exploration - Salvaging
Trading - NPC commodities

all of which can grow your isk and skills.

PvP - ???

Solution may be just to make the lvl1/2 FW missions pay more. I mean they earn so little LP, and the number of things you can get at the LP store that are cheap enough for a noob to buy are not really profitable to sell. Also, if it isn't this way already, LP should be rewarded for kills.

So the 2 pronged approach is
1) make sure low income players who don't have the standing yet to do lvl3/4 missions, get paid enough to replace their frigate/destroyer class ships.
2) encourage more shooting of other PCs by rewarding more cash/LP for kills. (though this may affect the veterans, so must be careful to balance)

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.15 17:45:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Bagehi
One big problem has been that because Gallente ships are generally gimped compared to other ships, their faction versions have much less market demand, so people in FW for isk don't join the Gallente Militia, creating a dramatic imbalance with the Caldari (which are possibly the highest demand) Ships/Militia. Another issue is that Incursions, from an income standpoint, draw experienced players away from the Militias. But the major problem, from what I understand, has to do with the FW sov mechanics. I would assume that if CCP can come up with sov fixes that work in null in this Winter 2011 expansion, then FW will reap some of the benefits of a functional sov mechanic.



Interesting that you mention this because I heard it was the opposite, the Caldari have more numbers in the Militia, but the Gallente top the kill boards, followed by Amarr. I have heard many self-deprecating jokes from those in the State Protectorate about their own inferiority, and how many of their numbers are actually spies from the much better organized Gallenteans. Though maybe things have changed.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.07.15 18:19:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
New to the game. New players to the game, with no ISK cannot make ANY money from FW. Essentially forcing wannabe PvPers to be mission standings grinders for the first 3 months in EVE..

You already said you had no clue (or words to that effect) when it comes to FW so why go on?

Thanks to the broken FW plexes you can take a t1 frig and get all the standings you want in a matter of days .. literally days.
After that it is bomber training for the lvl4s and you are good to go .. you should come see the farcical situation in the FW areas, 80% of all ships are alts in bombers going back and forth grinding LP.

Flynn Fetladral
Royal Order of Security Specialists
Posted - 2011.07.16 12:11:00 - [15]
 

The system needs to be looked at for sure, but just paying you a wage to be part of the Militia = free isk so that wont work. Also if your getting major LP or isk for killing pod pilots then what stops them sticking an alt in another militia and farming kills for stuff?

I love the idea that you get rewarded in FW for getting involved in PVP, but you need some PVE material too. I think it comes back to the issue that PLEXES need to be totally revamped or axed for a new system. I think at the very least PVE content in FW should not be doable solo in a stealth bomber, it should be more like incursions where you need to work as a small gang team or the whole militia. We need a system which encourages people to join FW for what it should be, awesome small gang warfare, with group PVE/PVP content.

Kaelie Onren
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.17 15:04:00 - [16]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Kaelie Onren
New to the game. New players to the game, with no ISK cannot make ANY money from FW. Essentially forcing wannabe PvPers to be mission standings grinders for the first 3 months in EVE..

You already said you had no clue (or words to that effect) when it comes to FW so why go on?

Thanks to the broken FW plexes you can take a t1 frig and get all the standings you want in a matter of days .. literally days.
After that it is bomber training for the lvl4s and you are good to go .. you should come see the farcical situation in the FW areas, 80% of all ships are alts in bombers going back and forth grinding LP.


The case I know about is a friend who quit eve because coming out of the training missions, with 2m mil to your name, he did lvl1 missions for the State, got a destroyer, lost it, lost interest in the mindless monotony of flying 25 jumps to shoot 1 NPC only to gain 150k and 100LP in mission rewards, and quit EVE.

So I don't know what this 'couple days and you should have enough to do Lvl 4s' comes from. Maybe you had a friend who tossed you 50mil to start? else where did the money to buy the stealh bomber come from?

Guess what I'm saying is how to bridge the beginner 2million to 50million isk hump (and get self sufficient enough to 'farm'?

T1 frig used was a Merlin, if that matters.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.07.17 15:15:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Kaelie Onren
....

Plexes, not missions. Run defensive plexes semi afk or offensive in a speed tanking ab frig for militia standings.
It is boring as hell but about as as riskfree and activity as you get in Eve.

Bombers are not very expensive and the time it takes to get skills trained is more than enough to acquire the funds for several.


 

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