open All Channels
seplocked EVE General Discussion
blankseplocked Killing local also kills solo and small gang pvp
 
This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 
Pages: first : previous : ... 2 3 4 5 6 7 [8] 9 10 : last (10)

Author Topic

Callduron
Posted - 2011.07.16 19:14:00 - [211]
 

Originally by: jackaloped
Originally by: Kirkland Langue
haha look at the ratter who is afraid of recon gangs in 0.0


Nope I'm not a ratter. I mostly play eve for solo and small scale pvp. Its very hard to find decent pvp this way as it is I don't want to see it completely killed off.


Oddly enough the space where there is no Local is all about solo and small scale pvp.

Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2011.07.16 20:14:00 - [212]
 

Hmm local can go and take cloaking tech with it.

That or make cloaks 900mill isk a pop

Om nom nom nom

lots of non consensual pvp and those clever clogs crying out for no local, that can't pvp without a cloaking scout crying for weeks on the forums. Yummy.


Vince Snetterton
Posted - 2011.07.16 20:35:00 - [213]
 

Perhaps a compromise re: 0.0 and high sec local both.

WH local, or lack thereof, should remain untouched.

But what be the ramifications if local only told you how many people were in system, but no specifics on players identities?

How would that impact PvP?


jackaloped
Posted - 2011.07.16 22:35:00 - [214]
 

Originally by: Vince Snetterton
Perhaps a compromise re: 0.0 and high sec local both.

WH local, or lack thereof, should remain untouched.

But what be the ramifications if local only told you how many people were in system, but no specifics on players identities?

How would that impact PvP?




I think that would impact it poorly. Are they enemies or are they friendlies? I could see sitting there wasting time scanning it out just to find they are not enemies. What corp people are in is helpful to understand if they are part of a blob or not.

I have a bad feeling about this. I use my knowledge of different local characters - like do they use a falcon alt if things start to go baddly, to help me. I think solo pvp will be a thing of the past - except for those who just gank carebears.



jackaloped
Posted - 2011.07.16 22:38:00 - [215]
 

Originally by: Callduron
Originally by: jackaloped
Originally by: Kirkland Langue
haha look at the ratter who is afraid of recon gangs in 0.0


Nope I'm not a ratter. I mostly play eve for solo and small scale pvp. Its very hard to find decent pvp this way as it is I don't want to see it completely killed off.


Oddly enough the space where there is no Local is all about solo and small scale pvp.


Not if you ask people who actually do small gang and solo pvp.

Karontin Maysubile
Posted - 2011.08.09 01:56:00 - [216]
 

Don't mean to necro a thread, but would anybody be super ****ed off if CCP were to run a two day experiment where they applied Wormhole local to all systems?

It would be an excellent opportunity to test the waters and see whether or not people like it, and to see how many bots either decide to stay docked or die after missing the news.

Ris Dnalor
Minmatar
Fleet of Doom
Posted - 2011.08.09 02:15:00 - [217]
 

Originally by: jackaloped
Ok I know lots of people like the idea of no local. Many people like to gank pve ships and think that no local will help. But there are other forms of pvp in eve - if just barely.

Local is a very very important tool for anyone who roams solo or with a small gang.

Killing local is going to benefit blobbing tactics more than it hurts blobbing. Hence removing local is a pro blobbing move.

For those who want to argue that removing local is going to be better for pvp please consider facts. Wormholes have no local. Yet there is only a fraction of pvp in those systems as compared with null sec and low sec. This was established by ccps qens. No matter whether you consider the amount of pvp per person or per system, pvp does not happen in wormholes in anything close to what happens in null and low sec.

The fact is a few people like fitting scan probes to their ships and scanning around but most people think its nothing but a pia.

Conclusion: Ok it appears ccp must remove local to fully implement incarna. But please offer something that is as close a replacement to local as you can. Automatically let us know who is in system so we don't have to waste more time scanning around only to find the system is empty. Make it easier to find pvp, not longer.

Flame suit on.


I'll be solo and small gang with no local and I'll be very very happy.... until I realize everybody there has embraced their inner romulan Twisted Evil

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.08.11 14:04:00 - [218]
 

Originally by: Karontin Maysubile
Don't mean to necro a thread, but would anybody be super ****ed off if CCP were to run a two day experiment where they applied Wormhole local to all systems?

It would be an excellent opportunity to test the waters and see whether or not people like it, and to see how many bots either decide to stay docked or die after missing the news.


I wouldn't play those 2 days. There would be no point engaging anything knowing its likely there is just a huge blob that is either sitting there cloaked or ready to jump in.

Sure I think the bots would have a hard time the first two days until they updated their macro software.

But after that the bots would have an even bigger advantage than real people. Bots will have it all automated where as real people will have even less automation than now. This will actually widen the gap in favor of bots.


CCP already offered no local in the form of wormholes. A few are interested and like it. But the vast majority prefer other places.

BoBoZoBo
MGroup9
Posted - 2011.08.11 14:26:00 - [219]
 

Edited by: BoBoZoBo on 11/08/2011 14:27:58

WHs have no local and that hasn't killed solo/small PVPing by ANY stretch of the imagination. In fact, it promotes small gang PVP so...no, you are VERY incorrect.


Aedeal
Posted - 2011.08.11 14:28:00 - [220]
 

So no local = no PvP?

Step into a WH and try and farm something. I dare you.

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.11 14:29:00 - [221]
 

No local does not kill PvP in wormholes. So if it kills PvP for you HTFU.

/thread.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.08.11 17:13:00 - [222]
 

Originally by: Cipher Jones
No local does not kill PvP in wormholes. So if it kills PvP for you HTFU.

/thread.


Look at the actual statistics in the QEN of how much pvp happens in wormholes. Its far far less than low sec or null sec.




Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.11 17:22:00 - [223]
 

Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Cipher Jones
No local does not kill PvP in wormholes. So if it kills PvP for you HTFU.

/thread.


Look at the actual statistics in the QEN of how much pvp happens in wormholes. Its far far less than low sec or null sec.






Yeah but its the highest per capita. Post the numbers.

grunf Ijonen
Posted - 2011.08.11 17:25:00 - [224]
 

Originally by: Cearain

Look at the actual statistics in the QEN of how much pvp happens in wormholes. Its far far less than low sec or null sec.



You can't compare that at all. First theres no way near the same trafic and residents, and second people that prefer pvp, usually arnt in a wormhole since its not accessable by gate. Comparing as you did is the same as comparing fish with birds Rolling Eyes

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.11 17:26:00 - [225]
 

Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Cipher Jones
No local does not kill PvP in wormholes. So if it kills PvP for you HTFU.

/thread.


Look at the actual statistics in the QEN of how much pvp happens in wormholes. Its far far less than low sec or null sec.



Like Cypher says, it's more PvP per person. Wormholes are only 3, 3.5% of the population of Eve and there's plenty of PvP to be had.

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.11 17:45:00 - [226]
 

Just looked up the past 2 Qen's.

WH space was 2.4% of the population, 4% of the kills as of q3 2010

You can go to WH space right now and find PvP if you want it. Fact is most people don't because there is no local and it is hard PvP.

Which brings me back to my first post in this thread, of which the gist is HTFU. You can get PvP in EvE anytime you want it. If no local stops you from PvP you were a "carebear" [sic] to begin with.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.08.11 17:46:00 - [227]
 

Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Cipher Jones
No local does not kill PvP in wormholes. So if it kills PvP for you HTFU.

/thread.


Look at the actual statistics in the QEN of how much pvp happens in wormholes. Its far far less than low sec or null sec.



Like Cypher says, it's more PvP per person. Wormholes are only 3, 3.5% of the population of Eve and there's plenty of PvP to be had.


No your arguing against math. Wormholes are worse than null and low sec per capita and per system.

The Quarterly reports tend to show low sec is the place where a player can find the most pvp. We have to use the last two reports to get a picture of where the pvp mostly happens but low sec appears to have the most pvp per person and per system.

Population of each space per Q2 report of population:

Low sec: 8% or @56,960

WH: 7% @49,840

HS: 53% or @ 377360

Null sec 32% 227.84

Q3 report said that there were 800 thousand kills in that quarter.
29% or 232k of those kills were in low sec
4% or 32,000 of those kills in wormholes
16% or 128,000 of those kills were in high sec
And 51% or 408,000 were in null sec.

Ok on a per capita basis then we see that low sec yields about 2.3 xs as many kills/losses as null sec. Low sec gets about @ 5xs as many kills/losses as in wormholes.

If we look at the amount of pvp per system we can see low sec is still the best place to be.

Low sec (641 systems): 361 kills per system
Null sec (3304 systems): 123 kills per system
Worm hole(2499 systems): 12 kills per system.


Now the QEN does not separate null sec into npc null sec and sov holding null sec. I wish it would. I would anticipate that npc null sec would be as good or even better than low sec. Which would also mean that player sov null sec is even worse for pvp.

Suitonia
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.08.11 17:59:00 - [228]
 

Originally by: grunf Ijonen
Originally by: Cearain

Look at the actual statistics in the QEN of how much pvp happens in wormholes. Its far far less than low sec or null sec.



You can't compare that at all. First theres no way near the same trafic and residents, and second people that prefer pvp, usually arnt in a wormhole since its not accessable by gate. Comparing as you did is the same as comparing fish with birds Rolling Eyes


People who prefer PvP usually aren't in wormholes because of the general type of PvP, logistics involved to get kills, time involved to get kills, and by your own admission, wormholes houses majority of PvE type players who are there to make a profit rather than to get kills, although there are some larger wormhole alliances or corporations who certainly do PvP, typically these gangs are no-where near engagable for the average girl and her few friends.

- Typically, you will be ganking players in wormhole sites or at safespots. There is very little fights in wormhole space that aren't massively one-sided and expected to happen. The majority of players there are there to make money, they don't want to fight or to have interaction with another player.
- There is a large amount of logistics involved to get kills in wormhole space. You are forced to use 2 accounts or fly a ship which can both pvp and has a probe launcher.
- Typically, pvp gangs in wormhole space are designed around the fact that they will be engaging in long drawn out engagements with possibly taking Sleeper aggro, as such, they are often heavy on logistics and t3s. As such, there is a fairly huge DPS requirement to engage them, and with their huge EHP and remote repair potential, you have to bring massive amounts of neuts or damage, which generally means you will need to bring a large amount of players too, see where this is going....
- There is much higher timesink involved in finding players, let alone catching them.

I thought I'd get that out of the way. No Local works in wormhole space because of the time and logistics commitments needed to even find players to get kills, it doesn't make sense in 0.0 and will almost certainly reduce the amount of PvP found for small gangs.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.11 18:04:00 - [229]
 

Caerain and Cipher seem to have dramatically different numbers.

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.11 18:04:00 - [230]
 

Edited by: Cipher Jones on 11/08/2011 18:11:43
Edited by: Cipher Jones on 11/08/2011 18:05:40
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Cipher Jones
No local does not kill PvP in wormholes. So if it kills PvP for you HTFU.

/thread.


Look at the actual statistics in the QEN of how much pvp happens in wormholes. Its far far less than low sec or null sec.



Like Cypher says, it's more PvP per person. Wormholes are only 3, 3.5% of the population of Eve and there's plenty of PvP to be had.


No your arguing against math. Wormholes are worse than null and low sec per capita and per system.

The Quarterly reports tend to show low sec is the place where a player can find the most pvp. We have to use the last two reports to get a picture of where the pvp mostly happens but low sec appears to have the most pvp per person and per system.

Population of each space per Q2 report of population:

Low sec: 8% or @56,960

WH: 7% @49,840

HS: 53% or @ 377360

Null sec 32% 227.84

Q3 report said that there were 800 thousand kills in that quarter.
29% or 232k of those kills were in low sec
4% or 32,000 of those kills in wormholes
16% or 128,000 of those kills were in high sec
And 51% or 408,000 were in null sec.

Ok on a per capita basis then we see that low sec yields about 2.3 xs as many kills/losses as null sec. Low sec gets about @ 5xs as many kills/losses as in wormholes.

If we look at the amount of pvp per system we can see low sec is still the best place to be.

Low sec (641 systems): 361 kills per system
Null sec (3304 systems): 123 kills per system
Worm hole(2499 systems): 12 kills per system.


Now the QEN does not separate null sec into npc null sec and sov holding null sec. I wish it would. I would anticipate that npc null sec would be as good or even better than low sec. Which would also mean that player sov null sec is even worse for pvp.



Lol, where did you get the 49000 figure for WH population? In the 2010 q2 qen the population was 16,800, and in the q3 2010 it was 18,000. According to that number the population of wh space was <2.5% but the kills were 4%.

You are mixing numbers and percentages from separate reports.

If you have more recent than 2010 q2 QEN to get your WH population numbers from, also take your PvP numbers from the same report. Otherwise the data is erroneous. Thats why I went back that far.

Quote:
Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Caerain and Cipher seem to have dramatically different numbers.



Because I used numbers from the same QEN.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.08.11 18:38:00 - [231]
 

Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Caerain and Cipher seem to have dramatically different numbers.


Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Caerain and Cipher seem to have dramatically different numbers.


I did miscalculate the 3rd quarter numbers. I didn't have the 4th quarter report which gave the 3rd quarter distribution. Here is the third quater distribution according to the 4th quater report of population (page 10) and the 3rd quarter report of kills per part of eve.http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q3-2010.pdf page 9:

low sec: 6.95% of the population but accounts for 29% of all the kills
Null sec: 11.07 of the population and accounts for 51% of the kills
wh 2.42% of the population and accounts for only 4% of the kills.

So we get:
4.17 kills per pilot low sec
4.6 kills per pilot null sec
and
1.65 kills per pilot wh

Still pretty clear that wormholes aren't the place to go for pvp.

Moreover what Suitonia said is also true.

If you want to know what helps small scale and solo pvp ask people who do small scale and solo pvp.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.11 18:48:00 - [232]
 

Your numbers are invalidated by something rather significant... gate camps. Gate camps produce an unproportionate number of kills, and certainly cannot be considered "small scale PvP"... hell, they can't be considered PvP at all.

Remove all kills from gate camps, then tell us the numbers. Give us numbers of kills with no more than one or two ships difference between the two sides. Camps and Blobs aren't PvP.

Cipher Jones
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.08.11 19:01:00 - [233]
 

Originally by: Cearain

Still pretty clear that wormholes aren't the place to go for 1000 man fleet fights.



Your blob is calling. If you can get off mommys tit long enough, try PvP without local. I'm a carebear fanboy CCP alt troll according to the forums, so if I can do it and you cant that makes you pretty low on the totem pole.

I guess you missed the implication that I was making in the first place, so I will say it loud and clear for all to hear...

"If you need local to PvP, you are a *****".

That doesn't mean I dont approve of anyones in game playstyle choices, its just callin it like I see's it.

Dub Step
Minmatar
Death To Everyone But Us
Posted - 2011.08.11 19:02:00 - [234]
 

Player versus Player, obviously gatecamps fall into this category.

What you mean to say is it is lazy PVP.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.08.11 19:16:00 - [235]
 

Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Your numbers are invalidated by something rather significant... gate camps. Gate camps produce an unproportionate number of kills, and certainly cannot be considered "small scale PvP"... hell, they can't be considered PvP at all.

Remove all kills from gate camps, then tell us the numbers. Give us numbers of kills with no more than one or two ships difference between the two sides. Camps and Blobs aren't PvP.


While I agree gate camps are lame pvp, I don't think this would apply that much in low sec. Yes there are gate camps but by an large with gate guns preventing fast locking ships and no bubbles they aren't that big of a factor.

Do people camp wormholes? I don't know. It seems to me wormholes would be a bad place to go solo unless you were just looking to gank people farming/mining.

Also I would bet a larger percent of the kills in wormholes are situations where the victim didn't even have a point fit. Again people who like to fight pve fit ships, so they can always warp off, will likely prefer no local. Also people who blob will like no local.

But for people who just like to find fun small scale pvp fights this will kill it off.

Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
Heretic Army
B A N E
Posted - 2011.08.11 19:25:00 - [236]
 

Originally by: Cearain

While I agree gate camps are lame pvp, I don't think this would apply that much in low sec. Yes there are gate camps but by an large with gate guns preventing fast locking ships and no bubbles they aren't that big of a factor.


Still the most violent systems in low/null according to dotlan are the gatecamp hotspots by a huge margin, apart from now and again when you have a 500v1000 fleet engagement in null.

And no, gateguns do not prevent ships like the Lachesis from instalocking frigates and even the slower interceptors given the campers are somewhat competent. Heck, we've been using the Keres as gate tackler under sentry fire and it works just fine.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.11 19:25:00 - [237]
 

Originally by: Cearain

While I agree gate camps are lame pvp, I don't think this would apply that much in low sec. Yes there are gate camps but by an large with gate guns preventing fast locking ships and no bubbles they aren't that big of a factor.

Do people camp wormholes? I don't know. It seems to me wormholes would be a bad place to go solo unless you were just looking to gank people farming/mining.

Also I would bet a larger percent of the kills in wormholes are situations where the victim didn't even have a point fit. Again people who like to fight pve fit ships, so they can always warp off, will likely prefer no local. Also people who blob will like no local.

But for people who just like to find fun small scale pvp fights this will kill it off.


Occasionally someone will try camping holes, but unless you know a specific target in there absolutely has to come to you it's pretty hit and miss. You need to count on someone scanning that particular hole down then coming through it. Low sec camps, however, ... we recently had teh frigate race, jumped through one good sized camp. They didn't get my mag, yet the wrecks floating around certainly indicated they were having pretty good luck with what they were doing.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.08.11 19:26:00 - [238]
 

Originally by: Cipher Jones
....I'm a carebear fanboy CCP alt troll according to the forums, ...


Maybe that is because you are a carebear troll and you make yourself look foolish posting in threads you know nothing about.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.08.11 19:34:00 - [239]
 

Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Cearain

While I agree gate camps are lame pvp, I don't think this would apply that much in low sec. Yes there are gate camps but by an large with gate guns preventing fast locking ships and no bubbles they aren't that big of a factor.

Do people camp wormholes? I don't know. It seems to me wormholes would be a bad place to go solo unless you were just looking to gank people farming/mining.

Also I would bet a larger percent of the kills in wormholes are situations where the victim didn't even have a point fit. Again people who like to fight pve fit ships, so they can always warp off, will likely prefer no local. Also people who blob will like no local.

But for people who just like to find fun small scale pvp fights this will kill it off.


Occasionally someone will try camping holes, but unless you know a specific target in there absolutely has to come to you it's pretty hit and miss. You need to count on someone scanning that particular hole down then coming through it. Low sec camps, however, ... we recently had teh frigate race, jumped through one good sized camp. They didn't get my mag, yet the wrecks floating around certainly indicated they were having pretty good luck with what they were doing.


You can't base this sort of thing on one episode. Lots of fights take place at gates that is true. But it is not always just gate campers killing people who do not know what they are doing.

In any case with no local you will see gate camping blobs increase not decrease. Now when I go into a system I can see local. If there is a huge number of hostiles I know I may want to warp off of the next gate a bit. No local I will have to do hassle every time even when no one is in the system.

Bottom line with all of this is no local means you will be spending more of your eve time searching out empty systems or systems that don't have any hostiles. This means eve will require us to spend even more time looking for decent fights. Currently it takes about 2 hours to find a decent fight. That is already too long.

Jith
Posted - 2011.08.11 19:35:00 - [240]
 

I vote for removing local.


Pages: first : previous : ... 2 3 4 5 6 7 [8] 9 10 : last (10)

This thread is older than 90 days and has been locked due to inactivity.


 


The new forums are live

Please adjust your bookmarks to https://forums.eveonline.com

These forums are archived and read-only