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Ned Black
Posted - 2011.07.15 06:33:00 - [181]
 

Originally by: jackaloped

It doesn't change anything. There is a given number of people in low sec, null sec, or wormholes at any given time. Those people in low sec are getting 5 times the number of kills that people in "no local worm holes" are getting.

You may say its because wormholes attract more pveers than pvpers. I would agree. A big reason is because no local sucks for most pvpers. If it didn't there would be more pvpers there.


Spoken like the 0.0 CSMs in the last CSM minutes... that is... you have no clue yet you KNOW how things are...

Lets just say you are wrong. Carebears MAY live in low end wormholes, but most of the people living in deep 0.0 is much more hard core PvPers than just about any 0.0 dweeb out there. I dont know any other place where one fleet would attack another fleet twice its size just for the laughts...

Go to any 0.0 system and you will see the residents scatter like roaches until they have a fleet at least 5:1 ready to go. The reason 0.0 has so many kills is not because of PvP... its because of the blobs where dosens or hundreds of ships get pwned... now if you like to call that PvP then go right ahead, but it really isnt when you have something to compare it to. In 0.0 you are a mindless drone in the fleets. In WHs every ship and every tactic counts.

Originally by: jackaloped
A big part of "the major restriction" that prevents you from covering more wh systems faster is no local. If you had local would see the hole is empty and move on like you do with low sec and null sec. No local means you have to waste time scanning in an empty system.

So a major restriction for roaming in wormholes preventing pvp is no local.

Wormholes and no local works for pvp backed up by numbers? The numbers show that you get 5xs as many fights per person per hour in low sec. I think you are the one who is twisting facts if you think this shows making low sec more like wormholes would be good for pvp.


Sit on a gate in lowsec/nullsec where you have a pipe and someone is bound to come there a couple of times a day. Sit on a WH for a day and the chance of someone coming there is not exactly great.

The missing local have pretty much nothing to do with how fast you move in WH space. The only thing determining that is how fast you are to scan and how many sigs you have to scan. And finding out if someone is around and active is not a big issue. It takes anything from a few seconds to a few minutes to determine if somone is active in there or not... but on the other hand... you have no clue if you have a 20 man gang is sitting in a deep safe just waiting for you to bite. With local you would instantly see that there were a frackload of people in local no matter where they would try to hide.

How many places would you be able to go to if the stargates changed places once a day and you had to scan them and 20 other sigs down in EACH system? My guess is that you would not be doing very long roams. So in that aspect PvP in WH PvP is less... but not because we are adverse to it, opportunities simply are more uncommon in WH space than in low/null.

PvP in WHs are much more random than in low/null simply because you can never know if someone will be there or not.

I have said it before... local turns boys into (cry)babies.

Crellion
Parental Control
Merciless.
Posted - 2011.07.15 06:46:00 - [182]
 


Abolishing local turns pvp into a competition of who can put the larger blob together.

If you are a pvper and are advocating for this you must be horribly bad at pvp and desperate for a 50% chance to win.

I pitty you.


Zey Nadar
Gallente
Unknown Soldiers
Posted - 2011.07.15 07:13:00 - [183]
 

Removing local would then require people to keep spamming their scanner every couple seconds. Which would, in my eyes, be really really boring. I think we can do without it.

Furb Killer
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.15 08:12:00 - [184]
 

Originally by: jackaloped
Originally by: Merdaneth
Removing local favors those who are willing to take risks in PVP.




No it will favor the those who like to sit in a big blob waiting for someone to take the bait. It may also benefit those who like to gate camp (which is really a form of blobbing). Finally it may benefit those who like to gank people in a pve fit ships.

What I describe above are the *least* risky forms of pvp in eve.

The most risky form of pvp in eve is going solo or in a very small gang looking for other pvpers. Removing local will really hurt them.

So its actually the opposite of what you say.

This, removing local without a good substitute (and yes while CCP claims they are going to make one, with the time frame left and them not having a clue yet and them being CCP this can only end in disaster) only favours the risk averse. It will increase the amount of completely one-sided ganks and decrease the ammount of good fights. Aditionally it will result in far fewer people actually living in 0.0, since you already make far less in most 0.0 than in high sec and then you also get ganked without anything you can do about it. (And no in eve when pve'ing the only counter to a pvp'er is docking up in time. Also since these days everyone titan bridges on everything that moves doing it in groups also doesnt really help).

Finally the only ones that are barely affected are the bots, since they can press the dir scanner every 5 seconds without becoming crazy.

Ned Black
Posted - 2011.07.15 08:24:00 - [185]
 

Originally by: Furb Killer
Finally the only ones that are barely affected are the bots, since they can press the dir scanner every 5 seconds without becoming crazy.


Lets just say that there is a reason that bots are very uncommon in WH space... I think I have only ever seen one bot in WH space... but that bot was killed soon after we discovered him... I have stoped counting the number of bots I have seen in 0.0 and highsec a long time ago.

That bot can sit there and spam directional every 2 seconds for all I care. If I get a whiff of him he will die regardless. He may warp off the second he sees probes, but what you do then is to scan the place down and sit there and wait...

When he gets back I use a little quote from Rednecks

Your a.s.s is grass and I'm the lawnmover

Grog Barrel
Posted - 2011.07.15 08:37:00 - [186]
 

Edited by: Grog Barrel on 15/07/2011 08:40:03
Edited by: Grog Barrel on 15/07/2011 08:37:14
Originally by: Crellion

Abolishing local turns pvp into a competition of who can put the larger blob together.

If you are a pvper and are advocating for this you must be horribly bad at pvp and desperate for a 50% chance to win.

I pitty you.




The interesting part of this change though, would be the amount of casualities vastly increasing, making it more real somehow. For example your fleet is supposed to join the train/meet in a specific system, where a Titan/Bridge is going be the gate to the action; people will start gathering and moving to said system, in small groups as usual. This opens a little window of action, which right now can be avoided pretty easy. This window can deliver some fun to all sides, since unexpected engagements may/will occur, often before fleets are "ready" to fight.

I wonder how's the point of view of people from Dark Side, Merciless and the like.

baltec1
Posted - 2011.07.15 09:26:00 - [187]
 

Originally by: Crellion

Abolishing local turns pvp into a competition of who can put the larger blob together.

If you are a pvper and are advocating for this you must be horribly bad at pvp and desperate for a 50% chance to win.

I pitty you.




Because this doesnt happen nowRolling Eyes

Galmas
Posted - 2011.07.15 09:45:00 - [188]
 

I think most of what you wrote there is ... well... far away from the reality.

Me and my corp live in w-space more or less since it got released and the best part about it is the absence of the instant local channel.

It sounds terribly wrong to us that there is an intel tool (local channel) that shows you whoever is in a whole solar system which is actually a massively large piece space.
It gives the impression that New Eden is a very small place.

I personally experience the size of space much better in w-space.

We all would love to see local vanish in more or less all systems of New Eden.

The best small gang pvp in Eve you can currently get in w-space BECAUSE there is no local channel. Unfortunately it's mostly ganking folks doing pve lately since we find there are fewer people around during the last months (that might just be because it's summer in most parts of the world atm).

TL;DR
REMOVE LOCAL CHANNEL COMPLETELY; NO REPLACEMENT OF ANY KIND

Cheers
Gal

Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2011.07.15 10:38:00 - [189]
 

Originally by: Omara Otawan
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 14/07/2011 19:06:53
Originally by: jackaloped

The amount of pvp per capita is extremely low in wormholes. Its not just low in total number of kills. Wormholes are by far the most peaceful places outside of high sec.


No, you just do not understand the primary issue with these figures.

Lowsec has quite a large portion of 'weekend warriors', players that go to lowsec for pvp but do not live there, i.e. they return to hisec to log off. Same goes for nullsec, many roamers leave for lowsec or hisec after they got their pvp fix.

People do not do that in wormhole space, because wormholes have this annoying tendency to spit you out in the middle of nowhere when your entry hole collapses.


Population data is skewed, simple as that. Pvp per capita is actually pretty damn high for wormholes, more so considering the major restrictions for 'roaming gang' gameplay that leads to people rarely covering more than 5 systems per day as opposed to 20+ in lowsec or 50+ for nullsec roams.

It clearly shows having local in delayed mode works, backed up by numbers (if you actually are able to interpret them right).


I lived in a WH for 3 months and I went there with the intention to PVP in WH & have random low sec exits to also pew pew. I got exactly 3 fights in my WH, before I decided it was waste of time as most of my fights ended up happening in low sec.

I had a C2 with static C2/low sec exits. It seemed like every time I check my c2 static it always had a POS with AFK people or corps full of players not logged in. Could of been time zone issues but most of the time I ended up finding action through the low sec exit instead.

I guess I could of had the 1 WH in EVE that never had visitors but I suspect most PVP in WH's happens with systems that have high sec exits and that PVP likely comes from people entering the WH from high sec to gank random people running anoms.

Meaning as I said earlier, no local is good if you just want to gank care bears, but it will suck for those of us actually looking for a fight.

AllYourBaseAre BelongToUs
Posted - 2011.07.15 11:02:00 - [190]
 

Edited by: AllYourBaseAre BelongToUs on 15/07/2011 11:05:09
Originally by: Mutnin
Meaning as I said earlier, no local is good if you just want to gank care bears, but it will suck for those of us actually looking for a fight.


That was your problem. You never actually went looking. All you did was log in and expect travelers to be already in you wspace system waiting for you like some house dog all excited to see its master when he gets home from work.

Again, another person who is afraid of the unknown and in his own words, afraid of :effort:.

zloxlo
Posted - 2011.07.15 11:20:00 - [191]
 

Edited by: zloxlo on 15/07/2011 11:22:19
If SOLO pvp is to be fixed then the reason why people are in space also needs to be fixed.

I went solo pvping the other night and found countless [DRF territory] 2 man tengu owned systems with enough hubs, havens and sanctums to fill your eyeballs, and yet when you warp to them they aren't there..... make the plexes and belts more like RL i.e. warp disrupter and scramble [like WH] one way to fix how easy it is to macro mine, RMT and plex [in peace].

edit: plexes were active with wrecks just no ships there to kill.... in my opinion 0.0 is too easy, you can watch local and be aligned for when someone enteres it - no wonder solo hunting is dead and the only tactic used these days is to sign out in a plex and try the log on trap.

knobber Jobbler
Holding Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.15 11:20:00 - [192]
 

Quite a simple solution to this really.

You talk in local, you appear in local. If you don't talk in local, you don't appear in it.

Players need a way of talking to other people in system still.

My 2p: It will slow down finding PVP but will speed up engagements.

zloxlo
Posted - 2011.07.15 11:23:00 - [193]
 

Originally by: knobber Jobbler
Quite a simple solution to this really.

You talk in local, you appear in local. If you don't talk in local, you don't appear in it.

Players need a way of talking to other people in system still.

My 2p: It will slow down finding PVP but will speed up engagements.


I find the talky bit the most annoying part about local with the amount of smack and abuse people write and i'd be alot happier if they got rid of it all together.

jackaloped
Posted - 2011.07.15 13:33:00 - [194]
 

Originally by: Lilith Velkor
Originally by: jackaloped
Originally by: Merdaneth
Removing local favors those who are willing to take risks in PVP.




No it will favor the those who like to sit in a big blob waiting for someone to take the bait. It may also benefit those who like to gate camp (which is really a form of blobbing). Finally it may benefit those who like to gank people in a pve fit ships.



I dont think you pvp at all to be honest judging by your comments in this thread. Lets assume local gets removed, without any additional intel tools.


For solo pvpers it doesnt matter, you take the bait and the blobbers jump in from the system next door anyway. You dont see them now, you dont see them then, nothing changes. Finding targets is not much more difficult, in a typical lowsec system 3/4 of people are docked and no valid targets anyway, you always need your scanner anyway.


For gatecampers it gets a lot worse. Local is the most important safety tool when gatecamping. You see hostile fleets coming with your scouts in the systems one jump out, you see people sneaking a fleet into your system. You see cloakies that might open a cyno for hotdrops, or just tackle your ships until their backup is there from three jumps out.



I don't mean to be rude but if you don't understand this its because you do not solo pvp against other pvpers.

With local: If you see local filled with 60 people from the same corp as the person you are about to engage - well you might take a pass on that. If you engage someone and suddenly you see local spike big you can try to gtfo before they get there.

With no local: The 60 people from the gang can be sitting there cloaked within 5k of you when you take the bait and you will have no clue. If they were in a different system you won't know it until they appear on your dscan - which likely means they are already in warp and its likely too late to leave. Plus when you are fighting a tough fight you will find you have plenty to do beside clicking a dscan button.

There are several reasons (not mentioned) why people who solo roam to fight other pvpers find local a huge help. But I see there are lots of people who don't solo roam looking to fight other pvpers saying how it doesn't matter.

If you do not have a killboard that shows you can solo roam against other pvpers please take it from the people who do. I'm not a great pvper. But I do solo roam. My api is on battleclinic. "Cearain" and "Cearaen" are my pvp characters.

I'm not listing this to brag at all- my killboard is nothing to brag about - but it does show I solo pvp against other pvpers. I am just posting this because I see allot of people waying in on this who obviously do not solo pvp against other pvpers.


Attrezzo Pox
Amarr
The Concordiat
Concordiat Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.15 14:53:00 - [195]
 

Have you *EVER* solo pvped? Provided they leave directional scanning in the game removing local from 0.0 will boost small gang pvp significantly. Even as it is most blobs don't carry scan probes except for the novelty because they rarely work. Only morons sit in space at the first safe spot they hit, so in space, as in life, darwin wins and the sucker is podded.

Secondly, when trying to reduce blobbing. Everyone living is up against a massive physical reality. More numbers == greater chance of success. Unless you can change physics this will always hold true. Even changing game mechanics won't prevent this from being the case in one form or another. Stop whining and get friends, or better, pick targets more carefully.

In every conceivable way removing local will do wonders for pvp, solo and otherwise. Reducing blobbing is a pipe dream by any measure. Where there are people working together they will quickly realize more people will enhance their ability to survive. What removing local does is forces increased risk of commitment.

If you see a tasty morsel pop through a gate, you immediately think " Do I want to blow it up?" If you engage that target you are effectively committed to the fight. There will be a consequence and naturally you want to win. What factors into your reasoning? What makes you determine whether or not you should engage? Ship-type, pilot, alliance. And .... If a GAGILLION OF HIS BUDDIES ARE IN LOCAL! Everyone wants to win the fight, but someone has to lose in order for it to happen. If it is utterly clear to the loser that he will lose then he's going to run away.
The fix is to make it harder to decide whether or not you're going to lose a fight. This means if you want to win you can't be as stupid as you are now. It won't be blaringly obvious that you're about to get ganked. Instead mistakes will be made. The most important thing in a system will be intel.
This means systems will have more than one scout. Perhaps scout alts will be the next fad. Blobs will meet at gates and be forced into a guessing game. No more looking at local for exact numbers, you have to guess. The intel channel wouldn't be filled with station spinners, they'd have to get out and actually scan. Bait will be more attractive and more deadly. Blob engagements will be more dangerous because of inherit lack of intel so they may even take place in multiple parts to prevent getting outganked and losing everything.
Blob fleets will carry more risk. That is to say, as it is now if you're outblobbed you just run. In the future, with no local, you probably won't have enough time to get exact numbers so running smaller fleets in the same area would be advantageous. A smaller fleet poses less risk of total destruction in one engagement, would be able to find more targets because of the tiny map footprint, would make it harder to determine total numbers, and could re-group to form a bigger fleet if it's decided that's needed for a larger engagement.

With no local, gate camps and station camps would be solo affairs and short lived, there would be too much risk to park 5 bil isk machs on a gate when you can be jumped by a recon crew at any time.

We might see the true dawn of the stealth bomber tackle.


Attrezzo Pox
Amarr
The Concordiat
Concordiat Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.15 15:02:00 - [196]
 

Hell even carebears might like the idea. Poking around at sites, local isn't scary because there isn't one, so they won't find you as easy. Now all you gotta do is keep an eye out for scan probes and jet when you see em. But don't come back, they'll finish the scan job on those rats you were blasting and be waiting for you if you go back... So move on. Finish the mission later or find another complex. But that's the solo pve game... When your friends are on it takes a different form. You spread out, you have damage dealers fit cloaks, set up scouts watching the gates for jump ins. You have scouts watch directional just in case. The scout in the next system sees a blob land on the gate. They send in a few scouts and as they jump your dmg dealers disengage and cloak up. Logistics cloaks too. The enemy scouts find your tanks poking about and start scanning them down. Scout reports enemy numbers lower than your own... It's on. Your in-system scouts warp deep and de-cloak ready to move in and tackle. The enemy scouts close in and tackle your tanks and the blob jumps and begins to warp into the Complex. As they warp your tackles warp shortly after them. They enter the complex and all hell breaks loose. dmg dealing ships uncloak everywhere, logistics starts repping the tanks you had set up for bait, tackle scouts come in and enclose the enemy fleet and tear it to pieces.

None of that can happen unless there is no local.

Attrezzo Pox
Amarr
The Concordiat
Concordiat Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.15 15:21:00 - [197]
 

I can see some reasoning about blobbing getting bigger... That's all well and good, but it would be silly to run a 30 man fleet destroying every available target with no local, why? Because 30 people isn't all that many. It's easy to imagine a larger fleet that could tear you apart of which that target you're lusting over is just a single scout. One way to combat this is to have several scouts out a few jumps. Or to cover more than a few gates. But this leaves them open to attack from a solo ganker... you.
The ONLY way to fully mitigate this it to bring ludicrous numbers. 100+ Basically guarantee you're the bigger fleet. But that has a major drawback for an intelligent solo player. If the solo pvper has home-field advantage and friends that will report fleet movements then any shmuck down the line would very likely report a stupidly large fleet moving down the pipe. You'd be able to see it on the map clear as a spotlight on a christmas tree.

Bottom line, the way you solo changes. But as to it being possible... Hell yeah it would be! I'll probably go back to it exclusively!

jackaloped
Posted - 2011.07.15 18:14:00 - [198]
 

Originally by: Attrezzo Pox
Have you *EVER* solo pvped? ....


Yes I have solo pvped. That is why when you look at my Battle clinic kills under the column "involved parties" you will see the number 1 listed with many of my kills.
http://eve.battleclinic.com/killboard/combat_record.php?type=player&name=Cearain&page=1#kills

As for you I have gone back 2 years and have not seen a single solo kill other than a few pods you caught.

So again I don't mean to seem rude but until you can demonstrate that you know how to solo pvp against other pvp ships in eve, I'm not really interested in listening to you tell me how it is done.

Originally by: Attrezzo Pox
Stop whining and get friends, or better, pick targets more carefully.



What will be the solution for people who like to solo pvp? Get more people. Well then it wouldnít be solo pvp anymore would it? So the solution is just donít solo pvp anymore. Nice.

Iím sorry but I just have to ask: Why do you post in this thread when you clearly donít know what you are talking about?

I mean I see all sorts of threads talking about things in eve that I donít do. I never feel the urge to post there and presume to tell everyone how it is done. Why do you?

Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
Heretic Army
B A N E
Posted - 2011.07.15 18:15:00 - [199]
 

Edited by: Lilith Velkor on 15/07/2011 18:31:01

Originally by: jackaloped

I don't mean to be rude but if you don't understand this its because you do not solo pvp against other pvpers.

With local: If you see local filled with 60 people from the same corp as the person you are about to engage - well you might take a pass on that. If you engage someone and suddenly you see local spike big you can try to gtfo before they get there.

With no local: The 60 people from the gang can be sitting there cloaked within 5k of you when you take the bait and you will have no clue. If they were in a different system you won't know it until they appear on your dscan - which likely means they are already in warp and its likely too late to leave. Plus when you are fighting a tough fight you will find you have plenty to do beside clicking a dscan button.



Oh, I understand perfectly well (and I mean I not only understand the words, but also see the reasoning behind). You want to be sure your target is alone before engaging. This is exactly what is wrong with this game, people always want a safety net.

You analogy doesnt hold up by the way, unless you engage only when you and the target are the only people in local. For all you know, the random neutral could be his falcon alt. So nothing changes, unless you only engage when the target is the only neutral.

Now as far as the 60 guys cloaked next to the bait goes, for all they know there could be 250 more guys cloaked waiting to pounce on them when they decloak, goes both ways. All in all, the gankers that want safety in numbers have it a lot worse, nothing changes for those that dont need it.

Originally by: jackaloped

There are several reasons (not mentioned) why people who solo roam to fight other pvpers find local a huge help. But I see there are lots of people who don't solo roam looking to fight other pvpers saying how it doesn't matter.



If your definition of solo pvp is making sure the target is alone before engaging him, maybe also making sure he has less skillpoints, being able to check killboards for possible fittings, then it will be a problem for you.

However, the only valid definition of solo pvp is you fighting alone (bar a probing alt maybe). Does not mean the target has to be alone, engaging a group of people just to find out if you can kill something and get away with it is the most fun you will get when soloing. I've had some great fights against relatively large gangs solo (had a few 1v20+), the sense of achievement you get when taking out a few and get away is overwhelming.

The problem I have typically when trying to get a solo fight is people looking me up in local, and refusing to fight even many against one because my corp is based within a few jumps. Even if they have scouts next door showing them its clear.

This needs to change, people need to learn to take risks again. Removing local is a step in that direction. It will be painful (I use local intel a lot too, and its definitely useful), but it will help solo pvp and small gang pvp while hurting blobbing. A good thing.

Originally by: jackaloped

I'm not listing this to brag at all- my killboard is nothing to brag about - but it does show I solo pvp against other pvpers. I am just posting this because I see allot of people waying in on this who obviously do not solo pvp against other pvpers.



Not bad killboard stats there, I do have easily more than twice the solo kills on my main pvp char than both your chars have combined, but I also have about twice the time in game. Nothing to brag about either, too many blob fights for my liking screwing up my average score, but you take what you can get. At the end of the day, killboards tell you possible fittings and not much more, the true story of a fight only the people that were in it know. Using killboard intel to your advantage you can rack up a perfectly fine solo record doing 1v1s without ever taking a huge risk.

baltec1
Posted - 2011.07.15 18:34:00 - [200]
 

Originally by: jackaloped


What will be the solution for people who like to solo pvp? Get more people. Well then it wouldnít be solo pvp anymore would it? So the solution is just donít solo pvp anymore. Nice.



Dont need local to go solo.

Mutnin
Amarr
Mutineers
Posted - 2011.07.15 18:38:00 - [201]
 

Edited by: Mutnin on 15/07/2011 18:39:34
Originally by: AllYourBaseAre BelongToUs
Edited by: AllYourBaseAre BelongToUs on 15/07/2011 11:05:09
Originally by: Mutnin
Meaning as I said earlier, no local is good if you just want to gank care bears, but it will suck for those of us actually looking for a fight.


That was your problem. You never actually went looking. All you did was log in and expect travelers to be already in you wspace system waiting for you like some house dog all excited to see its master when he gets home from work.

Again, another person who is afraid of the unknown and in his own words, afraid of :effort:.


Obviously you know "exactly" how I play.. Don't be such moron. I used to probe out my C2's chain of WH's when ever I wanted to PVP or get supplies in. I used to sell WH's prior so not only did I have a vested interest in looking for targets but also for empty WH's. Not to mention I was looking for a decent WH with a high sec exit for myself, so I pretty much always probed out my statics & their chains.

It takes "effort" to live in a WH, if I wasn't willing to put "effort" into my PVP I never would have tried to live in a WH. IE don't be so dumb to "assume" how someone else plays the game.

Simply put WH space was filled with people that would just sit in their POS for hours at a time. The times I actually got PVP in them while I lived there was from people coming in trying to hunt. Other than that it's always been when I happen to find a random target in some WH I find in low sec. (ie Gank-a-Bear)


Lilith Velkor
Minmatar
Heretic Army
B A N E
Posted - 2011.07.15 18:43:00 - [202]
 

Originally by: Mutnin
(...)



That has everything to do with the painfully tedious process of moving between WH systems though, and nothing to do with the absence of local.

Fun thing, I had one fight in nullsec when jumping there from a wormhole, I was convined it was still w-space and had kept local minimized.

We had a greast skirmish that lasted like 45min, and I only realized it must be nullsec when a titan warped to the field to bail out multiple carriers our small skirmish gang had bubbled.

Dr Ming
Mindworks
Posted - 2011.07.15 19:42:00 - [203]
 

Originally by: Mendolus
Originally by: Maverick2011
If they remove local, carebears will adapt to it. They will either avoid low/null entirely and go to high sec forever or they will go with fleets to do their stuff. You guys gotta understand that carebears don't want to fight and will avoid it no matter what.

Even botters will adapt to it when they start getting killed. Everyone adapt their playstyle to match what they like more.

If you think they will become easier targets you are being naive. They will just stay in high sec (like i do) in a npc corp if they must. And then you lose all chance of solo pvp unless suicide or baiting a noob.

Local gives the feeling of security to pvers. That's what keeps them in low/null areas for you to kill them. Remove that and they will leave these areas. I'm a carebear and know how every carebear thinks, even the "hardcore" carebears that venture into low/null sec or are protected by huge alliances in null sec.



I always kept my eyes on the intel channel nearly as much as local, the only thing local let me do is safe up when a random solo red popped in, which was not nearly as often as a red gang, the latter of which I knew about at least 5-10 minutes before they even reached my area.

Local channel is not nearly as important as people think it is, it's just people want that instant gratification of "OMG RED IN LOCAL RUNNNNNNNN" when they are likely to still get that in some limited fashion after the changes, i.e. a system scanner that bleeps when people with X standings are within X range of you in space, but requires either new skills, or specific ships to use.


Where do you think the vast majority of the intel in the intel channel comes from? It comes from someone seeing local spike and reporting it as they safe up.

Local is stupid.

Karash Amerius
Sutoka
Posted - 2011.07.15 19:58:00 - [204]
 

Eons ago, TomB was on record stating he despised local chat as an intel tool. This was quite a few years ago, but needless to say local was never meant to perform the function that it currently has in game.

Spurty
Caldari
V0LTA
VOLTA Corp
Posted - 2011.07.15 20:04:00 - [205]
 

Oh look it's a no local thread.

This is new and refreshing!

CCP can always, you know, try it out with a sansha invasion that is universe wide and has the added affect of disabling the local comms (seriously, remove it so none can speak, HTFU goons).

Do it for 4 weeks, look at the numbers.

Then we have the answer.

No new toys to replace it
No easy mode

Just a news item "sansha infect local comms... End of message".




Herzog Wolfhammer
Gallente
Sigma Special Tactics Group
Posted - 2011.07.15 20:24:00 - [206]
 

Best solution:

Mode 2 and Mode 4/IFF.

Well this is what we called it in the armed forces.

All aircraft have Mode 2. It's part of the system that tells air traffic control the identity of the aircraft.

Mode 4 was "Friend or Foe". A coded system, I cannot write more.

This system, in military aircraft as far as I know, could be shut off.

So, for the OP and those like him who want PVP, something like Mode 2 that transmits your identity (read: makes you appear in Local) that is optional might be a working compromise. Note that the cost of a system like this should be simple: if you forget to turn it on going into high sec, then CONCORD does not know who you are and you get into trouble.

This way, defenders who don't want offenders to get instant intel on them, whether tresspassing or stationary can shut off the transponder, and those who want their presence known can switch it on.

Hopefully this capability won't have to be purchased with Aurum.


BoBoZoBo
MGroup9
Posted - 2011.07.15 20:34:00 - [207]
 

I disagree

jackaloped
Posted - 2011.07.16 16:29:00 - [208]
 

Originally by: Lilith Velkor

Oh, I understand perfectly well (and I mean I not only understand the words, but also see the reasoning behind). You want to be sure your target is alone before engaging. This is exactly what is wrong with this game, people always want a safety net.


No I still engage people even if there are others in local. If you look at my losses you will see plenty of times others jumped in. And sometimes their jumping in makes for exciting fights. My kills are not all due to arranged duels. But if there are 40 war targets showing in local in the system that arenít usually there then no I typically wonít engage someone. Looking at your killboard experience I am sure you understand that.

Another thing you can do is try to split up blobs. If someone chases you, you can use local to see how far ahead of the blob they are. So local can tell you if someone is pulling too far ahead of their blob such that you can have a shot at killing him before the blob comes. Without local you wonít know that.

Another thing is if the blob comes in while you are fighting if you burn away from your fight by the time they align and enter warp and land their warp you may be outside of scram range. If you donít see them until they are in warp and within dscan range well you just lost time.

Even if you canít burn out. If you can get going in a direction then when they warp to you they will not warp right on top of you so you will still have more time.

So you are still doing extremely risky pvp as a solo pvper. Local just gives you more time to react to the blob. That extra time helps you deal with blobs as a solo or smaller group. Removing that time just helps the blob.


Originally by: Lilith Velkor



You analogy doesnt hold up by the way, unless you engage only when you and the target are the only people in local. For all you know, the random neutral could be his falcon alt. So nothing changes, unless you only engage when the target is the only neutral.


What you say is true but brings up another reason why local is beneficial for small gangs and solo pvpers. If I fight someone who then flys in an ecm boat or neutral remote rep ship mid fight, I adjust their standings and the person who repped them. So if I see both of them in local I know not to bother with the person. If I see only one in local I may very well bother. But if there is no local I wonít know whether the friend is there or not so I wonít bother so less pvp.


The other thing is with local you can start to know who flys together and who doesnít. No local you wonít start to learn this. Or even if you do you wonít know if those buddies are there or not. Your only resource in picking fights without local will be to form the biggest blob you can.

No local means less intel and makes pvp less based on knowledge and more based on luck. Or just more of a pain requiring even *more* scouts ie., bigger fleets. Either way it wonít be good for solo pvp.

Originally by: Lilith Velkor

Now as far as the 60 guys cloaked next to the bait goes, for all they know there could be 250 more guys cloaked waiting to pounce on them when they decloak, goes both ways. All in all, the gankers that want safety in numbers have it a lot worse, nothing changes for those that dont need it.


Well then the 60 person gang will just wait until they have 300 before they go out. Or they wonít go out at all. Those who only fight in blobs are not all of a sudden going to become less risk adverse because local goes away and therefore they see that have less information. They will just form bigger blobs or stop pvping. The risk adverse people who need the safety net of a blob will not become less risk adverse.

Looking at your killboard its clear you are a more well rounded pvper than I am. Iím mostly exclusive solo pvp nowadays because I usually canít wait for an commit to flying with a fleet. So you have to understand that while you may see some advantages to this system for some of the pvp you do, from my perspective this will basically just kill off the main reason I play eve.


Jack Tronic
Posted - 2011.07.16 16:33:00 - [209]
 

Edited by: Jack Tronic on 16/07/2011 16:34:37
Edited by: Jack Tronic on 16/07/2011 16:34:19
Originally by: Mutnin
Originally by: Omara Otawan
Edited by: Omara Otawan on 14/07/2011 19:06:53
Originally by: jackaloped

The amount of pvp per capita is extremely low in wormholes. Its not just low in total number of kills. Wormholes are by far the most peaceful places outside of high sec.


No, you just do not understand the primary issue with these figures.

Lowsec has quite a large portion of 'weekend warriors', players that go to lowsec for pvp but do not live there, i.e. they return to hisec to log off. Same goes for nullsec, many roamers leave for lowsec or hisec after they got their pvp fix.

People do not do that in wormhole space, because wormholes have this annoying tendency to spit you out in the middle of nowhere when your entry hole collapses.


Population data is skewed, simple as that. Pvp per capita is actually pretty damn high for wormholes, more so considering the major restrictions for 'roaming gang' gameplay that leads to people rarely covering more than 5 systems per day as opposed to 20+ in lowsec or 50+ for nullsec roams.

It clearly shows having local in delayed mode works, backed up by numbers (if you actually are able to interpret them right).


I lived in a WH for 3 months and I went there with the intention to PVP in WH & have random low sec exits to also pew pew. I got exactly 3 fights in my WH, before I decided it was waste of time as most of my fights ended up happening in low sec.

I had a C2 with static C2/low sec exits. It seemed like every time I check my c2 static it always had a POS with AFK people or corps full of players not logged in. Could of been time zone issues but most of the time I ended up finding action through the low sec exit instead.

I guess I could of had the 1 WH in EVE that never had visitors but I suspect most PVP in WH's happens with systems that have high sec exits and that PVP likely comes from people entering the WH from high sec to gank random people running anoms.

Meaning as I said earlier, no local is good if you just want to gank care bears, but it will suck for those of us actually looking for a fight.


Yo dawg, PVP in wspace is something I always yell at people for having misconceptions about. It doesn't always happen, chains are random(not really but close enough), there aren't thousands of carebear corps always on, and there's only 2700 wormhole systems. Now my corp itself? We abuse the fact the most common hole for C5s is nullsec(k162s and z142s :P), we literally have more nullsec kills in a week than all the big wspace alliances in wspace do in a month.

Quinn Diaz
DON'T DO IT DAD
Posted - 2011.07.16 18:02:00 - [210]
 

I for one love wormholes both when it comes to PvE and PvP.

PvE wise it's probably the most profitable you CAN do in the game (apart from being a big trading tycoon with enough isk to manipulate a market segment). After 1 year of WH carebearing I still haven't lost a single PvE ship on any of my characters (even though it has been close when a recon/cloaky t3 decloaked next to me).

For me personally it took a little while to get used to the change from living in 0.0 where I knew all the regular faces that might have been up to no good, and made sure to get out safe before they could grab me. But even with no local you CAN be very safe even in wormholes. Surely spamming d-scan every 2 seconds is a bit annoying work related injury, and I find myself doing it in low/0.0 aswell even if I'm alone in local.

Another great way is to place scouts (read mine and my friends probing alts) sitting cloaked on all outgoing WH in the system so we instantly hear if someone jumps in. This has saved me a couple of times when a cloaky ship has slipped in when I got sloppy and took too long between my d-scans. The only way that I could possibly be jumped nowadays is if a new wormhole is spawned on a remote planet in the system (aka out of d-scan range) and an entire fleet of cloakies would warp in on me. I'm not gonna go into details on how to survive this, but as I said, no one managed to kill me yet.

All this can be done in any type of space, and doing so in 0.0/low where your main entries are GATES THAT NEVER MOVE, I don't see the problem...

And as every other WH dweller I have to agree that alot of people missunderstands WH PvP. One of the reasons being (as many already stated) the accessability whichs makes it harder to roam effectively since you have to scan the gates. But also the fact that the majority of the WHs the average joe will run into will be a C1 - C3. These wormholes will not have enough stuff to do for a sizable corporation. The only time you will see large corporations in one of these is when they use it as a "weekend resort" where they pop in every now and then to grind some isk, and then leave a few days later. C5s and mainly C6s is where the big boys live, and in those you will actually see quite big fights every now and then. But this doesn't mean PvP is non existant in the lower classes, it does happend and I really enjoy it.

Wormholes are awesome period! Both because the environment rewards the aware player, and it's a place smaller groups of people can find a place of their own, without having to worry (too much) about the super alliances kicking them out the day after.


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