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Jack Tronic
Posted - 2011.07.14 03:56:00 - [61]
 

Quote:


1. Wormholes throw you 0m from the hole, if agressed you just jump back through. Camping them is really difficult compared to I don't know every other gate in the game.Removing Local won't stop you from gate camping, won't stop enemy fleets from engaging and anyone who's hunting PVE'ers bring probs anyway cause they are all in Sactums and missions.



Yo dawg, did you know you can bubble on the wormhole at zero and a perosn can never spawn outside this bubble? Totlly harder man, ****.

Canuk EroSennin
Gallente
Public Security Section Nine
Posted - 2011.07.14 04:10:00 - [62]
 

I think removing local is a mistake.....augmenting it may be a better solution. I think of local almost like a concord network that scans pilot id codes as they enter a system broadcasting that basic information to other pilots. It will effectively hurt small gang warfare as the larger blob gangs will steamroll everything in their wake with undetectable fast ships especially with the speed that probers can probe you down. Ather thing are people who use cyno and jump capital ships around for various reasons.....looking at the amount of people in a system is a preerequisite to lighting a cyno at all.

I think that either, local should stay the same....or be shown only as a number (no names or corps). Removing local will not make people stupid....just make them much more paranoid and they will move out of low sec areas or join massive blob corps for protection.

If you pass a friend you havent seen for ages in local...you'll never know anymore. Personal cyno's will drop in use significantly. Low sec and null sec will become blobs on gates just grabbing people who fly in (if you cant see em....they can blob each side of the gate and your screwed). Mission runners/plexers in 0.0 will have to pay more attention to their scanners than they will to their missions/plex.

Perhaps there should be a high slot receving array that a certain ship must equip to see a detailed local (or you see just the plain number ie. 22 in local) and in station/outpost you get that info by default.

I don't really know....but I am sure that no local will make fast probing and small ship gangs overused.....battleships are already suffering in gang warfare due to speed and hitting ability (smaller t2 hacs and t3 are prefered due to speed)

jackaloped
Posted - 2011.07.14 04:24:00 - [63]
 

Originally by: Llambda
Originally by: jackaloped
Originally by: Corina's Bodyguard
There is plenty of solo PvP (mostly unconsentual though...) in WHs and they have no local.


Actually there is not. Read the QEN that gives the facts on this. There is far less pvp in wormholes than there is in low sec or null sec per system and per capita.


And this is ENTIRELY because of the lack of local, eh?

Doesn't have anything to do with the fact that "roaming" in WHs requires you to probe out each and every system you jump into, no sir.


You have to do this because you don't have local telling you there is nobody there.

XIRUSPHERE
Gallente
Deadly Intent.
Posted - 2011.07.14 04:24:00 - [64]
 

If they pull it off nicely I see it as a boost to solo and small gang pvp. Intel should not be so easily obtained as the current system. Space should not be as certain as it is right now, it deserves to be a scarier place where you need to pay attention.

Toovhon
Posted - 2011.07.14 04:27:00 - [65]
 

Originally by: Llambda
Originally by: Toovhon
I don't see a problem with local as it stands.


The problem with local is that the only thing you have to do to get perfect intel on the pilots in a system is show up and look at the chat window.


Hardly perfect. You don't know what they're flying, fitted for or where they are in-system.

jackaloped
Posted - 2011.07.14 04:29:00 - [66]
 

Originally by: Nemesis Factor
Edited by: Nemesis Factor on 14/07/2011 03:52:09
Originally by: jackaloped

So how would it be different? Require us to warp around a system several times while spamming a button like a moron just to figure out it's empty?


Yes. That would be optimal. IMO, if your looking for a fight, acknowledge your presence in local (my vision has a WH like local). If your looking for PVE targets then you have an advantage. what's the problem? you don't want to announce your there?

Edit: From what I can see, the people who do not want it removed want to be able to find roaming gangs to fight for fun. In a WH like local you just have to say 'any gangs here' in local and wait for a response while flying through.


I see your point. I guess what you suggest is that we would announce our presence and if someone is there they would say yeah i am here meet me at the top belt and we can fight or something.

I guess I don't like to entirely arrange fights either. I like some balance. Blobs may come but I like having tools like local to avoid them.

jackaloped
Posted - 2011.07.14 04:32:00 - [67]
 

Originally by: XIRUSPHERE
If they pull it off nicely I see it as a boost to solo and small gang pvp. Intel should not be so easily obtained as the current system. Space should not be as certain as it is right now, it deserves to be a scarier place where you need to pay attention.


You still need to pay attention in solo pvp believe me. You never explained how you think removing local would help solo pvp.

XIRUSPHERE
Gallente
Deadly Intent.
Posted - 2011.07.14 04:49:00 - [68]
 

Originally by: jackaloped
Originally by: XIRUSPHERE
If they pull it off nicely I see it as a boost to solo and small gang pvp. Intel should not be so easily obtained as the current system. Space should not be as certain as it is right now, it deserves to be a scarier place where you need to pay attention.


You still need to pay attention in solo pvp believe me. You never explained how you think removing local would help solo pvp.


When solo or small gang simply entering system or making someone aware of your age and security status immediately can be enough to push people out, make them dock or safe up. By making it harder to ascertain your surroundings you increase the chance of finding targets. Sure it goes both ways you might get blobbed but that always happens, now you have a chance hopefully to think on your feet a bit more to catch people or reap rewards.

It might scare some people away at first, but give it a little time and people will get impatient and complacent.

Shigeru Potatomoto
Posted - 2011.07.14 05:09:00 - [69]
 

Edited by: Shigeru Potatomoto on 14/07/2011 05:10:43
I'm excited that they're finally doing something with local. It means CCP is actually looking at PvP beyond 0.0 like everybody's been telling them to do for years!

Also, it's good to see someone finally unspoiling the people who want to PvE in a 100% PvP game without risk.

"Waah, I can't just run away and hide when a single neut enters local. It's not fair!"

Tau Cabalander
Posted - 2011.07.14 05:10:00 - [70]
 

Maybe, open your solar system map and a dot appears for active ships?

That's a heckuva lot of info, but not as much as name/corp/alliance/standing/age.

Ai Mei
Starfish Operating Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.14 06:21:00 - [71]
 

OMG LOOK ANOTHER THREAD ABOUT LOCAL THIS IS NOW THREAD 5328095723 about this issue.


Get your panties out of a bunch people. CCP said removing local was too drastic and keeping it in is too powerful.

If they make it delayed of based off of some sov upgrade, say

lvl 1 - sov chat
lvl 2 - regional
lvl 3 - constellation
lvl 4 - delayed local
lvl 5 - instant local

then that is a comprimise. make it 1 bill per upgrade.

PS removing local would just promote small gang pvp like in wh's.

baltec1
Posted - 2011.07.14 06:46:00 - [72]
 

This is not going to stop me from going out solo, infact it would be a massive help.

Kogh Ayon
Posted - 2011.07.14 06:52:00 - [73]
 

CCP doesn't want the small gang pvp. As they said "Who would care you win a raid in WOW", what they want is "When thousands EVE players fight in a battle, traditional media...".

The small gang pvp in EVE lacks a goal to fight for and not being able to fill CCP's ambition, that's also the reason why the meeting about low sec/FW was even ignored.

Obviously, if you like small gang pvp, you better choose an other game than EVE, the company just likes "thousands-men" battles.

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2011.07.14 06:58:00 - [74]
 

Removing local allows for surprise, that is the BEST reason to remove it. It also makes BOTS vulnerable which is another reason to remove it. If people think they might be able to sneak into low sec and not be caught (aka the carebear you want so much), they will, hence more pvp.


Nemesis Factor
Caldari
Deep Core Mining Inc.
Posted - 2011.07.14 07:04:00 - [75]
 

Originally by: jackaloped
Originally by: Nemesis Factor
Edited by: Nemesis Factor on 14/07/2011 03:52:09
Originally by: jackaloped

So how would it be different? Require us to warp around a system several times while spamming a button like a moron just to figure out it's empty?


Yes. That would be optimal. IMO, if your looking for a fight, acknowledge your presence in local (my vision has a WH like local). If your looking for PVE targets then you have an advantage. what's the problem? you don't want to announce your there?

Edit: From what I can see, the people who do not want it removed want to be able to find roaming gangs to fight for fun. In a WH like local you just have to say 'any gangs here' in local and wait for a response while flying through.


I see your point. I guess what you suggest is that we would announce our presence and if someone is there they would say yeah i am here meet me at the top belt and we can fight or something.

I guess I don't like to entirely arrange fights either. I like some balance. Blobs may come but I like having tools like local to avoid them.


Well there's an idea. I would not be entirely against blobs auto-announcing their presence in a system. Something like a group of ships that number over 10 AND have a combined sig radius of some odd number would alert system inhabitants. A good way to discourage blob warfare and give small gangs and solos a local-free perk.

Sarina Berghil
Minmatar
New Zion Judge Advocate
Yulai Federation
Posted - 2011.07.14 07:09:00 - [76]
 

Originally by: jackaloped
Originally by: Llambda
Originally by: jackaloped
Originally by: Corina's Bodyguard
There is plenty of solo PvP (mostly unconsentual though...) in WHs and they have no local.


Actually there is not. Read the QEN that gives the facts on this. There is far less pvp in wormholes than there is in low sec or null sec per system and per capita.


And this is ENTIRELY because of the lack of local, eh?

Doesn't have anything to do with the fact that "roaming" in WHs requires you to probe out each and every system you jump into, no sir.


You have to do this because you don't have local telling you there is nobody there.


No if you want to jump between systems in W-space you need to scan down the 'gates'. Whether or not anyone is present is irrelevant. This does limit roaming quite a bit, since an experienced prober will be able to cover at most 3-4 systems in an hour. Unless CCP starts hiding the gates in K-Space this wont be an issue at all.

baltec1
Posted - 2011.07.14 07:16:00 - [77]
 

Originally by: Sarina Berghil


No if you want to jump between systems in W-space you need to scan down the 'gates'. Whether or not anyone is present is irrelevant. This does limit roaming quite a bit, since an experienced prober will be able to cover at most 3-4 systems in an hour. Unless CCP starts hiding the gates in K-Space this wont be an issue at all.


That and the fact I have no idea where in the universe I will end up at the end of the roam is what stops me from going into WH much for fights.

P42ALPHA
Gallente
Epidemic.
THE D0MINION
Posted - 2011.07.14 07:28:00 - [78]
 

Edited by: P42ALPHA on 14/07/2011 07:30:18
Originally by: jackaloped
Ok I know lots of people like the idea of no local. Many people like to gank pve ships and think that no local will help. But there are other forms of pvp in eve - if just barely.

Local is a very very important tool for anyone who roams solo or with a small gang.

Killing local is going to benefit blobbing tactics more than it hurts blobbing. Hence removing local is a pro blobbing move.

For those who want to argue that removing local is going to be better for pvp please consider facts. Wormholes have no local. Yet there is only a fraction of pvp in those systems as compared with null sec and low sec. This was established by ccps qens. No matter whether you consider the amount of pvp per person or per system, pvp does not happen in wormholes in anything close to what happens in null and low sec.

The fact is a few people like fitting scan probes to their ships and scanning around but most people think its nothing but a pia.

Conclusion: Ok it appears ccp must remove local to fully implement incarna. But please offer something that is as close a replacement to local as you can. Automatically let us know who is in system so we don't have to waste more time scanning around only to find the system is empty. Make it easier to find pvp, not longer.

Flame suit on.


I think these are very good points, but for no local to work imo-for the solo/small gangs. A far better map statistics, that are very accurate. And maybe give recon ships a entire system scanner, or even better-allow for a t3 cruiser build that can scan a entire system(with the dictor invul on)

But I think regardless, there would be some benifits, and some draw backs. And I think the WH dwellers should chirp in, the most with there experience on how it could maybe work for all of 0.0.

And when I say wh dwellers, I mean ppl that live there. Not ppl like me that go there from time to time.

Apollo Gabriel
Mercatoris
Etherium Cartel
Posted - 2011.07.14 07:33:00 - [79]
 

Originally by: Sarina Berghil

No if you want to jump between systems in W-space you need to scan down the 'gates'. Whether or not anyone is present is irrelevant. This does limit roaming quite a bit, since an experienced prober will be able to cover at most 3-4 systems in an hour. Unless CCP starts hiding the gates in K-Space this wont be an issue at all.


3-4 systems at most? wow ... get a new prober, that is quite slow friend. An experienced person can go MUCH faster (hint who cares about NON whs)

MaiLina KaTar
Posted - 2011.07.14 07:59:00 - [80]
 

Whatever they come up with would be better than the instant 100% intel you get through local. Don't believe it? Well then just play a couple matches of your fave stategy game with your friends with fog of war turned off completely and then understand what local actually does to 0.0 gameplay.

0.0 warfare sucks ass and local is a huge part of the reason why.

Ehdward
Caldari
Nex Exercitus
Raiden.
Posted - 2011.07.14 08:32:00 - [81]
 

Jump through wormhole. Towers and afk badgers on D-scan. Do anoms for hours. 20 Russian tengu appear on D-scan. Warp home and hide in friendly tower.


Welcome to the thrilling world of W-space.

Spookyjay
Caldari
Animosity.
Posted - 2011.07.14 08:34:00 - [82]
 

delayed local has been key to the problem for some time.

Ehdward
Caldari
Nex Exercitus
Raiden.
Posted - 2011.07.14 08:42:00 - [83]
 

Originally by: Nemesis Factor
Originally by: jackaloped
Originally by: Nemesis Factor
Edited by: Nemesis Factor on 14/07/2011 03:52:09
Originally by: jackaloped

So how would it be different? Require us to warp around a system several times while spamming a button like a moron just to figure out it's empty?


Yes. That would be optimal. IMO, if your looking for a fight, acknowledge your presence in local (my vision has a WH like local). If your looking for PVE targets then you have an advantage. what's the problem? you don't want to announce your there?

Edit: From what I can see, the people who do not want it removed want to be able to find roaming gangs to fight for fun. In a WH like local you just have to say 'any gangs here' in local and wait for a response while flying through.


I see your point. I guess what you suggest is that we would announce our presence and if someone is there they would say yeah i am here meet me at the top belt and we can fight or something.

I guess I don't like to entirely arrange fights either. I like some balance. Blobs may come but I like having tools like local to avoid them.


Well there's an idea. I would not be entirely against blobs auto-announcing their presence in a system. Something like a group of ships that number over 10 AND have a combined sig radius of some odd number would alert system inhabitants. A good way to discourage blob warfare and give small gangs and solos a local-free perk.


Or maybe they could add some sort of Listening Post sov structure when they get around to doing some sov patches? Maybe DUST mercs could disable them or something.

Miss Rabblt
Posted - 2011.07.14 08:49:00 - [84]
 

Originally by: Kirkland Langue
I don't believe you. If you were really a small scale pvper, you would recognize that the removal of local would give you pvp every 10 minutes.
[/qoute]
wrong

Originally by: Kirkland Langue
Just run a recon through 0.0 belts looking for ratters.[/qoute]
1. so you transform Eve Online to Recon Online?
2. What do you thing locals will do AFTER FIRST lost ship? They know: you are in recon. So you can simply leave this place because next hour noone will exit station or POS.

Suitonia
Gallente
Genos Occidere
HYDRA RELOADED
Posted - 2011.07.14 09:07:00 - [85]
 

People who claim it would benefit solo PvP are those people who have never taken part in such activities. Removing local makes it harder to find like-minded players who want to PvP, it makes it harder for people to mobilize and try and deal with you, and it also forces you to spend much more time scanning each system just to find a fight.

It'll benefit people who like to fly recons, or afk in pve systems and kill ratters, and that's it. For everyone else who likes to actively engage and find fast-paced PvP with other players it'll make it considerably harder and more difficult. I've already given up roaming the south and the east since there is just multiple empty systems with no-one in local, removing it will just further the problem of un-used and empty feeling space.

Honestly, if people like to sneak up on people, there are wormholes for that. And hell, CCP could easily introduce some new no local 0.0 regions if they want. As mentioned, the QEN shows a drastically reduced amount of pvp per player happening in wormholes. Please don't make EvE PVP even more slower and hard to find than it already is. (Roaming for hours without finding a single fight is something that happens way more than you might think).


baltec1
Posted - 2011.07.14 09:24:00 - [86]
 

Thanks to the current insta intel local most people run away from the small gangs I take part in. The only ones who dont run are the ones which greater numbers or supers they can hotdrop.

There is no such thing as a suprise attack at the moment.

P42ALPHA
Gallente
Epidemic.
THE D0MINION
Posted - 2011.07.14 09:25:00 - [87]
 

Originally by: Suitonia
People who claim it would benefit solo PvP are those people who have never taken part in such activities. Removing local makes it harder to find like-minded players who want to PvP, it makes it harder for people to mobilize and try and deal with you, and it also forces you to spend much more time scanning each system just to find a fight.

It'll benefit people who like to fly recons, or afk in pve systems and kill ratters, and that's it. For everyone else who likes to actively engage and find fast-paced PvP with other players it'll make it considerably harder and more difficult. I've already given up roaming the south and the east since there is just multiple empty systems with no-one in local, removing it will just further the problem of un-used and empty feeling space.

Honestly, if people like to sneak up on people, there are wormholes for that. And hell, CCP could easily introduce some new no local 0.0 regions if they want. As mentioned, the QEN shows a drastically reduced amount of pvp per player happening in wormholes. Please don't make EvE PVP even more slower and hard to find than it already is. (Roaming for hours without finding a single fight is something that happens way more than you might think).




Very nice response, and very well said.

P42ALPHA
Gallente
Epidemic.
THE D0MINION
Posted - 2011.07.14 09:29:00 - [88]
 

Originally by: baltec1
Thanks to the current insta intel local most people run away from the small gangs I take part in. The only ones who dont run are the ones which greater numbers or supers they can hotdrop.

There is no such thing as a suprise attack at the moment.


I would say dont roam in the north, or dont roam near the russian. But sadly with the extent of Macro mining, and plex. Every Alliance and there brother has a few supers they hot drop on everyone they can.

LOL the last time I got my ship ploded. Was against some Testies, and in a SB'er some cane popped me before there Super could lock me. Against a 40 man+ fleet. That Super pilot must have been raging that cane for stealing his kill. LAWL

Azure Moonlight
Atomic Core Industries and Science
Posted - 2011.07.14 09:31:00 - [89]
 

Its a sorry thing indeed that more and more changes result in casual gamers and those who want to avoid PvP being forced out of Eve.

If this goes on CCP will not only loose subscription but everyone of us will loose a universe in which variety and different peoples playstyle always was the most fun of all.

AllYourBaseAre BelongToUs
Posted - 2011.07.14 09:31:00 - [90]
 

Originally by: Suitonia
People who claim it would benefit solo PvP are those people who have never taken part in such activities. Removing local makes it harder to find like-minded players who want to PvP, it makes it harder for people to mobilize and try and deal with you, and it also forces you to spend much more time scanning each system just to find a fight.

It'll benefit people who like to fly recons, or afk in pve systems and kill ratters, and that's it. For everyone else who likes to actively engage and find fast-paced PvP with other players it'll make it considerably harder and more difficult. I've already given up roaming the south and the east since there is just multiple empty systems with no-one in local, removing it will just further the problem of un-used and empty feeling space.

Honestly, if people like to sneak up on people, there are wormholes for that. And hell, CCP could easily introduce some new no local 0.0 regions if they want. As mentioned, the QEN shows a drastically reduced amount of pvp per player happening in wormholes. Please don't make EvE PVP even more slower and hard to find than it already is. (Roaming for hours without finding a single fight is something that happens way more than you might think).




LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!

Nice troll. Local helps like minded people who want to do PvP find each other. I did not know the local channel was in fact a dating website for PvPers.

The cold hard fact is the local channel causes PvP to not happen. It cripples the odds of PvP.

LESS PVP HAPPENS BECAUSE OF LOCAL!

Local causes PvP to not happen because the very second your reported closes to anyone in the intel channel, because golly gee they only had to look at local to find out, they are all docked and the mighty FC's for your gang and theirs is asking the following question:

"Can we gank them or do we run/stay safe.??"

That's it. Every FC in the universe asks themselves that question before the first shot is fired. And guess what sport, if the answer is, "No, we can not gank them." Your precious PvP never happens. That is why you get the infamous Blue Balls treatment.

That's right, no fight. The other scenario is both sides put a quarter into the pin ball machine called:

Who Can Form the Biggest Blob?

And once they have batphoned blues, pinged on jabber, yelled in the "Wake me up in case something is happening" channel on TS and pilled everyone into one giant orgy on their comms, hours going by, guess what cup cake? They ask that damn FC question one more time.

"Can we gank them or do we run/stay safe.??"

All because with local, both sides know too damn much intel on enemy numbers. So it forces and spiraling out of control escalation in who has the biggest fleet. So please, spare me the QQ on your solo PvP story. Solo PvP is dead, it has been dead for a very long time. You, like thousands of other players who long for the pew pew, rely on local to function and you are scared. Scared of the unknown. Scared of not knowing every ounce of intel before taking that leap.

So you, like everyone else here is is scared of the unknown. GROW A SET ALREADY.


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