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Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.08.12 16:55:00 - [271]
 

Originally by: Cipher Jones
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Cipher Jones
No local does not kill PvP in wormholes. So if it kills PvP for you HTFU.

/thread.


Look at the actual statistics in the QEN of how much pvp happens in wormholes. Its far far less than low sec or null sec.






Yeah but its the highest per capita. Post the numbers.


The numbers have been posted proving your claim is false. I didn't think I would hear anything useful out of you afte that.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.12 16:57:00 - [272]
 

Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Cipher Jones
Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Cipher Jones
No local does not kill PvP in wormholes. So if it kills PvP for you HTFU.

/thread.


Look at the actual statistics in the QEN of how much pvp happens in wormholes. Its far far less than low sec or null sec.






Yeah but its the highest per capita. Post the numbers.


The numbers have been posted proving your claim is false. I didn't think I would hear anything useful out of you afte that.


I also saw numbers proving your numbers were false.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.08.12 17:04:00 - [273]
 

Originally by: Signal11th
PVP means Player Versus Player wether that be in gangs solo hunting miners or misson runners it's all the same, why should a solo pvp'r be ashamed of killing someone in a miner,hauler etc a kill is a kill, my mind set isn't easy targets but if they are there why not?

I've lived in Fountain, Tenal, Curse, Feth and 9 times out of ten when you enter a system everyone docks up. I apologise if I've somehow insulted your seemingly fragile ego by suggesting everybody docks up but in general from what "i've" seen most people do or they wait till they can get a gang together then go out.

Why exactly will it lead to blobbing (ok I'll give you blobbing on entrance pipes) but if your in a cloaky recon/s how will anyone know your even there to blob? Just seems to me that people who want a nice quite life in 0.0 don't want to actually work for their cash. Where as removing local would to me make 0.0 the dark dangerous place I was always lead to believe it was instead of being almost safer than high-sec.


I'm not saying there is anything wrong with blowing up non combat ships. I will do it if the opportunity presents itself but that is not really what I go for. I recognize people enjoy doing this and don't mean to be negative about it. I am just saying that I have a game style as well. Mainly solo pvp versus small pvp groups and other solo pvpers. This will end with no local.

How will this boost blobs? Well do you think people in very large fleets are happy that when they enter local everyone sees local spike? With no local they can be sitting cloaked witin 20 km of whatever you are about to attack in your recon. So you attack and get blobbed. What then? Well you may do this a few more times but sooner or later you will decide you better get in your own blob so you can out blob the blob.

We already have this bad cycle in eve. It leads to less meaningful fights. We don't need to promote it even more.

IGNATIUS HOOD
Amarr
Zephyr Corp
V.A.S.T.
Posted - 2011.08.12 17:14:00 - [274]
 

As a WH Carebear with teeth I'll say that PVP does happen, its not consensual, and it horribly favors the attacker as does most PVP in Eve in my opinion. In a WH you won't be attacked if the agressor doesn't think he can win. Thats pretty much how you know you're doing it right IMO. With D-scann able to track down combat sites in the WH without having deploy a probe you have almost no warning of an impending attack. As everyone is aware there is only local in a WH if you actually say something in the local channel. I'm not saying that we need r-space local in a WH quite the contrary but I would like to see some changes in scanning and tracking in a system both WH and R-space. D-scann only really benefits the WH denzien when we're working Gravs, Lads, Dars, etc becuase the T3 flying douche bag who wants to kill me actually has to deploy probes to find me then. And I'll see those on D-scann even if I can't see him.

As it stands now someone has to camp the WH to make sure we're safe and to bark a warnign when we aren't which is a boring job or they have to stand off in cloak with a PVP capable ship while others clear the combat sites and be ready to jump in to tackle and web that slippery pirate if he shows up. Both options have merit and having or not having local means nothing to either tactic.

No matter what happens though, the people who it affects will adapt to it of that I'm sure.

baltec1
Posted - 2011.08.12 17:15:00 - [275]
 

Removing local will not kill solo/small/large pvp. All it will do is make getting the intel a few seconds longer as you will warp to your safe spots and scan for targets as opposed to the insta intel we have now.

Jaangel
Posted - 2011.08.12 18:41:00 - [276]
 

Your missing the point the biggest issue with removing local is there would be no way to identify a war target in system.


baltec1
Posted - 2011.08.12 18:45:00 - [277]
 

Originally by: Jaangel
Your missing the point the biggest issue with removing local is there would be no way to identify a war target in system.




That could prove problematic for the orphanageTwisted Evil

Utsen Dari
Posted - 2011.08.12 18:47:00 - [278]
 

OP suggests that taking more time to find people in a local-less system will lead to less satisfying small gang pvp.

I hold that this is incorrect. On jumping into a system, the attacking force currently must take time to scan around and locate the target whether local exists or not. Also, attackers currently must bust out probes to find targets at sigs whether local exists or not. If local exists, defending players run for a pos/station immediately on seeing attackers in local, allowing no time for the search. If local does not exist, attackers may be able to find a target before target is aware of them. This happens all the time in wormspace.

OP, if you are actually a small gang pvper, rest assured that the removal of local would bring you a great harvest of kills that are currently unavailable to you because you cannot ever be fast enough to jump in, scan around, find someone, warp to them, and tackle them before they see local increment by 1.

Shandril silvermoon
Posted - 2011.08.12 21:26:00 - [279]
 

I'm pretty sure that removing local in null would have fare more reaching consequence then we can predict right now but I would like to see how it play out. I think that the reason why they have not removed it so far is because they did not want people to feel alone in space.

Amber Villaneous
Posted - 2011.08.13 00:25:00 - [280]
 

Local Removed Week One: Ratters, Miners, Plexers, Explorers and PVErs of all types are ruthlessly and mercilessly anhililated, yahoo we are small gang PVP(10v1) gods.

Local Removed Week Two: Why can't we small gang PVP gods find any targets?

Local Removed Week Three: Only activity in nul is moon mining and Super/Titan building.

Local Removed Week Four: High Sec war decs increase exponentially.

Local Removed Week Five: Ratters, Miners, Plexers, Explorers and PVErs of all types are ruthlessly and mercilessly anhililated, yahoo we are small gang PVP(10v1) gods.

Local Removed Week Six: Ratters, Miners, Plexers, Explorers and PVErs of all types move to NPC Corps.

Local Removed Week Seven: Why can't we small gang PVP gods find any targets?

Last Star Fighter
Posted - 2011.08.13 01:05:00 - [281]
 

^ load of bull ****

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.08.13 05:57:00 - [282]
 

Originally by: IGNATIUS HOOD

No matter what happens though, the people who it affects will adapt to it of that I'm sure.


I currently like to roam around and blow stuff up solo. It takes a long time to find any targets. Once local is removed allot of people like me will quit.

The others who remain in game will get into larger and larger gangs where their individual input means very little. Eve pvp will continue to be dumbed down to whoever has the larger blob wins.

Quixim Cynergy
Posted - 2011.08.13 06:04:00 - [283]
 

Originally by: Amber Villaneous
Local Removed Week One: Ratters, Miners, Plexers, Explorers and PVErs of all types are ruthlessly and mercilessly anhililated, yahoo we are small gang PVP(10v1) gods.

Local Removed Week Two: Why can't we small gang PVP gods find any targets?

Local Removed Week Three: Only activity in nul is moon mining and Super/Titan building.

Local Removed Week Four: High Sec war decs increase exponentially.

Local Removed Week Five: Ratters, Miners, Plexers, Explorers and PVErs of all types are ruthlessly and mercilessly anhililated, yahoo we are small gang PVP(10v1) gods.

Local Removed Week Six: Ratters, Miners, Plexers, Explorers and PVErs of all types move to NPC Corps.

Local Removed Week Seven: Why can't we small gang PVP gods find any targets?


So with local they they would be able to safely if paying attention rat, mine , do plexes and pve.
Without local they would die and move to NPC corps.

Hmmm...........

Quixim Cynergy
Posted - 2011.08.13 06:08:00 - [284]
 

Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: IGNATIUS HOOD

No matter what happens though, the people who it affects will adapt to it of that I'm sure.


I currently like to roam around and blow stuff up solo. It takes a long time to find any targets. Once local is removed allot of people like me will quit.

The others who remain in game will get into larger and larger gangs where their individual input means very little. Eve pvp will continue to be dumbed down to whoever has the larger blob wins.


How would removing local hurt you as a "solo" pvper?

Amber Villaneous
Posted - 2011.08.13 08:24:00 - [285]
 

Originally by: Quixim Cynergy
So with local they they would be able to safely if paying attention rat, mine , do plexes and pve.
Without local they would die and move to NPC corps.

Hmmm...........


Unless you think the more logical scenario would be:

Local Removed Week One: Ratters, Miners, Plexers, Explorers and PVErs of all types are ruthlessly and mercilessly anhililated, yahoo we are small gang PVP(10v1) gods.

Local Removed Week Two: Ratters, Miners, Plexers, Explorers and PVErs of all types are ruthlessly and mercilessly anhililated, yahoo we are small gang PVP(10v1) gods.

Local Removed Week Three: Ratters, Miners, Plexers, Explorers and PVErs of all types are ruthlessly and mercilessly anhililated, yahoo we are small gang PVP(10v1) gods.

Local Removed Week Four: Ratters, Miners, Plexers, Explorers and PVErs of all types are ruthlessly and mercilessly anhililated, yahoo we are small gang PVP(10v1) gods.

Local Removed Week Five: Ratters, Miners, Plexers, Explorers and PVErs of all types are ruthlessly and mercilessly anhililated, yahoo we are small gang PVP(10v1) gods.

Local Removed Week Six: Ratters, Miners, Plexers, Explorers and PVErs of all types are ruthlessly and mercilessly anhililated, yahoo we are small gang PVP(10v1) gods.

Local Removed Week Seven: Ratters, Miners, Plexers, Explorers and PVErs of all types are ruthlessly and mercilessly anhililated, yahoo we are small gang PVP(10v1) gods.


Pr1ncess Alia
Posted - 2011.08.13 08:58:00 - [286]
 

Edited by: Pr1ncess Alia on 13/08/2011 09:01:58
All things being equal:

-'Large' gangs generally wish to overwhelm
-'Small' gangs generally wish to hit and run
-'Large' and 'small' are usually relative to the size of the opposing force... however any gang with a dozen or less can be considered 'small gang warfare'

A lack of local intelligence would likely benefit the smaller force. They can have their targets and be gone before the opposing force can confirm their numerical superiority and commit their forces.

The exception to this is walking blindly into a camp. That will always benefit the larger force whether they are the camper or the traveler. But that's what scouts are for.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.08.13 09:02:00 - [287]
 

Originally by: Amber Villaneous
Unless you think the more logical scenario would be:...

Even assuming one considers shooting ratter/miners a PvP activity, you missed the obvious omni-present gate camps and roams "missing" each other constantly because they have no idea the other party is there.

Short: Local removal without scanner/intel-gathering upgrades of some sort will do more harm than good.

Pr1ncess Alia
Posted - 2011.08.13 09:09:00 - [288]
 

Edited by: Pr1ncess Alia on 13/08/2011 09:11:41
Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
Originally by: Amber Villaneous
Unless you think the more logical scenario would be:...

Even assuming one considers shooting ratter/miners a PvP activity, you missed the obvious omni-present gate camps and roams "missing" each other constantly because they have no idea the other party is there.

Short: Local removal without scanner/intel-gathering upgrades of some sort will do more harm than good.


You don't need scanner upgrades, it would just benefit the pilots that can aptly use the scan/intel tools already available to them. What specifically is it about the current tools you find inadequate? What would you suggest as an improvement to these tools?

Your leap of logic to this doing more harm to good does not follow. Gates, belts, stations, POS, all the likely points to engage an enemy still exist.

You would see a period of adaption, but that is all. I see no way you can attribute general harm to the game. The only thing I can see is:

-more realistic (if you can use that term in a scifi game)
-more beneficial to competent pilots (always good to reward skill)
-the loss of all things that come with local (intel aside) - smack, isk sellers/contract spammers.....

it would suck not knowing someone is in local with you that you haven't talked to in months/years. that is why i do like the idea of local in high sec, delayed in lowsec, only in 0.0 via upgrades

Zagdul
Gallente
Clan Shadow Wolf
Fatal Ascension
Posted - 2011.08.13 10:06:00 - [289]
 

Local is a tool I use to help me find fights.

Don't get rid of it please.


Don Kartel
Posted - 2011.08.13 10:49:00 - [290]
 

Removing local helps the game in many ways

- It stops people ratting/botting in supers
- stops people botting in everything else
- makes people work a little harder for their kills
- balances risk v's reward
- makes fleet warfare more interesting as its harder to tell how many people the oposition have
- It make 0.0 the harsh pvp enviroment its suposed to be

People don't want local removed because

- Currently half of EVE use bots
- Currently by the time you scan an anomoly everyone has warped out to safes meaning most of the time people can rat all day and you wouldn't have a chance in hell in catching them.
- This will mean isk farmers will suffer (good)
- People will have less isk
- Less isk = less people pvp'ing because high isk losses will actually mean something again

other options

- Just delay local chat for 15-30 seconds



Shaemell Buttleson
Posted - 2011.08.13 10:59:00 - [291]
 

Originally by: jackaloped
Originally by: Xercodo
haha what does low amounts of PVP in WHs have to do with this change?

WH's have low PVP cause not many ppl live there in the first place, not cause ppl cant be arsed to scan for targets....


The pvp is less in wormholes per system and per capita.

Scanning around a system for several minutes just to find out your by yourself is not fun. I don't go to wormholes because fitting a scan probe launcher to my ship sucks. I'm not the only one.




You make a good point but the fact is it is allot easier to get into null-sec in the first place because you don't need to probe and will be able to scout a system quickly just using the Dscanner.


Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.08.13 15:18:00 - [292]
 

Originally by: Pr1ncess Alia
...
-more beneficial to competent pilots (always good to reward skill)...


Yes because blobbing and pushing the dscan button like an ocd idiot takes skill.

Plus its not realistic to remove local. The gates already know not only who you are but if you engaged in combat before your aggression timer ran out. The fact that they share that intel with people in the same system who have pilots licenses makes sense.

QT McWhiskers
EdgeGamers
Situation: Normal
Posted - 2011.08.13 16:13:00 - [293]
 

God I hope this happens for 1 reason and one reason only. Null sec exits from my wormhole. You have no clue how many times I have had someone find a null sec exit and we go around and look. Usually it is a DRF or CF Ratting system where this happens, but when it does. No matter what is being flown, the ratter warps to safe and cloaks up the instant we are in local, and just stays cloaked up until we leave.

This usually makes me leave a throw away alt in system cloaked in a kestrel for lulz. You have never seen a nyx freak out faster than when a kestrel is 50k off of him.

As for the people whining... HTFU pansies. IF you cant survive without local then you are playing the wrong damn game. Its called scouts, and its called D scan. 2 things that are very easy to do. Also... wouldnt removal of local remove one source of lag? (Albeit a very small one.) There would be no more "local explosions" just "OH MY GOD!!!! WHere did that 100 man raven gang come from." But then you would realize it is just ravens and send in 5 bombers to kill them all.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.08.25 17:51:00 - [294]
 

Originally by: Ingvar Angst
Originally by: Cearain

Look at the actual statistics in the QEN of how much pvp happens in wormholes. Its far far less than low sec or null sec.






Yeah but its the highest per capita. Post the numbers.


The numbers have been posted proving your claim is false. I didn't think I would hear anything useful out of you afte that.


I also saw numbers proving your numbers were false.


I used the numbers from the QEN and gave the actual page numbers so anyone can look them up themselves. Please let me know why you think they were proven false.

Here they are again:
Here is the third quater distribution according to the 4th quater report of population (page 10) and the 3rd quarter report of kills per part of eve.http://cdn1.eveonline.com/community/QEN/QEN_Q3-2010.pdf page 9:

low sec: 6.95% of the population but accounts for 29% of all the kills
Null sec: 11.07 of the population and accounts for 51% of the kills
wh 2.42% of the population and accounts for only 4% of the kills.

So we get:
4.17 kills per pilot low sec
4.6 kills per pilot null sec
and
1.65 kills per pilot wh

Its clear that wormholes aren't the place to go for pvp.


Welsige
Gallente
Ad Vita Noctu
Test Alliance Please Ignore
Posted - 2011.08.25 18:58:00 - [295]
 

Originally by: Kirkland Langue
Edited by: Kirkland Langue on 14/07/2011 02:08:08
Originally by: jackaloped
Originally by: Kirkland Langue
haha look at the ratter who is afraid of recon gangs in 0.0


Nope I'm not a ratter. I mostly play eve for solo and small scale pvp. Its very hard to find decent pvp this way as it is I don't want to see it completely killed off.


I don't believe you. If you were really a small scale pvper, you would recognize that the removal of local would give you pvp every 10 minutes. Just run a recon through 0.0 belts looking for ratters. If they don't know you are in local, and can't see you on scan, you think they are just going to sit cloaked in a safe spot on the fear that there "might" be a recon in local? no - they will rat and spam scanner up till the point you scram them and your buddies jump into local.


EDIT - The main reason, far from the only one, this doesn't work in WH space right now is because the rats in the sites would murder the recon the instant it uncloaked. Belt rats in 0.0 aren't nearly as nasty.


I dont call killing a ratter pvp at all.

Cearain
Caldari
The IMPERIUM of LaZy NATION
Posted - 2011.08.26 15:59:00 - [296]
 

Originally by: Welsige
Originally by: Kirkland Langue
Edited by: Kirkland Langue on 14/07/2011 02:08:08
Originally by: jackaloped
Originally by: Kirkland Langue
haha look at the ratter who is afraid of recon gangs in 0.0


Nope I'm not a ratter. I mostly play eve for solo and small scale pvp. Its very hard to find decent pvp this way as it is I don't want to see it completely killed off.


I don't believe you. If you were really a small scale pvper, you would recognize that the removal of local would give you pvp every 10 minutes. Just run a recon through 0.0 belts looking for ratters. If they don't know you are in local, and can't see you on scan, you think they are just going to sit cloaked in a safe spot on the fear that there "might" be a recon in local? no - they will rat and spam scanner up till the point you scram them and your buddies jump into local.


EDIT - The main reason, far from the only one, this doesn't work in WH space right now is because the rats in the sites would murder the recon the instant it uncloaked. Belt rats in 0.0 aren't nearly as nasty.


I dont call killing a ratter pvp at all.


Well I consider it pvp but very weak pvp.

Everyone who supports removal of local is just thinking in these terms. As if every pvp engagement involves "the hunter and the hunted." And since there are so many carebears in wormholes that crowd can't seem to break out of that way of thinking.


Miss Rabblt
Posted - 2011.08.26 16:13:00 - [297]
 

Originally by: Cearain
Originally by: Welsige
I dont call killing a ratter pvp at all.

Well I consider it pvp but very weak pvp.


or it is pvp for weak?

you sure Eve needs buff of weak pvp-ers? Don't they have enough already? Wardecs, recons, afk-cloaking, insurance payouts for concorded ships...


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