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jackaloped
Posted - 2011.07.14 01:51:00 - [1]
 

Ok I know lots of people like the idea of no local. Many people like to gank pve ships and think that no local will help. But there are other forms of pvp in eve - if just barely.

Local is a very very important tool for anyone who roams solo or with a small gang.

Killing local is going to benefit blobbing tactics more than it hurts blobbing. Hence removing local is a pro blobbing move.

For those who want to argue that removing local is going to be better for pvp please consider facts. Wormholes have no local. Yet there is only a fraction of pvp in those systems as compared with null sec and low sec. This was established by ccps qens. No matter whether you consider the amount of pvp per person or per system, pvp does not happen in wormholes in anything close to what happens in null and low sec.

The fact is a few people like fitting scan probes to their ships and scanning around but most people think its nothing but a pia.

Conclusion: Ok it appears ccp must remove local to fully implement incarna. But please offer something that is as close a replacement to local as you can. Automatically let us know who is in system so we don't have to waste more time scanning around only to find the system is empty. Make it easier to find pvp, not longer.

Flame suit on.

Kirkland Langue
Posted - 2011.07.14 01:58:00 - [2]
 

haha look at the ratter who is afraid of recon gangs in 0.0

OHU812
Posted - 2011.07.14 01:59:00 - [3]
 

Edited by: OHU812 on 14/07/2011 02:01:20


You know this, I know this and, many many other people know this.

However... the ones who are making the changes only listen to the 0.0 people and CSM who is most likely in the pockets of the people of 0.0. Most don't care if the single player wants to go at it alone. All they want is people to be pushed into their big alliances and become slaves. Now get back to work you peasant.

EDIT: BTW -This has been happening for a while now. The more it happens the more it pushes the hermits away form the game. I'm a hermit and proud!

jackaloped
Posted - 2011.07.14 02:03:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Kirkland Langue
haha look at the ratter who is afraid of recon gangs in 0.0


Nope I'm not a ratter. I mostly play eve for solo and small scale pvp. Its very hard to find decent pvp this way as it is I don't want to see it completely killed off.

Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov
The Eleusinian Mystery Cult
Posted - 2011.07.14 02:05:00 - [5]
 

Edited by: Rodion Romanovich Raskolnikov on 14/07/2011 02:10:38
I've wondered (and worried) about this too.

As it currently is, I can enter a system alone, see 5 guys from the same corp in local, and then leave, knowing that I'm not going to get a remotely fair fight without the others interfering.

Without local, I foresee solo pew-pew becoming even rarer than it already is. Sigh.

Kirkland Langue
Posted - 2011.07.14 02:06:00 - [6]
 

Edited by: Kirkland Langue on 14/07/2011 02:08:08
Originally by: jackaloped
Originally by: Kirkland Langue
haha look at the ratter who is afraid of recon gangs in 0.0


Nope I'm not a ratter. I mostly play eve for solo and small scale pvp. Its very hard to find decent pvp this way as it is I don't want to see it completely killed off.


I don't believe you. If you were really a small scale pvper, you would recognize that the removal of local would give you pvp every 10 minutes. Just run a recon through 0.0 belts looking for ratters. If they don't know you are in local, and can't see you on scan, you think they are just going to sit cloaked in a safe spot on the fear that there "might" be a recon in local? no - they will rat and spam scanner up till the point you scram them and your buddies jump into local.


EDIT - The main reason, far from the only one, this doesn't work in WH space right now is because the rats in the sites would murder the recon the instant it uncloaked. Belt rats in 0.0 aren't nearly as nasty.

Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.07.14 02:07:00 - [7]
 

Originally by: jackaloped
Automatically let us know who is in system so we don't have to waste more time scanning around only to find the system is empty. Make it easier to find pvp, not longer.


It's surprising that in a PvP-focussed game, so few people actually want to PvP. Of course, I'm not particularly keen on labelling hulk-ganking as "PvP" since the hulk was never designed for PvP in the first place.

I'm still waiting for someone to come up with a better option than local.

Xercodo
Amarr
Xovoni Directorate
Posted - 2011.07.14 02:08:00 - [8]
 

haha what does low amounts of PVP in WHs have to do with this change?

WH's have low PVP cause not many ppl live there in the first place, not cause ppl cant be arsed to scan for targets

almost no one goes to WHs for the sake of PVP, they usually go in to start a sleeper farming operation and then any PVP beyond that is defense of the system

PVP also happens when two corp bump into each other when one WH's static happens to connected to an already populated system

the change to local will be a benefit to small gang PVP cause they target wont see you coming...as easily

Corina's Bodyguard
Posted - 2011.07.14 02:09:00 - [9]
 

There is plenty of solo PvP (mostly unconsentual though...) in WHs and they have no local.

Jonathan Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.14 02:13:00 - [10]
 

Sorry, but even if I grant your premise, abolishing the vast majority of ratting bots and mining bots from 0.0 (which is utterly game-breaking) has to take precedence over making it a little harder to solo PVP.

Lady Spank
Amarr
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2011.07.14 02:13:00 - [11]
 

Be right back, I'm off on an 80 jump solo roam around J space. Oh wait, that would take forever. Please get a clue what you are talking about before posting this tripe. Neutral

jackaloped
Posted - 2011.07.14 02:15:00 - [12]
 

Edited by: jackaloped on 14/07/2011 02:18:13
Originally by: Kirkland Langue
Edited by: Kirkland Langue on 14/07/2011 02:08:08
Originally by: jackaloped
Originally by: Kirkland Langue
haha look at the ratter who is afraid of recon gangs in 0.0


Nope I'm not a ratter. I mostly play eve for solo and small scale pvp. Its very hard to find decent pvp this way as it is I don't want to see it completely killed off.


I don't believe you. If you were really a small scale pvper, you would recognize that the removal of local would give you pvp every 10 minutes. ....blah blah blah


Just go into a wormhole. No local - no solo pvp. People will just spam the dscan. Your plans won't work better than just going to npc null sec or low sec and finding systems. Poeple who do solo and very small pvp know this. If you don't do solo pvp other than ganking pve ships you don't know what you are talking about.

jackaloped
Posted - 2011.07.14 02:18:00 - [13]
 

Originally by: Xercodo
haha what does low amounts of PVP in WHs have to do with this change?

WH's have low PVP cause not many ppl live there in the first place, not cause ppl cant be arsed to scan for targets....


The pvp is less in wormholes per system and per capita.

Scanning around a system for several minutes just to find out your by yourself is not fun. I don't go to wormholes because fitting a scan probe launcher to my ship sucks. I'm not the only one.


Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.14 02:20:00 - [14]
 

As a carebear, I've always wanted local. Primarily to see whether there are war targets in system (neatly color-coded and all).

I can't believe I'm saying this, but now I'd rather see local gone altogether. As a mission runner, all I really need to know is when Sisters Combat Probes are on their way. I don't even need to know who they belong to. And I have Dscan for that. No need to auto-alert the entire system as well upon my entering it :)

Removing local will at least stop all these threads by wanna-be pirates, scared sh*tless of a single cloaky jerk sitting in local. Then people can continue to play EVE the normal way: scan if you want something found, and scan if you don't want to be found. :)

jackaloped
Posted - 2011.07.14 02:20:00 - [15]
 

Originally by: Jonathan Ferguson
Sorry, but even if I grant your premise, abolishing the vast majority of ratting bots and mining bots from 0.0 (which is utterly game-breaking) has to take precedence over making it a little harder to solo PVP.


That won't happen. They will just make macros to work off of whatever new scanner system you have. Its not like this is difficult technology.

Lady Spank
Amarr
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2011.07.14 02:21:00 - [16]
 

At any rate you are crying about something that you have no idea about. They are not REMOVING local, they are changing how intel is gathered and have stated it will not be the same as delayed local such as it exists in wormholes.

jackaloped
Posted - 2011.07.14 02:23:00 - [17]
 

Originally by: Corina's Bodyguard
There is plenty of solo PvP (mostly unconsentual though...) in WHs and they have no local.


Actually there is not. Read the QEN that gives the facts on this. There is far less pvp in wormholes than there is in low sec or null sec per system and per capita.

jackaloped
Posted - 2011.07.14 02:26:00 - [18]
 

Edited by: jackaloped on 14/07/2011 02:26:25
Originally by: Lady Spank
At any rate you are crying about something that you have no idea about. They are not REMOVING local, they are changing how intel is gathered and have stated it will not be the same as delayed local such as it exists in wormholes.


I'm not crying. But I do agree that I have no idea what they intend. I am just pointing out that local is a very important tool for anyone who does solo pvp work. I think you would agree. I hope that whatever they do can basically replace that intel so eve doesn't become even blobbier than it is.

Xercodo
Amarr
Xovoni Directorate
Posted - 2011.07.14 02:26:00 - [19]
 

Originally by: jackaloped
Originally by: Xercodo
haha what does low amounts of PVP in WHs have to do with this change?

WH's have low PVP cause not many ppl live there in the first place, not cause ppl cant be arsed to scan for targets....


The pvp is less in wormholes per system and per capita.

Scanning around a system for several minutes just to find out your by yourself is not fun. I don't go to wormholes because fitting a scan probe launcher to my ship sucks. I'm not the only one.




I see you skipped my middle part that pointed out that very few people go into WH with an intent to PVP, it's almost all carebears with teeth in there

Ranka Mei
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.14 02:26:00 - [20]
 

Originally by: jackaloped
Originally by: Corina's Bodyguard
There is plenty of solo PvP (mostly unconsentual though...) in WHs and they have no local.

Actually there is not. Read the QEN that gives the facts on this. There is far less pvp in wormholes than there is in low sec or null sec per system and per capita.

That surprises me, to be honest. WH sites are at fixed locations, far as I know; so ppl basically just have to hop between a few known spots to tackle you: a little too hot for my taste. So, yeah, it surprises me PvP does not occur a a whole lot in WH space.

AllYourBaseAre BelongToUs
Posted - 2011.07.14 02:28:00 - [21]
 

Sorry to burst your bubble sunshine but here is the reality of how local affects PvP, small to large scale.

Anytime an entity has a PvP, everyone piles into the same one and sits in one system at the same POS, docked in the same station, hugging the same titan. Now while they all sit there trying to get more and more people into the same fleet, a scout(s) is sent out to the designated system or if it is a roaming gang, a jump or two ahead of the gang.

Now here is how your precious local comes in. The scout jumps in, looks at local and if nothing is there, they move on. Now if there is targets in local, they warp around looking for the targets, cloaked of course most of the time. Once the targets are found, the fleet commander determines the outcome of the fight. That's right, he sizes up the enemy and determines one of two things.

"Can we gank these people or should we run?"

That is it. Granted other meta levels come into play like spies on enemy comms to gather more information to help answer that bolded question. This is also the very same method used when your on the defending side. Size up the invaders and determine if you can gank them or should you blue ball them. Granted once in a great while a ~good fight~ will happen, but let us be honest here. That is so rare these days it does not even come close to factoring in. Another problem of knowing too much information about the enemy is that it causes forces to not engage and wait for more friendlies to join up before they leave that POS or undock from that station. Oh but wait, because your enemy, using local, sees your friends coming, they stay safe too to gather even more people. This painful cycle continues on and on till you look at your clock and realize you have been docked/safe/sitting on a titan for a couple hours.

That is what everyone knows too damn much about enemy intel. Sounds like it is smart combat but we are here to have fun, not crunch non-stop numbers trying to determine if we should undock or not. The local channel is in my opinion THE leading cause of there being nothing for small scale PvP and roams. More fights DON'T happen because of it. Your little roaming gang is reported well before you get to your destination and the targets are plenty safe before you even get to the gate that goes to that system.

Now lets take away local channel for a minute...

How effective is that blob of players sitting in that POS now? Well, without knowing where 100% of the enemy is, not effective at all. Now here comes a drastic idea for you, brace yourself...

In order to get any pew pew on, that group that has been docked/on tower for hours will just have to split up, and spread out, searching for targets. **GASP!!** I know, crazy talk right. :effort: springing up on you like that, totally unfair right?

Players will be faced with a choice, stay docked because your too damn afraid of the unknown and accomplish nothing, or let their balls drop and hit the undock button and embrace the unknown. God forbid that ratters fit for PvP in case it happens too. Maybe not solo NPC's? Have scouts watch gates? Basically a total change in how they view ratting, PvP, exploring, etc. All of the sudden, the game seems bigger.

Now I know your all worried about that whole not finding anyone with no local. Maybe, just maybe instead of one scout for hundreds of guys sitting on their ass in one giant blob, split up and have several scouts. Spends some time and effort into exploring a system actually looking. Remember, with no local, when you enter system they will not be rage warping off to get safe because they don't have local either. Oh and maybe some other ships and fittings might become viable again do to fitting the absolute biggest EHP tank possible is no longer necessary.

Unless of course you don't want any of that and doing nothing for hours on end listening to FC's rage for MOAR is your thing. Too much intel is killing PvP.

jackaloped
Posted - 2011.07.14 02:28:00 - [22]
 

Originally by: Xercodo
Originally by: jackaloped
Originally by: Xercodo
haha what does low amounts of PVP in WHs have to do with this change?

WH's have low PVP cause not many ppl live there in the first place, not cause ppl cant be arsed to scan for targets....


The pvp is less in wormholes per system and per capita.

Scanning around a system for several minutes just to find out your by yourself is not fun. I don't go to wormholes because fitting a scan probe launcher to my ship sucks. I'm not the only one.




I see you skipped my middle part that pointed out that very few people go into WH with an intent to PVP, it's almost all carebears with teeth in there



Why are carebears so happy to go there if no local encourages pvp? Answer: No local doesn't encourage pvp. It just makes people hit the dscan button like a lunatic.

MatrixSkye Mk2
Minmatar
Posted - 2011.07.14 02:29:00 - [23]
 

Originally by: Kirkland Langue
haha look at the ratter who is afraid of recon gangs in 0.0
You really and honestly believe this change is going to bring massive amounts of free kills? For the first few weeks, maybe. This is but a single small band-aid designed to cover your body rash of lust for easy kills, if even that, and you're having an orgasm about it. If CCP implements this well, it will make your fish-on-a-barrel hunt even more boring. But fortunately for us, you can't see past a couple of weeks.

Nonetheless, it is amusing see you slowly stab and twist the knife unto yourself and gloating about it. Enjoy your "buff" Wink.


Alara IonStorm
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.14 02:31:00 - [24]
 

Originally by: jackaloped
Actually there is not. Read the QEN that gives the facts on this. There is far less pvp in wormholes than there is in low sec or null sec per system and per capita.

No there is less killing per system and per capita.

1. Wormholes throw you 0m from the hole, if agressed you just jump back through. Camping them is really difficult compared to I don't know every other gate in the game.

2. You have to scan down every gate, this alone limits system population, combine that with the fact there are no stations to redock at and you can't get sizable gangs through every hole and roaming becomes more difficult even with scan probs. Finish with the inability to have a stable continous enemy because the gates move everyday and you have a recipe for not getting as many fights.

Removing Local won't stop you from gate camping, won't stop enemy fleets from engaging and anyone who's hunting PVE'ers bring probs anyway cause they are all in Sactums and missions.

stoicfaux
Gallente
Posted - 2011.07.14 02:33:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: jackaloped

For those who want to argue that removing local is going to be better for pvp please consider facts.


You're getting ahead of yourself.


http://www.eveonline.com/council/transcripts/2011/CSM_CCP_Meetings_18-20_05_2011.pdf

Quote:

Conversation then took a bit of a tangent, and Arnar mentioned that local as we know it is going to change in a Winter expansion. The CSM was taken aback by this and let fly a torrent of questions about this new “no local”. Local, as it was explained, had to change because of changes to EVE’s infrastructure needed for future Incarna development. However, it would be replaced by a new, yet-to-be-designed intelligence gathering tool. Local would not simply just “turn off” and turn into delayed mode, such as in wormhole space. It is worth a repeat – local will NOT be simply turned off and/or turned into delayed mode. Arnar and Torfi both emphasized the importance of not feeling alone in space; they reasoned that the game has fifty thousand players and that it shouldn’t feel as though you’re alone. The CSM will be kept in the loop regarding this design when more is known.



Mara Rinn
Posted - 2011.07.14 02:34:00 - [26]
 

Originally by: Xercodo
almost no one goes to WHs for the sake of PVP, they usually go in to start a sleeper farming operation and then any PVP beyond that is defense of the system


There are plenty of corps that go to WHs for the sake of PvP. They're especially interested in breaking POSes to run off with the juicy goods inside.

Just because you don't see it happening in front of you doesn't mean it's not happening.

jackaloped
Posted - 2011.07.14 02:36:00 - [27]
 

Originally by: Alara IonStorm
Originally by: jackaloped
Actually there is not. Read the QEN that gives the facts on this. There is far less pvp in wormholes than there is in low sec or null sec per system and per capita.

No there is less killing per system and per capita.

1. Wormholes throw you 0m from the hole, if agressed you just jump back through. Camping them is really difficult compared to I don't know every other gate in the game.

2. You have to scan down every gate, this alone limits system population, combine that with the fact there are no stations to redock at and you can't get sizable gangs through every hole and roaming becomes more difficult even with scan probs. Finish with the inability to have a stable continous enemy because the gates move everyday and you have a recipe for not getting as many fights.

Removing Local won't stop you from gate camping, won't stop enemy fleets from engaging and anyone who's hunting PVE'ers bring probs anyway cause they are all in Sactums and missions.



Sure this won't hurt gatecamping. Most gatecamping is a form of blobbing. Blobbing as a whole will benefit from this change.

Alara IonStorm
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.14 02:37:00 - [28]
 

Originally by: Mara Rinn
There are plenty of corps that go to WHs for the sake of PvP. They're especially interested in breaking POSes to run off with the juicy goods inside.


^ Been in one of those, boring as hell, no one ever defended there Towers.

Good Cash though when it didn't go to the War Chest.

Lady Spank
Amarr
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2011.07.14 02:38:00 - [29]
 

Originally by: Ranka Mei
That surprises me, to be honest. WH sites are at fixed locations, far as I know; so ppl basically just have to hop between a few known spots to tackle you: a little too hot for my taste. So, yeah, it surprises me PvP does not occur a a whole lot in WH space.

Another clueless person.

What with this and the OP's inability to base his concerns on reality this thread is now entirely worthless.

Pok Nibin
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.14 02:39:00 - [30]
 

Edited by: Pok Nibin on 14/07/2011 02:39:29
Originally by: OHU812However... the ones who are making the changes only listen to the 0.0 people and CSM who is most likely in the pockets of the people of 0.0. Most don't care if the single player wants to go at it alone. All they want is people to be pushed into their big alliances and become slaves. Now get back to work you peasant.[/quote

BINGO! And, whomever attempts to minimize, step over, ignore, or pooh pah this point...we know vested interest weighs more than facts with you. We got your number.

At last, a wisp of truth. Thanks for saying that.



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