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Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2011.07.13 22:37:00 - [1]
 

TL;DR

* Supercapitals require a power core to function.
* Power cores are indestructable and strictly limited to provide exclusivity.
* Supercapitals are still built like normal, but come with no PG and no drone bandwidth. They get their PG and drone bandwidth back when they find and install a power core.
* When a supercapital is destroyed the core survives and remain on the battlefield to be picked up and used by a new supercapital ship.


Preamble

When CCP created Titans they imagined a select few being built and operated during the entire life of EVE Online. Their stats were designed with this in mind. This is not true today. As a result Titans constantly need rebalancing.

The same can be said about motherships/super carriers. While probably not intended to be as rare as Titans, they were still supposed to be a lot rarer than they are today.


Suggested fix - Power Cores

Imagine that all supercapitals would need a special power core to function.
When the ship is destroyed the power core is preserved and stays on the battlefield. The core can then be incorporated in another capital ship as follows:

1) Supercapital ship gets destroyed.
2) Power core survives and ends up on the battlefield.
3) The core is too large to be moved in any way, and will stay where the original ship exploded. The powerful core will immediately show up on the star map for everyone to see and warp to.
4) A nymph* supercapital jumps in.
5) During a lengthy operation (30-60 minutes) the power core is loaded into the new ship.
6) A new supercapital is activated and ready to fight.

* What is a "nymph" supercap? See next headline!


"Nymph" supercapitals

For this suggestion to work there must be a way to load the core into a new supercap. But the core can not be allowed to be picked up and moved as it might be forgotten or hidden away in some inventory for a long time. Therefore the supercap that intend to use the new core must first exist (be buildable) and must be able to jump to the core by its own.
However this capital can not be allowed to be of any use what so ever, or the core wouldn't be needed. Enter: "nymph" supercaps. This is a supercap that is built just like today, using the same materials, with normal stats, except for powergrid and drone bandwidth that is zero. This makes the supercap entirely defenseless with no tank and no offensive capabilites; it's the precursor to a "fully grown" supercap. And once the power core is loaded it will be given it's intended powergrid and drone bandwidth.


Lore

Given the very limited number of Titan power cores (say we want to perhaps limit them to 10 in the game) significan lore can be built around them. Let each core have a name and certain bonuses. That way the Titan loading the core will inherent the bonuses, and all titans will be "personalities" with stats depending on which of the 10 cores they happen to pick up.

Example of different cores and possible bonuses:
The Divine Spear - halved reload time for super weapons
The Reaper - 100% bonus damage to normal weapons
The Life Giver - 25% bonus to all shield and armor resists
The Commander - 50% bonus to fleet support modules
The Wings of Eden - doubled jump range
and so on (five more)...

Let the core description then update each time its host ship is destroyed to include it in a list of previous "owners".

To be continued in next post...

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2011.07.13 22:40:00 - [2]
 

Continued from prevous post...


How to migrate from old Titans to new Titans?

There are essentially two ways to migrate EVE from the old supercapital system to this new supercapital system, the nice and slow way, or the hard and fast way.
* Nice and slow - immediately make all newly constructed supercaps into the new nymph type supercaps. This will make them essentially useless and the old ships have to be used. As they get killed off one by one, eventually there will be only a few left. When there are only ten Titans left, and one gets killed it will for the first time drop one of the cores and the cycle can begin.
* Hard and fast - immediately make ALL supercaps into nymph type supercaps, then randomly seed one power core per week in random spots in nullsec and let the festivities commence!


Advantages with this idea

* Supercaps in general and Titans in particular will once again be something special, highly limited, something only a select few has possession of. Something worth more than their cost in minerals. An awsome force on the battlefield, making any battle they show up in noteworthy.
* Supercaps get easier to balance towards the rest of the game (essentially they don't need to be balanced anymore due to their extreme rareness).
* Fantastic incentive for impromptu battles whenever a supercap is lost. Both teams will do their very best to manouver in a new supercap of their own to steal the dropped core, but at the same time must defend the defenseless ship while it loads the core. Not to mention that the core can be located by other interested parties at the same time.
* Self destruction of supercaps to save face is not as attractive anymore; losing a core like that essentially means you give the opposition a new supercapital.
* More often than not a supercap lost in battle will essentially feed the enemy a new supercap. Therefore needlessly dangerous manouvers with the ships will be limited. Whenever they are used it will be with full realization of what is risked, they will come with proper support and not just hotdrop people for the lulz. And an alliance that happen to end up with a lot of supercapitals can either use them and eventually "hand them over" to the enemies when they are destroyed, or not use them, making the board balanced either way.
* No active Titan will be the same as any other active Titan even if they use the same hull, because their power core will give them "personalities". Those interested can keep track on which Titan currently has which bonus stats, but for those that don't keep track of it, every Titan encounter will give unexpected results. Alliances will be known by what Titan they own, and which bonuses and capabilities it has.
* CCP can easily adjust the number of supercaps in the game with this mechanic. Turns out there are too many? Make some cores be permanently destroyed when their host ship explodes. Too few? Spawn a few at random spots in nullsec.

Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari
draketrain
Posted - 2011.07.13 23:08:00 - [3]
 

nooo i want my titan i am running out of useful skills to train

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2011.07.13 23:15:00 - [4]
 

Originally by: Laechyd Eldgorn
nooo i want my titan i am running out of useful skills to train

So essentially you say that the whole nullsec gameplay should stay messed up just because you want a titan Razz

Laechyd Eldgorn
Caldari
draketrain
Posted - 2011.07.13 23:17:00 - [5]
 

Originally by: Daedalus II
Originally by: Laechyd Eldgorn
nooo i want my titan i am running out of useful skills to train

So essentially you say that the whole nullsec gameplay should stay messed up just because you want a titan Razz


c :P

Lakuma
Posted - 2011.07.13 23:30:00 - [6]
 

One alliance wins battles over and over - gradually takes over all cores because if they won the battle, they probably hold superiority on the field to take the core.

1 or 2 things happens...

You hope - people will use their caps to fight despite chance of losing the core...

What will actually happen - just like moms, the caps will hole up and on very rare occasions actually come out. At least with super-carriers we see tons of huge ships out and about (and unbalanced, yes)

The idea is neat but I don't think it's going to fly.

Laurence Pinkitin
Posted - 2011.07.14 00:36:00 - [7]
 

im not the biggest eve fanboy but something that important should to be built not randomly spawned. It's also a punch in the junk for those that managed to play the game long enough to get into those ships. The better and simpler idea would be to make building times longer. However good luck getting sc pilots support either way.

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2011.07.14 15:27:00 - [8]
 

Originally by: Laurence Pinkitin
im not the biggest eve fanboy but something that important should to be built not randomly spawned. It's also a punch in the junk for those that managed to play the game long enough to get into those ships. The better and simpler idea would be to make building times longer. However good luck getting sc pilots support either way.

The power cores are not randomly spawned, they turn up when a supercap is destroyed. Also the supercaps themselves still needs to be built.

As for some people being butt-hurt, well yes, it's unavoidable. The long term health of nullsec can not possibly be maintained if supercaps continue to be built like this. You have to limit their numbers in some way, it has to come down from todays numbers, A LOT. How you limit them is less important, although I think my solution is pretty neat in many ways.

If you don't limit the numbers there will be an unavoidable power creep. Eventually nullsec will be nothing but titans and super carriers. How fun does that make it for a new alliance to try to stake out a claim? Today you can be lulz-dropped by 20 goon titans, do you think it'll get any better later on?

No one likes their ship to be nerfed, but sometimes it just has to be done to keep the game fun for the rest of the players. When the speed nerf hit the HACs there was a lot of complaining from those with a HAC, but of course in the end it turned out to be better for the game to nerf them. It's true what CCP said; we should note what the players do, not what they say.

Titans started out as Koenigseggs, now they're Ferraris, in another five years they'll be Folkswagens. With my suggestion we would make them Koenigseggs again.

Kusanagi Kasuga
Posted - 2011.07.14 15:39:00 - [9]
 

Edited by: Kusanagi Kasuga on 14/07/2011 15:39:36
This is a really neat idea.

Sir Drake
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.14 15:49:00 - [10]
 

While i agree that Supercapitals/Titans should be very rare ships i dont think your way of dealing with them would be "fair".
Any alliance/corp loosing a few of those cores to their opponents (allowing them to field even more SCs than they had before) would result rather soon into very onesided battles.
In the end very few ppl would control those cores and that is really worse than what we have now.

Rather make them consume fuel like a pos, no matter if their pilots are online or not.
That way the maintenance cost alone would force the numbers of active SCs/Titans down to a more exclusive level.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.07.14 16:23:00 - [11]
 

So what you are saying is prevent new players from advancing in the game. Excellent. May I take this opportunity to nener nener.

Also, this is a terribly unbalanced idea. Far worse than the current situation.

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2011.07.14 16:47:00 - [12]
 

Originally by: Sir Drake
While i agree that Supercapitals/Titans should be very rare ships i dont think your way of dealing with them would be "fair".
Any alliance/corp loosing a few of those cores to their opponents (allowing them to field even more SCs than they had before) would result rather soon into very onesided battles.
In the end very few ppl would control those cores and that is really worse than what we have now.

Rather make them consume fuel like a pos, no matter if their pilots are online or not.
That way the maintenance cost alone would force the numbers of active SCs/Titans down to a more exclusive level.


Fair, no, but nothing is fair in EVE. They took a calculated risk by fielding those supercaps, and lost.

Also there will be a sort of equilibrium; the more supercaps one side gets, the more likely they are to lose one (by providing more opportunities to get them destroyed). Sure they get a certain edge due to their supercaps, but given how limited they would be, the edge would still not be an I-win button.

Letting supercaps consume fuel has its own problems; either it's so extremely expensive that only the very largest alliances could afford it. Or it's cheap enough that any alliance could afford it, which means it doesn't limit anything anyway. Either it isn't balanced or it's toothless.

Originally by: Bagehi
So what you are saying is prevent new players from advancing in the game. Excellent. May I take this opportunity to nener nener.


Yes because as we all know, the first ship new players zoom around in is a titan, right?

Medidranda Livoga
Posted - 2011.07.14 17:02:00 - [13]
 

Smart people will simply deploy these en masse even more than today and have "empty" supercaps ready to pick up destroyed core if mishap did happen.

Eventually there will be only one group holding supercaps and nobody will ever be able to contest them no matter how successful they are otherwise.

Simplest solution would be to remove these ships from the game and reimburse skill points, isk and minerals to characters. Not that CCP would dare to do that. Laughing

Daedalus II
Helios Research
Posted - 2011.07.14 18:37:00 - [14]
 

Originally by: Medidranda Livoga
Smart people will simply deploy these en masse even more than today and have "empty" supercaps ready to pick up destroyed core if mishap did happen.

Eventually there will be only one group holding supercaps and nobody will ever be able to contest them no matter how successful they are otherwise.

Simplest solution would be to remove these ships from the game and reimburse skill points, isk and minerals to characters. Not that CCP would dare to do that. Laughing

In a large enough battle a limited amount of supercaps will have very little effect on the battle as a whole. Maybe you have an alliance with almost all supercaps in the game, then all of a sudden they end up in a battle they can't handle and two hours later they don't own any supercaps at all.

Say 50 super carriers exist in game, and 25 of them are owned by a single alliance. The alliance is powerful sure, but say it comes to a battle of 400 battleships + 25 super carriers vs 500 battleships on the other side. 500 battleships will easily kill a super carrier and I think the result of such a fight could go either way, and the fleet sizes are reasonable.

What I mean is that with a limited enough number of supercapitals it doesn't matter if a single alliance owns all of them, they can still be defeated if met with a superior force of non-supercap ships. Today though I think it could be perfectly possible for an alliance to buy a close to invinsible supercap fleet if they have enough resources.

With my suggestion, money wouldn't automatically mean superior supercap numbers. A small but skilled alliance could easily steal a couple of supercap kills and all of a sudden they would be a force to be reckoned with.

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.07.14 19:12:00 - [15]
 

Edited by: Bagehi on 14/07/2011 19:13:40
Originally by: Daedalus II
In a large enough battle a limited amount of supercaps will have very little effect on the battle as a whole. Maybe you have an alliance with almost all supercaps in the game, then all of a sudden they end up in a battle they can't handle and two hours later they don't own any supercaps at all.

Say 50 super carriers exist in game, and 25 of them are owned by a single alliance. The alliance is powerful sure, but say it comes to a battle of 400 battleships + 25 super carriers vs 500 battleships on the other side. 500 battleships will easily kill a super carrier and I think the result of such a fight could go either way, and the fleet sizes are reasonable.

Actually, no. Of the caps, supercaps are the ones able to run from a fight and an FC will sacrifice every other ship on the field to save those supers. In a fight with 400 BS + 25 scarriers v 500 BS, the scarrier side would absolutely destroy the other fleet in spectacular fashion. The way supers die are either solo supers that fall into enormous, cunning traps, or from giant lagged out battles. In the case of those battles, ships, wrecks, and pods are known to reappear after the fight even after they are dead or cruise around continuing to fight even though they are actually dead. I have a fraps of me flying an apoc around for about 10 minutes, shooting stuff, with 0% hull (it ended up dying twice according to the killmails, which is highly lulzworthy), but that's a side story. Point is, how can you be sure those things don't multiply like everything else does in those situations? How can you be sure they spawn correctly in high lag situations? The answer is that when supers die, CCP has no logs and no control over what is going on, so to put some mechanic in place that needs to work correctly is just... dumb.

Originally by: Daedalus II
What I mean is that with a limited enough number of supercapitals it doesn't matter if a single alliance owns all of them, they can still be defeated if met with a superior force of non-supercap ships. Today though I think it could be perfectly possible for an alliance to buy a close to invinsible supercap fleet if they have enough resources.

With my suggestion, money wouldn't automatically mean superior supercap numbers. A small but skilled alliance could easily steal a couple of supercap kills and all of a sudden they would be a force to be reckoned with.

Currently, PL has such a force. They also are smart about the mechanics enough to very very very rarely lose a super (and when they do, it is often returned by petition). Instead of your dream version of small alliances yoinking these supers, what will happen is they will become the hottest commodity and the blocs will go out of their way to take any supers not supported by a bloc, thus consolidating bloc power dramatically. Due to the risks suddenly involved with large fleet fights, the blocs with supers will likely all end up NAPed together against the rest of Eve and work out who owns what valuable space through diplomacy.

To sum it up, you don't seem to have a good grasp of what goes on with supers or null sec and your idea is flawed.

Xorth Adimus
Caldari
Blackwater USA Inc.
Against ALL Authorities
Posted - 2011.07.14 19:19:00 - [16]
 

No. Not going to work if introduced now just going to make a lot of people angry. You cant have that ship cause we changed the rules and you get to role play titans now... not going to work.. and will probably lead to them being unused as a 'trophy'.

1. They need to be nerfed (especially EW resistance and damage vs anything they come up against)

2. A new ship is needed specifically to kill supercaps (heavy bomber)

3. Dreads need to be resist and vs supercap damage buffed when in siege mode (drop 50 dreads.. seige .. kill 20 supercaps lose 40 dreads) dreads having always been vulnerable to cap warfare and swarms of subcaps.. game balanced.

The usual chain is broken by supercaps at the moment restricting them wont fix it ..Rock Scissors paper.. supercap.. (requires supercap killer vulnerable to subcaps to close this loop).

Kullinas
Gallente
Cosmic Industrial Complex
Posted - 2011.08.18 22:01:00 - [17]
 

Maybe add a new kind of bomb to bomb launcher of stealthbombers, a none aoe like weapon that does massive amount of dmg to a singel target in its path. That will keep the population down.
And/or make it so a SC takes 3-6 month to build and a titan takes 6-12 month.

Herping yourDerp
Posted - 2011.08.19 02:26:00 - [18]
 

OP idea wouldn't work, titans and SC would stop being used, back in the day titans would appear DD a fleet and get wtfkillmails, then cyno back to safety

King Rothgar
Autocannons Anonymous

Posted - 2011.08.19 05:52:00 - [19]
 

I support this proposal. It's incredibly painful to a lot of players, but it is a very good solution to the current problem. I would go with the fast method however, the slow way would take years and effectively close off access to those ships to anyone who doesn't already have one. The fast method kills it for everyone all at once, so it's fair even if more painful. There is a small issue however, what about the sansha SC? I can see all SC's becoming the sansha variant because the hulls themselves would be far less important than the core.

That said, I do have an idea on this, make the sansha SC actually just a faction carrier. I'd also like to see navy variants of the standard 4 carriers introduced as well. This would give older players a new shiny to compensate for the old shiny no longer available to them. Should also help out with the LP saturation we're seeing these days.

Hirana Yoshida
Behavioral Affront
Posted - 2011.08.19 10:17:00 - [20]
 

Might have worked if it was implemented alongside the ships, but now that you have 3-4k SC and 500+ Titans it won't make a lick of difference.

The only way to get proliferation under control is to make them die a lot more and make construction a lot riskier.

The former ties into the balancing of supers;
- Tweaking EHP values and other attributes.
- Segregation of Drones and Fighter/F.Bombers
- And my personal favourite, removal of immunity when away from own sovereignty*

The latter is going to depend on what happens with null in general, but having CSAA and other modules outside of POS shields would make the super-farms a very risky endeavour as all it would take is a single covert with a cyno and a swarm of BO to kill the ships in the womb.

* Helps solve supers in low-sec, solves massive NAP-fest fleets protecting blue space and adds danger to offensive campaigns .. what is not to like? Smile

mxzf
Minmatar
Shovel Bros
Posted - 2011.08.19 13:12:00 - [21]
 

Originally by: Hirana Yoshida
- And my personal favourite, removal of immunity when away from own sovereignty*


I actually like this idea a lot. It would keep supers decently strong, but it'll also keep them from being tossed around randomly just for fun.

bartos100
DARK ADAMA
Terra Axiom
Posted - 2011.08.19 13:36:00 - [22]
 

i like the idea of putting the CSAA outside the POS shields :)

would cut down on the amount of new suppers and would make it a lot harder to replace lost suppers

then when the amount is down a lot the idea of the cores looks nice but as someone said it's hard to predict what would happen with the suppers that are there

FloppieTheBanjoClown
Posted - 2011.08.19 14:45:00 - [23]
 

The power cores are an interesting idea, but the method described in the OP would ultimately lead to one alliance all the cores, or to supercapitals becoming a collector's item, too valuable to actually put into combat. If I were to go with the power core idea, I'd create a fixed number of cores seeded throughout nullsec in magnetometric sites. Those cores would be required in the blueprints of new supercapital ships. When one of the new supercaps was destroyed, one of these mag sites would spawn somewhere in nullsec. This would result in a frantic search all over space for power cores every time a supercap was destroyed.

Another idea would be to create a mechanic that would limit the number of supercapitals in a system. Like maybe the presence of their power cores (running with a theme) disrupts further cyno activity. Obviously this could be a problem when one fleet caps out the cyno limit right away, but I would say anyone willing to put that many supercaps on the line with this new system should reap the rewards of that risk.


Sarahs Sister
Posted - 2011.08.19 16:06:00 - [24]
 

How about this... make a new Galaxy which has to be accessed via several "black holes or perma wormhole" the wormholes are not big enough to take super capitals or freighter to fit through and on the other side you can not mine the minerals for a super in this new space therefore it has to be imported.

then all the people moaning can go make a new home if super free space (for a while) and have all the fun in the world and then leave the big boys to have super fun who arenít so scared of supers...?

Problem solved

Bagehi
Association of Commonwealth Enterprises
Posted - 2011.08.19 16:18:00 - [25]
 

Originally by: Sarahs Sister
How about this... make a new Galaxy which has to be accessed via several "black holes or perma wormhole" the wormholes are not big enough to take super capitals or freighter to fit through and on the other side you can not mine the minerals for a super in this new space therefore it has to be imported.

then all the people moaning can go make a new home if super free space (for a while) and have all the fun in the world and then leave the big boys to have super fun who arenít so scared of supers...?

Problem solved

... called worm hole space. Already implemented.

Lykouleon
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.19 18:07:00 - [26]
 

I really hope this was a joke...if not, I really suggest never commenting on supercaps ever again.

Magnus Orin
Minmatar
Wildly Inappropriate
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.19 21:03:00 - [27]
 

Interesting idea, but it suffers from a pretty major flaw.

In Eve, there has to always exist an opportunity for a smaller power to grow enough to challenge a larger power.

With this system, regardless if the number of power cores is 10 or 100, eventually the majority of those will end up in either one corp, one alliance, or one bloc. If they are strictly limited, they then have the absolute monopoly on super caps.

The root of the super cap problem in Eve today is not supercap proliferation, that is merely a symptom.

The problem is a viable counter. The only counter to super caps is more super caps.

Vertisce Soritenshi
SHADOW WARD
Tragedy.
Posted - 2011.08.19 21:44:00 - [28]
 

I can't say I really like the idea. It seems a little overthought and complicated for what needs to be done. Frankly if you want to make Titans more rare in the game then make them harder to build. Make them require 10 times the resources and take 5 times as long. No need to make some arbitrary mechanic revolving around a limited indestructible item just to limit the use of an already existing ship.

Want more Titans to be destroyable? Make them incapable of entering a POS's forcefield. Problem solved.

El Geo
Group 2
Posted - 2011.08.19 22:01:00 - [29]
 

Edited by: El Geo on 19/08/2011 22:01:43
Originally by: Vertisce Soritenshi


Want more Titans to be destroyable? Make them incapable of entering a POS's forcefield. Problem solved.


+1

chanteel
Gallente
Posted - 2011.08.21 23:32:00 - [30]
 

I can't pinpoint it but this post made me think of anime debuting some gundam. lol


I like the idea +1


P.S. What will be done about the 500 vs 500 average caps? They may begin to dominate (lowsec) and null; maybe a solution would be to double their cost in material?


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