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blankseplocked Nerfing wormholes again??? Really CCP?
 
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Jon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.27 06:06:00 - [151]
 

The interview goes to **** after the first 20 minutes or so. For example, White Tree repeats the lie that Soundwave didn't agree with what he wrote in Fearless, when Touborg himself has already debunked that lie. Of course the 2 hosts are too busy giggling to bother correcting him.

John Turbefield earns his hero stripes a second time. He is allegedly responsible for all of White Tree's travel mishaps and the subsequent flood of tears that followed.

Jon Ferguson
JC Ferguson and Son Ltd
Ferguson Alliance
Posted - 2011.07.27 09:12:00 - [152]
 

The most annoying/illogical bit in the CCP/CSM (and specifically white tree's) argument is this insane jihad against ninja miners.

I think it's COOL that new players can get in a covetor, scan down a WH, and risking life and limb grab a few chunks of arkonor. Some days they get away with it, some days they don't. Either way it's high-risk, moderate-reward behavior that gives new hi-sec players a taste of danger and of what EVE's all about without forcing them to be someone's ***** in nullsec or to fall prey to the griefers in low-sec. The degree of stupidity that CCP, CSM and White Tree specifically must have to not 'get' this is just ... beyond words.

I was a couple of weeks old when I jumped in a velator, headed out to 0.0, looking for some 'rare ore' to mine with my civilian miner. I got popped a couple of times and podded and the one trip that I made it back, I think the ore was worth ~ 50k ISK, maybe less. That risk/reward balance was out of whack and I never went back. With WH, it's different. It's a hassle to scan down, and it's risky as hell, but you're not likely to hit a gate camp and even though the amounts are negligible, it's ARKONOR, dammit. Only a complete ****** who doesn't get EVE would want to nerf that. (Or a committee of ******s, in this case.)

And again, my next m^3 of arkonor mined in a WH will be my first. Not the point.

Oosel
The Riot Formation
KRYSIS.
Posted - 2011.07.27 10:32:00 - [153]
 

Edited by: Oosel on 27/07/2011 10:33:01
Originally by: Jon Ferguson
The most annoying/illogical bit in the CCP/CSM (and specifically white tree's) argument is this insane jihad against ninja miners.

I think it's COOL that new players can get in a covetor, scan down a WH, and risking life and limb grab a few chunks of arkonor. Some days they get away with it, some days they don't. Either way it's high-risk, moderate-reward behavior that gives new hi-sec players a taste of danger and of what EVE's all about without forcing them to be someone's ***** in nullsec or to fall prey to the griefers in low-sec. The degree of stupidity that CCP, CSM and White Tree specifically must have to not 'get' this is just ... beyond words.

I was a couple of weeks old when I jumped in a velator, headed out to 0.0, looking for some 'rare ore' to mine with my civilian miner. I got popped a couple of times and podded and the one trip that I made it back, I think the ore was worth ~ 50k ISK, maybe less. That risk/reward balance was out of whack and I never went back. With WH, it's different. It's a hassle to scan down, and it's risky as hell, but you're not likely to hit a gate camp and even though the amounts are negligible, it's ARKONOR, dammit. Only a complete ****** who doesn't get EVE would want to nerf that. (Or a committee of ******s, in this case.)

And again, my next m^3 of arkonor mined in a WH will be my first. Not the point.


i couldnt have worded it any better even if i spent the next 3 weeks trying to. you are spot on with thisWink

Obax Bannon
Caldari
Fidelis Technologies
Posted - 2011.07.27 11:32:00 - [154]
 

Edited by: Obax Bannon on 27/07/2011 11:32:37
Might want to check this thread about the same subject.

http://www.eveonline.com/ingameboard.asp?a=topic&threadID=1552332

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.07.27 11:50:00 - [155]
 

Edited by: Ingvar Angst on 27/07/2011 11:51:40
Originally by: Takashi Kaeda
W-space mining certainly looks like it could be increasing. I don't think that's what wormholes were intended to be, and CCP is looking into fixing that. If you need a carrier in your C3 you're doing it wrong anyways.


Who really gives a fried rat's ass what wormholes were originally intended to be? Was null intended to be run by a few mega-corps controlling massive bot-fleets? Probably not, but it is what it is.

Wormholes have evolved into their own meta-game now. They're the frontier of Eve, and that frontier is being colonized. It's time to stop trying to crush the colonies and accept that something perhaps unintended but definitely wonderful and a benefit to the game as a whole has happened. Let the null-bunnies keep their local, their fleet protected asteroid belts and mega-bot operations. Fine, we don't give a spare ****. But nerfing our frontier so those mega-alliances can be granted complete control of an entire resource?

It's simple. If they want full control of ABC ores then it's time they let their balls drop and move into wormholes and stake their claims.

They will find Anoikis does not approve.

Khaed Duhn
Minmatar
The Kairos Syndicate
Posted - 2011.07.27 12:48:00 - [156]
 

Originally by: Sealiah


There isn't any WH or high-sec powerblock uniting enough people to actually chose a member of the CSM. Even if they have enough people, they don't have the kind of military rules forcing members to vote as the CEO says.

I'd actually love to candidate just as a general representative but it's practically impossible to win without a big powerblock supporting you.




Why don't we try to create one then ? I don't mean in the traditional sense of a huge sprawling in game alliance, which is not something I am aware that wormhole dwellers want. But simply a forum where we can share our thoughts, vote on them and then put these forward to CCP so we can actually have a voice.

Just an idea.

JC Ferguson
Federal Navy Academy
Posted - 2011.07.28 22:26:00 - [157]
 

Originally by: Khaed Duhn
Originally by: Sealiah


There isn't any WH or high-sec powerblock uniting enough people to actually chose a member of the CSM. Even if they have enough people, they don't have the kind of military rules forcing members to vote as the CEO says.

I'd actually love to candidate just as a general representative but it's practically impossible to win without a big powerblock supporting you.




Why don't we try to create one then ? I don't mean in the traditional sense of a huge sprawling in game alliance, which is not something I am aware that wormhole dwellers want. But simply a forum where we can share our thoughts, vote on them and then put these forward to CCP so we can actually have a voice.

Just an idea.


If you want a WH voting thingamabob Lost in EVE already set one up here.

The problem is, CCP doesn't care what its customers want. It cares about what we do, not about what we say. Mynxee's low-sec initiative went nowhere. The faction warfare guys have been stonewalled and left at the altar for YEARS. CCP is not a company that takes somebody else's good idea and runs with it. It's an Icelandic thing.

Selinate
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.28 23:23:00 - [158]
 

There can't be that many ****ing people mining in C1 through C3 wormholes. I've never seen a single mining vessel on my probes EVER.

Lord Viziam
GunStars
Posted - 2011.07.28 23:35:00 - [159]
 

Originally by: Selinate
There can't be that many ****ing people mining in C1 through C3 wormholes. I've never seen a single mining vessel on my probes EVER.


That's because anybody who knows anything about wormholes know how to mine with practically 0 (zero) chance of someone crashing the party.

Generals4
Caldari
Posted - 2011.07.28 23:41:00 - [160]
 

Originally by: Selinate
There can't be that many ****ing people mining in C1 through C3 wormholes. I've never seen a single mining vessel on my probes EVER.


I've seen one, he got blown up by an SB (not me unfortunately :( )
I myself also mined a bit when i was in WH's.
Sure it's not as profitable as Sleeper sites or good ladar sites but heh, i like diversification. And i can understand why WH dwellers are ****ed about this.
If anything:
Remove ABC from nullsec, would reduce the amount of bots by quite a lot.

Selinate
Amarr
Posted - 2011.07.28 23:43:00 - [161]
 

Originally by: Lord Viziam
Originally by: Selinate
There can't be that many ****ing people mining in C1 through C3 wormholes. I've never seen a single mining vessel on my probes EVER.


That's because anybody who knows anything about wormholes know how to mine with practically 0 (zero) chance of someone crashing the party.


Explain how you do this. I would very much like to hear it.

Ting Mei
Gallente
Federal Institute Service
Posted - 2011.07.29 00:40:00 - [162]
 

For me, removing ABC is nonissue.

There is no asteroid belts in Unknow Space, i'm living in a C3 with a D845 (HighSec Static)

I have to wait a gravimetric to pop, and beleive me, is maybe twice a month. There is each time ONE roid of ABC, and the normal one, no dense or rich roid. The size of the roid is generaly ridiculously little.

To exit the ore by the WH, is just a pain in the ass and refining it with a refining array is just a 75% waste ...

Generaly i have always a gate to a C4 and sometimes even C5 and C6, and beleive me, there is people passing throught. I see everyday Combat and Scanner probe, is not that safe as some people (generaly not living in Unknown Space) said ...

In NullSec, there is complete belts of ABC, with station to refine, and Alliance logistique to haul ... To say is easier in Unknown Space than in NullSec is nosense. Unknown space represents a very infime part of ABC part ...

Lady Spank
Amarr
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2011.07.29 01:23:00 - [163]
 

Originally by: Ting Mei
In NullSec, there is complete belts of ABC, with conquerablestation to refine, and Alliance logistique which can be overpowered easily to haul ... To say is easier in Unknown Space than in NullSec is nosense. Unknown space represents a very safe part of space ...

Aside from the grammatical and blatant spelling errors, I fixed that for you.

Mr Kidd
Posted - 2011.07.29 02:20:00 - [164]
 

Edited by: Mr Kidd on 29/07/2011 02:36:49
Edited by: Mr Kidd on 29/07/2011 02:20:57
Originally by: Selinate
Originally by: Lord Viziam
Originally by: Selinate
There can't be that many ****ing people mining in C1 through C3 wormholes. I've never seen a single mining vessel on my probes EVER.


That's because anybody who knows anything about wormholes know how to mine with practically 0 (zero) chance of someone crashing the party.


Explain how you do this. I would very much like to hear it.


Grav sites require probes to be found. Dscan detects probes. Assuming noone came in while you weren't looking and probed down every sig, then as long as you're paying attention it's completely safe to mine in w-space.

On the other hand, there's really no way to tell if someone didn't already come in and recon all your sigs.

However, the likelihood that someone would do such a thing AND wait around for the chance to kill a miner is pretty low. I can count on my fingers the number of times I've come into a hole and found miners mining. I probe wormholes every day and have been doing so for a long time.

A best practices scenerio is to close all open wh's in your system before you decide to mine. That way, your neighbor who may have probed out all your sigs has no way to come back in and check on you later.

This whole "remove" ABC from w-space is BS, imo. There aren't large ops of miners out there any in numbers to be significant. There's aren't virtually endless supplies of ABC in w-space like there are in null. There aren't bots out there mining w-space 23/7 like null. To move the same amount of minerals that a single null freighter can move would virtually take years for a w-space pilot to move given the mass limitations. I did the math on this in another thread where I scaled up the amount of ore a w-space pilot would move out compared to the amount of minerals a null freighter can move out. It's pretty indicative of the lack of impact w-space has on the mineral market.

This is nothing more than epeen from nullsec. And that CCP would support it implies something I would really not like to think about.


Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2011.07.29 02:21:00 - [165]
 

Originally by: Lady Spank


Originally by: Ting Mei
In NullSec, there is complete belts of ABC, with conquerablestation to refine, and Alliance logistique which can be overpowered easily to haul...

Aside from the grammatical and blatant spelling errors, I fixed that for you.

Rolling Eyes
And what, pray tell, does that have to do with WH's?ugh

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2011.07.29 02:30:00 - [166]
 

Originally by: Mr Kidd

Grav sites require probes to be found. D-scan detects probes. Assuming no-one came in while you weren't looking and probed down every sig, then as long as you're paying attention it's completely safe to mine in w-space.


Your static will always spawn again. If anyone finds it from the other side, they can always just come right in. We kill people who believe like you do all the time... Twisted EvilYARRRR!!Twisted Evil

Lady Spank
Amarr
In Praise Of Shadows
Posted - 2011.07.29 02:32:00 - [167]
 

Originally by: Asuri Kinnes
Originally by: Lady Spank


Originally by: Ting Mei
In NullSec, there is complete belts of ABC, with conquerablestation to refine, and Alliance logistique which can be overpowered easily to haul...

Aside from the grammatical and blatant spelling errors, I fixed that for you.

Rolling Eyes
And what, pray tell, does that have to do with WH's?ugh


They aren't easily conquerable and the occupying corporation/entity have the advantage.

Mr Kidd
Posted - 2011.07.29 02:35:00 - [168]
 

Edited by: Mr Kidd on 29/07/2011 02:44:16
Edited by: Mr Kidd on 29/07/2011 02:42:53
Originally by: Asuri Kinnes
Originally by: Mr Kidd

Grav sites require probes to be found. D-scan detects probes. Assuming no-one came in while you weren't looking and probed down every sig, then as long as you're paying attention it's completely safe to mine in w-space.


Your static will always spawn again. If anyone finds it from the other side, they can always just come right in. We kill people who believe like you do all the time... Twisted EvilYARRRR!!Twisted Evil


Lets assume I know what I'm doing, Mmmkay?

Yes, you get a new static, to a completely new place with new people who presumably haven't had the opportunity to probe out your system in it's entirety.

In any case, someone from your side has to warp to your new static in order for it to OPEN. Learn how to manage your wh's, alright? Therefore, you can probe out your new static, NOT warp to it and it doesn't open. And yes I realize someone else can open a hole to your system come in and do the same but you're going to see their probes on your dscan while you're mining your ore. See, it's almost completely safe. Please forgive me if I don't go through every possible scenario of why it is/isn't.

If you really want to live life on the edge learn how to tell how close their probes are to you before they can pinpoint your location. That's always fun for a few prober tears.

Mrs Management
Limited Liabilty
Posted - 2011.08.02 14:56:00 - [169]
 

Edited by: Mrs Management on 02/08/2011 14:57:34
CSM ..... Proof or STFU


Nothing but a bunch of CCP puppets that want all the cherry pie for their 0.0 power houses.

Fix some real problems you *********

Jint Hikaru
OffWorld Exploration Inc
Posted - 2011.08.02 15:10:00 - [170]
 

SOunds to me like the 0.0ers want everythign for themselves and how dare the small corps and independant industrialists get any access to ABC themselves.

I used to take the risk and fill up an Orca with ABC in low end wormholes once in a while.... Hardly breaking the game, but it was the only chance I could get to do so.

0.0 only, no way for anyone like me to get the stuff.

Caldari Citizen20090217
Posted - 2011.08.02 15:52:00 - [171]
 

Originally by: Ingvar Angst
It's simple. If they want full control of ABC ores then it's time they let their balls drop and move into wormholes and stake their claims.

They will find Anoikis does not approve.


I lol'd. Just how badly would 0.0 fleet 'pvpers' fare in an environment with no local, no supercap hotdrops and the inability to employ blob > skill methods?


0.0:
local
no need to d-scan every 2 seconds
Blues all around
comprehensive intel channels
instant mobility for supercap blobs (cynos)
easy isk thru belt ratting and anomalies
no masslimits on gates
no random gates appear in system froma hostile region
easymode logistics (lol cyno nets and jump freighters)
100% refine rate
so safe a machine can do it 23/7

wh space:
no blues next door
no easymode intel
no supers/hotdrops
masslimits
random 162 can appear at any time. (for the 0.0 minded, this is the same as random stealth gates to hostile alliance HQ turning up without any notification)
75% refine rate
unreliable, and much harder generally logistics (no JF here)
lol @ botting in wh space.

Counterproposal to CSM in light of the above: remove ABC from all nullsec as the risk vs reward is out of whack and it is killing the economy. Twisted Evil

Takamori Maruyama
Amarr
Red Federation
RvB - RED Federation
Posted - 2011.08.02 15:56:00 - [172]
 

Nerf null sec and expand the WH concept.
That would give EVE a real competition.

Thomas Turnpoint
Posted - 2011.08.02 16:09:00 - [173]
 

If the CSM no longer represents the interests of the players outside their alliance leaders, then why are they allowed to continue existing?
They have become an act. There to lull the players into thinking that they have some control over where things go, when in reality, they don't.

How about instead of taking ABC's out of wormholes, we take CSM's out of null-sec.

Ingvar Angst
Amarr
Nasty Pope Holding Corp
Talocan United
Posted - 2011.08.02 17:02:00 - [174]
 

Originally by: Mr Kidd
Lets assume I know what I'm doing, Mmmkay?

Yes, you get a new static, to a completely new place with new people who presumably haven't had the opportunity to probe out your system in it's entirety.

In any case, someone from your side has to warp to your new static in order for it to OPEN. Learn how to manage your wh's, alright? Therefore, you can probe out your new static, NOT warp to it and it doesn't open. And yes I realize someone else can open a hole to your system come in and do the same but you're going to see their probes on your dscan while you're mining your ore. See, it's almost completely safe. Please forgive me if I don't go through every possible scenario of why it is/isn't.

If you really want to live life on the edge learn how to tell how close their probes are to you before they can pinpoint your location. That's always fun for a few prober tears.


I'll grant you that you sound like you know what you're doing as a resident. It is somewhat possible to mine in wormholes almost as safely as the null-bots do. However, that's not the issue in question... there's the false claim that non-residents are going into wormholes, mining and leaving with these vast deposits of ore that are changing the market. You and I both know that's a load of crap. You don't go into someone else's hole and expect to mine in anything even remotely resembling safety. Besides... how much ore is in holes in the first place? I haven't seen a grav spawn in over a week now. Null-bunnies have it easy and want it easier. It ain't right.

Asuri Kinnes
Caldari
Adhocracy Incorporated
Posted - 2011.08.02 17:28:00 - [175]
 

Edited by: Asuri Kinnes on 02/08/2011 17:37:53
Originally by: Lady Spank
Originally by: Ting Mei
In NullSec, there is complete belts of ABC, with conquerablestation to refine, and Alliance logistique which can be overpowered easily to haul ... To say is easier in Unknown Space than in NullSec is nosense. Unknown space represents a very safe part of space ...

Aside from the grammatical and blatant spelling errors, I fixed that for you.

Still no *stations* in WH's, only POS's (which can and are removed, frequently), 75% refine @ best, to get 100% refine means moving through uncontrolled territory at least once, maybe several times. Logistics in WH's can be disrupted at least as easily (and tbqh - I don't see reports of any alliances dropping because they couldn't get enough drakes/missiles from Jita, or Mods for their supercaps - it's usually fail-cascade or treachery).

As for the occupying power having an advantage? They almost always do in Eve... Rolling Eyes

Last but not least: Belts > Grav sites (belts are constant, consistent and static), Grav sites are erratic / not consistent / not static. Not only *that*, but Grav sites also spawn in k-space 0.0...

So, how is 0.0 not *better* for a miner? (Other than the nature of the occupying alliances?).


Originally by: Mr Kidd
Edited by: Mr Kidd on 29/07/2011 02:44:16
Edited by: Mr Kidd on 29/07/2011 02:42:53
Originally by: Asuri Kinnes
Originally by: Mr Kidd

Grav sites require probes to be found. D-scan detects probes. Assuming no-one came in while you weren't looking and probed down every sig, then as long as you're paying attention it's completely safe to mine in w-space.


Your static will always spawn again. If anyone finds it from the other side, they can always just come right in. We kill people who believe like you do all the time... Twisted EvilYARRRR!!Twisted Evil


Lets assume I know what I'm doing, Mmmkay?

Yes, you get a new static, to a completely new place with new people who presumably haven't had the opportunity to probe out your system in it's entirety.

In any case, someone from your side has to warp to your new static in order for it to OPEN. Learn how to manage your wh's, alright? Therefore, you can probe out your new static, NOT warp to it and it doesn't open. And yes I realize someone else can open a hole to your system come in and do the same but you're going to see their probes on your dscan while you're mining your ore. See, it's almost completely safe. Please forgive me if I don't go through every possible scenario of why it is/isn't.

If you really want to live life on the edge learn how to tell how close their probes are to you before they can pinpoint your location. That's always fun for a few prober tears.


Wow... Yeah, I phrased that wrong, you got me... Rolling EyesI was tired. A new dynamic wh can open at any time. Same still applies though. If "the enemy" knows what they are doing, you have 10 - 15 seconds warning. (d-scan your general direction, get a range gate, drop probes out of d-scan range, probe/recall/warp - all while cloaked). If you don't see those probes in the 10-15 seconds they are visible - your ganked. At least in null-sec you can see if *anyone* ever comes in who's not *supposed* to be there.

Sekhmet Neteret
Caldari
Posted - 2011.08.02 17:40:00 - [176]
 

Originally by: Ai Mei
Edited by: Ai Mei on 13/07/2011 22:56:33
How exactly are wh's nerfed?

most of the time they only have 1-2 entrances per day, so easy to watch and defend.

You cant put super caps in them.
You can farm all of your pi in them with 0.0 resource nodes.
you dont have local.
most of the time they are quiet.
no real drama.

and oh wait I saw that the op was Ferguson, who is a fail troll, fail poster, and just a failure of the eve community.

Hey jonny rather than complain, just quit the #[email protected]#% game already and take your whining with you.


Main nerf i noticed was the lack of the ECM bonus from some WHs, which allowed a widow/rook/falcon to permajam sleepers, why remove a bonus, instead of fix the bug in the code that cause the exploit?

Taipion
Caldari
Operations Control
United Pod Service
Posted - 2011.08.02 19:14:00 - [177]
 

It is just incredible what people post here, and how confidently they show how they dont have the slightest clue...



Have been living in a C5 for quite some time:

- have a Rorqual to compress instead of refine at 75%, whoever does refine in a WH is just incredibly stupid

- have a Freighter to haul, know how to use WHs, theres never a problem with that, allways a exit, no proper exit? => make a new one

- been mining like 3 days in 2 weeks, for there is no fresh belt every day!

- kill sleepers, its more money than mining

(if you mine in lower lvl WHs for a living, you are doing it wrong)



Been living in 0.0 for quite a while:

- having ABC with the system upgrades in EVERY FREAKING system, even -0.1, that is just wrong

- allways have some ABC and ****loads of the next best ores

- incredibly safe

- nerfed combat sites, but not the ore? => Why is CCP supporting the RMT/BOTTING so much?!


After all, the only thing that is wrong, is that there is ABC in every 0.0 system with upgrades, that should be fixed, and not WHs!

And, there should be some way to mine a good amount of trit and other low end mins in 0.0, that would be nice and not game breaking.
I just donīt like to "compress" it in modules every time when I need another 900m trit in deep null...

This just shows how much CCP loves the RMT/Botting...

Hidden Fremen
Caldari
Offworld Miners and Fabricators Guild
Posted - 2011.08.30 19:47:00 - [178]
 

Originally by: Mr Kidd
Edited by: Mr Kidd on 29/07/2011 02:44:16
Edited by: Mr Kidd on 29/07/2011 02:42:53
Originally by: Asuri Kinnes
Originally by: Mr Kidd

Grav sites require probes to be found. D-scan detects probes. Assuming no-one came in while you weren't looking and probed down every sig, then as long as you're paying attention it's completely safe to mine in w-space.


Your static will always spawn again. If anyone finds it from the other side, they can always just come right in. We kill people who believe like you do all the time... Twisted EvilYARRRR!!Twisted Evil


Lets assume I know what I'm doing, Mmmkay?

Yes, you get a new static, to a completely new place with new people who presumably haven't had the opportunity to probe out your system in it's entirety.

In any case, someone from your side has to warp to your new static in order for it to OPEN. Learn how to manage your wh's, alright? Therefore, you can probe out your new static, NOT warp to it and it doesn't open. And yes I realize someone else can open a hole to your system come in and do the same but you're going to see their probes on your dscan while you're mining your ore. See, it's almost completely safe. Please forgive me if I don't go through every possible scenario of why it is/isn't.

If you really want to live life on the edge learn how to tell how close their probes are to you before they can pinpoint your location. That's always fun for a few prober tears.


"Pinning" a sig (scanning it to 100%) sufficiently opens it on the other side. No need to warp to it. Pinning your mag / grav / radar / ladar sites will trigger their timers with a need to warp to them, either. My 2 ISK.

Feligast
Minmatar
GoonWaffe
Goonswarm Federation
Posted - 2011.08.30 20:07:00 - [179]
 

seriously, LOL @ anyone who mines.


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